WANTED: OzBargain's Opinion on PRI #281232616 (Class A Offence: Idiot Sydneysider Road Encounter - Minimum Penalty 5 Years Jail)

Hello to all Ozbargainers far, wide (and near), hot, ugly (I do not discriminate), smelly, old and young, tall and fat.

I write to you today to defer to your good judgement regarding an NSW PRI (New South Wales Personal Road Incident, for me it was #281232616) I had experienced this morning on the day of Tuesday October 27, 2020. For some contextual information, I live in Epping and spend most of my weekdays in Macquarie Park doing god knows what. I commute each morn to Macquarie Park by vehicular transport, whereby I mean I drive a car on my own (and enjoy being a big boy too). As I am sure you are all aware, I will be providing you some information for you to form your good, unbiased judgement in the form of marked-up screenshots. I apologise prematurely (the only premature thing I succumb to, hello ladies) for the lack of MS Paint drawings, as I own a MacBook "Pro" and this $4000 "pro" machine doesn't have MS Paint. I might as well throw it in the bin. Anyway, we shall proceed.

During this cold and chilly morning, on my not-so-merry way to work, I came to the point in my commute where I was to turn left onto Carlingford Rd from Ray Rd. I approached the intersection from the left hand lane on a green light, pictured deliciously as thus. As some of you may know, Carlingford Rd is surprisingly one of the very few roads in Sydney that is quite uniform and has two lanes on either side of the road as per this indulgent picture. As I was making the turn, a local village idiot in a white SUV, approaching from the other side of the road and turning right (as per this decadent photo, my art teacher told me to never use m birds but she's not my teacher anymore so I do what I want) nearly T-boned me.

This all culminated to what I like to call the "birds-eye" view, enjoy your meal. In this photo, and THIS photo alone, is precisely (and I do mean PRECISELY!) what occurred to-day! I decided on this joyous morn to exercise my FREEDOM! and hence, to direct my vehicle left, into the RIGHT lane as it IS my preferred way of driving to Macquarie Park and because a single lane can turn into ANY LANE! It appeared this morning my OzBargaining friends, that as I was turning left, INTO THE RIGHT! lane, that the other driver, assumed! I was not turning into the RIGHT lane, but the LEFT?! and as SUCH, decided to dangerously, and I daresay, PREMATURELY! (unlike me) proceed forward, nearly hitting my car?!?!

And so we come to the crux of the issue and for why I have come to you all this DAY. As the driver on the other side of the road, and I, were both approaching the intersection, both on a GREEN LIGHT I may add, and NOT a GREEN ARROW! Was the driver, in said white SUV, in the wrong for turning early, and nearly hitting my car?!?!?!?

I Hope you are all please to hear, that YES! after I avoided this near-miss, and after noticing the driver in my rear view mirror had the TENACITY to gesture at me as if they had the right of way, I did proceed to assertively, and proudly, give the driver the middle finger through my rear window with a forceful shake of my fist, to exercise my right and to PROVE that they are indeed, the idiot.

So! What say you? Vote below, it is only here for a week, but it is indeed free.

TL;DR enjoy your meal Yellowy greeny go or red go first who right way give?

Poll Options expired

  • 288
    You were the superior driver this morn.
  • 25
    You were in the wrong and should be smited by Jesus.
  • 56
    I am thoroughly entertained and you have helped me become a better person.

Comments

  • If you're turning left into an intersection, the opposing traffic turning right has to give way to you.

    • Hammond

    • A dedicated green right turn arrow should be installed for the oncoming traffic from Rawson Street.

      I'd been living in that area for five years, I'd used to same intersection to turn right to Carlingford road, it was awful twenty years ago when there were significant less traffic, now with thousands apartments been built around, I could imagine it's became worse.

      The traffic from Rawson street turning right usually is a long queue, it consists of shoppers leave from Coles, people leaving RSL club and other local traffic. People turning right do need to give way to oncoming traffic from Ray road, either turn left or drive straight to Rawson Street. Usually people waiting to turn right will give away to the traffic drive straight, but will start turning right if they see oncoming traffic only turning left. If the oncoming traffic enter the left most lane, their vehicle would enter the right lane. If the oncoming traffic wait for people turning left to complete turning, or occupy the right lane after turning, they probably are not going to move an inch before light turning red.

      The near miss usually occurs when people turning left enter the right lane, and people turning right right behind it. But I thought the vehicle turning left should enter left most lane first, then move from left lane to right lane after turning complete? That's my driving instructor taught me 30 years ago.

