Hi everyone
There seems to be a number of forums in relation to the Jobkeeper Payment. Rather than having multiple threads, ask me questions in relation to the JobKeeper Payment and I will try my best to answer otherwise hopefully somebody else can as well.
Background: I am an accountant with years of experience
My partner has been a casual employee at a restaurant in Sydney for nearly 2 years now and she has not had a shift for nearly 2 months. Her boss is now saying she needs to work 20 hours a week to be eligible for the job seeker payment. Is this true?
If she is considered a 'long term casual' then the actual quantity of hours doesn't seem to matter - We have one long-term staff member doing 4 hours each Sat for more than 10 years, and she's definitely qualified.
It does come down to what the employer decides though, and there doesn't seem to be any appeals/disputes process if you're not 'nominated'.
Not true. The legislation is one in all in. If you exclude staff who meet the criteria you could be up for allegaions of adevrse action, discrimination and may well be asked to explain yourself by the ATO as well.
Doesn't sound right. Did he give her the form for Job Keeper to fill out?
No form, owner just sent a mass text to all casuals that if they need want the payment they need to work 20 hours per week. This is to keep the business open as.
Report them immediately.
Without knowing all the details this sounds very suss and probably not legal. I assume the business has released they may be able to get an army of casual workers on $750 a week, fully paid by the government and at zero cost to the business, and can direct them to work 20-28 hours a week. The business will probably lie about their eligibility.
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: It's legal and that's exactly how the legislation is designed, to give employers an army of $0 cost labour to keep them alive while keeping the most people possible from bumping up the unemployment numbers.
While technically the legislation requires you to pay the minimum of $1500 for all eligible workers, for casuals they can simply dismiss those that don't 'volunteer'.
Technically not true to say 'if you want the payment you need to work 20 hours per week' though. Someone that hasn't had a shift for 2 months might not be considered eligible anyway.
Someone that hasn't had a shift for 2 months might not be considered eligible anyway.
Duh. Why do you think I said report them?
It's not legal.
That's not how Job Keeper works. If he hasn't fired you, and he applied for Job Keeper he has to offer it to all staff. You may want to report him or get some advice from an expert on how to proceed.
He can request you to work some hours, and those hours are counted under the Job Keeper payment, but he cant withhold payments if say you do not work for 1 week.
@morebunnings: It's exactly the sort of behaviour it encourages though. With casuals they can be simply given no shifts / made redundant and thus not get JobKeeper. Thus while it's kind of dodgy to say that you need to work 20 hours per week to be given the payment, it's completely expected that employers will choose only to keep the employees what provide the best value for money by 'asking' those who work less to increase their hours and reducing the hours of those that work more as allowed under the legislation.
While they can't 'make' people work more it essentially works out that way.
@[Deactivated]: Hi guys,
Really thank you for taking your time out to provide more information in this matter. Just an update the owner has now decided to terminate the casual employees and only provide the payment to the full time employees. I know it's definitely challenging times for all businesses but this is just unfair especially to those who have been loyal(like my partner) to the business for so long.
Thanks again guys
@Inspectrg: This may well be illegal activity from the employer.
Please call Fair Work Australia immediately
With casuals they can be simply given no shifts / made redundant and thus not get JobKeeper.
You have 15 posts in this thread and so far 3 I've bothered to read are utterly wrong. What's your angle?
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: If you want to say they're wrong you have to actually say why rather than downvoting and making shit up like 'it's illegal'.
I deal with the real world not how I want things to be. For things to be illegal there actually has to be legislation that makes it so.
Thanks for your post that points out that the employee can submit the notification, that was useful although in practical terms won't change much, and isn't at all useful for casual employees, and certainly didn't make what you were replying to 'utterly wrong'.
This is illegal activity. Call Fair Work immediately (and Channel 9)
the definition of a casual eligible for Jobseeker is that they have been employed for a minimum of 12 months before March 1 2020 and are working regular and systematic hours (working almost every week with regularity of hours to some degree. Depending on the reason for not working in 2 months (would need to be exceptional - major illness, family carer responsibilities) then unfortunately it may be that your wife is ineligible as her hours are no regular and systematic.
