Staff on JobKeeper Won't Come Back to Work

Lcainen on 26/05/2020 - 11:57

This is a vent as much as anything so apologies in advance.

My wife and I own a small business that was forced to shutdown back in March. In good faith we put eligible staff (2 people) onto the Jobkeeper program to keep them going through the shutdown and have them return when we open. We are now able to reopen from 1 June and we have a staff member who has been ignoring txts and phone calls since the announcement (on Saturday). They have finally messaged back this morning saying they are unable to return to work citing some BS reasons. Yesterday was the fortnightly Jobkeeper payment date so it now makes sense why they did not respond until this morning. In hindsight I should have held the payment back until they responded - I now feel stupid about not seeing this beforehand.

I have now learnt that they have been studying a completed unrelated course during the shutdown and never intended to return to work. Although we will (surely??) receive the money back we are now in a situation where we will be understaffed for our reopening in less than a week and we are expecting it to be extremely busy. This person was a core staff member and we are scrambling to find staff but it's proving difficult if not impossible.

I'm not sure what recourse is available, but even if there was something it is probably not worth the hassle of pursuing. I just feel so annoyed that this person has gamed us and the system.

/vent.

Financial

Comments

                          • Thrawn on 28/05/2020 - 18:39

                            @bobbified: Where else is international students gonna go.. USA, UK ? Not much choices left if you want to study in a covid19 free country (except NZ)

                            • [Deactivated] on 29/05/2020 - 13:18
                              +1

                              @Thrawn: They don't need to go anywhere. Most of them have a better education system in their home country than we do here. For eg:

                              A global study of more than half a million 15-year-olds has found Australian students lag 3.5 years behind their Chinese counterparts in maths — and their performance in all three major subjects is in long-term decline.

                              Source

                              Last time I checked, The university of Melbourne didn't even make it in the top 50 world university ranking. Monash was 102.

                              The vast majority of students only come here to get PR. It's a well-known fact.

                • PVA on 28/05/2020 - 09:26

                  @cainen: I know of some businesses that have done just that. They want to look after their staff even if they can’t get JobKeeper.

              • berry580 on 27/05/2020 - 22:59
                +3

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Yes Zeggie, they had the right to not return.
                They had the right to not respond to their gonna be ex-boss until they money is in the bank.
                They had the right to deceive their gonna be ex-boss that they intend to return although they probably never did.
                They have the right to never work in their whole life and live off Centrelink.

                Happy?

          • sarahlump on 26/05/2020 - 17:28
            +22

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: If OP's staff member was a casual they don't have to come in unless they want to. Imagine expecting full time staff requirements from a casual. Recent court cases have been trying to remove the abusive casual employment exploits from dodgy employers. sounds like a bad employer is angry that a person is as savvy as they are.

            • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 18:34

              @sarahlump:

              that a person is as savvy as they are.

              Let's see how savvy that person is now that they are no longer eligible for the jobkeeper payments. I sure hope they have a backup plan because from what I've heard the jobseeker application process can take a while.

              • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 19:00
                +21

                @[Deactivated]: After tax the difference in JK and JS is like $94 bucks. I doubt the employee will suffer from that.

                The application process isn't hard.

                Sounds like they want to study to better themselves, want to take advantage of this downturn to upskill, and don't want to work in a shop run by a part-time boss whoa has a day job and who just turfed all their coworkers. Good on them.

                • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 19:02
                  +4

                  @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                  Sounds like they want to study to better themselves, want to take advantage of this downturn to upskill,

                  Good on them if that's the case.

                  • stringbean402 on 27/05/2020 - 20:58
                    +4

                    @[Deactivated]: Exactly they had what sounds like a crappy casual job. Great time to upskill and not go broke doing it.

                    The OPs business has not been financially damaged in any way so far. They will have a cost of retraining a new staff member. I suspect they are pissed because they will no longer be getting $750/week of free labour, now they have to actually pay the wage.

          • orson on 27/05/2020 - 01:22
            +4

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: You are right. Casual staff don't get benefits etc so how can they be "core" staff.

            • dizzle on 27/05/2020 - 12:59
              +2

              @orson: I've had some great casuals. Some were with me for over 2 years. They didn't want permanent roles because they got the casual loading or needed the occasional day off that permanent would make difficult.

              I considered them core staff and would have them training other people.

          • peppermint420 on 28/05/2020 - 08:30
            +1

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: this, i would have literally zero loyalty to an employer like OP, what goes around comes around.

