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Indie Bundle for Palestinian Aid (1,272 Items from 865 Creators) - US$5 (~A$6.81) @ Itch.io

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I was waiting for this since I heard about it on Reddit. I have had many hours of enjoyment and inspiration from the Racial Justice bundle last year. Bundle of 1000ish things, games, soundtracks, assets, TTRPG, tools, etc. Haven't looked closely enough to unearth any real treats yet but for under seven bucks Australian for the couple of hours wading through weird TTRPG rulesets will be worth it for me personally…

Edit: The creator of the bundle has posted to Twitter there will be further additions "next week", so if you were on the fence about the value of the inclusions in the bundle it might be about to get bargain-ier!

Edit the second: More games and creators added. Deal remains great value for money!

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                    •  

                      @ausmechkeyboards: well maybe you should post that in those threads

                      • +7 votes

                        @petry: When someone puts up a post that mentions a donation to victims in those countries and that post gets bombarded by dozens of people saying the victims are terrorists then sure I most definitely will.

        •  

          And the israelis in turn, lived there before the palestinians. :-D

          •  

            @Faulty P xel: That's a slippery slope, imagine what will happen if the Italians or the Greeks start to lay claim on all the lands they set foot in their long history?

  • +12 votes

    The description has a bit too much political propaganda. It should aim at helping out those victims of war from both sides, not just blaming on government from one side.

    • +16 votes

      Agreed. The Dawn Service should also honour the brave Germans who had to deal with waves of British assaults. After all, the British started the war! Right guys?

      That's a wonderfully misinformed, sad take on what in any other part of the world would be a clear-cut situation of a foreign oppressive group carrying out ethnic cleansing.

      • +16 votes

        You know Hamas want to ethnically cleanse to the Jews, right? I guess you’ve never seen their propaganda. They’re not interested in peace and cooperation. Clear cut situation my ass.

        • +28 votes

          You know the Israelis want to genocide Palestinians right? Hamas are a terrorist group that doesn't represent all Palestinians while the Israeli government represents a majority of Israelis, and multiple Israeli politicians have expressed their desire to genocide Palestinians.

          •  

            @WinstonWithAY: Think you are missing a commit in there somewhere …

          • +6 votes

            @WinstonWithAY: Name three of these politicians please, and if you could link to their quotes advocating genocide that would be great.

            • +3 votes

              @k23man: Winston can't because he's an ignorant idiot who doesn't know the issues and just makes up "facts" because he lacks any. On that note I'd like to say that @WinstonWithAY has advocated in support of pedophilia multiple times. He doesn't even realize that the Israeli government has for decades been made up of a minority government that doesn't represent a majority of Israelis at all. But again, he's someone who has multiple times advocated for the eating of his own feces.

            • +6 votes

              @k23man: Here you go. Incoming prime Minister of Israel none the less
              https://youtu.be/IZgDj4h3SBA

          •  

            @WinstonWithAY: I see. It's ok if both are doing it.

          • +4 votes

            @WinstonWithAY: 100% rubbish. The Israeli government kicked out THEIR own citizens, leaving homes and businesses for Palestinians to squat on, rent free, in order to try and keep the peace! It's literally why the media says in its headlines things like, "Israel EVICTED Palestinians" whenever this stuff happens.

        • +24 votes

          Israel are literally doing that to the Palestinians right now - by destroying their homes and evicting them from ones that are left standing. Of course they're refugees now, and of course they need help.

          Do some research mate, really.

          • +16 votes

            @organamisms: You do realize that the dispute in Sheikh Jarrah is a property dispute. Jews bought that land in 1886 from Arabs in a legal transaction where money was provided just as in any property sale. This transaction was governed over by a Islamic court who would not have favoured the Jewish buyer - so you can likely believe it was a fair deal. Then a bunch of poor Yemeni Jews who were suffering from ethnic cleansing in Yemen at the time moved into homes on that land and lived there until the Arabs/Jordanians kicked them out of the houses, took them as their own, knocked those houses down and took all their belongings. Then Jordan annexed that land. Then in 1956 it offered the land to a few families as part of an UNWRA deal to try to house refugees on the provision that that family would pay them for the right to live there. That transaction never happened. Then in 1967 Israel won the war and took possession of that land. During 1948 - 1967 these properties were being disputed by the Jewish landowners in multiple courts in an attempt to get some compensation from the Jordanian government who had essentially stolen them. Then from 1967 - 1982 it was challenged in an Israeli court and the Arab families living in these homes came to an agreement signed by them that they would have the right to live their in perpetuity as long as they paid a rent (which was 1/20th of what the land was worth at a market rate) and maintained the property. Then in 1991, with the growing Intifada, the families decided they didn't have to honour that agreement and pay rent anymore. And since then it's been in court to decide whether or not they should or should not be evicted for not honouring their agreement.

            But yeah, in your head they have the right to live rent free on land that was legally bought by someone else and which they never paid a dollar for other than a handful of years of rent that was below market. The families there can afford to pay the rent to live there. They just refuse to.

            I really think you need to do some research.

            I mean look at what Egypt has done in the last 10 years in Gaza by destroying over 3500 homes and displacing 80,000 people and then flooding Hamas tunnels with sea water which has made nearly 1/10th of all Gaza land completely unsuitable for living, farming or developing. The damage they've done will require trillions of dollars in remediation. But again, let's blame Israel. Lets not look at Lebanon who has made it impossible for Palestinians there to work or get any benefits. Let's not look at Hamas, who were elected by a majority of Palestinians in Gaza, and see how they were willing to spent enough money on bombs just in the last two weeks, to bomb Israel, as what it would have cost to entirely vaccinated the entirety of the Gazan population from Covid. Let's just make it about Israel a country where when someone hasn't paid rent on a property in 30 years then, and only then, are they finally looking at being evicted. I'm pretty sure if you stopped paying rent after signing a lease you'd be evicted within a few months. But sure, Israel is the bad guy.

            Maybe learn Arabic or Hebrew and actually do some real research instead of just reading really bad blogs and idiots like whoever is the equivalent of a Candace Owens or a Ben Shapiro on these issues. I've read the court documents on these evictions. I cannot see how it's not reasonable under any law. They have a signed agreement from the current tenants saying that they agree the land isn't there's and that they agree they can live there in perpetuity as long as they pay rent and maintain the land. There is currently a legal process whereby the current owners are trying to get them evicted. It's a legal process. It's as fair as you can get. Is it going to be the outcome that all parties are going to be happy with? No. That's not how the law works.

            •  

              @rightguy: This was really interesting to read. Thanks sharing what you learned about the property dispute. Which of this came from reading court documents?

              • +3 votes

                @Hunterex: The documents are available and in the public domain. The signed agreement between the parties was done in the 80s and is in Arabic and can be found online if you search for it.

            • +10 votes

              @rightguy: Unfortunately the dispute isn't just limited to Sheikh Jarrah is it?
              Have you not seen the illegal (according to UN) settlements?