The employer has some flex as to whom they identify as regular and systematic so your wife should plead her case as a long term casual who plans to stay with the business for the long haul and ask them to help her out with the Jobseeker payment
Under law, your wife may well have a claim to be made permanent if your wife has worked for 2 years mostly regularly and systematically.
Call Fair Work and speak to them about the application for permanent work!
op, i am self employed and business has grinded to a stop and i have not done my company tax return for 2019 yet nor submitted any bas statements since March 2019 they are well over due which i plan to submit all soon before the 14 may deadline. will i still qualify for the jobkeeper being the only employee and director ? i also have a abn as a sole trader i guess i can only claim using one of the abn's? can i still do work once things start to pick up and get the jobkeeper? at what stage will it stop if my % of income happens to return to 100% down the track?
Not 100% sure, but I thought I read somewhere that the 2019-2019 tax returns must have been submitted by 12 March 2020 to qualify for JobKeeper.
https://taxandsupernewsroom.com.au/jobkeeper-your-questions-…
There's a couple of answers in there that should help.
The tax return would need to have been lodged by 12 March 2020, or a later time allowed by the commissioner. We do not know whether the commissioner will allow a later time in relation to the JobKeeper scheme. There are statements in the ATO information concerning the cash flow boost that if a tax return is lodged late due to an approved deferral with the ATO, the ATO will accept the late lodgement for the purposes of the cash flow boost. We do not know whether the ATO will adopt the same attitude for the JobKeeper scheme.
i am in the same boat, h ave not lodged as technically ido have till june, can anyone confirm this^ can we still claim if we have not lodged tax return for the 2019 year yet and 13th march already passed
By 12 March 2020 you would have had to either:
So you may still be eligible if you have had a BAS lodged after 1 July 2018 showing any sales made (for example September 2018 quarter BAS) .
In addition to this, you will need to meet the 30% fall in turnover requirement as normal.
Hi Riseandfall,
So what about Sole Traders who are not registered for GST and always submit their Tax Returns legally and within the ATO requirements with a Tax Agent in April-May of each year!
Does this mean we are going to be disadvantaged and are NOT eligible for the JobKeeper allowance simply because of our lodgement date and have doing wrong! :O
Please advise?
Regards,
BB
Have you included your business income in the 2019 income tax return and it has been lodged?
if so, you should be eligible (provided the turnover, residency etc. tests have also been met).
@Westpac: NO. As I said 'always submit Tax Returns legally and within the ATO requirements with a Tax Agent in April-May of each year!".
So it is yet to be prepared and submitted as per ALL previous years! And may even be delayed because of CONVID-19 and business flatlining etc! :/
So, does this mean we are going to be disadvantaged and are NOT eligible for the JobKeeper allowance simply because of our normal lodgement date and have done nothing wrong! :O
@Binaryboy: I am in EXACTLY the same position (well my wife is). My accountant is not very proactive so initially said no, but im hoping something can be done for people like us!
I also have my own business but i work full time so not eligible, which really sucks… but at least I still have my full time job.
@navegante88: i also am exactly in the same position as binaryboy, this is what i copy pasted from a link someone sent earlier, we need to get to the bottom of this, i was planning on lodging my tax return in may so 13th march already passed, does that mean we dont qualify? this paragraph is also unsure, we need to find out..
QUOTE
""The tax return would need to have been lodged by 12 March 2020, or a later time allowed by the commissioner. We do not know whether the commissioner will allow a later time in relation to the JobKeeper scheme. There are statements in the ATO information concerning the cash flow boost that if a tax return is lodged late due to an approved deferral with the ATO, the ATO will accept the late lodgement for the purposes of the cash flow boost. We do not know whether the ATO will adopt the same attitude for the JobKeeper scheme.""
well ive applied for it lets see what happens.
As will I, fingers crossed. I'm assuming it's an oversight in their part and hopefully get rectified down the track.
I'm in the same position. My 2018-2019 tax return hasn't been completed yet. The deadline for this is May, but looks to have been extended until June when I log into MyGov. Why must we have completed a tax return before March 12? There would be a lot of sole traders who haven't submitted anything yet. I don't submit BAS statements.