      May be OP can do people a favor to write to Council or RMS to get this dangerous intersection fix. Thank You.

      • You can choose any lane when turning into a multi lane roadway. I believe the rule is 10 to 20 years old. (VIC)

  • u good bruv?

  • +28 votes

    tl;dr please

  • Not to be judgmental, but you could have made your point using half, possibly even as little as a third as many words.

    I am also a sucker for using MS Paint like a monkey with a crayon, but if it takes more than 3 pictures to explain then you are doing something wrong.

    A+ for effort though.

    • I didn't even read the words, just looking at the pictures alone tells the same story. I mean I'm guessing it tells the same story because I didn't even read the words.

    • "As I am sure you are all aware, I will be providing you some information for you to form your good, unbiased judgement in the form of marked-up screenshots. I apologise prematurely (the only premature thing I succumb to, hello ladies) for the lack of MS Paint drawings, as I own a MacBook "Pro" and this $4000 "pro" machine doesn't have MS Paint. I might as well throw it in the bin."

      70 words just to say he can't make an MS Paint diagram since he has a Mac

    • OP talks a lot but says little.

  • +13 votes

    I dont know… The drawing for Road Rule 28 "Left Turn on Multiple lane road" is different… So, it's a bit confusing.

    Yes, that car needs to give way to you, and they need to pull into the middle lane… but I'm still trying to work out if you can pull into the middle (or "right") lane… The information offered on RMS and the legislation contradicts that image.

    From the same NSW RMS site your photo is from; (The part you omitted in the photo.)

    Left turns

    You must make a left turn from the left side of the road. When turning:

    • Signal left
    • Move close to the left side of the road
    • Keep to the left side of the road you are entering
    • OP deliberately left this quotation out as he knew it didn't support his position. Even at the bottom of the picture OP cites it says "You can turn into either lane, depending on traffic". Traffic didn't allow him to turn into the right lane so he had to stick in the left. OP was in the wrong.

      • Incorrect, look at my birds-eye view picture, the front of my car was ahead of the front of the other car (I did say t-bone in my initial comment do you know what a t-bone is in a car crash context?). There was no traffic blocking that lane, if there was, by the law of PHYSICS and not wanting to blow money on car repairs, I would not have been able to enter that lane, lest I crash and the atoms of my car collide with the atoms of the other car whereby the irreversible damage would have prevented me from arriving at work, and as a result the day would not have gone as it did, and you may never have replied to this thread by the Laws of Physics and the Time Space Continuum. I was in front (hence why I could actually enter the lane as per the Laws of Physics mentioned apriori), but I guess you must have been there and seen everything… despite the screenshots I’ve uploaded.

        It appears the rule is, if you are turning from a single lane into a multi-lane road you can opt to stay in OR move into the far lane. Any oncoming traffic or traffic waiting in the intersection (i.e. the other driver in this case) must wait until safe, not "let's go now it looks like he is turning into the left lane hur dur". The other driver this morning assumed I was turning into the left lane and that is why they proceeded and nearly crashed into me. Never assume when driving a 3 tonne killing machine (fun fact: many people don't realise that cars can kill people).

        I am not one to assume on the road, for instance, if I am exiting a driveway and I see an oncoming car indicating left (i.e. to turn into the driveway) I will always wait until they begin the turn before pulling out, especially in Sydney.

      • Considering the car turning right should've gave way, traffic (if everyone followed the rules) allowed the OP to turn into any lane.

      • I didn't realise I had to state that we drive on the left side of the road in Australia. Replies like yours worry me.

      • The real STIG would know you always get in close to the apex as you can in a turn.

        Common sense would say that there is no way two cars could turn simultaneously into a two lane road unless it is The real STIG and his perfect clone.

      • I'm with Adam. The rule is, the one that screenshotted, if you are turning right you can go into lane. The one missing is if you are turning left you need to stay on the left side of the road.

        So right turner had right to pick any lane, and OP has to slot in.

        The default rule is always give way to your right. If the choice is between them hitting your driver side, or you hitting their passenger side, then they have right of way.

        • Hold on, so if someone is going straight instead (at or past the lines, not some 30m back), and a car is turning right from the opposite side, they are supposed to give way anyway, because the other car is turning from their right? You realise how crazy that sounds, right?

          According to the link OP posted it says "Wait until oncoming traffic clears, or there is a break in the oncoming traffic, and then turn safely." That means a safe gap in between cars, not just a few seconds gap where you jam the pedal down.