          • HeyHeyHeyIsItADeal on 28/05/2020 - 17:57

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: When the emoployer games the system they're happy and then when a employee games them they get mad… LOL You are so right. sad sad.

  • Hellfire on 26/05/2020 - 12:05

    What is their notice period and final day of work?

    • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 12:07
      +4

      They don't need to provide any if they are casual staff.

      • Hellfire on 26/05/2020 - 12:08
        +7

        Being casual isn't mentioned in the OP.

    • mskeggs on 26/05/2020 - 12:53
      +22

      If they are a permanent employee, tell them you need them to work out their notice period.
      If you employed them as a casual, then what is the complaint, exactly?

      • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 13:30
        +7

        If you employed them as a casual, then what is the complaint, exactly?

        That they are still entitled to the full $1500 fortnightly JK payments even if they refuse shifts and work zero hours in that fortnight.

        Op needs to terminate them asap if that is the case.

      • dizzle on 27/05/2020 - 13:05

        This is great in theory, but I've seldom met someone in this position that I would want to work out their final 1-2 weeks. It could do more harm than good.

        I'd suggest just pay their notice (which you may be able to use jobkeeper for) and use the time to find and train someone new.

        Realistically it seems a retail job and there should be plenty of people out there right now with experience. You may just need to take the risk and hire someone quickly to cover the rosters. If your training doesn't bring them up to scratch, let them go within your probationary period.

  • holdenmg on 26/05/2020 - 12:05
    +6

    Maybe you will find someone even better…

    Have they resigned?
    WHAT HAPPENS IF MY EMPLOYEE RESIGNS? If an employee for whom you are receiving the JobKeeper Payment resigns, you must notify the ATO. You may need to refund some money to the ATO.
    https://treasury.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/JobKeepe…

    There are probably $tate and Federal Government incentives for Employing/Training someone new as well.

    • cainen on 26/05/2020 - 12:17
      +11

      Thank you. Yes we will notify ATO and stop paying them Jobkeeper going forward.

      • kanmen on 26/05/2020 - 12:52
        +7

        I think it might do you a favour to notify this employee of that too. Just because you're going to be their first port of call next payment cycle when they realise they haven't been paid. Be clear why you are stopping the payments and maybe just also check with the ATO if this is the right step forward.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 13:02
        +24

        Maybe notify the staff BEFORE you contact ATO . They might change their mind about not being available for the re-opening if they realise they won't get paid .

  • Hithere on 26/05/2020 - 12:07
    +16

    I'm not sure what recourse is available

    Maybe offer them more money and better conditions to stay until you can employ a replacement.

    Apart from being sacked the 2 main reasons people leave a job are 1) More pay, 2) A better more interesting job.

    • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 12:09
      +5

      This is different. They work,they get paid. They don't come to work , they still get paid. Why would they turn up?

      • Hellfire on 26/05/2020 - 12:10
        +13

        They were considered eligible for jobkeeper so no rorting going on there.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 12:15
          +2

          The jobkeeper scheme is a stupid system. Not much thought went into it. I know so many international students who have been made redundant because they are not eligible for the payments and their employers are struggling to replace them.

          • cainen on 26/05/2020 - 12:27
            +1

            @[Deactivated]: We have a staff member who is on a Bridging Visa that I really wanted to put on Jobkeeper but they weren't eligible. They're coming back to work for us thankfully but they've had zero income for nearly the past 3 months.

            • serpserpserp on 26/05/2020 - 14:18
              +11

              @cainen:

              they've had zero income for nearly the past 3 months.

              How come you couldn't help them out with profits from the business you made prior?

                • sarahlump on 26/05/2020 - 17:32
                  +3

                  @cainen: You can't actually expect a person to have 3-6 months of expenses saved up. Living out of reality isn't good.

                • serpserpserp on 27/05/2020 - 16:11
                  +1

                  @cainen:

                  Or maybe I did help them out.

                  So which one was it?

                  • cainen on 27/05/2020 - 16:23

                    @serpserpserp: I did. I have just explained this a bit later on in the thread.

          • Antikythera on 26/05/2020 - 19:54
            +1

            @[Deactivated]:

            not eligible for the payments and their employers are struggling to replace them.

            why would they replace them? any new employee would not be entitled to jobKeeper anyhow. so just pay normal unsubsidised wages to the original employee.

            • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 19:58

              @Antikythera: I could have phrased that better. They weren't eligible for jobseeker and were let go in March. The business is re-opening in June and the owner can't find new staff to replace those temporary migrants that were retrenched earlier in the year. I know that at least 3 of those employees were repatriated home by their consulate on their request. They didn't want to stay here if they didn't have a job.

