Should I be paid for being asked to report 10 minutes earlier than rostered time?

tik tok on 26/11/2019 - 14:45
Last edited 26/11/2019 - 15:26

I cannot find anything about this on the fairwork website. Can an employer legally ask an employee to report 10 minutes before the rostered shift in order to sign in and not pay the employee for this extra 10 minutes ?

I find this hard to believe. Anyway, asking for a mate and this is an excerpt from the email he got (cos he was 1 minute late on 2 occasions in a fortnight) :

We encourage all staff to arrive at least ten minutes before your shift to allow time to sign in and put your belongings away before arriving on the floor. I would like to remind you that the rostered time is the time we expect staff to arrive on the floor, not at the Centre.

How can we support you to ensure you are arriving on time?

The signing in itself is on a phone app which takes forever. Then they have to sign out/in for their breaks using the same app and get their pay docked if they stuff up the break sign in/out 'because the app says so'. In my view 10 minutes a day, 20 days a month is 200 minutes, about 3 hours of work without pay. I dont think many would care for my view - but I'd like to know people's opinion.

EDIT Just editing the question as tired of replying individually. There is no point to a reply with 'it makes you look good to the employer' bs. The mate is happy to show up 10 minutes prior, but wants to know if that is going to be paid or not ? The employer says no - so is there a law which protects him from essentially working for free. Edited the subject to reflect the same.

Education & Work

Comments

  • MessyG on 28/11/2019 - 20:52

    Not for ten minutes - overtime usually gets paid for half an hour over.

  • [Deactivated] on 28/11/2019 - 21:16

    I think it depends on the margin ratio of the industry you are in, but you shouldn't be telling them to arrive earlier than usual.

    I had one employee who consistently came in earlier than usual, gave him a bonus last year to make up for it because I felt like he contributed a lot more to the company than others. He will be getting another bonus this year, but I haven't calculated it yet.

    To be honest;
    Wow. I don't know what makes an employer decide to tell people to come in earlier, maybe they are going broke, or the manager is trying to meet some KPI to get a promotion. If I find out who that guy is, boom, out the stupid door. You kill my company and make everyone miserable just to make yourself promotable; wtf. It's just stupid, but it happens all the time.

    Can you please clarify whether this is the manager or the employer? My money's on a manager…

    You kill morale, you lose productivity. Idiots.

  • hasher22 on 28/11/2019 - 21:18
    +1

    "Can an employer legally ask an employee to report 10 minutes before the rostered shift in order to sign in and not pay the employee for this extra 10 minutes ?"

    Short answer: If you work in that 10 minutes you get paid, if not, you don't get paid. Simple.

    Long Answer: I used to work for a call centre and retail.

    We used to be told to to arrive 15 minutes before work, get ready and be ready when our shift starts. If the shift starts at 10am, we are ready to serve customers at 10am.

    BUT if we are working such as opening the store, prepping the store for 15 minutes, we would get paid that 15 minutes.
    BUT 2: if you arrive at work and just sitting there before your shift then you don't get paid.

    And yes, 10 minutes, if you do work, you should get paid. No ifs or buts

    Legal answer: If you are paid on wage, you are paid for every hour worked and pro-rata under 1 hour.

    • macfudd on 28/11/2019 - 22:41

      So honest question here about the call centre side.

      If you were there 10 minutes early 'just sitting there' but that sitting involved turning on some ancient PC, logging in, firing up whatever required software etc does that count as something you get paid for or not?

      To me from an outside view, that doesn't seem much different to say prepping a store prior to opening - it's reading a workspace. But from what I know of call centres, I expect that you do that in your own time and bang on start time you better have a call drop in.

      • hasher22 on 28/11/2019 - 23:30
        +1

        "If you were there 10 minutes early 'just sitting there' but that sitting involved turning on some ancient PC, logging in, firing up whatever required software etc does that count as something you get paid for or not?"

        This is debatable to some people, but to me it's a no cause setting up in a call center setting is not "work". You're preparing to work. In saying that, alot of people in my call centre use to log in (paid time) then start answering calls while setting up/prepping the PC for the day.

