Overseas Patient Admitted to Public Hospital Due to Hip Fracture with No Insurance

missyy on 14/10/2018 - 10:25

Hi All,

I need advice for my situation, i try to summarize with this short long story below, any suggestion or information is appreciated
My dad (70 yrs old) come for visiting (visitor visa) and don't have travel insurance (we learnt our lesson now) He had a fall in shopping centre and end up with hip fracture
We go to emergency at public hospital (on saturday) after xray they found out my dad have hip fracture which need operation, at first we reluctant to do surgeries due to cost but when we meet the orthopedic surgeon, he say not to worry about cost as hospital can cover it on compasionate ground, we agreed on the surgery on assumption that all cost will be covered by the hospital and
The site manager (we meet later on) say they have obligation and duty of care for my dad as he come to their emergency department, so they can't discharge my dad without the surgery, she said not to worry about the cost and everything will work out and the finance will contact us on monday
On Monday we meet "finance" which turn out is from Ausheath (i think its third party used to deal finance with overseas patient) and they have zero information to us, only insisted we make some down payment for room cost
We stay in hospital for 5 days without hospital ever explain or being transparant about hospital cost to us and everytime we asked (doctor or nurse) they said finance will contact us (which never happen) even the day i discharge, hospital can't give us any information about cost
A week later they sent us bill on room cost and few xray test and they say they still need another 6-8 weeks to figure out total cost to us (maybe regarding the surgery)
Anybody have similar situation or worked on hospital can provide us any information

Health & Beauty

Comments

      • smpantsonfire on 15/10/2018 - 10:59
        +4

        I don't think that's what they were told. Why would anyone open themselvesup for liability like that. Especially not hospital staff.

        • SlickMick on 15/10/2018 - 11:09
          +3

          Yeah, it might be the impression (wishful thinking) that they thought they heard, but I think it will greatly contradict what is in writing and signed

          • Gravy on 15/10/2018 - 21:03
            +1

            @SlickMick: Wouldn't be the first time that verbal information conflicted with a written contract. Still sounds like they have been misled by staff though.

        • Gravy on 15/10/2018 - 20:59
          +1

          You would need to quiz the Op further on whether their understanding was clouded, I'm just going by their word. The fact that "compassionate ground" was mentioned leads me to believe that something was said to them to this effect, that's not a term that is easily misheard. Op may have confused "can cover it" with "may cover it" but once again they were told "not to worry about cost" so I believe they were given false info.

          Its quite possible the surgeon believed what he was saying regarding no fee but did not give the Op sufficient further information as to what to do next to ensure that scenario played out.

  • Fiximol on 14/10/2018 - 11:36
    +32

    There are several things to note here:

    1) Doctors and nurses in the public system really do not care about your ability to pay; it's why we pay them by salary and not fee for service (like private practitioners). Their job is to get you better; they are not trying to wrangle money out of you. Your post sounds like you make the doctors and nurses (who pretty much have ZERO idea about actual costs to you anyway) are deliberately stonewalling you.
    2) I am not sure why you expect the hospital to cover all costs. This seems an unreasonable assumption under any circumstance.
    3) I can't comment on the actual costs given I don't know what procedures he has had, but HCF puts the average cost for hip replacement to be around $28,000, which is reasonably in line with the National Hospital Costs (~$20k for minor and $30k for major hip replacements in 2015-2016).
    4) It takes time for them to get the costs out to you for several reasons: they have to code every hospital patient (and not prioritise your dad) since, like I said, they are not a commercial operation or the full costs might include any follow up care which are yet to occur.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 13:46
      -1
      1. the one have zero idea i mention is the "finance" which turn out to be Aushealth —> which the doctor / nurse / site manager mention to us will answer all our question
      2. that what they're saying to us (on surgery case)
      3. "there's no follow up care yet to occur" as we recommend to see GP after 2 weeks
      • Fiximol on 14/10/2018 - 15:15
        +1

        If you are frustrated by the lack of the information, that's fair. However, AFAIK until the hospital coders put into the system exactly what treatments were received an invoice can't be generated (except for may be the discharge pharmacy bill) - at least this is for the case for all patients 'billed' to government

        If they covered the surgery cost, then good for you, one less thing to worry about.

      • MessyG on 15/10/2018 - 08:28
        +1

        It's the weekend. Finance aren't there on the weekend. Secondly, finance are dealing with thousands of cases - they can't just tally up the cost of yours on demand. It does take time to cost a hospital visit in these circumstances because it's not at all straightforward, public hospitals aren't set up to deal with fee-for-service. They have to go through the admission and cost up everything, whereas for public patients they're paid a set amount based on the diagnosis from the government.