      • xuqi on 26/05/2020 - 12:14
        +7

        "They don't come to work , they still get paid."

        Wrong, as the business was 'shutdown', so the employee had nowhere to work.

        "In good faith we put eligible staff (2 people) onto the Jobkeeper program to keep them going through the shutdown and have them return when we open."

        Just like any job, or company staff may choose to leave, or be terminated.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 12:17

          Not quite. For example, disability day centres were shutdown but employees who were eligible for the jobkeeper scheme were still required to go to work. They were given other "meaningful tasks" to complete.

          The Fair Work Act JobKeeper provisions enable qualifying employers to give ‘JobKeeper enabling directions’ to eligible employees. In certain circumstances, this means that employers can temporarily:

          • stand down an employee (including by reducing their hours or days of work)
          • change an employee’s usual duties
          • change an employee’s location of work.
          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 12:27
            +5

            @[Deactivated]:

            They don't come to work , they still get paid

            They don't "still get paid" if OP simply terminates the employee like any competent employer would do in this situation.

            Until the date they re-open or they terminate the employee, they must pass on the JK payments.

        • tsunamisurfer on 26/05/2020 - 12:24
          +2

          This company is re-opening.

          They have work and the employee is not wanting to come back.

          • xuqi on 26/05/2020 - 12:26
            +7

            @tsunamisurfer: Its within their right to refuse to work, just as much the OP is within his/her right to terminate the employment, and look for another person to fill the position.

  • xuqi on 26/05/2020 - 12:10
    +28

    "I'm not sure what recourse is available"

    What do you mean by recourse? If the employee can't return to work for you when you re-open, then terminate the position and move on.

    • GG57 on 26/05/2020 - 12:15
      +6

      Exactly.
      OP just needs to advise the ATO, the JobKeeper funding stops for that person, no further payments to them.

    • Antikythera on 26/05/2020 - 19:59
      +23

      but the OP needs staff. and wants the government to pay 1500pf of wages for the next 3 months. any new hire wont be eligible for jobKeeper. OP is missing out on free labour.

  • ssquid on 26/05/2020 - 12:17
    +2

    Your recourse is you give them a shit reference.

    • xuqi on 26/05/2020 - 12:24
      +13

      I wouldn't even do that as there can be repercussions. It's simpler to terminate and move on.

      OP has no reason to fee the way they do:

      "I just feel so annoyed that this person has gamed us and the system."

      No one gamed anyone. The employee has the right to change jobs. The employer (OP) was in this instance was looking to hold on to the worker using JobKeeper, as it would have made re-opening easier/simpler.

      • ssquid on 26/05/2020 - 12:26
        +12

        Ignoring texts/phone calls and making up excuses not to come in is reason enough not to recommend someone for a position.

        • sangohan on 26/05/2020 - 16:45
          +1

          You don't need to make any judgement in a job reference. You simply just tell them what they are like, what they did on the job etc.

          And in any case, the employee is probably gonna not use the OP's as a reference since they've just shafted them.

        • xuqi on 27/05/2020 - 12:56
          +5

          I've had a guy (boss of sorts) beg for my help in cleaning up their online image, after an ex. employee (who he couldn't prove) created social media, youtube accounts, to trash talk his business.

          He treated the ex employee like crap, but the payback had left his business reeling as clients refused to do business with him, after seeing / finding info posted about his business online.

          It's always easier to be the bigger man/woman and move on.

          • tarb on 27/05/2020 - 18:43

            @xuqi: Dont know why the downvotes for xuqi. Even just leaving bad social media reviews (google/facebook/yelp/etc) can be pretty crippling for a small business and a former employee has then access and oportunity to do a lot more dammage then that. No real reason to invite trouble out of revenge or spite, better to keep it professional and part on the best terms possible for both parties.

      • lysp on 28/05/2020 - 15:42

        I wouldn't even do that as there can be repercussions. It's simpler to terminate and move on.

        You can give a shit reference without giving a shit reference.

        Q:
        Was xyz a good worker?

        A:
        Xyz did work for us but is no longer an employee.

        Q:
        Would you hire them again?

        A:
        Xyz did work for us but is no longer an employee.

