Daughter Doesn't Want to Return Her Mum`s Life Saving

Hello Guys

Thank you for your time
We wanted to get your thoughts and any guidance you guys can offer about a messy situation that my Best friend mother is in.
My Friends mother gave her 2nd daughter and her husband a substantial amount of money(150k) half her life saving for purchasing their first home last year for their deposit on the understanding that they will return the money back once they move into the new house, however after the settlement they completely stopped talking to the Mother , no communication and also does not allow her to see the grandkids :-(.
The 2 kids have grown up with their grandma by their side since birth and she has looked after then almost every day as the daughter would always say she is too tired to look after 2 kids (the daughter doesn’t work)

Since last year the mother has gone into severe depression as not being able to see the grand kids and being felt used and abused by her own daughter both emotionally and financially
Now 2 weeks ago my friend found out that the house that the 2nd daughter who purchased the house using her mother’s funds has the property for sale and which is currently under offer. When my friend told her mother about this, she then said she had given even more money to the second daughter and her husband prior to them purchasing the house for the husband to purchase a Food Truck (around 50k)
Her mother has been asking for them to return the money that she gave them since last year but they have blocked her # and do not even open the door when she goes to their house, once day she sat in her car in front of the house from 7 am to about 10 pm and both daughter and husband kept going in and out and ignored her calls to talk to them or let her see the grandkids

Now she wants her money back and doesn’t know what to do , they have seem a lawyer who has not been that great as when they spoke to him first he said he would send them a Letter of demand and give them 7 days to pay and if they don’t then put a caveat on the house and that he will get her money back but he also stopped responding to calls and did not do anything for the first 7 days and only after a week went my they were able to get in touch with another solicitor from the same firm who has just send out a Letter of demand 2 days ago giving them 7 days to pay but has said that she can’t put a caveat on the property as it’s not a caveatable interest which is not what the first lawyer from the same firm advised based on which she paid the lawyer fees.

We would appreciate if anyone could advice or help on what can my friends mother do to get her money back.

The daughter who took the money had also sent a handwritten card last year saying " Thanks mum for the money to purchase our house, we will return it once we move in "
The husband is a bad person, he first married to an Aussie to get a PR then divorced her and now this. When her mother asked him about his previous marriage he said in his religion he can marry 3-4 times its allowed

Please keep the comments clean as their family is going through a tough time.
Thank you all in advance

Edit 1 Since lot of people as asking

Examples of why Grandma believes the husband is not a nice person :

Being married before to get a PR and then divorced the girl once his PR was granted

Kept pressuring and pushing her daughter to come to grandma asking for money for the the food truck

Telling her daughter to strictly start following his religion if she wants to be with him

Forcing her to wear the traditional head attire in public , and the cruelest of all

Getting angry, abusive and blaming her daughter when they found out their second child is also a GIRL not a BOY. Left her pregnant daughter in the mall when she went and bought little baby girl clothes for child to come telling her that its her fault that she's giving birth to a girl not a boy .

The money for the house was given after the second child where the daughter would come to grandma and literally crying and begging for the money to help her family get a house of their own

Grandma was in touch with her daughter through all this via phone and catch ups without telling the husband. But after the settlement even this stopped and last phone call from her she said that She is changing her religion and Name doesn't want the grandma to have anything with her and she dare not let the kids go visit or see the grandma

Comments

  • +7

    I'm just commenting to remind my self to come back and check the comments again later

    • +2

      Here’s a comment reply to make it easier to find it in alerts.

  • +3

    Maybe he's planning on ditching the wife and upgrading to nan as wife #3? One more left after that.

    • +2

      quite possible, hes got his brother on student visa here who just works on the food truck and when his father comes over on tourist visa,the father works on construction site for cash

      • What's the name of the food truck?

      • +5

        Dob them all in 😂

      • +1

        Yeah dob them into immigration. It's the right thing to do, we don't want more of these situations

  • +13

    Plot twist:

    Jam92 is the grandmother and Mrkorrupt is the daughters husband. They are both competing to win the hearts and minds of the Ozbargain community with their story.

    • yeh he does seem like the grandma ay lol

      • +4

        I would say Jam92 is the other daughter…

  • +2

    Tip ATO and have ATO chase their couple for dodging income tax.