          By OP's description, he was ahead enough that he ended up in front of the other car (plus he almost got t-boned, not the other way around) so it's obvious he had the right of way.

          p.s. "The one missing is if you are turning left you need to stay on the left side of the road". No it isn't, it's right there in the same pic Adam is pointing out, where it shows cars turning both left and right, and it shows the left car turning left into any lane and this covers both traffic and non-traffic light roads (otherwise you'd have another diagram showing left-turning at lights on the NSW road rule website).

          • @snackerjoe: Should have said 'when in doubt.' Or 'if there is no existing rule'. Its a fall back rule I was taught by my driving tester 25 years ago when I asked him about this exact tricky situation. Obviously you cant go around slamming into parked cars driver doors claiming they must give you right of way. Use some common sense.

            Rule op posted is clearly titled 'when turning right'. There is another, also posted here, clearly labelled 'when turning left', quoted by pegaxs above, which op deliberately cropped out because it didnt support them.

            • @ratman: Of course when in doubt, just give way to avoid an accident, it doesn't matter if the person is turning right or left into your way (e.g. someone pulls out from a driveway in front of you).

              However like I said, OP was in the right of way as he was ahead and had rights to turn into any lane he wanted. Right turner has the right to turn into any lane like you said, but only if traffic is clear, not because OP had to use left lane to turn into only.

              Road Rule 62 specifically states "Giving way when turning at an intersection with traffic lights… if the driver is turning right—any oncoming vehicle that is going straight ahead or turning left at the intersection (except a vehicle turning left using a slip lane)" meaning OP had complete right of way as he was not in a slip lane.

              The rule pegaxs linked is talking about entering a single-lane road when turning left, which basically mirrors what is on Road Rule 27. If turning into a multi-lane road, they can turn into any lane if there are no markings restricting which lane to turn into (which mirrors the image that OP linked from the RMS site)

    • -11 votes

      I'm still trying to work out if you can pull into the middle (or "right") lane

      I don't think you can. As I recall, you cannot change lanes in an intersection, and that includes turning. I might be wrong here, but I am pretty sure OP should have turned into the leftmost lane, rather than the right lane.

      • Agreed though he isn’t fully at fault because the other driver is supposed to give way

    • I would give you a few more +.

    • That contradicts the picture I uploaded, where it shows the blue car can move into any lane when turning left.

      No wonder people here can't drive with such idiotic contradictory rules.

      • There's no contradiction in this case. The rules just tell you to keep left (i.e. not cross the centre line of the road).

        • Yes you're right, I was actually thinking about that this morning. I think people interpreted that line in the rules as "stay in the left lane" whereas it means "drive on the left side of the road".

          It could be worded better and reminds me of how there used to be warnings next to lifts that read "in case of fire use stairs" which could be interpreted by users as "use stairs to be safe" when in actuality it meant "if there is a fire use the stairs".

      • The rule you posted is clearly marked regarding right hand turns, with the highlighted path that of a car turning right.

    • The drawing for road rule 28 is different because it's depicting an example of a multi-lane road with multiple lanes that allow left turns. The OP is turning left from a multi-lane road with only one lane that permits a left turn.

      If you are turning left from a multi-lane road with only one lane that allows you to turn left onto another multi-lane road you are allowed to complete your turn into any available lane that traffic allows (essentially can you enter that lane without blocking another lane)

      The keep to the left side of the road refers to keeping left of the middle of the road, as to not enter the line of traffic from the opposing direction (this is written more so to outline what happens when you turn left onto a road that doesn't have a centre line)

      • If you are turning left from a multi-lane road with only one lane that allows you to turn left onto another multi-lane road you are allowed to complete your turn into any available lane that traffic allows

        Ok, can you cite that piece of legislation that has this (OP’s) example in it? because I cannot find it anywhere. Happy to update my knowledge with the correct Road Rule.

        • From what I can remember from learning how to drive; the interpretation is that if there is no legislation that prohibits it or dictates how it must be done, it is allowed.

          In saying that, I don't think there is a piece of legislation that directly addresses the OP's situation but rather it's applying all the rules to driving. Make the turn according to Part 4 of the road rules. Once the turn is complete (entering the new road) you follow Part 11 Division 2 (keeping to the left).

        • https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/int...

          The diagram shows that if single lane, (or in the outer lane with multi lane) you can turn to whatever lane you like. https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/images/roads/safety-rules/roadrul...