              • +3 votes

                @scar4ace: Illegal according to the UN quite literally means very little. Using that as an argument is baseless. If you use that argument then Taiwan is an illegal settlement according to the UN and ought to be returned to China who are the recognized government of that territory. You'd basically have to then argue that Taiwan is an illegal state and that all settlements there are illegal. It's a bad argument to make. If that's the case then Australia and every other country that has relations with Taiwan should cut off ties until the land is returned to China who the UN recognizes as the owner of that land.

                • +6 votes

                  @rightguy: So let's just keep changing the narrative until it suits us. Illegal is illegal. Line needs to be drawn somewhere.

                  • +4 votes

                    @scar4ace: Illegal isn't illegal when it comes to international law. Why? Because we haven't tested those laws and we don't know what is or isn't illegal. There is no precedence. So trying to say that something is illegal when it may be and it may not be doesn't make sense. This isn't a court system where we have decades of precedence to determine the law. We have absolutely zero precedence. So illegal isn't illegal. Please take an international law course or sit in on a few lectures if you think it's so cut and dry. It isn't. Our own criminal law system isn't cut and dry and we have the benefit of so much precedence. To be clear, there are strong arguments on both sides of the divide as to whether settlements are or aren't illegal. It is unclear. You believing the law is black and white doesn't make it so.

              • +3 votes

                @scar4ace: And again, with regards to some of these settlements. A number of them are on properties bought by Jews in legal transactions that occurred prior to 1948. It's hard to say they're all "illegal" - though Israeli courts have determined certain settlements are illegal and have ordered their removal (such as the Amona settlement for instance). What people don't seem to realize is that the Israeli court system is fair. The Israeli Supreme Court is the most respected Israeli institution even by non-Jews within Israel. And these courts do make fair rulings when it's clear that properties are being built on land belonging to Palestinians or Israeli-Arabs.

                Here is a good link to the land bought by Jews prior to the creation of the State of Israel.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palest...

                I think it's fair to say that there's a right to dispute ownership of land when you have a document showing your purchase of it and there are court records recording those transactions.

                I believe Arabs have that right just as Jews have that right just as Druze have that right just as Beduoins have that right.

                • +5 votes

                  @rightguy: From your link
                  As of 1944, Jews acquired only 6% of the land in Palestine

                  The map also shows the name Palestine. Big difference to what we see on maps today

                  How the land was purchased since the state establishment, under what duress,. Intimidation etc who knows? When Israel is the judge jury and executioner then there's a problem.

                  • +3 votes

                    @scar4ace: Yep. Even more interesting since the Arabic language doesn't even have a sound for the letter P and hence Arab speakers can't even call it Palestine - they have to call it Balestine.

                    Also welcome to learning about an area where over 60% of the land is desert. And that desert, well back then - no one owned it. Another 3% is waterways which no one could own either. Then there's mountains, roads, and other areas that no one could own. And there was plenty of empty space in between towns which was seen as communal property back then (highly recommend studying up about the Ottoman Empire and how people lived which will really enlighten you - highly recommend reading The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 and then studying the Emancipation Act of 1873 to really understand the history of the time) So 6% of landownership in that area, at that time, is substantial.

                    Land hasn't been purchased since state establishment. You clearly don't understand how land titles work in Israel. 93% of land in Israel is owned by the ILA who then long term leases it out to people.

                    I highly recommend during more research on understanding how Israeli laws formed around property. Read the The Absentees’ Property Law and The Land Acquisition Law so you can get a better rounded sense of how the laws have worked with regards to these issues and understanding the historical context to their creation. I feel like you have a very basic understanding of the way Israeli society and its legal frameworks are enacted. Highly recommend actually doing more research and informing yourself about it if you plan on forming any strong opinions about these concepts.

                    • +7 votes

                      @rightguy: Haha love that argument they don't even have the letter P. It's Filistin in Arabic. فلسطين‎ Anglicised as Palestine.

                      Highly recommemd you come off your pedestal and inform yourself of how your beautiful Israeli society with the most well respected institution of the Israeli supreme Court even by non-jews is just BS in your head that you tell yourself. Judge jury executioner, sounds great,

            • +1 vote

              @rightguy: That was really insightful. Separately, here is an interesting article from an israeli newspaper.

              https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/gideon-levy-bulldozi...

              Decendants of the rightful owners of that land are probibly living in gaza at the moment (some still hold deeds to large blocks of land that is now israel). Should they be allowed to return to their land and claim that land as their own?

          • +1 vote

            @organamisms: Even you have used the correct word: "evicted". i.e. You can't be "evicted" from something you legally OWN (even though the Israeli government did to its own citizens in the Palestinian's favour). Palestinians are living on land that has belonged to Israelis for hundreds of years. Rent free. So they've had a few decades to save up that rent money not being spent, and move to any of the plethora of muslim nations around them that surround the teeny dot of Israel, and buy their own place that no-one could ever evict them from. Just because you stayed in someone's house rent free for a few decades doesn't make it yours. Oh, sure, the laws of your country may say you have a legal right to it, or maybe not. But it still doesn't make it morally correct to squat on someone else's stuff and then whine like you're hard done by when they come to reclaim it.

        • +4 votes

          It's crazy how polarising this issue is, especially on the internet. Any bit of nuance is shot down in favour of the arguments from one side. I think it's caused by people who can't accept there's no "good guy" in a conflict.

          • +1 vote

            @Michael15286: There doesn’t need to be a good guy. If you commit a crime and go to court there is no such thing as “yeah but the other guy is a doofus” defence.

            •  

              @ausmechkeyboards: The problem here is that the dispute is a civil one. It is about property rights for the most part. Whether you're looking at the microcosm of the Sheikh Jarrah case or the larger one of determining final borders for a two-state solution - that's what it's about at the heart. This isn't a criminal matter. The solution isn't by being punitive. It's about determining a compromise.

              • +7 votes

                @rightguy: No, it was never a civil dispute. Ethnic cleansing is a war crime, not a civil dispute. The forceful removal of a million people and the pillaging of their towns in 1948 through to attacks on civilian infrastructure in 2021 is not a civil matter. This is why the ICC is constantly blocked from investigating.

                Suggesting that it’s not a criminal matter seems to wholly disregard what constitutes a crime.

            • +1 vote

              @ausmechkeyboards: As a matter of fact, extenuating circumstances are crucial to legal disputes between two parties in nearly every case. You couldn't be more wrong.

              • +5 votes

                @Meconium: What are you talking about. Using weasel words and big boy phrases like “extenuating” and “parties” doesn’t mean you can try to frame ethnic cleansing as a civil dispute hahaha imagine Nuremberg trial defences tried to frame the invasion of France as a civil consequence of extenuating German financial troubles hahaha what a world.

          •  

            @Michael15286: No, it's that some people don't even know they've been biased by false propaganda, rather than historical fact. There really is a 'good guy' here, as long you accept that at some point even a good guy has to defend themselves and their family from someone determined to wipe you from the face of the earth so they can steal all your stuff.

            It took me a long time to work out what was happening here because there is so much propaganda. It's not 'over some book' like someone else here said. If you want a simple summary PM me because I'd probably get banned for summarising it here.

        • +4 votes

          If someone comes to your home and asks you to evacuate because his 3000 year old book says that his forefathers lived here and then calls you terrorist to defend your home, how would you feel ? Have some research mate.