        "To me from an outside view, that doesn't seem much different to say prepping a store prior to opening"
        Prepping up a store in my view is different, as it's in your job description to make sure the store is clean, tidy, products are where it should be, the till is counted, paperwork correlates etc. It's part of your job morning, mid and end shift. Thoughout the day, you're constantly adjusting, cleaning etc. It would be different if I came into the retail store space and turn on the computer, open few programs to start the day which would be inline with a call centre and even then, I wouldn't need to turn up early for work.

        • macfudd on 29/11/2019 - 00:11

          Cheers, that makes sense.

          • stringbean402 on 01/12/2019 - 20:25

            @macfudd: When i used to work for Telstra back in the day we had a metric called 'WRAP'…. we could be logged into the phones but not have new calls drop in… (there was a button to make you inactive). The KPI was less than 10% of your total work time for the day… this includes things like toilet breaks, finishing up notes after a call, logging in on arrival if your running tight for time etc.

            10% was super easy for me but some people struggled as they weren't all that good at their jobs.

  • CalmLemons on 28/11/2019 - 21:20

    The statement says work starts when you are on the floor. The time it takes for you to travel from your car, inside the store, to your locker, chit chat, then start work, should not be paid. It's sort of getting on the ridiculous sometimes.

    Consider how much time you waste on work…..

  • [Deactivated] on 28/11/2019 - 21:44

    You shouldn’t be paid to put your stuff away. But if signing is required then it’s part of the job and where the sign in machine is, is where your shift starts.

    • ShouldIBuyIt on 29/11/2019 - 11:12

      Sign in, and then put your stuff away…
      Isn't that everyone is doing in corporate world? Open the computer/Skype/outlook. Then go for a coffee…
      I did an apprenticeship in a factory and that's what people would do. Especially at the end of the journey. They'll go around have a chat/say good buy see you tmr to the colleague/toilets and then sign off..

  • Handsoff on 28/11/2019 - 22:54
    +2

    Arriving 10 minutes early is not working for free, it's getting ready for work. No one gets paid to get ready for work.

    • idonotknowwhy on 28/11/2019 - 23:03

      I do

    • hasher22 on 28/11/2019 - 23:32

      I did in the retail space, call centre no though.

  • drfuzzy on 29/11/2019 - 07:34
    +4

    Stop thinking small. Think big.
    You are asking the wrong question.
    The question isn't "how do I get paid for a few minutes each day more?"
    The question should be "what behaviours should I be doing to earn double or triple my current wage?".

    • tik tok on 29/11/2019 - 11:13
      -5

      He already started thinking big and got a job earning double or triple, from being unemployed and earning $0.00. Now that he has learnt that behaviour he is after getting every penny he works for.

      • urinal cake on 30/11/2019 - 08:50

        And also every penny that he isn't working for when he's rocking up late on regular occasions?

        If your friend's employer is smart they'll be keeping track of the late starts, warning him in writing, and laying the foundation to let him go if he doesn't fix his poor behaviour.

      • smartazz104 on 01/12/2019 - 21:40

        Zero tripled is still zero…

    • cloudy on 30/11/2019 - 09:54

      Shame you entered this response on the third page, deserves 100 +votes

  • Spootage on 29/11/2019 - 08:08

    Yes, your “friend” should get to work with enough time to be ready to start doing actual work right on the dot that “their” shift starts. No you should not be paid for that time.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 29/11/2019 - 08:54
    -1

    I had managers ask this when i worked in hospitality i used to rock up a few mins early have a coffee because they were free for staff when i worked behind a bar. I am with you though they should just pay you 10-15 mins if they want you early but generally smaller businesses are trying to cut costs.

  • Slippery Fish on 29/11/2019 - 09:44

    Your not working that 10 mins, your job is to be in the place of where you do your job at 1second past the minute. That message doesn't say he was late for the 10 mins it says he was late to his shift.

  • Vote for Pedro on 29/11/2019 - 10:53

    Encourage your mate to ask his union.

  • ShouldIBuyIt on 29/11/2019 - 11:07

    "How can we support you to ensure you are arriving on time?"

    Classic management technique to tick a box saying we tried to support you. I got that in so many different place. "Manager: What do you need from me?" If I knew I would have asked already. What about coming up with some ideas/suggestions to proactively support the staff?