          • @Kramo: Yes, but the actual legislation has a different picture and wording that suggests otherwise.

            I went to the RMS on Friday just to ask this question (as we have an intersection in town that is like this and a massive accident waiting to happen) and even they could not tell me what the correct road rule is for this turn…

            I’m awaiting a call back from RMS head office that is the go to for legal questions regarding road rules…

            • @pegaxs: What part of the actual legislation do you think contradicts the OP? The closest the road rules act comes to mentioning "single lane turn to multi lane road" specifically is Reg 29 saying:

              If a driver is turning left at an intersection and there is a turn line indicating how the turn is required to be made, the driver must make the turn as indicated by the turn line unless—

              but there's no turn lines in OP's intersection.

              I'll be curious what RMS reference you to, since it seems like an omitted scenario because there's no situation they're avoiding by having a rule say "go to any lane you like". If there were multiple lanes, there'd be turn lines, and in the OP's situation, he can't enter if cars are going straight, and must be given way by cars turning right from the other side, so no one to occupy other lanes.

            • @pegaxs: Driving instructors in WA (Perth, at least, from what I can tell - anecdotal), support OP's interpretations. If you're on a single lane turning left onto multiple lanes, you are allowed to pick whichever lane you want. Also, car turning right always gives way to car coming from the opposite direction turning left (regardless of how long he has to wait until the intersection is next clear), except when signs or road markings indicate otherwise.

              I have been in identical situations several times(as the car turning left) and usually, it is because the driver of the car opposite loses patience because of a lack of suitable safe gaps in traffic. In my case, though, they have always gestured apologetically, as they knew I had right of way.

    • Keep to the left side of the road. This is Australia, we're expected to travel on the left side (instead of the right side, as they do in the US).

  • How do I like and subscribe and press the notification bell?

  • Your profile says your location is Melbourne. Your post confirms that you do indeed have the required traits of a Sydney driver, so you must have moved. I've heard it said that people who move from Melbourne to Sydney increase the average IQ of both cities.

  • can we please just take a moment to appreciate that the Big Lez Show series was done completely on ms paint

  • so much wording is there a summarise version?

  • I know this intersection well, the other driver needed to have waited until you were done, you had right of way.

  • That's a busy intersection, a little courtesy wouldn't hurt here. Stay on the left lane so you can share the road with oncoming traffic.

    • Courtesy and rules are very different things. For instance, if I was to indicate to change lanes, does that give me the right, to move into the lane Willy nilly?

      I would say no, but it appears that in Sydney; drivers do it anyway.

      • I agree with the above, I’d consider it shit driving to turn into the right lane, I always thought was illegal but differs in jurisdictions. Poor form though imho

        • If there were two left turning lanes, and I turned from the left-most lane into the far-right lane, that would be shit driving. As there was only one left-turning lane I am — by law might I add — allowed to turn into the right lane. Simply because it inconvenienced someone else because they had to keep "giving way" to me doesn't make it shit driving.

          I consider someone who assumes what others will do on the road as shit drivers. Namely the impatient person this morning who assumed I would turn into the left lane and proceeded based on that assumption. That person was already waiting in the intersection (i.e. giving way), even if their light went red they would still be able to join the end of the queue (which is what they actually ended up doing — joining behind me). Proceeding forward based on assumptions when traffic is still turning is completely unsafe and quite frankly, idiotic.

          • @Ghost47: Not questioning the law although seems poor imho, in Qld this is illegal or once was. I’d put down to being courteous as others have said, do you have a need to swing to the right immediately if not don’t do it.

            • @Donaldhump: That's the law in both Vic and NSW. I prefer being in the right lane on that road as the left lane can be slower, and because it makes the turns and lane changes I need to make further into my trip easier than being in the left lane (pre-emptive driving).

              The other driver had to give way to all turning traffic, I don't quite agree I was being discourteous by driving the way I did, I was simply following the road rules.

            • @Donaldhump: Feel pretty sure that's the law in WA as well. Or at least, that's what driving instructors teach.

              There are also instances where one might want to take the first right turn after turning left. In that case, moving straight into the right lane is the correct manoeuvre.

              By law, the driver of the vehicle turning right has to give way to the vehicle turning left. Performing an action which (although unintentionally) forces others to adhere to the rule of law is not wrong, nor is it discourteous.

  • OP curious to know how much you make as a Ghost writer?

  • From the topic I thought this was going to be an ivi post. Sadly not, and TLDR

  • Road rule seems pretty clear to me. Regardless of which lane you chose, the other driver is required to remain stationary until it is safe to proceed.

    http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104...