          •  

            @ChipsChicky: Actually that's not what happened. Jews purchased land from Arab and Turkish landowners at the fair market value price during a period from the late 1800s. That land was bought and paid for. There weren't any guns used to point at people's heads. And there's records in the Ottoman courts of the sales. So whose home is it? Cause I'd say if someone bought something in a legal court from someone who claimed to own it and a Muslim court who had authority over the land for hundreds of years agreed that the sales were fair and legal then they are likely fair and legal.

            • +6 votes

              @rightguy: I believe the ones who bought from Ottomans in 1800s would have occupied homes straight away rather than waiting till 1948 to start colonizing it, after being expelled from all over the Europe, and accepted only by Palestinians with open hands, which is going on till now.
              Do you think that someone in Jerusalem shall evacuate his home today bcz someone bought some land in 1800s from Ottomans ? Have you seen a single such record ?

              • +8 votes

                @ChipsChicky: Haha yeah bought in 1880 but want to occupy Sheikh Jarrah in 2021. Good point

                •  

                  @scar4ace: Um you do realise that no one was living in Sheikh Jarrah prior to 1865 right? It was an undeveloped part of that region until Arab and Jewish developers bought up land and started to develop a neighbourhood. So yes if someone bought land in Sheikh Jarrah in 1880 they probably have a moral and legal right to that land in 2021. I'd love to know the argument where you think they don't. Please argue it. I beg you.

                  • +6 votes

                    @rightguy: So on one hand you say the reason they only owned 6% of the land by 1944, because most was empty space, and then on the other hand you say Jewish developers bought up empty land legally and they are entitled to? So this empty land was part of that 6%, correct

                    Then why does Israel occupy over 55% of the territory today?

              • +1 vote

                @ChipsChicky: Yes I learnt Turkish specifically to study those records for my graduate studies. Thankfully Turkish from the 1800s onward is a bit easier to learn when you already speak French so it wasn't as difficult as I imagined. So yes I have sat in rooms with those documents and studied them and translated them. So yes I've see multiple records. I have held them in my hands and looked at them with my eyes.

                You really don't understand that region whatsoever or its history. The Jewish purchases of land in Jerusalem was purchased primarily from Arab landowners and not the Ottoman landowners. Other than in certain areas that were not yet developed. Ottoman landowners primarily owned swaths of non-populated farm land that was purchased by Jews. Inhabited and homed land was bought by Jews from Arabs. I don't know where you're getting your information from but I'd do more research if I was you.

                • +3 votes

                  @rightguy: Thanks for info. So in 1800s, Jews had bought all of the Jerusalem from Arabs and they started to move in after 1948, when they were expelled from Europe ???

                  They may have bought some homes etc, but this ethnic cleansing and capturing all the land and evacuating people from thr homes in 2021 doesn't makes any realistic sense.

                  If your tribe had bought some land in london in 1800, can you go and ask whole london to evacuate ? Does this makes any sense ?

      • +4 votes

        To better understand why all the bloodshed now, read carefully how it started and draw your own conclusions.
        https://www.britannica.com/event/Six-Day-War

        • +4 votes

          I don’t need to look at a historical event to realise that the current actions of ethnic cleansing carried out by the Israeli military and government towards Palestinians is wrong.

          • +5 votes

            @ausmechkeyboards: So understanding history, context, the political and relationships that precipitated the current events are irrelevant? Wow. Good to know. Might have actually learned something useful.

            • +4 votes

              @Hunterex: What history do I need to know in order to determine whether or not an action today is oppressive?

              What does Egypt, Jordan or Syria fifty years ago have to do with Palestinians being killed today?

              You live in some odd bubble where you think killing hundreds of children can be justified and I’m not entertaining it.

              • +2 votes

                @ausmechkeyboards: “where you think killing hundreds of children can be justified”

                what? That’s a leap if I’ve ever seen one.

                • +1 vote

                  @Hunterex: Is this a moment of self awareness where you realise what you’re advocating for and what I’m refusing to entertain?

                  • +2 votes

                    @ausmechkeyboards: How is learning from history supporting either side of a conflict? I guess Jewish children’s lives are worth less or something. Do you hate Jews? Is that it? Oh wait you didn’t say that? Did I misconstrue everything you just said? Oh dear.

                    How about you stop reinterpreting reality into something that’s convenient to argue against. Unless you really want to make me out as a cartoonish murder hungry Zionist?

              • +2 votes

                @ausmechkeyboards: Um you do know that Egypt demolished 3500 homes in Gaza just within the last 6 years and displaced over 100,000 Palestinians in Gaza from their homes/villages and then used seawater to flood Hamas tunnels which has left around 1/10th of Gazan land uninhabitable and unable to be farmed or developed. Something that will cost trillions of dollars to remediate.

                But yeah I guess that has nothing to do with Palestinians or their cause today.

                Nice to know that you have very little knowledge about a subject you feel very strongly about. I can tell you that my Palestinian family members would be fuming with you for saying that Egypt, Jordan and Syria have nothing to do with Palestinians being killed today. And if you actually knew the history and understood the political mechanisms in place you might realize how foolish and privileged you sound. I do love when Westerners assume they understand the history and reality of a place they've never been, a culture they've never experienced and a people whose languages they can't speak or read.

                •  

                  @rightguy: Do you think what Egypt has done is bad?

                  Would you consider it to be a crime?

                  • +2 votes

                    @ausmechkeyboards: A legal crime or a moral crime? A legal crime - no. Because there isn't a lot of precedence in international law and what specific law would you be stating they violated?

                    A moral crime - potentially.

                    They certainly should be compensating the owners of the home and should pay a few trillion dollars for the remediation of the earth they destroyed. Will they? Likely not. But just to be clear in the last 10 years Egypt has displaced more Palestinians and destroyed more Palestinian property than Israel has. And yet you likely didn't know about it and probably don't care. Why? Because your Western media and Western approach is consistently what can we do to promote anti-Semitism and hatred towards Israel in order to justify the blood you have on your hands for thousands of years of crimes your ancestors perpetrated against a people. You don't care about Palestinian people and you certainly don't care about justice.

                    There are people in that region in far worse situations than Palestinians. That's the truth. Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank have a similar GDP to Arabs in Syria, Egypt and Jordan. They have one of the better life expectancies and health outcomes in that region. We ought to be focusing in situations like Yemen and Sudan. There are far more confronting conflicts happening today. And if you went to a refugee camp and spoke to the Sudanese women who have suffered horrible gangrapes by Janjaweed you might feel differently. But instead you sit in your comfortable Australian home and think you know a thing about the world let alone about the Middle East, let alone about the history of the Palestinian people. What you know is absolutely nothing. Please stop believing you're an expert on something that you know bugger all about. And certainly stop recolonizing the history of my people by believing you have some authority over it. You don't.

                    Do you know what I do when people are discussing an issue I know very little about. I don't get into deep arguments over it. Maybe this works in places where people know just the surface about an issue but I can tell you, as someone with deep roots in this topic, you are making yourself look like an idiot here. Stop.

                    •  

                      @rightguy: What you’re saying is that it should be tested in an international criminal court to determine whether or not a crime has taken place?