        • onevstheworld on 15/10/2018 - 08:43
          +2

          Good point on it being the weekend.

          In the surgeon's mind, the thinking is probably goes a bit like:
          For an emergency procedure that I know must be done; should I wait until finance gets back to us and delay the procedure (at potentially ~$2000/day hospital costs, plus associated complications for delaying), or get it done ASAP to avoid 2-3 days of unnecessary hospital days?

          • MessyG on 17/10/2018 - 08:32

            @onevstheworld: Exactly this - it's so much cheaper to get it done than stuff around waiting for finance and then having everything delayed by the inevitable complications that will happen when you don't imminently operate on a big long bone fracture.

      • snook on 15/10/2018 - 16:43

        I was recently in hospital and while i didn't have to pay any bills (CTP), it took about 6 weeks for all the invoices to arrive.

  • [Deactivated] on 14/10/2018 - 12:03
    +37

    Unfortunate situation but for example for visitors visas in Victoria:

    "Most visas require overseas visitors to hold private health insurance during their stay in Australia."

    "If you need medical attention during your stay and you do not have private health insurance, you will be charged for all hospital, ambulance and doctors’ fees. If your medical situation is serious, the costs can be considerable."

    In this case, not insuring a 70 YO is irresponsible. Taxpayers should not be the ones insuring visitors.

    • sagrules on 14/10/2018 - 12:45
      +1

      Op is from Melbourne,so this would apply

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 13:47
      -2

      Thank you for mention it, i will check

  • Melb69 on 14/10/2018 - 12:05

    @missyy Can we now get a response from OP.

  • Toons on 14/10/2018 - 12:29

    Depends on country they are from for example we have an agreement with Italy that they can use the medicare system here much like we can when going there.

    You need to some digging for research

    @constanza did the research on that for you above.

    • Randxyz123 on 14/10/2018 - 12:52
      +3

      Depends on country they are from for example we have an agreement with Italy that they can use the medicare system here much like we can when going there.

      We do have SOME reciprocal rights with some countries however it would be a very bad idea to put 'all your eggs in that basket' that is not buying travel insurance because of that. The rights are very limited…

      From https://www.iselect.com.au/overseas-visitors-health-cover/re…

      If you can't afford to pay the $300-400 for travel insurance then you can't afford to travel.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 13:48
      +1

      Thank you but our country are not listed

  • FiDad on 14/10/2018 - 13:34
    +2

    OP, Hope your dad is doing ok and the shopping centre helps with some of the cost. I don't much to add to this topic but I will say just be thankful that you live in Australia and not US otherwise the bill would have an extra zero at the end possibly even two zeros

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 13:48

      thank you for the wishes

  • Fier2 on 14/10/2018 - 15:11
    +1

    Sorry to hear that your dad got hurt. Wish him a speedy recovery. NOt sure about the "compassionate ground" about medical cost but i know by experience you will be out for a lot of money. Don t worry too much, if you can t pay in one go, i remembered that they offered you some plans for a monthly repayment and the positive side is your dad is in good care and better now than later as he still healthy to support a surgery. Good luck to both of you.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 15:26
      -7

      thank you for wishes, just the frustation of hospital not being transparant about the cost since admitted to discharge to 2 weeks after discharge

  • Amaris on 14/10/2018 - 15:48

    Sorry to hear about your father.
    Speak to the entity sending you the bill. If you can’t pay it straight away ask for a payment plan. They’re usually not unreasonable and you can agree on a fortnightly payment depending on your income.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 16:26

      will take note for that, thank you for insight

  • gimli on 14/10/2018 - 16:13

    Hope your dad is well! Australian health care system is excellent IMO so in someways may be it is a positive he didn't have the fall overseas. Hip fractures should be operated on sooner rather than later. Your dad wouldn't be able to walk if they didn't operate anyways so would be stuck in hospital etc for a long time.