    62 Giving way when turning at an intersection with traffic lights
    (1) A driver turning at an intersection with traffic lights must give way to—
    (c) if the driver is turning right—any oncoming vehicle that is going straight ahead or turning left at the intersection (except a vehicle turning left using a slip lane).

    Note 2 : For this rule,
    "give way" means the driver must remain stationary until it is safe to proceed—see the definition in the Dictionary.

    • Thank you. I thought it was clear to me as well, but it appears that the concept is not quite as easy to grasp for others on this forum. Quite worrying at the least.

      I should clarify this at the least "Looks like they're turning into the left lane, time for me to go" is NOT "safe". Never assume on the road, especially if you drive in Sydney.

      • Hard to believe, but people occasionally disagree about things on forums….

      • What I find amazing is that only about 10% of the people responding got the rule wrong last time I read one of these type of questions it was closer to 30% not knowing the rules

  • I commute each morn to Macquarie Park by vehicular transport, whereby I mean I drive a car

    If you actually take this route every day on your commute to Macquarie Park, than you would know that what happened to you at this intersection is a common occurrence. If all the cars that line up to turn right on to Carlingford Rd waited for the cars that are turning left from Ray Rd, they would never make the turn before the lights turned back to red. Therefore, some drivers take it upon themselves to make the turn into the right-hand lane, hoping (or forcing you) that you will see what they are doing and will make your turn into the left-hand lane. What they are doing is not right/legal, but maybe some consideration from drivers on Ray Rd (turning left) could alleviate the situation, and allow everyone to make the turn safely.

    Maybe the intersection needs a different sequencing to the lights or a left arrow light installed, but until this happens you will always see what you experienced at this intersection.

    • Actually, it was the first time it's happened to me, but I took a different route than normal today (thanks Carlingford Rd for getting backed up 500 meters, I'd hate to see it on a bad day giggle).

      May I suggest maybe if the roads weren't so badly designed in such a high density/throughput/populated area this problem wouldn't have occurred in the first place? I would love to speak with the city planners who designed this part of Sydney as I have a lot of feedback for them. Especially with the highrises going up in Macquarie Park and the fact that Mac Centre will implode in on itself, I guess the drop in immigration (i.e. students going to Mac Uni) will help.

      Maybe the intersection needs a different sequencing to the lights or a left arrow light installed, but until this happens you will always see what you experienced at this intersection.

      One simple fix would be to simply paint some simple lines in the intersection on the ground so people could simply see and simply turn into the appropriate lane.

      But I will be more mindful and consider the fact the intersection is so terrible I need to change my driving habits and ignore the road rules to make it more efficient because the planners didn't consider traffic flow when designing the road, by turning into the nearest left lane when turning onto Carlingford Rd (which isn't the law). Maybe I will start arriving to work at 3am and leaving at 11am to increase the efficiency of the traffic flow even further by not being on the road? Or I could wake up at 4am and walk all the way to work, and then walk all the way home?

      May I also add, the person was in the intersection waiting. No matter the lane I turned into, considering they were in the intersection waiting, if their light went red they would still be able to join the queue (i.e. light ahead red, light to right green, keep turning to get out of intersection and tack onto end of queue). Proceeding forward would have only landed them one spot ahead in said queue in this situation (as they ended up behind me). Pretty silly and impatient driving IMO for such little gain. If, on the other hand, they had to exit the intersection and get to work as they had a turd coming out of their rectum that could not wait, or if there was some other life threatening situation such as priapism then maybe, just maybe they should have done what they did this morn.

    • Completely agree with this. It's an ugly intersection which will become even uglier after two apartment blocks behind 7elenen are built.

      I live on Rawson side of that intersection and almost always try to avoid it by turning into Beecroft from Bridge and doing a uturn in 7eleven.

      • The roads will not suffice with how many people will inhabit the area in the coming decade.

  • I’m exhausted. That was some road trip just reading that.

  • I stopped reading after the first line and went back to searching the net for my next high yield investment

  • YES! after I avoided this near-miss

    So I waded through the extended post and found you did actually hit them. Hope you’re insured.

  • Look.. it was a simple turn left. The approaching vehicle must remain stationary util you make your turn. They can not cut across into your path.

    Yet, you have somehow turned this simple act into some sort of visitation complete with art teachers and ornithology rhetoric.

    Don't pursue this in Court… the Magistrate will send you off for assessment.