                      • +1 vote

                        @ausmechkeyboards: Nope that's not what I'm saying whatsoever. I don't see a purpose in using international courts to dispute property claims be them damages or otherwise. Negotiations should take place between parties and reparations agreed to. International courts should be used for individual war criminals. I do not believe that there is any right to take a country or a state to court. Is a state its government? Is it its people? International courts should focus on individuals and not nations. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

                      •  

                        @ausmechkeyboards: You do realize that the International Criminal Court only has the ability to try individuals and not nations right? Or are you this ignorant as well?

                        • +1 vote

                          @rightguy: So your position here is “Egypt bad, but meh”

                          Nice one. Explains why you don’t care about the genocide, ethnic cleansing and torture taking place from the Israelis towards the Palestinians in their open air prisons.

                          • +2 votes

                            @ausmechkeyboards: Define an open air prison. Define genocide. Define ethnic cleansing. And then provide clear utter examples of what you mean. Gaza is not an open air prison. I have family in Gaza. They have freedom of movement and all other freedoms allotted to them with their only issues being certain freedoms denied to them by the Hamas government. How is Australia any different from being an open air prison considering that we aren't allowed to leave the country at the moment (with few exceptions) due to the Covid pandemic? If you're talking about freedom of movement then also realize that Gaza shares a border with Egypt which has sealed it since Fatah was removed as the leadership there and Hamas came into power. All nations are allowed to control their borders. Israel and Egypt have every right to control the flow of people and items through their border into Gaza and both do. I'm guessing you've never been to Gaza. Because I, and my family living there, always laugh when people call it an open air prison. Again, utter Western stupidity. I care about my people and I care about our history. What I've seen is decades of very ignorant people like you spouting whatever you want and using my people as a cover for your own agenda. You don't give a damn about people. You certainly don't give a damn about the Palestinian people. What you give a damn about is making a bunch of talking points and using a people and their issues as a means of attacking someone. It's useless. What you're doing gives no remedy to solving the issue which is that there needs to be a two-state solution with safe borders and mutually beneficial economic and social ties between nations. That both countries will need to make some concessions with regards to land. But what you don't understand is that Israel has accepted an Arab minority. There will always be 20-30% of Israel that is non-Jewish Arab. And Palestine ought to accept that it will have to have some Jewish minority as well and embrace that. Creating a mono-ethnic Palestinian state, as was done with the rest of the Arab world, is a horrendous outcome. But people like you seem to advocate for it and then get high and mighty over false claims about genocide, open air prisons, ethnic cleansing and torture. I could make all those claims about Australia. I could easily call Australia an Apartheid state as it meets the same stupid definition used to call Israel one. But what's the point?

                            Do me a favour. You, as a Westerner, look at your hands, and know that your ancestors raped, murdered and tortured Jews for thousands of years. That you have blood on your hands. And that you've done little in the way of repairing that. Don't wipe that blood onto our Arab hands. We too have in the last 110 years, with the rise of Arab Nationalism, gotten our hands a fair bit bloody. We certainly have blood on our hands from when we invaded and colonized much of Asia, Africa and the Middle East. But we haven't had the target of the Jews like you Christian Westerners have. We haven't had that deep stain of blood that stains your hands and the hands of your parents and the hands of your children. Stop pretending that you care about us. Stop wiping your blood stains on us. Deal with your own hatred and prejudices. And stop colonizing our issues and our circumstances and our history and trying to fit it to a false narrative that suits you. It's disgusting. It's shameful. And it's utterly racist.

                            •  

                              @rightguy: It sounds like you’re very upset about the ethnic cleansing, genocide and torture of the Palestinians. And rightly so, it’s very unjust.

                              • +2 votes

                                @ausmechkeyboards: What ethnic cleansing, genocide and torture of Palestinians? Quite honestly the only ongoing torture of any Palestinian population I'm aware of is that of political prisoners under Hamas who are routinely being arrested, tortured and murdered for simply doing things that you and I take for granted. But you don't care about those people - you don't care about anything other than hating people and blaming them for things that you have no understanding of.

          • +1 vote

            @ausmechkeyboards: Except repeating a false statement ad nauseam doesn't make it true.

            •  

              @Faulty P xel: Do you mean false statements like Hamas using human shields?

              If it’s not true then Israel should just volunteer for ICC investigation, they have nothing to lose because it’s not true, right?

              • +3 votes

                @ausmechkeyboards: If you're trying to say Hamas doesn't use human shields that's 100% false. Not only do I know an IDF soldier who saw it multiple times, but I've seen the cam footage. Time and again them cowering behind screaming women desperate to get free to grab a nearby toddler and run out, but him holding her back by her cloak with one hand, machine gun in the other, trying to fire under the women's wildly-flailing arms with the soldiers desperately trying to talk him down to a simple arrest, or where not possible, get a single round into his leg to disable him without killing her. And if that IS what you meant, don't then try and tell me the women were all their wives begging not to kill him, because: a) They wouldn't be pulling away trying to get free, they'd willing stand in front of him, and b) later checks confirm they're nothing to do with the family, living half way across the city from that location. They just run into other people's open apartments or homes and grab the first innocent, knowing soldiers will restrain from shooting lest they hit the innocent.

                I've also seen footage of people with suicide vests sent by Hamas through Israeli checkpoints, where the vest is then triggered remotely. Another was of a toddler sent toward checkpoint guards by his own father hoping he would be shot so the video could be uploaded. The father can be heard in the video encouraging his son to die for ____!

                As for volunteering for an investigation… I don't know what you're referring to there, but assuming it's even true, you do realise It's their country, right? Why should they submit to some investigation by someone else? Few countries would.

              • +3 votes

                @ausmechkeyboards: But no, I was referring to: "ethnic cleansing, genocide and torture of Palestinians". This is complete nonsense. The same people, same races, same religions, are in BOTH areas. In fact those living on the 'Israel' side who unlike the other side aren't afraid to speak on camera, are quite content to live under Israeli rule. Meanwhile their counterparts of the same belief/race on the outer are miserable, poor, oppressed - not by Israel, but by Hamas. All that money pouring in, yet they can't do a damn thing for the failing infrastructure or hungry people… just self-indulgence and more weapons and pensions for anyone 'doing the deed' to anyone else on the other side: jew or muslim, it doesn't matter to Hamas. An offer which many take up because of the misery Hamas inflicts (not Israel).

                • -1 vote

                  @Faulty P xel: Repeating something ad naseum doesn’t make it true. Should I trust you, the anti-Arab Zionist with IDF buddies or do I trust every human rights group?

                  Hmm gonna be a tough one!

                  •  

                    @ausmechkeyboards: You said it didn't exist. I've seen bodycam footage of it. Hard to deny video evidence. (Well, continuous uncut video evidence anyway, unlike the few slice-and-dice videos I've seen by Hamas sympathsizers with a false narrative tacked on begging for $.)

                    As for human rights groups… Pfft… First, you'd have to qualify that by proving you actually had a list of "every" human rights group in the world, then you'd have to provide official quotes proving "every" one actually says what you claim they do. You can't and won't do that, but you say it anyway as if it's solid fact and it just ain't. That's a propaganda technique.