    Re bills one thing I am curious about which you me want to find out is what implication it may have for future visas. I assume your dad may want to visit Australia again.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 16:31
      +1

      yes eventhough is unfortunate event, as i'm the only reliable family member that can be count on, can't imagine if this happen overseas without having anyone there, yes my dad will want visit australia again

  • whooah1979 on 14/10/2018 - 16:26

    he say not to worry about cost as hospital can cover it on compasionate ground,
    she said not to worry about the cost and everything will work out and the finance will contact us on monday

    You should've recorded this on your smartphone. You may use this with any claims they've with your dad.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 16:32

      yes i should have, but unfortunately in that kind of situation (with my dad all in pain) my brain not working effectively

      • zuuutoootuuu on 14/10/2018 - 17:20
        -4

        pay up, don't come here to try get hospital services for free

  • Klasglart on 14/10/2018 - 16:27
    +1

    Firstly, sorry to hear about your situation. What you can do is speak to the hospital finance department or the admission department in your hospital. Your father will be classed as a medical ineligible overseas patient. Clinical staff do not make decisions regarding whether the hospital charges or not. They are there to provide clinical care. Hospital management can decide whether to waive the fee or not, but this is extremely rare (e.g asylum seekers etc.) and usually requires high level approval. You can enter into a payment plan and negotiate with hospital finance regarding your debt. If you're in NSW, you can see the per day cost of staying in the hospital under NSW Health's charges and fees.

    Call the hospital switchboard and asked to be put through to finance/admission during business hours. At the end of the day, you are going to have to pay something.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 20:34
      -1

      Thank you, i already contacted with billing department / aushealth, none of them have answer

      • Klasglart on 14/10/2018 - 21:06

        If so, they'll send you an invoice soon with the exact cost broken down. Healthcare is complex, they can't give you an exact quote prior to admission, especially when your father was admitted via ED. Every diagnostic test, intervention by clinicians, procedure and the occupied bed is costed when you're medicare ineligible patient.

    • HumbleCat on 15/10/2018 - 01:19
      +6

      You would make an excellent republican.

      • Blitzfx on 15/10/2018 - 02:02
        +11

        I'm so glad to be Australian. I cannot imagine having to choose between going bankrupt or getting treated for gunshot wounds from a mass shooting.

        • fatal on 16/10/2018 - 15:54

          Pretty much this.

        • try2bhelpful on 16/10/2018 - 15:57

          You don't even need that. Have a chat to a few Americans about what their "out of pocket" expenses are for even, relatively, small procedures. We had a chat to this guy who had a piece of glass in his finger - out here the local GP would've taken it out or it would've been done by the ER guys - but over there he got passed around to a couple of "specialists" and it cost him $500 dollars on top of his insurance.

  • JimmyF on 14/10/2018 - 16:45
    +8

    Sorry to hear about your dad.

    don't have travel insurance

    Sorry to say, it is what it is. You have no heath insurance, you'll receive bills for the full cost of whats required.

    While Australians have 'cheap' heath care, its not 'free' its just the bill goes to the gov aka tax payer. Non Australians can't flick the bill to the gov, so they end up with the full bill. Which is what will happen. Yes you can enter a payment plan.

    You rolled the dice and lost.

  • raytriplej on 14/10/2018 - 16:53

    Where is he from? UK has reciprical public health cover.

    • Geejay on 14/10/2018 - 17:16

      Sorry to hear about your dad.

      Not going in to details why you didn't have insurance.

      1)Now some of people above advised you that he is in breach of Visa condition so surely but one . If you can buy from overseas or from Australia.
      It will not cover your current situation but will let you out from any breach conditions.

      2) second paying not is one of the option but think that it's still public expense. They don't have at the moment checking this but future Visa also has clause you shouldn't be owning any money to Australia Government department.

      3) now coming to your point ; to save you money which you wanted to know.

      Hosiptal and doctor do have to provide you clear financial implication as per Australian Charter of Healthcare Rights.
      You can Google charter but it's not mean you can simple say they didn't advise you.

      Timing of conversation with whom will be critical to prove your case.

      Now , Shopping centre - don't know what was scenrio but you can make them to be liable which we be easy way to come out from this situation.

      • asking about cleaning schedule
      • why and how slip happened
      • what first aid SC provided.

      There are few more points.

      If you can provide more detail about incident may be able to help.

      • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 20:38
        +1

        Thank you for your response
        1. i already check (visa grant notice) and there's none on his visa mention to have travel insurance (i recheck again)
        2. noted
        3. i will check on that, thank you
        4. about dealing with shopping centre, i already in touch with "no win no fee" lawyer, lets see how it goes

        • Thenarrator on 14/10/2018 - 22:16

          please let us know how it goes with shopping centre so it'll be useful for otherppl down the track

      • Roman Sandstorm on 15/10/2018 - 12:19

        At last there is some sensible advice…

        But there is another principle here to consider.

        OP, you are not liable for your father's debt.

        Even if you signed 'something' on admission or early in the process, you did so on the understanding that fees would be minimal/non-existent. You would not have had a fully informed consent at that stage. And medical authorities cannot refuse treatment based on financial considerations. Your father would have received (most likely excellent) treatment for his situation regardless of visas, insurance, etc.