    The money your friend GAVE to her 2nd daughter would be deem INCOME if the daughter doesn't treat it as a loan.

    ATO would likely respond and the couple will be forced to explain how they get these 150k + 50k to their account with receipts which they don't have ( I presume your friend doesn't write any note telling the couple those 50+150k are a gift?) This would result in the couple need to pay a tax bill of ~100K + possible penalty which I presume would hurt.

    Not so much a solution to get your friend's money back as I really don't see any legal way to have that scxxbag couple to pay your friend back willingly.

    • +6

      Australia doesn't have a gift tax does it? Grandma already paid the tax when she originally got the money.

      • +1

        I think the idea is that the daughter will have to either return the money if she admits it was a loan, or last tax on it if she insists it is hers. It won't ever be a gift, the mother will say it was not a gift.

        • +2

          Thank you for u understanding the tactics.
          At least one person is smart enough to understand this.
          If this is reported to ATO and if they issue an audit, the couple will be forced to provide evidence that is a gift which I assume they wont have.

          Before anyone criticize this I already said this tactics wont help the grandma to recover her money.

      • no gift tax correct

    • all bank transfers

  • +1

    Definitely contact Judge Judy.

    She will sort this out for sure…

  • +1

    This isn't legal advice, but your friend's mum is pretty screwed.

    My understanding is that for the interest to be caveatable, there needs to be a written contract that basically says that the loan is secured against the house that she is about to buy. A handwritten card saying "Thanks mum for the money to purchase our house, we will return it once we move in" is certainly not enough. If a contract were in place, it would have been about as easy as it gets to get her money back. So, I agree with the other dude who said it isn't caveatable

    So she's basically in a situation where she has lent money without any form of security and it isn't even clear what the terms of the loan are. You can certainly take it to court, but it will get messy real fast.

    Personally, I would just cut that daughter out of her inheritance.

    • Disagree with you there. There is enough evidence there to get a caveat on the property…. OP needs to see a good solicitor immediately and show them all the details mentioned herein. I have done same with less evidence.

      • Please explain, I would absolutely love to hear why you say that is the case.

        They did see a better solicitor (the second one) who recognised that this isn't a caveatable interest, and I absolutely agree with her view. The first solicitor stuffed up by giving bad advice, he must have realised it and ghosted them

        • I think it comes down to the judge and what happens in court. Grandma has her testimony, the testimony of the other daughter, and a card supporting a clear intention to return the money. The story also fits in that daughter 1 did buy a house in the appropriate part of the timeline (which we presume is correct as is the rest of the detail provided).

          If the married couple in question correlate these details (e.g. They are poor liars, or the pressure gets to them, or they think they are entitled to this money for the wrong reasons, which sounds plausible) they might also correlate this story. A sympathetic judge may therefore rule in favour of the grandma, esp if the married couple's story doesn't line up.

          I also would be trying to avoid court though

          • @Jackson: That's not the issue we're talking about. There is no doubt in my mind that a case of unpaid personal loan could be made out.

            The issue is whether or not it is caveatable. Why? Because putting a caveat over someone else's property is one of the easiest and cheapest ways to motivate someone to pay you back

            • @Butt Scratcher: Sorry, missed that that was the point of your comment somehow. If they are selling the house and they have liquidity, I figured that might not matter so much

              • @Jackson: That's ok, I can see the confusion

                If they are selling the house and they have liquidity, I figured that might not matter so much

                Of course it matters! It's the difference between a secured loan and an unsecured loan.

                In this situation, an unsecured loan could mean:

                1. Daughter could sell the house and buy another without paying mother back
                2. Daughter sells the house and the money "disappears"
                3. Daughter sells the house and goes overseas
                4. Daughter takes a lifetime to repay the debt
                5. Daughter waits for the mother to die

                All of that can be prevented with a caveat

  • Your friend needs to prove that there was a valid offer and acceptance if she's going to claim there was a contract.

  • Why the (profanity) would anyone want more than 0 wives?

    and get the will changed to exclude this chick from any more $$$

    • Because they have more dollars than sense? I guess there's a 50% chance that ratio may come into alignment in the future. So, there's hope.