You may still be eligible. The ATO website updated stating:
We have the discretion to give further time, but only in limited circumstances, including if you:
The first point above may apply to your situation. The ATO has not provided any more guidance on that.
@Westpac: Nice one. Cheers for your help, it's much appreciated. Will enroll now and see how it goes.
I do book keeping for 4 family trusts, I have already enrolled for job keeper for all 4 via myGovID. It appears that 3 may not be eligable because the company of the trust does not pay wages but draws from them as a trust distribution. Anyway see what happens…
I've applied for the Job Seeker as I'm a beneficiary for one of the trusts since all the directors are claiming the job keeper payments for each trust.
Are applying as an employee or a sole trader? I'd a sole trader isn't it just based on whether your revenue has dropped?
It will depend on who the beneficiaries of the family trusts are. Individual beneficiaries who meet the residency requirements above and are actively involved in the business should be eligible.
My wife and I have a partnership and I am struggling with the definition of GST turnover. We don't sell anything, we simply do some online IT support work for someone overseas and he pays us weekly in euros. Nothing to do with GST and turnover is under $30k a year.
We are no longer getting any income from that so i feel under the partnership we would be eligible for one fortnightly payment (doesn't matter how many people are in the partnership apparently, you only get one which is fine).
Situations like this will keep accountants in business.
This is a technical question and someone with GST expertise may answer this.
Generally though, only Australian sales are included in the turnover calculations. If those sales have not fallen by at least 30%, you will not be eligible for.
Any drop in international sales is not included in the calculations.
We don't have any sales at all. There must be plenty of companies that do not sell things. The income is entirely for hours worked.
I will seek professional advice though, thanks
Only Australia wide sales and/or services can be included, international are excluded.
Services are considered sales. It doesn't have to be only goods.
GST = Goods and Services Tax.
@SgtBatten
Yikes.
Can you clarify this, my uni friend has an online business selling stuff on eBay USA, he pays tax in aus, it’s his full time gig, but you said only goods or services sold in Australia? Does that mean he can’t apply for job keeper even tho his income has decreased by like 60 percent
That's what I'm seeing now.
@SgtBatten: can you show me where you saw this? like a link or a copy pasted paragraph with link to where you got it from, i mean at the end of the day it would be good to call the ato and ask right?
@striker5950: I just read a bunch of stuff yesterday, it wasn't one link sorry. Essentially what everyone else has replied me is right. International business does not attract GST and is not included for the purpose of a GST turnover test. My GST turnover has gone from 0 to 0 despite my business income dropping 100%
I found the 'GST turnover' terminology a bit confusing as well, I found this explained it a bit clearer: https://www.smartcompany.com.au/coronavirus/gst-turnover-job…
Hmm might be shit outta luck then. I don't know what country the guy paying us lived in but i'm pretty sure it wasn't Australia. Ahh well, was a good couple of years while it lasted.
don't you pay tax on that income?
@impoze: sure do. submit a partnership tax return each year and split it 50 50 with the two of us. the income gets input into our personal returns as partnership income and we pay regular income tax on it.
@SgtBatten: you missed out something important, we were talkin about ABN sole traders.
if you look at this section, what you are quoting does not apply to ABN sole trader holders.
this is what you are quoting:
Eligible business entities
Your entity is eligible if:
on 1 March 2020, it carried on a business in Australia
it satisfies the fall in turnover test for the relevant period
it satisfied certain conditions as at 12 March 2020, being
it had an ABN on 12 March 2020, and
it had lodged, on or before 12 March 2020, at least one of
a 2018–19 income tax return showing that it had an amount included in its assessable income in relation to it carrying on a business, or
HOWEVER this below is what applies to ABN SOLE TRADERS, the above quoted condition for 12 march and the requirement of lodgement before 12th march does not apply for sole traders. see below.
Eligible business participant
Your non-employee individual is an eligible business participant of your entity for the fortnight if they meet all of the following:
They are an individual not employed by your entity.
They are actively engaged in the business carried on by your entity (at 1 March 2020 and for the fortnight you are claiming).