        If the hospital chooses to levee fees, it is your father who has to pay them.

        I do not know if your father's culture is one that accepts group/family responsibility for debts, or whether it is considered 'dishonourable/inappropriate' in that culture for debt to be assigned to an individual, but given the circumstances you describe, you are not liable for any costs. This may be a psychological matter for your father (and you) to grasp, and that him being liable does not impact/imply anything for you. (And it doesn't mean you don't care, etc.)

        Now, recovering medical costs, even for Australian citizens, can take months/years. Like any other civil debt it must go through a lengthy recovery process. It's not like there's a burly security guard at the airport departure lounge who will see you father on a 'list of known miscreants' and approach him with a baseball bat, and prevent him from leaving the country.

        So then the recovery process must become an overseas legal matter.

        It will be up to your father as to how he proceeds with this potential debt. You say his country is not one which has reciprocal health arrangements with Australia, so it is probably likely that legal debt recovery interaction between Australia and that country will be…. complex… difficult… time-consuming…

        Definitely follow-up with the shopping centre (there does not have to be'fault' regarding civil liability - that's why they are insured); your legal people will be on top of this I'm sure.

        And don't panic that you're going to have to fork out tens of thousands of dollars by next week/month/year.

        • reactor-au on 15/10/2018 - 16:06

          Someone will have to pay the costs, simple as that. One possible outcome is OPs father not being granted another visa to enter Australia. We also don't know the wording of or who signed what- maybe OP signed to accept all costs, who knows. Too many unknowns. You seem to be saying it's immoral for OP to be responsible for the costs yet it's not immoral to not pay ones debts?

      • Roman Sandstorm on 15/10/2018 - 12:27

        Oh, BTW, I'm waiting with interest for HighAndDry's extreme libertarian contribution to this.

        I am intrigued if he would agree with my suggestion that you have no responsibility for any debt your father may incur. Do his extreme individualistic views have a hidden implication of 'debts of the father shall be passed on to the son'? Or will it be seen as 'His fault, his injury, his debt'?

        • HighAndDry on 15/10/2018 - 12:36

          I am intrigued if he would agree with my suggestion that you have no responsibility for any debt your father may incur.

          Flattered to be thought of, but OP said she signed something about being responsible for the costs of her dad's healthcare. It'd depend on what that says, but if she didn't sign and agree to be liable, then she's not liable - easy as that.

          • Roman Sandstorm on 15/10/2018 - 14:21

            @HighAndDry: Woo-hoo…. nice… :-)

            From what I can gather, the document signed may have been done so without full knowledge of all the possible outcomes, plus given advice at the time that it would be 'OK' money-wise. (Else where would the OP have heard about the discretionary option?) Hence, in such a case it would be of… dubious? legal standing.

            I admit, this 'family responsibility' thing is a little bug-bear of mine. In particular when I hear of families complaining about funeral costs for a deceased person (well, there would hardly be funeral costs for a live one, eh?).

            You do not have to pay for someone else's funeral. Even father, mother, child, etc. Some unscrupulous funeral companies will whisk away a corpse, and before you know it, they say you owe them $$$.

            But if you clearly state that you are not paying for any costs associated with the deceased, the state (via the funeral company) still have legal obligations.

            'Reasonable costs' can be demanded from the deceased's estate, and that would be for the executor and the funeral company's debt recovery people to work out.

            But it is not compulsory for relatives to pay for basic funeral expenses.

            Sorry, OT a little here, but there is a slight relevance with the original post regarding whether they have to pay for a relative.

            • HighAndDry on 15/10/2018 - 14:28

              @Roman Sandstorm: Oh I'm completely on your side here. Other than (in some cases) for your child, "family responsibility" shouldn't be a legal thing at all, and often times not even a moral thing, depending on said family.

              I think in this case there's a balance between OP needing to know what she signed (but she seems to be able to read English well), and time constraints on needing to get her father in to surgery because generally the longer you leave it, the worse it is for the patient. And a lot of the time if you have good family members, they'll be the ones pushing to sign it and get the relative into surgery as soon as possible.

              Edit: Don't get me started on funeral homes. There are good ones, but there are just as many vultures.

    • Bystander on 14/10/2018 - 20:39
      +6

      OP's grammar sounds Chinese. No reciprocal rights.

  • ode1online on 14/10/2018 - 17:09
    +1

    Sorry to hear your troubles.

    Apart from the outcome what other option did he have ?

    I doubt he would have been able to return home if he needed an operation.

  • [Deactivated] on 14/10/2018 - 17:47

    Sorry to hear about your situation and I hope your father is recovering well.