  • +1

    I can see a big upvote in the next ozbargain condom deal after this post

  • +8

    Cut the daughter out of the inheritance and leave letters for the grandchildren to read that will explain to them why they never got to know their grandmother

  • Firstly, your friend needs to find a better lawyer.
    Secondly, in order for a caveatable interest to arise your friend's mother needs to have a proprietary right against the property to be caveated. Unfortunately your story doesn't really help. First you say she 'gave' money, then you claim it was a loan.
    It sounds like she is going to claim an equitable interest or equitable mortgage. This is a basis for a caveat - however, registering the caveat is the easy bit. Substantiating the caveat once a Commissioner's notice is sent is another matter entirely.
    So, there is a good chance that you'll be looking at an action to extend the operation of caveat, plus an action to substantiate the equitable claim. Either way, there's a decent chance that it will cost as much as, and possibly more than, the loan.

    • I meant she loaned the money on condition that they will return it once the settle in. They said they just want the bank to see the funds in their bank account and once husband property is sold overseas they will pay the money back in full.

  • +11

    Depending how old the mother is this may well be considered elder abuse by way of financial abuse. At the very least it’s financial abuse and a form of family violence.
    https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/20...

    Perhaps get your friend to put your mum in touch with an organisation that looks at elder abuse and/or financial abuse.
    https://www.relationships.org.au/relationship-advice/relatio...
    In VIC it’s senior rights Australia https://seniorsrights.org.au/your-rights/
    The police also have some info and advise to report it https://www.police.vic.gov.au/elder-abuse

    If your friend’s mum is now financially struggling having lost the money, she may be eligible for legal aid. https://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/

    All the best to your friend and their mum.

  • The law firm she has appears to be useless. You can get free first consultations. try elswehere. This daughter can never be trusted again. Dont let her back in your life. She will end up ripped off by her husband. As for the grandchldren, male sure they know how to contact their grandmother such as the name on her facebook account

    • The kids are infants 2 and 4

  • Bad daughter….bad.

    Husband likely to divorce her daughter and take half of the assets since he has done it once before. And then onto the next poor lady.

    Wash and repeat.

    Money may be an smaller issue like everyone says, relationship is (profanity) up and irreversible.

    Daughter might be going through a hard time with divorcing in the imminent future?

  • +1

    Thanks mum for the money to purchase our house, we will return it once we move in

    I'm confused: 1. they already have the cash to return it, or 2. they will have to save it up to return it. If 1. why didn't they use their own funds? If 2. the Mother could be waiting a long time, even if they decide to return the funds.

    Or 3. they need to extract it from some foreign country?

    • They didnt have any money, the daughter asked grandma for money to buy husband a food truck so they can support their family, they said they will pay the food truck money back in some time. Then the daughter came crying to grandma saying that they want help in buying a house and if she could lend them money for a short period so they can show to the bank they have the money and pay the deposit. They promised to pay back through a sale of a overseas property the husband claims to have

      • +2

        I feel sorry for people who pander to their children's needs for instant gratification. You have to be cruel to be kind - and by doing this you teach the children life skills/values. In this case the mother should have waited until they sold their overseas property and funded the purchase themselves.

        If you "lend" money informally, treat it as a gift in case the borrower doesn't "pay" it back.

        The mother should do as much in her power as possible to get it back without expending too much more money and emotional capital. Otherwise she will harm herself. After this point, let it go and restart her life.

        • Can`t say what she was thinking , but all that she tells us that she just wanted to lend them the money get through and settle in life and due to her unconditional love she has for the grand kids and the daughter crying like crazy and begging her for the money she gave in..

  • +1

    Set fire to her box. Some people are just shit.

  • Love from a mum is always unconditional. Feel so sorry to hear what this grandmother have to go thru. Look like the husband is a controlled freak and it will be hard for the mum to reach her daughter or her grandkids. Unfortunately, unless she name and shame her kid publicly which I doubt she would , she might have lost the daughter and money forever. She should start to move on her life. Consider that she done what she could for her daughter and write in her will that her 2nd daughter is not entitled to anything from now as she got more than her slice from because by the sound of it the husband is just a vaultour that will come after her.

    • We are trying to get her to move on but its very hard. We have got her into a mental health plan through her gp

      • -2

        trying to get who to move out?

        • "move on", not "move out"

  • The husband is a bad person, he first married to an Aussie to get a PR then divorced her and now this.