They are one of the following (at 1 March 2020 and for the fortnight you are claiming)
a sole trader
a partner in the partnership
an adult beneficiary of the trust
a shareholder or director in the company.
As at 1 March 2020, they are both
aged at least 16
an Australian resident (within the meaning of section 7 of the Social Security Act 1991), or a resident for income tax purposes and the holder of a special category (Subclass 444) visa.
They are not currently receiving government parental leave or Dad and Partner Pay.
They are not currently totally incapacitated for work and receiving payments under an Australian workers’ compensation law in respect of their total incapacity to work.
They are not an employee (other than a casual employee) of another entity.
They have given your entity (or us, if a sole trader) a JobKeeper nomination notice.
They have not previously given another entity, or us, a JobKeeper nomination notice.
Note: your entity cannot have more than one eligible business participant.
at the bottom it says the following:
Enrol for the JobKeeper payment
"If you are a sole trader", you can nominate yourself as the eligible business participant during the online enrolment process in the Business Portal or in ATO online services using myGov.
we were talkin about ABN sole traders
you replied to a question posed to myself asking if paying tax made me eligible, it does not.
My business is a partnership which falls in the same group as sole traders, so it's the same thing
on 1 March 2020, it carried on a business in Australia
it satisfies the fall in turnover test for the relevant period
this still applies which I do not meet.
They are not an employee (other than a casual employee) of another entity.
I had not seen this point before which rules me out anyway, I have a job.
@SgtBatten: i see, yeh in your case you dont apply, but for anyone else who is a sole trader and has not lodged before 13 march they still can get the payment as that is not a requirement for sole traders as shown on their site.
Just to clarify GST stands for Goods & Services Tax, not just sale of goods chief. International sales (or services) are not counted in GST anyway.
Are you also getting taxed by the European entity you are getting paid from because your earlier answer sounds super casual by not knowing what country the guy paying you is from just that it's in Euros?
You claim to get under 30k, which is then split two ways per the partnership so under 15k each..basically tax free threshold (below 16k) so you don't pay tax on it if this is the only income you claim.
If that last statement is correct, and if I was an ATO Agent I'd investigate on the basis that you would possibly be getting more money but claiming only that amount to avoid paying tax altogether.
Could all just be a coincidence.
We have jobs in Aus also so we are paying tax on all of it.
I've had an accountant do the partnership returns so that's all square.
So we are not eligible as I said/noted in another comment.
If you did not work for a week due to being stood down and just started getting paid job keeper, can an employer ask you to make up for the hours not worked by dividing your hourly wage by the $750/week?
Also can an employer request you to do work that is normally out of your scope? For example, you are an office worker and the employer wants you to do some painting for the office?
If you did not work for a week due to being stood down and just started getting paid job keeper, can an employer ask you to make up for the hours not worked by dividing your hourly wage by the $750/week?
No. They stood you down. If they had work for you, but stood you down anyway, it was an illegitimate stand down.
Also can an employer request you to do work that is normally out of your scope? For example, you are an office worker and the employer wants you to do some painting for the office?
Yes. Sort of. I think this aspect is still being threshed out. The unions are furious. Allowance for this was added at the 11th hour.
OP may know more here.
They can't make you work additional hours now for pay that was for a previous pay period. If you do more work in this pay period than the $1500/fortnight then you are owed that in addition to the $1500/fortnight. Just tough for them if they stood you down previously. If it's still in the same pay period and you would normally work those hours it's a little less clear as the $1500/fortnight is pro-rated over the normal pay period (Eg monthly).
Yes they can ask you do work that is not part of your normal duties, this was a measure broadly supported by the unions as it was negotiated and agreed to with the ACTU while designing the package, in recognition that it will keep more people in jobs.
There are limits though, eg, the employer couldn't get you to paint their house, or do some plumbing if you're not qualified. Also if they're not eligible for JobKeeper they can't make use of these additional powers.
Specifically one of the examples given as to where this may be used is a restaurant getting waiters to make deliveries.