    Same thing with all those greens saying customers should be responsible and find alternative to save on packaging waste and save the planet.
    When I look at the shit load of packaging I throw away every week, I'd love to have alternative to do my bits. What about getting Woolies & co to come up with suggestions/actions so we don't have to buy packaging?

    Worse part is that recently my council issued a magazine with 8 (or 10) ideas to limit the waste.
    1 of them was: ask your friends/neighbours for ideas. What a lazy article…

    Sorry for disgressing…

    Good luck OP for your friend

  • biggweilo on 29/11/2019 - 12:21

    It makes you look good to the employer +D

  • Tiredman on 29/11/2019 - 12:34
    +2

    Don't see the fuss, i always get to work 15-30mins earlier to get myself organized even if i'm not paid.

    • hasher22 on 29/11/2019 - 12:47

      Getting organised is different from working. If the OP's friend is putting their bag down, getting coffee, adjusting their uniform, putting on their uniform then it's unpaid. But lets say the OPs friend is working but the OP didn't state what kind of industry they are work at, but the general rule applies. If a person is working, they get paid.

      • Tiredman on 29/11/2019 - 12:50

        Work life balance in Aus is freaking great.

  • Levathian on 29/11/2019 - 12:44

    Depends on what activity your employer expects you to do.

    If I walked into my job at say 7:59am, clocked on at 8:00am, then went and put my bag away, went to the toilet, freshened up, made a coffee etc. and physically started working at 8:06am, then technically I am late even if I "clocked on on time". If that's the type of thing your "friend" does then it's a fair point to the employer.

  • kylarstern on 29/11/2019 - 13:10

    :'D

  • kylarstern on 29/11/2019 - 13:11

    Seriously are you kidding me? Suck it up princess. Most people turn up to work at least 5-10 minutes earlier than the start time so they're ready to start. I am guessing you're new to working.

    • Serapis on 30/11/2019 - 15:01

      Just because it's the industry "norm" it doesn't make it correct. Pushing these boundaries lead to bad practices especially with managers.

  • bobolo on 29/11/2019 - 13:13
    +8

    As a business owner, if any of my employees pulled this crap I'd just fire them or "manage them out"

    Plenty of people looking for work with the right attitude who won't nickel and dime over legalities and what they're entitled to.

    Don't like it? Get an ABN, start your own business and make up your own rules

    • hasher22 on 29/11/2019 - 14:10

      What if they're working for 10 minutes before their shift?

      • Soluble on 29/11/2019 - 14:23

        Because they want to be and are a dedicated employee, or because they were putting their handbag/jacket/phone/wallet away and having a coffee?

        • hasher22 on 29/11/2019 - 15:42

          That's workplace culture or personal ethics if they work 10 minutes before their shift. But legally they need to be paid if they work. But putting their bags away, dressing up, coffee, toilet etc before work is not paid.

      • bobolo on 29/11/2019 - 15:57
        +5

        If they do it consistently? I give them a bonus or a promotion. In fact looking back, the senior staff I have now have all put in extra hours or had some sort of extra commitment/loyalty without complaints when they started in junior positions. It never goes unnoticed. Most business owners started off working various jobs previously, so we know what its like.

        Fairly common in most jobs to start early, stay back, take shorter lunch breaks every now and then etc depending on type of work or workload.

        I may be an anomaly, but if my employees do the right thing by me, I return the favor several fold. If not, then seeya later

          • stringbean402 on 30/11/2019 - 07:33
            +1

            @tik tok: Thats why your mate we be stuck on shit wages with no pay rises or bonuses for life ,like a modern slave wondering why they are never offered a promotion or pay rise.

          • bobolo on 30/11/2019 - 15:36
            +1

            @tik tok: And you/your mate seem like the 'see you next tuesday' kind of employee. Thank heavens I don't have an employee like him

        • hasher22 on 29/11/2019 - 17:54
          +4

          Legally if they work and is on wage, you need to pay them. It's that simple. If they put in extra work, that's their prerogative but there can be a point in time where an employee will ask for back pay.

          You vision of an employee is to work for free and do extra hours for free. While this mentality is favoured with all business owners, it becomes a norm and the fact that employees have more to lose than gain by raising a question: "hey, I should be getting paid", which tarnishes their name and career path in the business for being "that guy who spoke up".