    Sooo…the husband is a gold digger….nice……

    • +2

      No his feelings changed and you should respect him because of who he is on the inside and ignore the chaos he leaves in his wake lelelel.

      • +1

        AHhh, this reminds me of a a review of a game that I found funny that I shall quote here:

        You see, monster girls are better than regular girls because the monster is on the outside.

        but instead of girls, its the boys….though that is mostly true as most of them are shown on the outside than the inside anyways…..

  • +3

    Just going to throw some different possible perspectives out there, could well not be the case..

    Is the daughter being abused by her controlling husband?
    If the husband was being abusive and controlling and not allowing the money to be repaid (and refusing to allow visitation of the grandkids), and the mother was demanding and staking out, out the front of their house, what position might the daughter might be in?
    Maybe there is both domestic violence (financial) and elder abuse?
    See https://www.abc.net.au/life/financial-abuse-and-what-to-do-a... and https://moneysmart.gov.au/financial-abuse

    Have the daughter and son-in-law legitimately tried to start a business but it hasn't panned out (for whatever reason, food businesses often fail, covid etc)? They may be trying to dig themselves out of a financial hole and need some assistance (financial counselling) on how to do so. If their money really is tied up somewhere overseas, with the current state of the world and covid maybe it is really hard to access those funds?

    Could they be intending to pay the mother back after the sale of the house but feel angry/stressed about the legal letters and the mother spending days out the front of the house in their car?

    Personally, I think I would update my will and try and consider trying to provide an exit strategy for the daughter/grandkids if needed.

    But regardless, maybe the daughter and son-in-law are just total entitled 4r53hats and have ghosted the mother..

  • +3

    The husband will take everything including the children overseas and the grandmother will have to spend every last cent trying to get them back. The daughter will end up with nothing

    • sadly, this is a far too common scenario

      • -1

        Why do Aussie chicks keep hooking up with dodgy foreign blokes - they should have learnt from stories like this that it always ends in tears.

  • +1

    Saw a similar incident on current affair on YouTube… Mother signed as a guarantor by putting her house as collateral to bank.. this was the ensure her son could buy a house.. after buying the house the son started defaulting and has not paid anything including rates and taxes.

    I feel really bad for parents who have to go through such hurdles at the old age. Worst part is the hurdles are caused their own blood whos poop they cleaned growing up..

  • +1

    My parents always made us rent. They don't believe in giving us a headstart when it come to property. :(

    Mediation and counselling. There's probably some bad blood there.

    • Don't worry… at least you can take comfort that your parents are comfortable enough financially to support THEMSELVES.

      I lost my dad years ago. Mum is retired and doesn't have an income (save a tiny pension), so I have had to support her in some way.
      I just feel grateful that, at least now I have saved up enough to buy my first property.

  • +1

    Rather than "just give up and write her out of the will" as some have suggested, which may well be contested if the sister/husbands previous form is anything to go by, how about "Get a better lawyer who will lodge a caveat over the property immediately and act quickly in her best interests".

    Not sure what state you're in but search for Elder Abuse Legal Services - most States have them now, they will be a valuable resource in this. Here's the link for NSW: https://www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au/what-we-do/civil-law/a-servi...

    • Another option might be to talk to relationships australia and get a mediator/counsellor to see if they can help

  • Good luck in getting the money back, but it doesn’t look promising. By the time lawyers and engaged and goes through the courts, I can almost tell you now, it will end up more than the 200k lent. The only hope is one day the daughter realises what she’s put her mother through and comes good eventually. It could take years.

  • +7

    if the guy is of the islamic faith, I wonder if there is any use in speaking with the local mullah for support. This behaviour is reprehensible and if this guy/girls goes to a mosque it may be worth asking the religious leaders for some support.
    The only thing is that when the grandkids turn 18, they may approach the grandma and then get the facts of what happened. Karma is a Bi#$h.
    fool me once, shame on you (food truck), fool me twice, shame on me (house).

    • +2

      lmao that one made me giggle, mate just coz someone was born into a faith, it doesn't mean they are following it, coz in any faith the laws are universal, don't scam people. if that one wasn't enough to stop the husband (or specially the daughter) i doubt anyone can change the husband or the girls mind.