    The majority of hip fractures require surgery prior to being able to walk again (or even weight-bear). From the moment he fractured his hip, there was no way you would be negotiating having his surgery overseas, so you can put that out of your mind. It is unlikely any airline would clear him for travel in his condition.

    Hospitals do have ways of reducing bills and realistically, your father is 'just one extra person. ' I can also guarantee many of the Australian citizens who use our health system are contributing less to our economy than a traveller who spends their money here.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 20:40

      Thank you for the wishes, appreciate the response

  • drrrr on 14/10/2018 - 18:00
    +2

    Most doctors and nurses have no idea about the costs for overseas visitors - their job is to provide clinical care, not to worry about money. The only thing they can advise is referring you to 'finance', the department in charge of coding all the treatments and eventually coming to the overall cost (it can take several weeks), taking into account the surgery, hospital bed (~1500-2000/night I believe), investigations (xray, blood tests) and medications. Since you've signed the paperwork it is likely you will be responsible, and a payment plan can be negotiated (I would think). I've heard about overseas visitors with no family/contacts and no money can receive treatment for serious medical problems and not pay (because Australia is not completely heartless), but the patient will be banned from re-entering Australia due to their unpaid debt.
    By the way, it is possible to treat more minor fractures in your home country e.g. arm or ankle, but a femoral fracture is significant and the longer it's left untreated the worse the outcome. He would also be completely immobile and in pain, so I don't think treating overseas was an option.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 20:41

      thank you for the response

  • AddNinja on 14/10/2018 - 19:04
    +1

    As many have pointed out - travel insurance is important, and having to pay for medical procedures in another country is reasonable. However, it also sounds as though you did your best to get costs from them and they weren’t given or were vague until after the procedure. That is unusual for most commercial transactions. I wonder how someone from consumer affairs would see this? This is not to say that you don’t have a duty to pay for care, but on the other hand, the hospital has a duty to be clear about their costs. You might find you can negotiate a lower price.

    • missyy on 14/10/2018 - 20:25
      -1

      agree, i'm not denying i have bill to pay but dont appreciate hospital not being transparant about cost at all

      • Flanders on 15/10/2018 - 03:09

        Sorry to hear about your dad, hope he is well soon and recovers well.
        It may have been a case where the people you spoke with, were focused on health care and not experts on the financial costs of each and every part of health care.
        ie. If you talked to doctor, maybe he has a rough idea of his pay, but not knowing every single cost involved (especially since it is a public hospital and most patients, being Australian citizens, are getting free health care) .
        Private patients are probably only 1% or less at public hospital. And really, they are not going to talk you out of an emergency operation at such a time.

        As others have mentioned, your father gambled and lost. In that he chose to not buy health insurance, it probably would have been fine (then his gamble is a 'win') . He does have the money to pay, so he should pay the bill really. To not pay bill, is kind of like going to a casino and then you lose, and tell them im not going to pay.
        Did you ask your father why he did not buy health insurance ?
        You could contact your father's home country and ask them to help with the bill, and ask them what to do.

      • icejester on 17/10/2018 - 00:13

        They wanted to save your dad's life. They probably didn't know the full cost either, but they knew that if your dad didn't get the surgery he might've died.

        Is money really that important compared to saving a life?

  • kanad on 14/10/2018 - 19:07

    My wife's friend's dad visiting from overseas had cerebral stroke the 2nd day he landed. Had to be operated in a major public hospital, fortunately they had insurance which covered it, but Stroke treatment requires a long on going rehabilitation program which the insurance doesn't cover. The hospital tried to arrange a medical air ambulance to evacuate him from Australia. She wanted to take his care in Australia than send him back home alone in a very bad state to a country where such care is poor, fortunately they earned enough to afford the rehab in private but spend many 10s of thousands of dollars. The good news was the dad recovered successfully.

    I know the visa conditions says to get travel insurance but he Asutralian border force doesn't check. When my wife' mum came here I made sure she got insurance.

    UK is now charging 400 pounds/yr for visa to non-EU residents. Not a bad idea to include the charge as part of Visa.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-charge-mi…

  • May4th on 14/10/2018 - 19:37

    re: the fall in shopping centre - not suggesting anything without knowing further detail but is there any potential liability for the shopping centre? e.g. wet floor, obstacles left in the way etc

  • Ocker on 14/10/2018 - 19:39
    +8

    Why should my hard earned dollars be used to pay the medical costs of a visitor to our great country that was too lousy to take out the proper travel insurance? Yet another drain on our medical system

    • TheSmegger on 15/10/2018 - 10:09
      +3

      Please show where OP stated a refusal to pay.
      The only complaint was refering to transparency and the time its taking to be given a cost estimate.