Division 4—Duties, location and days of work
18 789GE Duties of work
(1) If:
(a) after the commencement of this section, an employer of an employee directed the employee to perform any duties during a period (the relevant period) that are within the employee’s skill and competency; and
(b) when the direction was given, the employer qualified for the jobkeeper scheme; and
(c) those duties are safe, having regard to (without limitation) the nature and spread of COVID-19; and
(d) in a case where the employee was required to have a licence or qualification in order to perform those duties—the employee had the licence or qualification; and
(e) those duties are reasonably within the scope of the employer’s business operations; and
(f) the employer becomes entitled to one or more jobkeeper
payments for the employee:
(i) for a period that consists of or includes the relevant period; or
(ii) for periods that, when considered together, consist of or include the relevant period; the direction is authorised by this section.
(2) This section has effect despite a designated employment provision.
My friend is a full time casual worker for last few years through an agency. She only has 2 or 3 shifts/week(less than $1500/fortnight) lately and the agency did not say anything about Jobkeeper.
What should she do now? Just waiting or call and ask about jobseeker or …
She should call Centrelink and seek Jobseeker for the time being.
Is the job keeper income taxed as normal employee income? I know the employer gets $1500 and has to give it all to the employee, but will the employee eventually have to pay income tax on it?
Yes it is taxed from my understanding. It's $1,500 gross.
For the employer: Required to withhold as per normal. For most employees, a payment of $1,500 per fortnight before tax will be subject to approximately $192 of PAYG withholding. The employee will essentially receive a net payment of $1,308 per fortnight.
For the employee: Assessable income and included in the tax return.
Thanks, not how it was explained by my employer, there is a lot of confusion going around!
if you are working zero hours
you get 1500 and pay 192 tax. no super.
employer gets 1500. net zero.
if you are working X hours you would normally be paid 500 for
you get 1500 and pay 192 tax. also 48 in super.
employer gets 1500. net negative of 48. but uses your labour.
if you work Y hours you would normally be paid 2000 for.
you are paid 2000 (-tax). also 190 super is paid.
employer gets 1500. net negative of 690 but is getting discounted labour.
in the first two examples the employer can optionally pay the super on the full 1500. good luck negotiating that.
Yes, the employer gets $1,500 then deducts PAYG Withholding and pays the employee the net amount as you would if they earned that amount normally.
If an employer is not giving people shifts in order to 'cover' the hours the JKP calculate to be for them, and instead will use their annual leave hours to cover it (leaving 2 weeks left), is that legal? Wouldn't that make this whole thing redundant for workers who saved up their leave, in that they would be better off resigning and getting paid their annual leave out and getting Jobseeker (which from what I understand works out to be worth the same amount anyway) instead? If this is legal can someone refer me to evidence of why so I can have a read myself? Thanks!
There's some good information on JobKeeper and leave here:
https://employsure.com.au/blog/jobkeeper-payment-faqs/#secti…
I believe if the employer is not giving shifts, that amounts to the employee being stood down rather than coming out of their leave entitlements.
But yes, an unscrupulous employer can force paid annual leave to be whittled down during JobKeeper. Whether an employee can be forced to take annual leave will depend on what award they are under:
https://coronavirus.fairwork.gov.au/coronavirus-and-australi…
My brother who is a full time employee has been stood down as there is no work for him to do.
He is eligible for the job keeper payments.
He currently has 6 weeks of annual leave.
His work has just informed him that with the recent changes, his leave will be reduced to two weeks BUT the $1500 fortnightly payment is inclusive of the 4 weeks leave that will be used up.
My understanding was that if you take AL, it would be payed on top of the $1500?
Just for clarification, your brother had 6 weeks of accrued annual leave, of which his employer has made him take 4 weeks paid leave, is that correct?
In that case, if his usual gross fortnightly income is $1500 or over, he would not benefit from JobKeeper at all as he would be paid his usual income during the annual leave, it isn't paid on top of JobKeeper.
So, say he makes $2800 a fortnight, this is how it goes:
There is a legal difference between being stood down and being made to take annual leave. In this case, your brother is better off being stood down without pay as he'd receive $1500 per fortnight from JobKeeper without expending his accrued annual leave, which he can then use later.