  • +2

    Contributing to the acquisition of the property is a caveatable interest. Mother needs to get a caveat lodged ASAP. If the property is sold with pending settlement a caveat will push the daughter and son-in-law to immediate discussions to resolve so the sale can go through. Otherwise daughter and son-in-law would apply to RG to remove the caveat and mother would then need to issue proceedings to prevent this. Her contribution would be examined for timing and the funding of the purchase.

  • You got to another solicitor… one that deals with this sort of mess.
    Never give money to family… or at least especially that amount… have a solicitor draw up the terms.

    How rotten for people to do this… how rotten

  • It is a shame that it have to come to this. I guess put everything in contract before handout the money will avoid this type of scenarios. Humans are not always trustworthy animals.

  • Needs 2 bags of popcorn, 1 for this and 1 for the upcoming ACA episode of this.

    • The reality is that there is very little to zero chance of getting the money back/ So I would say why not…Tracy loves this stuff. So why not turn the grief and the financial loss into an opportunity and make a deal with the media(ACA) to tell the story and fork back some cash that she lost.

  • To the OP, it’s sad heartless shit like this happens more often than you think it would. It touches me deeply as I am currently living in a real life example of it on my in law side! Only this time it involves their son and daughter in law. They ended up literally homeless. They were lucky that their 2 daughters love them so much that they went out of their way to help them get back to normal living.

    My suggestions to your friend’s mum are:
    - Accept the truths and move on. Accept that she won’t see her money back and she won’t see her grand children
    - Seek professional help for her depression
    - Write up a will immediately and cut out her daughter completely

    • +2

      Thank you for your reply . Hope things work out for you

  • +1

    Let me get this straight. The mother gives $150k in 2019 and 2020 rolls around the daughter sells the property in the middle of a financial crisis? Sorry, but that seems fishy and makes me question your post.

    Edit** Also, dont you think its a little unrealistic for the mother to expect the money back after settlement? what could possibly change pre-settlement vs post-settlement? Daughter :"hey mum; here's the 150k you lent us, the banks don't need it after all" unfortunately that's not how buying a house works.

    • I thought similar re the loan. It sounds as if they pulled the wool over the eyes of grandma, knowing full well they wouldn’t be able to retrieve the deposit. I wonder if this constitutes as fraud if the daughter and SIL lied about how they obtained the money and their financial situation to the bank. It would probably ruin the relationship completely, but the mother could go to the bank with this info, state her case for financial abuse try and get the bank on her side, especially if the property is being sold.

    • Food truck money was given late 2018 and the property money in feb 2020. The daughter said that the husband has a property overseas that he has almost sold and they will then pay the truck money plus the deposit money back to her.

      • Ok you missed that part. Maybe the lawyers can argue negligence, duress. I learnt all this stuff and barely remember a thing lol. The big one is whether the grandmother had to sign a document with the bank about the money being a gift

        • Grandma did not sign any documents , just the normal bank transfers 25k totalling upto 150K for the house

    • it was assumed that the husband was selling a property overseas, and once that sold, a repayment was to be made post-settlement

  • +5

    Sounds like we need to stop letting people get married for permanent residency. Not everyone has the right to live in what was once a well functioning western liberal democracy.

    • and then they bring their parents over who will then claim pension payments. Chinese and Indians and Arabs =)

  • Write them off the will

  • +1

    I feel sorry for her. If it wasn't her kid no way she'd lend 200k to two unemployed people the want to buy a house and start a food truck (ticket to riches! lol more like ticket to minimum wage 18 hour days).

    We have family members we love but wouldn't lend a cent to. They are just built differently and would never pay it back. I still marvel today after so many years they have never changed. These type of people don't when it comes to money. Somehow the world owes it to them.

  • "Count your (her) losses and go".

    Rebuild.
    A broken family relationship is more important and regrettable than filthy money.

  • +4

    not sure what the timeline is for this case, but if the daughter and husband is selling the house not long after buying it, sounds like they are about to do a runner overseas (or will be using the proceeds of the house sale to pay back other debts), so best of luck to grandma……….

    grandma should probably also check and see if they had taken out any loans in her name as well.

    • Thanks , we will check for any other loans as well

  • Is the grandma on Centrelink? If she is, did she tell Centrelink she was lending money to her daughter? Centrelink likes knowing stuff like that. If she told them, there should be a note on her file and she might be able to use that as evidence if she takes them to court?