          Yes it's common for businesses for employees to work extra hours for free because they need to catch up with work, and why is this? This could be for multiple reasons such as;
          - Tight, unrealistic deadlines
          - Understaffed
          - Other employees on annual leave

          We all assume and expect employers are doing the right thing and giving employees a fair chance in the workplace. Juniors don't complain because of said reason above.

          This is the norm for alot of people and it just baffles me how much of unpaid work people are getting. In retail, they didn't pay me for breaks and the OT as at the time I was new, I didn't want to make a fuss. But it was written in my EBA but my manager told me "you dont get breaks or OT" but when I read my work contract and the EBA, after 2 years, I was owed 8k worth of backpay. This was an easy case for me, cause it was a corporation as 1 case to HR, they looked into it and decided in my favour.

    • Serapis on 30/11/2019 - 15:02

      I doubt you have a company

  • Squidmcsproggen on 29/11/2019 - 13:54
    +7

    Geez what a bunch of silver spoon sooks
    if your not at least 10 minutes early your late

  • DemocracyManifest on 29/11/2019 - 13:56
    -5

    No they should be paying you from say if it’s a 9am start 8:45 or so that’s bullshit. I had colleagues at a previous job literally coming in and starting work half an hour before they were due to start unpaid, then it makes you look bad. Just get everyone to collectively come in same time.

  • Kempe on 29/11/2019 - 15:15
    -1

    You can legally stop 10 minutes early to wash your hands etc
    So if they want you to start early just leave early

  • lint on 29/11/2019 - 15:54
    +1

    If your shift starts at 9am, you're expected to be ready to work at that time. That means if you need to change, put your stuff away in a locker or something like that, you should arrive slightly earlier in order to be ready on time.

    That email isn't requiring anyone to arrive at least ten minutes earlier than their shift time, it's a word of advice that you should be ready at the rostered time. I don't believe anyone will be penalised for not following it, as long as they're on time for their shift.

    If they require check in via an app and it frequently takes too long to do so, I suggest raising this with management, particularly if you're marked as late due to the app and not because you're actually late. That way, you also have a record that this was not your fault and you've let them know.

    Forgive me if I sense a poor work ethic on the part of your "friend" here.

  • Viospeed on 29/11/2019 - 15:55
    +2

    They aren't requiring your friend to arrive 10 minutes earlier, they're "encouraging" it. Big difference.

    I don't see a problem with this, just sign in 1 min before rather than 1 minute after.

  • Findo on 29/11/2019 - 22:10
    +2

    Tell your ‘mate’ to find a salaried job. He/she might feel better stealing 10 minutes a day taking a dump and browsing OzBargain but he/she will be expected to finish their assigned work and work reasonable amounts of unpaid overtime.

    When I started a salaried role after graduating, I thought I was so clever taking shits on company time. I even installed an app to calculate how many dollars I could take from my employer. As of 1900h today, I’ve spent 22 hours and 4 minutes shitting on company time for a ‘profit’ of $1045 this financial year. This doesn’t include the time spent getting coffee most days (10 min or so). Yet, I am worse off than employees paid on an hourly basis because I spend at least 2 hours a day doing work related stuff in my own time (on top of at least 0.75-1.5 hours of accrued flex time), whether that be reviewing documents on the way to and from work, responding to emails after hours or thinking about work in bed.

    Even if there’s time in lieu on offer, good luck actually finding the right time to ask for a day or two of leave. Checking emails and replying to simple ones whilst on leave will rob your mate of another hour or two a year.

    Getting to work on time for an hourly rate doesn’t sound so bad anymore, does it?

    • wittyusername on 30/11/2019 - 16:27

      Salary is such a scam. "It's a bit of give and take" I was told, it seems like there is far more of me giving than receiving, especially in consulting!

      • Findo on 30/11/2019 - 16:39

        Yeah I realised quite quickly salaried roles aren’t all they appear to be. It seems being a contractor is the way to go!

  • Cave Fire on 30/11/2019 - 07:07

    is this the woolies distribution centre?