                    Second, even if it were true, SO WHAT. Every organisation is manned by people, and people have personal biases and agendas. (Their main agenda usually being they want to continue to get paid $.) So of course they're going to say whatever rolls in the cash. i.e. If one of them said, "We're collecting money for Palestinian aid but we know most of it goes to Hamas, and from touring the place we saw the infrastructure is crumbling, people are going hungry, so it's obvious that sadly most or none of the money we collect actually ever reaches them…" How many people would continue to donate? And therefore, how many in that organisation would keep their jobs?

                    So they only take step one. 'Palestine' asks for money, makes a few claims, the organisations collect donations, keep a share to keep themselves employed, then give them the rest - who really cares if what they claim is true or not, that's not our job to fact check or judge if their claims are valid or causes worthy.

                    Third, this word "Zionist" as if it's some kind of loaded supervillian term. Ooooo. What nonsense. As I said elsewhere here, it just means being patriotic, proud of their heritage, nation, a people who want their independent democratic nation to continue and thrive. Well, so what. So does every other nation. It doesn't suddenly become some satanic or criminal word just because someone wants it to be because they hate them.

                    Four, I'm not anti-Arab. In fact I've banked with Arab bank for years. And personally, I don't care who you trust. Your trust or lack thereof doesn't change the fact you said Hamas using human shields doesn't happen when enough of us have seen it does to know that's a false statement.

                    • -2 votes

                      @Faulty P xel: Zionist here means someone who believes that the land inherently belongs to Jews and that Jews have priority over its administration. Being an anti-Arab Zionist means you don’t care for the lives or livelihoods of Arabs and you strongly support Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. Anyone who reads your comments can derive that with their eyes closed.

                      This matches your position on the issues at hand:

                      The Narcissist's Prayer

                      That didn't happen.
                      And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
                      And if it was, that's not a big deal.
                      And if it is, that's not my fault.
                      And if it was, I didn't mean it.
                      And if I did, you deserved it.

                      • +1 vote

                        @ausmechkeyboards:

                        1. Not all Palestinians are Arabs.
                        2. It's common knowledge Arabs fund terrorism against Israelis via Hamas. And by Israeli I don't mean just "Jews", because there are Palestinians of different origins, and other people of various races besides, all happily living cohesively and peacefully within Israel who wouldn't have it any other way.
                        3. Of course I support Israel's existence as a state… But not strongly, and not weakly: just rationally. They should own what they've owned for some 1200 years, Palestinians living within their border love the place, and Palestinians under Hamas are miserable. That speaks volumes.

                        So yes, I do care about Arab Palestinians. In fact the best thing that could happen for them is Israel ruling over much more land, because they'd treat even more people the opposite of Hamas: equally/generously.

                        Here's just one Arab who has the unique perspective of having been on both sides of the border, who was both saddened by her experience with her fellow Arabs, then grateful for the completely opposite and welcome reception received from Israelis in her mother's time of desperate need: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn-yq6By82E. Yeah, it's one story, but she has others revealing the true nature of Hamas.

                        Btw, the fact you cite that prayer shows you're just trying to score cheap points, and therefore the one with closed eyelids.

        • +2 votes

          What led to the 6 day war? Nice to pick and choose a point on history to draw your conclusions.
          .What about the palestinian people living there for hundreds of years before the Balfour treaty gave the land for the formation of Israel - a Jewish Zionist state?

          • +2 votes

            @scar4ace: Firstly the Balfour Declaration was a Declaration and not a treaty. It had zero legal bearing on the situation and never gave anything to anyone. A treaty is an international agreement. The Balfour Declaration was a sentiment in a letter. They are completely two different things. What legal devise provided the formation of Israel was the UN resolution in 1947.

            As for the Six Day War what led to it was the lack of normalized relationship between Israel and its neighbouring states following the 1948 war. It followed Egypt throwing the UNEF out of the region and closing the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships. Both those acts were essentially acts of war.

            • +1 vote

              @rightguy: Yes you are right declaration.

              The UN resolution 1947 came into play on the end of the British mandate of Palestine which was informed by British policies in the region to support the aspirations of establishment of the Zionist state, the Balfour declaration playing a huge part.

              The declaration had many long-lasting consequences. It greatly increased popular support for Zionism within Jewish communities worldwide, and became a core component of the British Mandate for Palestine, the founding document of Mandatory Palestine, which later became Israel and the Palestinian territories. As a result, it is considered a principal cause of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict,

              No wonder there were acts of war between neighbouring states and "Israel" which itself didn't exist prior to 1947. Land had just been carved up and dished out regardless of the who the majority of people were that lived there. What did you want the neighbours to do? Throw a party?

              • +2 votes

                @scar4ace: I don't think you quite grasp the issues or the history. And yes it would have been nice for everyone to throw a party. Palestine didn't exist as a sovereign state either until then. And it was carved up not only into Israel but also into Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. The land you call Palestine today was known by the people living there as a region of Ottoman Syria. To the people living there they never referred to it as Palestine. Only Westerners like you did. My family who lived there never called themselves Palestinians. Only after you Westerners took control of the area did you give them the title of being Palestinians. They never called themselves that. They can't even pronounce the word because there is no P sound in Arabic. To them it was just an eyalet of the Turkish empire who had carved it up themselves time and time again into different eyalets or beylerbeyliks over the prior 400 years or so. And then later the area around Jerusalem in the late 19th century became a sanjak. But I'm sure you have never heard of these words.

                What frustrates me so much is how Westerners like yourself have done nothing but create a myth out of the history of my culture and then utilize it as a means of trying to make yourself feel better about what your culture has done to the Jewish people for centuries. And then you create this myth that there has been this war between Jews and Arabs going back centuries - a myth that is utter bullshit. Just so that Westerners like you can try to pretend that you don't have blood on your hands. Stop thinking you know anything about the history or the context of the current Israeli-Palestinian crisis. All you are doing is whitewashing history and trying to pretend that you have some awareness that you don't.

                The war of 1948 was a bad war. It was a needless war. But it was not as you say the result of Israeli land grabs. It was a result of the growth of Arab nationalism which grew at the same time as Zionism with the same type of agenda. A national homeland for Arabs under their control, with a goal of casting off the Ottoman rulers. The problems were that Zionism and Arab Nationalism wanted the same thing at the same time but were in absolute conflict with one another. It also did not help that Westerners had brought with them anti-Semitism into the Middle East and that Arab Nationalists had sadly looked to how the Nazis had dealt with the Jews during the Holocaust and had been supportive of the Third Reich. The Arab Nationalist movement to take over the whole of that area failed. Instead they should have agreed to the UN lines and worked with the Jewish state to create economic and social ties. The Arab states should have been happy to see their Jewish minority populations succeed and grow instead of stealing from them and expelling them. And the Jewish state should have been happy with an Arab minority population and should not have expelled them and taken their land. The problem was that these two competing nationalist identities were overseen by men who could not find a way of bridging them because these men, like yourself, saw the world in black and white, good and evil, Arab and Jew.

                Better men would have thrown a party. They would have done what our ancestors have always done in the past and learned to live in peace together and been hospitable and kind to one another. But that didn't happen because under Western colonialism we all lost our way. And we are still lost.