      • spasto on 16/10/2018 - 00:24

        A lot of the estimated costs are already available online eg. Here's one.

        In NSW, the approximate costs for hip replacement is $25k - not including emergency fees etc. Suffice to say, the ER costs are North of $40K for a one week stay.

  • johnno07 on 14/10/2018 - 19:51
    +10

    Count your lucky stars this didn't happen in somewhere like the US.

  • Marcsie on 14/10/2018 - 20:08
    +2

    Too simple,no insurance,just pay the bill out of your pocket,learn a valuable lession and moves on !

  • Name on 14/10/2018 - 21:37
    -7

    My wife was sick in the USA about a decade ago. She went to hospital, saw a doctor for 15 minutes, got a script and a bill for $1,100. She gave her sisters address in the USA. Wife left the country about a week later, didn't pay. Her sister got a letter of demand, her sister just sent it back to the sender and said this person doesn't live here. Never heard anything since.

    If it is a huge bill, I'd be tempted to flee!

    • IMadeYouReadThis on 15/10/2018 - 08:34
      +1

      Karma will catch up one day and there will be nowhere to flee.

      • johnno07 on 15/10/2018 - 10:01

        Karma likely won't catch up with him, because it doesn't exist. Still a shit thing to do though.

  • ribze1 on 14/10/2018 - 22:06
    +3

    Imagine if it happened in the US and cost you $150,000!

  • IMadeYouReadThis on 14/10/2018 - 22:36
    +1

    OP hopefully your dad is getting better and I wish him all the luck. Now, you seem to be totally in wrong (sorry)! I understand that you applied for his tourist visa and were very well aware of the visa condition that you must have a medical insuarance which you completely ignored.

    I also believe that when you applied for the visa, you sent an invitation letter to immigration saying that you will take full responsibility of your dad (including financially).

    Now, if your circumstances are tough and you can prove that you can’t pay the hospital bill then they might be able to decrease the bill on comentionate grounds. However, if you are earning well and just didn’t buy insurance because you didn’t care - then unfortunately you will end up paying. Pleas talk to hospital to see how much reduction is possible and then put a payment plan for this. If you make it big deal and immigration get notified then it will be a breach of visa (not having insurance) and you dad may not be able to visit Australia again.

    Sorry to be in situation where you are, but it was very careless of you to call your elderly parents here without insurance.

    • IMadeYouReadThis on 15/10/2018 - 08:35

      PS. Forgot to add the bit that everyone else has also suggested - check with shopping mall. They might be able to cover it.

  • drfuzzy on 14/10/2018 - 23:24
    +1

    Someone must pay for Dad's care.
    Should it be his uninsured self or should the taxpayers of Australia be expected to pay for him?

  • SuperFly 420 on 14/10/2018 - 23:28

    The hospital told you what you wanted to hear, because there was only one option: surgery.

    He would not be able to return to your county for surgery, and as you guys were hesitant, they said to not worry about costs and go ahead with the surgery.

  • Kamsi on 15/10/2018 - 00:00
    +8

    I don't understand how would the immigration office allows visitors over the age of 70 to come to Australia without health insurance. That is very surprise to me.

    • IMadeYouReadThis on 15/10/2018 - 08:32
      +2

      The condition of the visa is that visitors (regardless of their age) must have insurance. But they don't check whether the person has taken the insurance, the onus is on the traveler to arrange the insurance… perhaps, immigration should start checking this as part of the visa process.

      • IMadeYouReadThis on 15/10/2018 - 15:56

        Looks like that the OP father was on a three months visa and maintaining health insurance might not be a condition imposed on this short duration visa…

  • nikey2k27 on 15/10/2018 - 00:24

    because there was only one option: surgery. he not be able to to travel home with it you might be able to sue shopping center for it cost but it going to need to happen.

  • DBBROS on 15/10/2018 - 00:39
    +2

    I have come across patients who require specialist treatment and who did not have Medicare or a private health insurance. For people who could not make the lump payment they usually make arrangements so that they pay it off as a loan. It could be a lengthy process and the amount is going to be huge as a hip surgery is an expensive procedure. You should contact your case worker/social worker assigned to you who can give you a better picture.

  • Protato on 15/10/2018 - 00:42
    +3
    1. Your father was not medically cleared to fly anywhere with a fractured femur. He would not have been allowed on a plane.
    2. Doctors/nurses are not administration staff. They don't know what anything costs because everything's automatically billed to medicare.
    3. Maybe that orthopedic surgeon waved his surgery fee but he can't waive hospital bed costs/ED/Ambulance costs.
    • Flanders on 15/10/2018 - 03:12
      +1

      Exactly, he wouldn't have been able to fly.. and the people OP spoke to were not the ones taking the money. That's why they refered to another department regarding costs. They were not trying to deceive OP and father, they just were not fully aware of each and every cost.