        • Tejas57 on 29/05/2020 - 07:07

          i was asked to give a reference for someone who barely showed up for work and when they did they did nothing.

          i said to the person "you would be lucky to have them work for you…" i was than asked if i would re-employ them. i said no i would not. the message got though

    • sarahlump on 26/05/2020 - 17:34
      +3

      A shit reference? They were clearly a core member of staff and important to the functioning of the business. So surely they have been completing their responsibilities "oh, one time I had an uncomfortable interaction with them after they disclosed to me they weren't interested in coming back to work for me'

      • ssquid on 26/05/2020 - 17:40
        +1

        That's the problem, according to OP they have not disclosed that information like a reasonable person would.

  • Farrba on 26/05/2020 - 12:18

    are they still entitled to receive jobkeeper until October?

    • xuqi on 26/05/2020 - 12:20
      +3

      Not if they are no longer employed. They will then need to lodge a Job seeker request.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 12:21
    +59

    In hindsight I should have held the payment back until they responded

    You realise the money isn't yours and you get no say…right? You must pass on the payments if the staff member is stood down until the day you re-open or the day you terminate them.

    You stood down the staff member. They had no say in that.
    They can decide not to return to work. Likewise, you have no say in that.

    Terminate them. Notify ATO. Move on.

    • sangohan on 26/05/2020 - 16:48
      -2

      The OP is implying that they should've terminated the employment if the employee didn't agree to come in on the re-open day, and use the jobkeeper payment as leverage.

      Right now, the jobkeeper payment has gone out, and any termination will not affect that payment. Therefore, the employee an opportunity to get paid but not work (even if there's work to do).

      Whether you think this is "right" or "wrong" is up to your personal political leanings.

      • sarahlump on 26/05/2020 - 17:35
        +6

        erm, politics dont come into it, right and wrong is more of an ethical or moral decision.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 18:50
        +10

        Therefore, the employee an opportunity to get paid but not work (even if there's work to do).

        The employee is entitled to JK whilst stood down. End of story.

        • krenske on 28/05/2020 - 11:46

          Not end of story - they are no longer stood down if there is work.

          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/05/2020 - 12:20
            +2

            @krenske:

            they are no longer stood down if there is work.

            Your point being?

            • krenske on 30/05/2020 - 00:12

              @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: They can’t choose to not go back to work..
              if there is work they have to do it or be fired and no longer get jobkeeper.

              As long as that work is similar to what they would have been doing or a related skill set etc etc………
              If they want to get paid not to work they are choosing to go onto jobseeker and hope they can get another job when it all settles down

    • isthatallyougot on 26/05/2020 - 12:43
      +19

      You cannot withhold the Jobkeeper payment. That is not money from the Government to be paid to the employee via the company. If you withhold that money , the employee has every right to report you to the ATO. Do not suggest options which are illegal !!

      https://www.business.gov.au/Risk-management/Emergency-manage…

      • whooah1979 on 26/05/2020 - 12:58

        Get the JK cut by calling the ATO which isn’t unlawful.

        I don’t know how you got the idea that the employer should keep the jk.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 13:05
        +2

        By 'cut', he means get ATO to suspend the JK payments.

      • Punda on 28/05/2020 - 00:56

        The employer has to pay it first them lodge paper work to get the refund which he won’t get back till the middle of next month so it’s not the government’s money he’s getting this week.

  • EFC94 on 26/05/2020 - 12:38
    -5

    Just gonna throw it out there, but how are you as a boss in general? If you create a good work environment and treat staff well, I'm sure they'd return the favour. Sounds like you could improve your attitude as a boss moving into the future.

    • zonra on 26/05/2020 - 12:46
      +2

      Sounds like you could improve your attitude as a boss moving into the future.

      How did you get that from the OP?
      Fact of the matter is their staff refuse to come back to work but are still happy to receive Job Keeper for months to come.
      OP is therefore weighing up options to dismiss said staff. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me with the information provided.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 12:58
        +3

        but are still happy to receive Job Keeper for months to come.

        How did you get that from the OP?

        OP terminates. Notifies ATO. Payments stop.

      • EFC94 on 26/05/2020 - 13:14
        -3

        Neg away all you want. But if my boss treated me well I'd be happy to stay back and do unpaid work, or in OPs case I would come back to work so he/she wouldn't struggle with minimal staff. Why would I want to come back if my boss treated me like crap and I didn't enjoy coming to work?

        • DingoBilly on 26/05/2020 - 13:57
          +1

          Because it's often staff-dependent.

          Almost all of my staff have said they loved working for me and are happy to work late etc. until I came across one who just didn't work well at all. They felt extremely threatened by any changes to their workplace and felt that everything I was recommending was me trying to get rid of them and fire them. So they acted out, stopped coming to meetings, insulted me at work etc., basically as unprofessional as you get. All for asking them to document some of their work and to start considering how we could make our processes more efficient.