  • stringbean402 on 30/11/2019 - 07:30
    +2

    Their expectation is that you are ready to actually start work at your rostered time.

    Why should they pay to to stuff around, put your lunch in the fridge, put your shit in your locker etc?

    The work ethic of younger generations these days is pathetic.

    • [Deactivated] on 30/11/2019 - 13:44
      -4

      ok boomer

      • stringbean402 on 01/12/2019 - 20:15

        I'm 32 and i have a decent job… go figure

    • Serapis on 30/11/2019 - 15:15
      -1

      Because maybe if you require someone to attend early, you are legally required to pay them for it? Has nothing to do with ethics.

      Exception are sometimes people on salaries.

  • teaBagger on 30/11/2019 - 07:34
    +1

    What is the opposite of OK Boomer?

  • pwildnz on 30/11/2019 - 10:35

    Welcome to life….. It's normal to be ready for your shift…. Would you bitch about being docked because you showed up on time and took time to get ready

  • OBEY YOUR MASTERS on 30/11/2019 - 11:17
    +1

    Dude it's 10 minutes. Make yourself a coffee in the staff room or whatever before you start. Move on to other more important things.

  • Serapis on 30/11/2019 - 15:00

    No. Eg. If they require you to attend at 8:50 (even when work starts at 9), you are paid from 8:50 onwards. It's a big misconception unfortunately.

    Here's an old Fair Work media release to quote:
    http://www.fairwork.gov.au/about-us/news-and-media-releases/…

    MYTH 1: Employees don’t need to be paid for time spent opening and closing a store or attending training and meetings outside normal work hours.

    FACT: Employees must be paid for all the time that they are required to work. For example, if an employee is required to be at work at 7.45am to prepare for an 8am
    store opening, they need to be paid from 7.45am. If the employee is asked to stay back after work for a staff meeting or training session, they also need to be paid.

  • stealthpaw on 30/11/2019 - 17:14

    If you are doing job specific preparation (such as preparing food as a chef) then it should be paid. Otherwise not. Simple.

  • filfa on 30/11/2019 - 17:36

    10 mins, 30 mins, 2 mins, who cares.

    As long as you are on the floor at your rostered shift start you're fine.

    If you start at 10:00am, arrive at 10:00am, then you're late

  • iainmacsoul on 30/11/2019 - 18:37
    +1

    It all boils down to reasonable common sense.

    This thread is full of absolute total heroes poised like a coiled spring behind their desk at work for 37 minutes before someone rings the bell and they can dive in and OMG START WORKING NOWWWWWWWW.

    This is australia not a sweat shop economy, this is where you have a relaxed working atmosphere, have a few bevvies at lunch a couple of times a week and get your head down and work when you need to, make sure you work is done and done well without sweating and keeping one eye on the clock all day.

    if the bosses are reasonable then you go the extra mile for them they go the extra mile for you … working 'like you own the company' for someone that treats you like crap? no … this is Aus … unemployment is low, if he gets a bad feel from them, change job.

    (and before all the hard core uberstaff jump all over me, i've been in this country 10 years and only moved once due to a desire to change role, part of what i like about australia is the "no worries lifestyle" and I enjoy it every day)

    • whooah1979 on 30/11/2019 - 19:07

      Living in Canberra explains your post.

      • iainmacsoul on 30/11/2019 - 20:15

        then i advise you move, if the OP is standard attitude in 'the big smoke' then it aint worth it, enjoy your life.

        also, pretty sure unemployment is f**k all all over Australia :)

  • Johhny 2 balls on 30/11/2019 - 20:54

    Here is my 2 bob. Ive been both and employee and employer. As an employee I I always show up early it sends a clear message that you are organised and motivated (even if you are not). As an employer you do notice when and an employee drags themselves in at the last minute and leaves as soon as they can. When you choose who gets promoted it is a simple choice. Does this need further explanation?

  • [Deactivated] on 30/11/2019 - 20:55

    Depends on the relevant award.

    Manufacturing for example they can make you wait up to 30 minutes on site before clocking on.

    Once signed in, you get paid. Things like walking into factory (in above example) and across factory are paid. Walking up stairs (following sign in) should be paid.

    Note your friends award may differ. You haven't mentioned industry so we can't be specific.