  • TheMatrix on 15/10/2018 - 05:57
    +1

    Shopping centre have public liability insurance. Get advice from a good lawyer.

    • Icecold5000 on 15/10/2018 - 10:46

      They're probably billing 400-500 an hour….

  • Ryanek on 15/10/2018 - 08:08
    +2

    Be glad you don't live in the United Stated. You'd be bankrupt.

  • onevstheworld on 15/10/2018 - 08:26
    +1

    My only criticism of your dad's treatment is that your surgeon told you all costs would be waived without getting confirmation from the hospital beforehand. He may be making that assumption based on past experience, but it's still an assumption. He also should have explained what the alternatives are… like I said in my other post, you don't have many (medical evac - incredibly expensive and risky, palliation - not really appropriate).

    I don't see any malice with the rest of the issues you raise:
    1) X-rays aren't routinely provided to patients immediately… usually requires a formal request, and in a busy radiology department, it may take a while to arrange. You certainly must get the post-op x-rays though… the doctors who are following up your dad's care in his country may need to know what hardware has been put in and it's immediate post-op state if complications occur.
    2) Doctors and nurses in the public system have no idea what the hospital costs are. And unlike an elective case, which mostly follows a predictable course, for an emergency admission, even the hospital's financial dept can't give an accurate estimate. At the end of treatment, someone has to sit down with your dad's notes and itemize each procedure, test, medication, etc.

    Also, if the specialists who are involved in your care are VMO's (as opposed to staff specialists, who are paid by the hospital regardless); whenever a patient isn't Medicare covered, they don't get paid at all unless they bill the patient. Each VMO can approach this differently… some aren't bothered and do the case pro bono, some may insist on pre-payment before rendering care, some may take the matter to the debt collector.

    Finally, I don't believe you've mentioned if you or your dad can actually afford to pay. To qualify of costs to be waived based on compassionate grounds, you may actually need to prove you cannot afford it. However, for example, if your dad has a multi-million dollar business empire, I don't think Australian taxpayers would take kindly to footing his bill.

  • Stoozer on 15/10/2018 - 08:58

    How did he fall in the shops? Is there a chance liability is with the shopping centre so they can pay for the treatment?

  • makemytime on 15/10/2018 - 09:09
    +1

    Hi there,

    I have been a doctor in a public hospital for the past 3 years. I cannot comment or advise you specifically, can only tell you what has happened to overseas patients under my care.

    Firstly, a hip fracture is a serious injury. I am very sorry to hear about it. However, surgery needs to occur within a reasonable time, so taking him overseas was not a reasonable option.

    Secondly, I work in intensive care, a fairly costly admission for any patients admitted. We had an overseas gentleman That ended up staying with us for over 2 months, overall a 6 month admission in hospital all up. There was no hope of paying a debt of at least 500k (underestimate). His travel insurance happened to have run out 2 days into his hospital stay. He was discharged to his native country and I am sure he got a bill but the assumption was that there woild be no expectation that he would pay.

    What is different about your case and his is that you perhaps may have signed documents on your relative's behalf, which may have implications on you requiring to pay if you live in australia on a permanent basis. Good luck to you.

    • TheMindsetTraveller on 15/10/2018 - 10:19

      Exactly,

      The hospital can raise an invoice/cost to the patient - but if the patient is not able to repay it back - then it is up to the hospital to pursue that debt, informally or formally via the courts.

      The hospital will not keep anyone as a patient (after they are well/been treated) whilst they try to recover the funds. It is not practical.

      The only difference here is if the family/relative agreed to meet the costs - then obviously, they have better opportunities to recover those medical costs especially if they are in a position or have assets intra-Australia to do so.

  • mhasan on 15/10/2018 - 09:32
    -2

    I don't know if you are reading this but my wife was working in one of the biggest hospitals in Melbourne in finance recovery department, she saw these situations many times. Ok, what im about to say is all unofficial, a hospital has a budget for such cases.

    • Randxyz123 on 15/10/2018 - 10:29
      +5

      Yeah a budget for irresponsible people which is billed to the Australian people. The budget is so the doctors who do surgeries like this are paid.

      I’m sorry but as I said before OP, I really don’t think your dad should be getting much if anything on “compassionate” grounds. The doctor shouldn’t have said that.