          Sometimes an employee is just bad - regardless of how good a boss/manager you are.

  • Seraphin7 on 26/05/2020 - 12:45
    +1

    Normal rules of termination apply. All else being equal, if they're unable to work both the employer and the employee have rights in this regard according to their contract of employment.

  • burningrage on 26/05/2020 - 12:47
    +11

    I think the real issue is had OP knew the guy is going to scram, then OP wouldn't have bailed him by applying Jobkeeper for him.

    I knew one of my friends whose business got hit by absentees once JobKeeper payment went through even though there were still work available (at reduced pace) but he ended up having to do the job himself.

    It's really amazing how some people can get really creative even during these times.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 13:01
      +19

      It's really amazing how some employers can get creative even during these times.

      I've seen countless examples of businesses standing down staff, despite some work being available - albeit reduced, and refusing to apply for JobKeeper because it's "too hard" and refusing to pay out redundancy/termination entitlements because they can keep the employees stood down for the indefinite future.

      We will see many, many examples of businesses who illegitimately stood down workers once all this blows over.

      • plmko on 26/05/2020 - 13:36
        +8

        Applying for Jobkeeper is genuinely difficult, convoluted and all burden is on the employer to get it right in a very short time frame including doing payroll voodoo acrobatics to fit the criteria.

        It is not just a simple button you click when the tickbox implies you have understood the all the BS that comes with it. For larger businesses it can be a liability they do not want to play with.

        I am not surprised the Gov recently found half the budget figures for the program were fudged numbers or errors.

        • sangohan on 26/05/2020 - 16:51
          +2

          The cost is also upon the employer to pay, and get reimbursed by the gov't after the fact.

          But doing that risks the employer not getting reimbursed, if somehow they are actually not eligible, and there's no recourse (you can't take money back from the employee once paid out).

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 19:06
          +12

          Applying for Jobkeeper is genuinely difficult, convoluted and all burden is on the employer to get it right in a very short time frame including doing payroll voodoo acrobatics to fit the criteria

          Boohoo. Employers are practically getting FREE employees for 20-28 hours a week for a ~6 month period (750 before tax / payrate/minimum wage). If they can't manage spending an hour online doing the application, and an hour down the track in the Portal, for FREE employees then they shouldn't be running a business.

          The fudged numbers or errors are likely a poor excuse. Calling it now. Treasury's forecasting was shite. They're covering their asses. I've firsthand knowledge of the process. I've seen it all. I don't see how any employer could have entered 1500 into that field. A common error was sole traders entering 1 in the employee field, effectively giving a total of 2 (sole trader and an "employee")

      • burningrage on 27/05/2020 - 08:02
        +4

        I don't get it zeggie.

        There is no requirement or compulsion for any business to apply JobKeeper. I know this is slightly off topic as OP did apply for one so the following scenario is not relevant.

        But if a business opts not to apply for JobKeeper (as I know from one of my cafe friends due to no customer anyway) and given there is a time lag between application and receipt of JobKeeper money, and as the consequence, had to stand down staff (not sacked, stand down), then why demonising the employer?

        It is as if from the way I read your comment, if an employer doesn't apply for Jobkeeper, it's their fault for not applying for one and if an employer applies for one, it is still their fault because they can't "manage" (using your word from above).

        I mean, I am sensing rooted animosity of employer here rather than objective understanding from two sides.

        • stringbean402 on 27/05/2020 - 21:09
          +3

          It’s short sighted to have not applied.

          Your cafe friend will now not be eligible for any free govt labour all because they couldn’t be stuffed doing some paperwork and fronting 1 month of wages. Yet they will likely be back trading very shortly, maybe without staff because why work when you can get $1300 fortnight on jobseeker at the moment?

          If any staff do come back no doubt they will scram the second a new job comes their way after getting screwed by their employer during a difficult time.

  • mskeggs on 26/05/2020 - 12:59
    +10

    I know people who have been without work for a while now, both with and without welfare/jobkeeper.
    A month ago there was no certainty on when many businesses would reopen, and many are reopening with reduced staffing.
    Finding a more certain income source would have been everyone’s recommendation a little while ago, and it sounds like this employee is trying to do so.
    If they are a permanent employee, tell them you need them to work out their notice period.
    If you employed them as a casual, then what is the complaint, exactly?