  • Cave Fire on 30/11/2019 - 21:56

    Hi the OP just anted to know if it was legal. His title does say "Should I be paid…" so it kind of throws people off I would say. I think employers know they are wrong but do it anyway. They have limited payroll to assign each week, so ten minutes extra per worker would stretch the budget. Conversely, if they can save ten minutes per worker it also helps them a little. The people who complain will be the first to go unfortunately.

  • Punda on 30/11/2019 - 23:17

    Happens at my work with one certain person. Same excuse about traffic. Duh why not allow for traffic jams? He won’t switch to a later shift either. Tick tick his time is coming.

  • Brick Tamland on 01/12/2019 - 09:55

    I probably echoing the comments already here. But I've worked in a few retail stores over the years and its a pretty standard expectation that you come in a few minutes early so that you are ready to go at your start time.Never been paid for it either. Sometimes I'd go in 30 mins early and enjoy a coffee and chat with others in the tea room. Now I work in a corporate office environment and out of habit I still do the same thing. Rock up 5 mins early, get a coffee, water and then log in when I am ready to go…

    Seriously 10 minutes is not going to make or break anyone.

  • Yakuza85 on 01/12/2019 - 13:55

    Key word in that whole email is ENCOURAGE. Meaning “we would like you to be and would take a dim view if not.” But it’s not binding. Having said that, Your friend has a responsibility to ensure they are at their workstation for the start of their shift. Failing to turn up at the rostered time means they will be performance managed if not.

  • Dack Smith on 01/12/2019 - 14:20

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    You are there early at their behest, you did not do this for fun.

    They need to pay you every cent you are owed, and rightfully so.

    If you don't, the next thing will be not paying you for the first hour worked.

    Stand up for your rights

    Remember that they were the instigator

  • andmcg on 01/12/2019 - 18:11

    Unfortunately many employers get away with stretching the rules. They find ambiguity which allows them to make employees work 40 hour per week when the limit is supposed to be 38. I've even worked in a place that made me work 43 and only paid for 38. And also to discoraged leaving on time as well.

    Other work places discorage taking lunch breaks or toilet breaks.

    I would say that what they are doing is above board and the tone of the email is sounding like an unofficial warning. I'd be looking for another job if arriving early annoys you (your friend).

    Or balance it out by taking some extra toilet breaks. That's what I used to do.

    • dizzle on 01/12/2019 - 23:24
      +1

      "Unfortunately many employers get away with stretching the rules."

      As do many employees. I've seen my fair share of both.

      But what many people who agree that this should be paid time are not understanding, is that this is a standard letter that many HR depts will send out if an employee is regularly late to arrive/start work. It is used to eliminate any excuse they have for continuing this behaviour.

      The next step will be a sit down with the manager to find out why you are regularly late - Train/Bus/Traffic, they'll suggest getting the earlier bus; family life, organisation tips or a change in roster; oversleeping, get to bed earlier

      Then a performance management plan where they ask you to sign a form saying you will not be late X amount of times in Y period of time. If you don't sign it, then you're saying you intend not to do your job.

      If you're a good worker, they'll try other things to keep you. If you're not, then they have proof they have tried to help and will work you out of the business.

  • blehgg on 01/12/2019 - 21:21

    Can I dock your pay every time you're late then too?

    • dizzle on 01/12/2019 - 23:10

      Actually yes :) but I think I agree with you anyway.

  • Croshema on 02/12/2019 - 21:27
    +3

    No matter what mode of transport I use to arrive at work, I aim to be at least 10 minutes early, traffic, public disturbance, blocked footpath, whatever, outside of a few minutes to gather your thoughts these extra minutes are leeway to not being late.

    If you think you can arrive on time, to the minute every day, chances are you will be late sometimes, as stated.

    I expect people in my department to be on site, dressed and ready 5 minutes before shift starts, I don't care if they are to the minute (or late) for one offs, but I expect the norm to be 5 minutes early, most happily arrive 10 minutes early, time for a coffee and catch up.

    I would never expect unpaid 'work' to be completed, but attempting to roll in at 06:59 everyday will not help your work days under me.

    I will repeat, I do not expect work to be completed in this time, but I expect you.

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