                • +1 vote

                  @rightguy: Only Westerners like you did

                  Uh, I am not a westerner. Half your points addressees to me don't actually apply to me or my views on the matter

                  The war of 1948 was a bad war. It was a needless war. But it was not as you say the result of Israeli land grabs. It was a result of the growth of Arab nationalism which grew at the same time as Zionism with the same type of agenda. A national homeland for Arabs under their control, with a goal of casting off the Ottoman rulers.
                  Ottoman rulers ? In 1948?

                  Instead they should have agreed to the UN lines and worked with the Jewish state to create economic and social ties. The Arab states should have been happy to see their Jewish minority populations succeed and grow instead of stealing from them and expelling them. And the Jewish state should have been happy with an Arab minority population and should not have expelled them and taken their land.
                  Anyway, I agree (mostly) with this bit.

                  • +1 vote

                    @scar4ace: Please read what I wrote. I clearly stated: " It was a result of the growth of Arab nationalism which grew at the same time as Zionism with the same type of agenda. A national homeland for Arabs under their control, with a goal of casting off the Ottoman rulers." Note the phrase "result of the growth" - hence the 1948 war can be traced to the growth of Arab Nationalism in the latter part of the 19th century. Read the works of writers of the time like Ibrahim al-Yaziji, Francis Marrash and Muhammad Abduh. Do some research on The Young Arab Society. Learn about the rise of Arab Nationalism and then its later ties to Nazi Germany. It's not a pretty history but it is the history of the world we live in.

                    •  

                      @rightguy: Maybe but the Arab control of their states and homes and fall of Ottoman rule was largely successful before 1948.

                      The 1948 war seems pretty well aligned to the cessation of British mandate for Palestine, establishment of the Zionist home of Israel and declaration of independence. It can be seen as the first staking of claim of the Arab Palestinian people against the newly declared independent state of Israel, regardless of what the roots of Arab nationalism were.

                      Anyway, god speed friend. And thanks for the discussion.

                      • +1 vote

                        @scar4ace: then you obviously weren't aware that the 1948 war began in 1947 with the 1947–1949 Palestine war. And you're right. Syria and Lebanon had overcome their French mandates. Egypt had gained its in 1922 and the Hashemites stole part of Palestine as their own kingdom after they aligned with the British to overthrow the Ottomans in the Arab Revolt.

                        And still, despite all that Arab independence, those countries were not satisfied with that and tried to assume control over the newly formed State of Israel and committed ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Jews in both Palestine and in their own countries in doing so. It's a pretty ugly history that us Arabs haven't done anything about.

                        Can I ask? Why do you say "Zionist home of Israel" but not "Arab Nationalist home of Palestine"? Why do you have this disdain of Zionism but no disdain towards Arab Nationalism which ended up with massive genocide, ethnic cleansing and displacement of peoples?

                  • +1 vote

                    @scar4ace: You might not be a Westerner but it's clear that your knowledge and attitudes about these issues have been formed through Western media and the narrative of the West. People who understand the richness of our history do not speak like this.

                    •  

                      @rightguy: Maybe just stop making assumptions :)
                      I am familiar with the 1947-49 Palestine war, which led to the displacement of close to a million Palestinian people. This war was led to the establishment of Israel state.

                      Also just quit with the faux anger about "you don't get me, my people, my culture, boohoo"

                      You are not the only one with "Palestinian links". The Palestinians I know are pretty damn certain about the root cause of their issues today, and with the land grab and subjugation from Israel. Unlike you "with your Arab-blaming Palestinian family members", hiding behind your keyboard in an Australian forum, there are Palestinians we see on the news, young kids being tortured and jailed by the IDF, Palestinian families being forced from their homes. Guess who they are blaming?

                      You don't need to learn Arabic or Turkish to understand that, you don't need to do University courses, and study law in various languages. Give us a break.

                      • +1 vote

                        @scar4ace: Give me a break. You clearly aren't familiar with much. You called the Balfour Declaration a treaty which shows what an ignorant person you just happen to be. Great that you think that millions of people can be boiled down to a handful of people on TV. That shows what a small-minded individual you are. As a Palestinian who understands my history, who has family and friends, who has experienced the culture, all I can tell you is that you are a massive fool. I didn't have to learn Arabic btw - that happens to be my mother tongue. But thanks for adding to your ignorance.

                        Happy to move away from a keyboard and meet you in person for a coffee anytime. Private message me and we can talk offline and I'm happy to show you what a ridiculous ignorant individual you are. Honestly your attempts to boil down hundreds of years of history that you know nothing about into a few talking points is utterly offensive. I don't know why you can't grasp that and why you don't understand how offensive that is.

                        My anger isn't faux. I've been dealing with ignorant individuals like you my entire life who think they know more about my people and my history than I do. It's really pathetic when people think they understand an issue because they've seen something on television or they've read an article or they've watched a documentary. Let me be clear, throughout this conversation you've shown yourself to be lacking in knowledge. So stop pretending you're anything but a very very ignorant person who has entered into an argument with someone who isn't afraid to call you out on your gross ignorance. I highly recommend you stop doubling down on your stupidity and maybe just do something wise and sit this one out buddy.

                        • -1 vote

                          @rightguy: Tldr
                          I knew you'd write another essay.

                          Lipstick on a pig still a pig.

                          "Just a Property dispute" sure Mr. Palestinian.

                          Buy land in 1880 and move in 2021. Sure.

                          You're just a Zionist troll. Goodbye

                          • +1 vote

                            @scar4ace: You're an utter idiot. Sorry that 305 words is an essay to you. Most adults can read that in under a minute. I genuinely for the people in your life who have to put up with your stupidity. I'm sorry that you clearly don't read and clearly don't understand the issues at hand. I'm far from a Zionist. What I am is a realist. I don't excuse bad behaviour. I don't wash over the history of things be it good or bad. I accept it and try to make determinations from it. You however aren't interested in anything but the sound of your own breath. And all that is coming out of it is a lot of non-sensical hot air.

                            • +1 vote

                              @rightguy: Jerusalem is like rock-paper-scissors-shotgun.
                              Taş - Arab qtr
                              Nir - Jewish qtr
                              Makrat - Armenian qtr
                              Bunduqia - Christian qtr

                              For decades, three have faced unjust discrimination by…guess who?
                              The end-game for them is the Temple Mount, let us not forget, but only after they find their perfect (I mean perfect) golden calf.

                              This utter nonsense in the "Holy City" equates to Revelationists just wanting to see the world burn.

                              •  

                                @Speckled Jim: This dude said he doesn't "wash over the history of things be it good or bad" while in the same breath is of the view that the Palestinian/Israeli problem is literally a property dispute because Arabs won't recognise purchase agreements from 150 years ago hahaha.

      •  

        Isn't it also clear cut that Hamas are a proscribed terrorist group in Australia and elsewhere overseas? Isn't it clear-cut the Palestinian terrorists fired indiscriminately into Israeli civilian population centres in a bid to 'ethnically cleans' and commit genocide on Israelis but in particular to slaughter the 'Yahud'? That's what's written in the Hamas charter. Don't lecture us on a situation that's anything but clear-cut to rational folks.