Yes it's legal. If they resign there will be an 8 week waiting period for JobSeeker and this may be extended by any annual leave you were paid out. The aim of the scheme isn't to benefit employees it's to keep businesses afloat and the connection there to save businesses from having to re-hire again when they reopen / business improves.
The actual bill as passed is here:
https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bi…
The objective is to keep you in a job. If you resign will you qualify for jobseeker?
Annual leave is there to be used up each year. Usually you can forced to use excess of 4 weeks, now I'd an employer is crafty then it's excess of 2 weeks.
Usually you can accrue up to 8 weeks annual leave before being directed to take it, 10 weeks if you do shift work, but that might have previously been varied based on your award / EBA. Now it's 2 weeks across the board for businesses getting JobKeeper.
I'm not sure if it used to be less than 8 weeks as the FWA was updated a few years ago.
My daughter worked for two years in a café and then went overseas for 7 months. She returned to the same café at the end of February with a new contract and worked for two weeks before it shut down. Is she elgible for jobkeepers?
was she full time, part time, casual?
If she was employed on a casual basis she would not be eligible as she needs to be with the employer for at least 12 months on a regular and systematic basis by 1 March 2020.
she won't be eligible, as she only started her employment again this February, she has to be working or have worked with same employer for the last 12 months.
If Part Time or Full Time then yes. If a casual contract, then no as your daugter does not meet the 12 monh service eligibility criteria
I am a sole trader under a company/trust structure. When I applied the form I ticked the box that I intended to claim as the eligible business participant. In the help it said to enter 0 in the number of employees but when I did that it came up with a red error saying I needed to enter at least one employee, and I could not press the submit button. I ended up entering 1 for the employee and all was good.
I am now thinking they may pay me twice, 1 for eligible business participant and 1 for my employee ( I have none ). I figured if that happened I would call them and return the money.
What do you think, What should I have done?
ATO advised that they are aware and will rectify the issue. Many people have reported the same issue and did your approach.
Thanks heaps!
Nevermind! the question answered
Can casuals not earning $1500 a fortnight be eligible for it? I have a couple working 20-25 hours but don't get to $750 a week.
Provided they have been working for longer than 12 months, yes they can. However, their pay will need to be topped up so they receive the $1,500.
They will need to contact their employer and see if their employer is eligible first.
However, their pay will need to be topped up so they receive the $1,500.
Can you elaborate more on this please? oh nevermind I get it now :)
Sole trader here and I’m up 40% in revenue compared to last month and up 67% compared to last year… is there anything I can claim?
Good for you and I hope you keep doing well.
Jobkeeper/Jobseeker and other COVID-19 'incentives' is to provide assistance for people facing hardships so shouldn't apply to you.
at least 40% increase in revenue and you still want some money from the government?
Why not? I thought some countries are handing it too every citizen regardless of their income,.. but who knows I may be wrong.
Please don't feed the trolls.
Well I was genuinely being honest anyways. I thought they increased some gst tax deduction thing that I may be eligible for but oh wellz
Instant asset write off increased to 150k. Go buy a car.
@Soluble: Already have one and still paying it off until next year. I would rather buy something that would increase revenue and not something that isn’t needed since I already bought a car for business.
@centrelink: Then work out what will increase revenue and buy away. I'd purchased a car just before all this went down so worked out well.
@Soluble: I'm confused at asseset write off? Do I just get the GST back only instantly? Also would I be elidgeable even with improved revenue compared to last month/year? Rent reduction for leasing a warehouse possible? I have not bothered to ask the landlord yet seeing as there is no need, but I take what ever I can get legally.
@centrelink: You claim the full GST amount on equipment regardless of the new write-off.
Here's the easiest explanation I could find:
https://www.finstro.com.au/instant-asset-write-off-explained…
Yes you're eligible even with an increase in revenue(I'm in the same boat)
As for a rent reduction, landlords are always negotiable and may be more so in the current climate.
@Soluble: wow, so expenditure that is under $150k does not need to be depreciated and can be costed straight to the P&L?
Please don't feed the trolls.
Unless you're a billy goat…
@Antikythera: nope. register is getting a new CRN.