  • Diji1 on 26/05/2020 - 13:00
    +33

    In good faith we put eligible staff (2 people) onto the Jobkeeper program to keep them going through the shutdown

    No you didn't. Get over yourself.

    You seem to be venting about a fictional scenario where your employee gamed the system when they didn't and somehow you believe you are paying them when you are not.

    It strikes me as a control freak behavior.

    • outlander on 26/05/2020 - 14:11
      +14

      If you replace the word 'staff' with 'slave' then its much easier to understand their position.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 14:37
        +6

        Employees may not know this so they may think we are "obligated" and there is no good faith involved.

        There is.

        As an employer, we had to pay staff in advance even though we were effectively shut. The responsibility to make sure we were eligible didn't fall to the employees nor the government. We have to do our homework and if we were incorrect, we would have lost that advance payment without getting reimbursed by JK.

        We were not obliged to do any of this. We could have laid off staff.

        • sarahlump on 26/05/2020 - 17:43
          +2

          But….shouldn't a busines have savings for 3-6 months to cover wages. That seems to be the recurring theme to dump things onto people on this website 'savings!!'. When in reality, and it's always best to find yourself in reality, the majority of people don't have savings.

          Now, in reality, it's a difficult situation from the employer and the employee and in some cases, it's better to let the employee go and apply for welfare. But it's important to make that decision and not just sit on your ass.

          (btw the employee can't actually start an application until the employer tells centrelink they aren't working for them anymore, so the employee has to just hope that this happens some time in the next month?). (it's a form that needs to be filled out and then sent to centrelink by the employer).

          Everything else is just the shitty horrible thing capitalism does to us.

          • [Deactivated] on 26/05/2020 - 18:23
            +2

            @sarahlump:

            shouldn't a busines have savings for 3-6 months to cover wages

            I do but I may not necessarily want to use my savings to hire staff for a closed business.

            Everything else is just the shitty horrible thing capitalism does to us.

            People who cry about capitalism typically are living in the luxury afforded by it.

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/05/2020 - 19:09
              +6

              @[Deactivated]: The requirement to pay staff upfront was subsequently removed for business eligibility for JobKeeper. Many businesses still owe their staff for April.

            • sarahlump on 27/05/2020 - 15:47

              @[Deactivated]: I'm pretty sure people living in bondage have a different opinion but hey you do you.

              • [Deactivated] on 27/05/2020 - 16:28
                +1

                @sarahlump: They definitely do and sadly, I will never hear their opinions as they are stuck in places where they do not have free speech and access to decent education.

                The ones that can air their opinion are living in…

                drum roll

                … Capitalist countries.

                • MessyG on 28/05/2020 - 13:16
                  +1

                  @[Deactivated]: LOL China is capitalist AF and a major oppressor. They're about as communist as the DPRK is democratic these days.

                  And Australia is one of the more left leaning capitalist countries in the world AND we don't oppress free speech.

                  This capitalist vs socialist nonsense everyone gets on with is just a media driven conflation to divide everyone. With Medicare and jobkeeper/seeker/newstart whatever, we are socialist AND capitalist. You can be both. America has people mortgaging their homes ti pay for healthcare in the name of capitalism which completely oppresses their ability to thrive.

                  Things aren't as simple as the MSM would have you believe…

                  • [Deactivated] on 28/05/2020 - 14:32

                    @MessyG: Not sure how much more communist a country can get and proclaim to be before some far left supporters will stop cherry picking what they want to consider communist.

                    Yes we can be both and it doesn't change the fact that China is communist and so are all the shithole communist countries that came before it.

                    The left just wants every successful country to be labelled socialist/communist and disown them once it goes the eventual way it always does.

                    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/05/2020 - 15:09

                      @[Deactivated]: Lol MissG is 100% correct there - CPC is capitalist. They're communist in name only. Similar to how the Nazis were apparently "socialists".

                      • [Deactivated] on 28/05/2020 - 15:30

                        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: They were socialists.

                        They just evolved. It's like liking butterflies but hating caterpillars. They're the same thing.

                        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/05/2020 - 16:34

                          @[Deactivated]: I think you require some history lessons. It's at your fingertips.

                          • [Deactivated] on 28/05/2020 - 16:58

                            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I've played this game before and I have learnt from history.

                            I can name whichever period/nation/regime and even if the party literally caries the name, the rebuttal is "yeah, but it ain't".

                            So okay. Socialist party wasn't socialist. Communist party isn't communist.

                            The true communist/socialist party is the one that doesn't exist.

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