        •  

          Yeah, Hamas sucks. You know what also sucks? The fact that Israel brought them into existence and uses them as as part of their genocidal excuse to target schools, hospitals and other buildings whenever people get upset about the ongoing ethnic cleansing.

          Your argument here is basically saying the historical Aboriginal resistance to the British can be considered ethnic cleansing or genocide against the British lol. Nobody will say "hey, when the British went to America they were often attacked by the local Native American populations - the Native Americans are so bad."

          I mean they did do that at the time. All of them did. The British justified it as being "for the crown" and the Spanish and Portuguese had their religious direction to spread their faith. But they're all universally accepted as being on the wrong side of history.

          The situation in Palestine is the same. It's very clear cut. Foreigners invading and taking land from the locals, and continuing to do so in spite of international condemnation.

          • +4 votes

            @ausmechkeyboards: Israel didn't bring Hamas into existence. Arab Nationalism did. It's an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.- a movement that had literally nothing to do with Israel. Can I ask you a serious question? Do you know a (profanity) single thing about the area and people other than what you read on the back of a matchbox because you sincerely are one of the most ignorant people I've ever met.

            There is absolutely no similarity between the situation between Native Americans and Palestinians. It is in fact two completely different situations. The issue between Palestine and Israel is really the issue between the ideals of Arab Nationalism and Zionism. Two movements that grew at the same time and never fully found a way to co-exist.

            You saying it is clear-cut does not make it clear-cut. Because it isn't. You continue saying land was taken when much of that land was legally purchased. Did Jews take land from Arabs? Sure. Did Arabs take land from Jews? Sure. So we have a mutually problematic issue. How do we solve a problem where two people did two bad things to one another? Now what Israel did was they ended up taking all the Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries in as full citizens. What the rest of the Arab world hasn't done is follow suit and do the same with the Palestinians. And that's the main issue. The main issue is that you have a people who are continually rejected by their own people on the basis of being used as pawns in a battle with another nation. Quite literally the UNRWA was set up to specifically deal with both Jewish and Arab refugees of the Israeli/Arab conflict. But since the early 50s the Jewish refugees were able to resettle. They were given full status rights. And that was in the 50s, prior to Israel taking over control of East Jerusalem or Gaza or the West Bank or the Golan Heights. Palestinians have not been given the rights they should be given by the Arab countries where they live. That's the issue. We shouldn't have the UNRWA as an organization anymore. The other Arab nations should have been as kind to the Palestinians as what the Israelis were to the Jewish refugees coming from places like Yemen and Iraq. But they've been in limbo for decades now and you make it like Israel is the bad guy.

            The Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank is around 2 million people. There are over 3.5 million people in camps in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. And in all those countries my people are second-class citizens with less rights, opportunities and health outcomes than the rest of the population. I have family in Gaza, in the West Bank and in Lebanon. The worst of the bunch are the family in Lebanon. There they have intense poverty and no chance to overcome it. It would be so easy for the Arab world to just allow people to apply for citizenship. My cousins are 3rd generation born in Lebanon but can't get citizenship. I have cousins in Saudi Arabia who likewise will never have those rights.

            Why? Because the Arab League has made laws that bar any member state from granting Palestinians citizenship. Why? Because the status of my people as refugees is a useful tool by the Arab League against the West and against Israel. We could literally solve the Palestinian humanitarian crisis today, right now, by simply granting every Palestinian living abroad in a refugee camp citizenship. But the Arab world continues, like you and every other idiot in this chat, to look at Palestinians not as human beings but as a tool in some argument or war.

            Anyways, again, please stop posting stupid things about things you know nothing about. It's sad as hell.

            •  

              @rightguy: Israel supported, funded and collided with Hamas' founders because they saw them as being preferable to Fatah. Somehow Israeli leadership at the time openly admits to this The fact that you don't pretend this didn't happen yet another nail in the coffin for your stories my "Zionist Arab Gazan Frenchman who speaks Turkish" friend.

              The best part of this conversation is that I've heard more nuanced arguments from Israelis inside Israel. You have the perception of a teenager that just came back from a birthright trip lol.

              • +1 vote

                @ausmechkeyboards: I grew up in Ottawa, Canada. That's why I speak French. My mother tongue is Arabic though and that's what we spoke at home. I never claimed I'm from Gaza. I said I have family in Gaza. My family is badawiyyin (Bedouin) on one side and Palestinian-Arab on the other. I feel ties strongest to my Bedouin ancestry and you trying to craft a story that denies me those ties is pretty sad. But I am also very aware of the entirety of the situation. I have cousins who both live in Gaza and I have cousins who live in Rahat and have served in the IDF. If you know Arab families you should know there's a lot of cousins. As a holder of a Canadian passport I've travelled through much of the Middle East including Israel and Palestinian Territories. I have family that is anti-Israel and family that are massive Israelis. You should see my Facebook feed in mid-May, it's really interesting to behold. But most of the people in my family see everything from two sides. There are not many in my family that hold extreme views. We were raised by grandparents and parents who were more interested in truth than false pride. The reality is that history is not nice to anyone really. If you understood Bedouin culture, which I'm assuming you are ignorant of, you would understood that honour trumps everything. The importance of Sharaf is drilled into us. You don't lie. You don't spread lies. You put fire to lies. That's what I was taught. To not let a lie live in the shadow but to bring it to light and show it for the lie that it is and that's why I'm annoyed by your ignorance and your lies.

                The honest truth is that if you look at the root causes of the issues we are currently dealing with you will see that there have been two competing agendas - Arab Nationalism and Zionism. Both with good and bad points amongst them. But, sadly, instead of trying to find a way of collaborating and working together they have been in opposition with one another since around 1911. Have the Israelis been perfect? No. Have us Arabs been perfect? No. But I disagree with some of the bold statements you are making. Neither my family in Gaza nor my family in Rahat believe they are subjects of a genocide or ethnic cleansing today. Do I have family members who have been killed in this conflict? Yes. And friends of family as well. But I also have new cousins born each year. I have family members who are quite prosperous. I have family who can afford to send their kids to college overseas and pay over 100K in just tuition alone a year. Was there ethnic cleansing in the past? Of course. On both sides. We Arabs expelled Jews from their lands and Jews expelled Arabs from our lands. But that was decades ago. Does that define Arab nations today or Israel today? No. That's just part of our shared history that we have to reckon with and deal with. Should there be some form of reparations for people affected? Sure, likely on both sides that would be wonderful to hopefully end the hostility.

                You make claims like "genocide", "ethnic cleansing" and "open air prison" without offering a definition of what you are referring to. What genocide or ethnic cleansing is taking place today? There isn't any. As someone who really values reality and the truth I take offense to you claiming there is. I am tired of Westerners like you watching a Youtube video and thinking you know something. It's maddening. It's no different than having someone listen to a Ben Shapiro podcast or a Candace Owens video and think they know something. And yes, you can start showering me in data. And I can shower you back in data. Data is a single point of light and doesn't describe the entirety of a situation.