      What you need to look at now OP is

      1) Will your dad need to stay in Australia for rehab ?

      2) When does his visa expire (what kind is it) as others have said depending on the country if youve signed a letter saying you’re responsible for him then that assumes you are able to cover things like this.

      3) Follow up each week with the finance department of the hospital and find out about payment plans.

      and for the love of god get him some god dam local health insurance or travel insurance.

    • HighAndDry on 15/10/2018 - 12:40

      A "budget" doesn't just come out of thin air.

    • Roman Sandstorm on 15/10/2018 - 14:37

      Yes, good point.

      For those of you concerned about Australia's hospital system possibly 'missing out' on tens of thousands of dollars…

      The actual sunk cost of the patient's treatment is nowhere near the total bill cost. Just like with a car service, the 'cost' of oil, filter, mechanic's wages, garage rental, etc, etc… may come to $110, the bill you receive might be $470. And that's not a rip off; it is a normal accounting process.

      In cases of write-off accounts, or compassionate concessions, etc, the real $$$ may only be a tenth of the 'bill'. And there's nothing wrong with this. In fact, I am proud that Australia has such a system in place to aid and treat those who would otherwise miss out.

      Similar system is in place for 'Reciprocal Health Care Agreements'. I had to have a fairly minor emergency medical procedure in Norway once. The 'total bill' (for one day) was eye-bleeding. But as we have that agreement, the cost to me was the same as if I had presented at the ER here: Zero. The hospitals, through a specific budget, make allowance for these cases. Just as they make allowance for discretionary ones, or even for those that are considered not worth (or too hard) to follow-up.

    • missyy on 15/10/2018 - 18:47
      -2

      noted, thank you for response

  • Mparadox on 15/10/2018 - 10:24

    ** removed **

  • leznix on 15/10/2018 - 10:56

    Dear OP

    I think some credit card company do provide some form of travel insurance, something like this:

    https://www.creditcardcompare.com.au/travel-insurance-credit…

    You might want to check your if your dad's cards have such coverage.

    I hope your dad get well soon and everything turns out ok for your family.

    • missyy on 15/10/2018 - 18:48
      -1

      i will recheck again, thank you for your suggestion

  • srhardy on 15/10/2018 - 10:59

    missyy, care is fluid so its imposible to quote for costs. If your dad has any assess its going to cost him bigtime. But as for you, I say you can

    negotiate the final bill, if its a choice the hospital will settle for cash as to fighting in court or chasing a foreign resident.

    relax, the final bill is the final bill.

    • SlickMick on 15/10/2018 - 11:24

      I don't think I'd be wanting to see the bill. Even when they send it I reckon I'd leave it unopened for a while.
      Once that letter is opened, the financial pain starts.

  • try2bhelpful on 15/10/2018 - 11:42
    +1

    I do feel sorry for the OP, and her family, and hope her father recovers shortly. However, to me the takehome for everyone here is when travelling make sure you have hefty health insurance coverage. Especially if the person travelling is elderly.

    Maybe the answer is to have a scheme similar to the Compulsory 3rd Party insurance where the Visa includes an insurance fee to cover public medical costs if someone becomes ill, or is injured, whilst in the country (it would not cover elective medical things to minimise rorting). That way you know people are covered and the Government can keep the insurance fee down as they are, effectively, providing access to services they administer and it will be spread across a large number of people. I'm sure there are a frighteningly large number of people who are in the same position as the OP in regards to ignoring getting insurance.

  • [Deactivated] on 15/10/2018 - 12:10

    Sorry to hear what happened to your Dad must be very stressful on you.
    You can't be personally responsible for your Dad not having travel insurance as far as as anybody else on the forum is for their relatives travel insurance, Gofundme is full of non-insured or under-insured Australians who need $100000+ to pay medical bills in Bali and a medical evacuation to Australian and there are regular appeals on the news.

    • gromit on 15/10/2018 - 17:09
      +6

      Those people piss me off, Australians have no excuse not to have proper medical cover when travelling, every site advises, the airlines try to push it on you, every travel agent tries to add it on, news articles constantly about people going bankrupt because they didn't have it. Simple fact is if you can't afford the travel insurance then you can't afford to travel. I have some sympathy for the OP though as they seem to come from a country where this isn't well understood, sadly not much can be done after the fact.

      Had to carefully explain to my wife while in Bali why we couldn't get scooters even though we both have motorcycle licenses in AUS, when I made it clear that 99% of the tourists on the scooters were either uninsured or in breach of their insurance policy (as we would be if we got them) and would be bankrupt or up for 10's of thousands if not more in bills if they come a cropper she was more understanding.

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