    I'm not a lawyer, though.

    • and she might be able to use that as evidence if she takes them to court?

      Can she get Centrelink to put a note on her file that she lent you $1m and use that as evidence when she takes you to court?

  • +1

    GM would have had to sign a stat dec saying it was a gift to the daughter \ SIL for the purchase or down payment on a house.
    Bank wouldn't have accepted the money was theirs to use as deposit to toward the mortgage without that.
    It also has to be stated as "non-refundable gift" or words like that where she (the GM) is not accepting it to be repaid or enter in to any repayment agreement for it.
    If thats the case then there is little recourse as it was never expected to be repaid from what she would have signed, that rules out any other agreement they made on the side.
    Could try the financial abuse angle with the bank but sadly I don't think there would be much that could be done.

    • Thanks for your reply. Just checked with my friend , she`s saying that Grandma did not sign any stat dec or put a note/message on the bank transfers all she did was the 25k transactions totalling up to 150k for the house

      • +2

        Seems rather odd as banks look at this stuff in stupid levels of detail, anywhere between 3-6 months or more of financial history is analyzed and they would have seen those payments deposited in to the account which if unexplained (no payslips or justification) trigger red flags.
        Red flags that mean the bank wouldn't lend to them if they cant prove the origin as its not real savings or income.
        Sometimes they want longer periods to see proven savings, not just random money that turns up in account that could have come from friends or family or cash taken out of credit cards and then shifted back in to other accounts to fake.
        Trying to buy a house now and the level of detail the bank has gone in to for statements and how I spend my money is full on, so $150k should have triggered something with the bank surely.

        I guess she needs to get the statements showing the transfer's out and the card and hope for the best.
        Maybe she could go to their lender with the statements and card saying that it wasn't their money? however I doubt the bank cares and if they did it's more likely that everyone involved (aside from the banks as usual) will lose out.

        Bikies?

        • They got the loan from liberty finance

          • @Jam92: Anyway to check if the house is under both names or only his name? It does make a big difference if it’s only under his name.

          • @Jam92: Ah liberty, the place you go when no one else will lend you money

  • +5

    The subtle hints to religion/race in the whole situation seems obvious to one side and ignored by the other side. Is religion just here to divide people?

    Media does a similar thing just gives a small hint and our inner prejudice takes over our thinking.

    Racism works the same way everywhere. Most people would easily ignore hints related to race/religion when they support their perspective and highlight them beyond reasonable level when against them.

    Race / religion being hinted as one of the underlying cause of issue is hard to ignore. I expected more from the oz bargain community we can surely sniff a discount from a million miles.

    • +2

      the OP is obviously hinting at race religion as the cause, and that the 'guy' brain washed this poor innocent sweet girl who otherwise would have never done such a thing. but he backs it up with 'oh no this is not what i thought this is what the grandma says'.. but we all know where he stands, otherwise he wouldn't have even included that small detail in there if he didn't think it himself..

    • It doesn't really matter either way. The daughter borrowed money from the grandmother conditionally, and now she is being asked to return the sum of the loan. The daughter is required to fulfilled the obligations which are associated with the loan. If she does not have the cash on hand, she must either sell assets (OP stated the property was on the market) or declare bankruptcy. The rational behind why the loan was called in is irrelevant.

    • +4

      No, it's relevant.

      Go live as a woman in a strict Muslim country and report back.

      • You're comment ironically disempowers female agency.

        Is the woman in a 'strict muslim country'? No. She's in a well functioning, Western liberal democracy and independently capable of making her own decisions.

  • +1

    Find a better lawyer. Plenty of precedence that can be used to get her money back even without a written contract. The card her daughter sent tells the whole story anyways so everything will be in her favour. Find a better lawyer. Especially someone who has dealt with similar matter. Google it such stories have been making news off late and lot of them have the winning lawyers name. That should be the starting point.
    Unfortunately their mother daughter relationship is dead as. But she might have legal right to be in touch with her grandkids. Cheers!

    • The grandmother might win the case but at what cost of legal fees and emotional stress? I won’t even be surprised that the house is only under his name so when they sell the house guess who keeps all the money? So in the end the daughter is found guilty of owing her mum 150k but she is broke. Would she then sue her husband/soon to be ex husband for the money?

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