                So look believe what you want to believe - whether that's about me or about the situation overseas. But I'm going to call you out on being an ignorant person about it. Just like you're ignorant with regards to this article and Hamas. Israel helped with the Mujama al-Islamiya charity by recognizing it and allowing it to operate. The charity offered social services to people and slowly militarized. Hamas was founded during the First Intifada. By then, years earlier, Sheikh Yassin had already been arrested and then released as part of the Jibril Agreement. No one in Israel foresaw how the mosques and the religious movements in Gaza would become a huge part of Hamas' institutional terrorism activities. Just like no one when they made seatbelts a legal requirements in cars would have known that accidents would increase because people would start driving less carefully thinking they were safer with the belt. It's called unforeseen circumstances. And this article, that you've put as a point of reference to your argument, forgets that humans only exist with past knowledge and don't have the ability to see into the future. Is Israel to blame for Hamas because it allowed a charity to operate in Gaza and that charity secretly formed into Hamas? No. That's no different than saying that the guy who sold the house to someone who killed his family is responsible for that person killing their family. These actions have nothing to do with one another and you, and the writer of this WSJ article, are stretching the truth and making a very poor argument. Maybe stupid people will be moved by a bad argument. It's clear that the writer was able to move you with one. But that should tell you more about your approach to logic as it's told me plenty. You're ignorant and easily fall for bad logic.

                Israel did not help form Hamas. That's the reality. But people like you just hate Jews so much. You're the same sort of people who have to create some false reality where Hitler was a self-hating Jew instead of a Christian Westerner. You cannot look in the mirror and accept reality or the sins of your past. You want to shove all the blame elsewhere. And it's sad. And it's easy to see through.

                I really wish you understood a morsel of what you think you know. I genuinely do. I am saddened by the reality that you have to believe in nonsense and then in some conspiracy theory surrounding me to be able to feel good about yourself. But in the last few years I have grown to accept that I cannot change idiots from thinking stupid things. The amount of people who are so wilfully blind to reality and live in fear of insane prospects like 5G or vaccines or who blame the world on "boogeymen" like George Soros is something I can't understand or explain about our species. So I won't bother to try to change your mind. I'll just call you out for being an ignorant idiot as that's all I have the power to do.

                But if you ever want to grab a coffee I'd be happy to buy you one. And you can look at me. You can hear me speak in Arabic and Turkish and French. I'll hand over my phone to you and you can scroll through my Facebook and see all my relatives abroad. And I hope then that you'll apologize for trying to defame me in a public forum like you have just done and continually deprive me of my identity. And you'll probably just claim ignorance. But I'm telling you quite frankly that's not the only thing you're ignorant of. You're ignorant of a lot. Be aware of that.

                • -1 vote

                  @rightguy:

                  Do I have family members who have been killed in this conflict? Yes. And friends of family as well. But I also have new cousins born each year.

                  LOL holy (profanity), this borders on insane.

                  I knew genocide, ethnic cleansing and torture could affect people but you're really out there. I hope Israel owns up to its crimes against the Palestinian people and you can begin to get the therapy you need my Hasbara friend.

                  • +1 vote

                    @ausmechkeyboards: Are you really this stupid???? I have family members who were killed on both sides of the conflict. Killed by both Israelis and Palestinians due to the conflict.

                    Maybe you're really dumb and don't realise this but Bedouins serve in the IDF by choice. They fight, get wounded and die for the State of Israel. I also have family members that have been killed in Palestinian terrorist attacks. When you drive a bus off a cliff or put a bomb/fire a rocket into a public space you do so indiscriminately.

                    My forehead hurts from slapping it from your ignorance and stupidity. You so don't get the situation, the people or the circumstances. You are a joke.

                    Also, I don't speak Hebrew, but I'm pretty sure you're misusing the term "hasbara." So I have no clue what's you're trying to say. But that's a moot point really.

                    I accept reasonable criticism of Israel because that's normal. I'm not some massive fan of Israel or its policies. What I am a fan of is truth, rational thought and reality. The reality is that genocide, ethnic cleansing and torture does not exist in any functional state outside of your imagination. I can't ask you to get help, because you quite clearly have no interest in remaining anything but ignorant. But can you just stop and leave me the hell alone?

                    •  

                      @rightguy: Like 7% of eligible Bedouins sign up according to government numbers, the IDF says it's actually closer to 2%.

                      That's 1 in 50.

                      You're not even in the minority opinion - you're in the fringes, and using deaths of family (if they even exist) who wouldn't even support what you're saying is hilarious.

                      Do I have family members who have been killed in this conflict? Yes. And friends of family as well. But I also have new cousins born each year.

                      I'll continue to quote this because it's a reflection of your Hasbara nonsense. You couldn't really care any less, but that's what happens when you don't see the other side as human.

                      • -3 votes

                        @ausmechkeyboards: In Israel last month, videos on the social media platform TikTok encouraged users to film themselves assaulting Orthodox Jews

                        •  

                          @gto21: If you ever go to Israel you’ll see the Orthodox Jews assaulting everyone else, including non-Orthodox Jews.

                          Avi the literal IDF agent wouldn’t tell you this, and you can’t see Israel from your Melbourne basement, so I’m not sure where you’re going with this.

                          • -3 votes

                            @ausmechkeyboards: Last month, Israeli officials arrested two Arab teenagers who slapped two ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jews on a train in East Jerusalem and uploaded video of the incident to TikTok.

                      •  

                        @ausmechkeyboards: To be clear IDF doesn't release those numbers. And plenty of Bedouins do serve in IDF. I have in my family 8 family members that have died in IDF in encounters with Arabs. Their families massively support Israel and the IDF to this day.

                        Again you mistook me saying "Do I have family members who have been killed in this conflict" as "I have Palestinian family who have been killed by Israelis in this conflict" - I have family that has been killed on both side. Please don't blame me for your intellectual bias.

                        I see all sides as human. I literally have family on all sides. It's a bad conflict. But calling it genocide or ethnic cleansing is just a lie. The population growth inside and outside Israel is amazing in my family's communities. The amount of kids is staggering. I could not tell you how many cousins I have but its in the hundreds. That doesn't exist when there is a supposed genocide or ethnic cleansing. And if you understood the situation you would understand that for us Palestinians or Arabs today in this region the growth of kids is a massive part of what we see day to day. It's honestly staggering. But you don't get that because, again, you're living in Australia and you've never probably stepped foot into the tent or home of Bedouin let alone one in Israel or into a home in Palestine. You exist in this privileged world where you get to look into the situation from the other side of a sheet of glass as though we and everyone involved is an animal at a zoo. And then you have the audacity to say I'm the one with the lack of humanity about this subject when you have zero footing to stand on.

                        You clearly don't care about the human side of things because you don't appreciate the reality of the situation. If you'd like reach out to me. I'll put you in touch with family in Gaza and family in Israel who will argue against the very stupid things you're saying. Heck if you're in Brisbane let's grab a coffee so I can facetime with family who will set you straight.

                        Again, you're just a privileged white guy who has watched some stupid documentaries or read a few articles and thinks he has some knowledge that he doesn't - typical Westerner. It's sad and rotten.

  • +11 votes

    I've run out of my daily comment downvote quota :( And it hasn't even hit 10am.
    Just messing about. Love you all.