Are Teachers 'really' Underpaid

Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 15:44
Last edited 01/06/2022 - 21:04

I hear this a lot i got 3 friends that are teachers and the biggest complaint they have is they have to 'do extra' work planning and they feel they dont get paid 'enough' - from what ive seen most 'well' paid jobs people are expected to do some unpaid over times ie Lawyers, Accountants etc

Until i recently looked into the remuneration i always felt they 'deserved' more money but i personally think they are 'fairly' compensated i have linked the Victorian teacher salary PDF 'class' room teachers earn $72k starting to $108k (>10 year experience) - Now teachers who are specialists/leads can earn just under 120k.

https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teac…

108k would put you in around the 90th percentile of earners which is the top 10%
https://povertyandinequality.acoss.org.au/income-calculator/

now my friends all report they do 'some' work during school holidays but overall there working year is 40 weeks a year plus a few extra hours for planning and marking. When you take in all the holidays into account, ill add this 'wage chart' is as of the end of 2020 so once the new EBA comes in they would probably get another couple % point bump on that.

I personally dont think that 'warrants' the under-paid mantra they push but i might be out of touch i feel like they're actually on pretty good money….

OZ-Bargain is a pretty 'progressive' place so i'd be interested to see what others think on here

Other thing to factor in is this is Victorian and there would be differences between each state

Poll Options

  • 467
    Teacher are Under paid
  • 684
    Teachers are Fairly paid
  • 122
    Teachers are Over Paid
Education & Work

Comments

    • [Deactivated] on 01/06/2022 - 15:54
      +12

      and i'm so sickk of teachersssssssss!!!

      • [Deactivated] on 01/06/2022 - 17:37
        +14

        guys its neyo- so sick reference. I truly believe role of teachers is very important in our society!

    • jjjaar on 01/06/2022 - 16:50
      +48

      If you actually believe this you have serious delusions.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 01/06/2022 - 20:50
        -8

        If you don't understand hyperbole you didn't learn enough in school.

        • belongsinforums on 01/06/2022 - 23:01
          +2

          if you don't then you don't know forever anything at all

    • freefall101 on 01/06/2022 - 17:38
      +33

      https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/exhausted-teache…

      Teachers work an average of 15 hours of unpaid overtime a week.

      This might come as a shock, but teachers don't just rock up in the morning, teach the kids with stuff they pulled out of their arseholes then go home again.

      • dizzle on 01/06/2022 - 18:02
        +24

        but teachers don't just rock up in the morning, teach the kids with stuff they pulled out of their arseholes then go home again.

        Pretty sure some of my teachers did.

        Then there were others that were using lesson plans that were 20 years old. So old the plans they were teaching off had yellowed with age.

        • syousef on 03/06/2022 - 10:18
          +1

          IN NSW teachers now have to do continual re-certification every 3 years for full time teachers and 5 years for part time. This includes proving they've been practicing in all areas of teaching including lesson planning. Moreover they have to do computer based courses in child safety, first aid etc. If any of those lapse they literally can't teach until they complete them again. This is all done unpaid by the way.

          This isn't 1980 anymore.

        • iNeed2Pee on 01/06/2022 - 23:51
          +6

          Can you please stop commenting. You have absolutely no idea unless you have been in a teachers life for a week.

            • iminabrons on 02/06/2022 - 12:51

              @neyo: "they ain't special buddy"
              Should they be regarded as special? If not. Why not?

        • Nereosis on 02/06/2022 - 15:06
          +4

          Are you a teacher? Cause you actually have no idea.

          The education departments do not give lesson plans nor do they give curated plans for classes that contain students of different ability.

          If you had a straight year 6 class with all students at grade level then yeah you could take lesson plans straight from a book/resources. But that ain't the real world chief.
          More likely: your year 6 class will have half at grade level, a few above, a third below, and a few much much below. Meaning: you need to make plans for each group (and worse case each individual student) or else you will leave many students behind and they won't learn a thing.

          Also, when do you think lesson plans, reports, marking, parent/teacher interviews, training, etc. etc. get done?

          Clearly, you have no idea and take "lots of holidays" as meaning "not much work".

          Tell me, 'neyo' why aren't you a teacher if it's so easy?

          Get rekt.

          • Bren20 on 02/06/2022 - 19:06
            +1

            @Nereosis: saw rekt and nearly downvoted you out of habit…

            • ctg on 02/06/2022 - 23:56

              @Bren20: Because it's a statement from a teenager brain.

              • Nereosis on 03/06/2022 - 14:13
                +1

                @ctg: Such "I don't agree therefore child" energy

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 03/06/2022 - 15:26
          +1

          As a statistician, a sample size of 10K makes for extremely generalisable findings.

          Actually more than 1000 is already more than enough but 10K vs the population of teachers in Australia (which is about 300K) is way representative.

          If you dont understand why then you may need to go back to school

      • LSGH on 02/06/2022 - 09:26
        +7

        this is true, I have 2 friends who are teachers, they are in the school at 7.50am and leave at 4.00pm everyday, and they bring work home…they have to eat their desks… no lunches out in the city restaurants or coffee breaks at the nearby cafe with co-workers which most of us regular employees get.

        • madseason on 02/06/2022 - 11:43
          +5

          They have to eat their desks? I didn't realise things were getting that dire.

          • Cyphar on 02/06/2022 - 20:39
            +5

            @madseason: Times are tough. Vegemite on particle wood is a solid favourite of mine.

          • LSGH on 03/06/2022 - 08:37

            @madseason: Oops it wouldn’t let me edit my comment once it received some pluses (meant to say eat at their desks)

      • entropysbane on 04/06/2022 - 09:27
        +2

        So like most professional white collar workers then?

      • supersabroso on 04/06/2022 - 15:38

        I think that for the work they do, they are fairly paid. Yes, they probably have to work 9-10hrs a day on average in order to get all their stuff done. However, they have all the school holidays off, this is super rare and reduces their average to about 7hrs/day if you spread it over the holidays.

        I don't know many six figure jobs that don't require you to work more than your 8hrs a day and that's with only 4 weeks of annual leave/year, not the generous 2 weeks of long service every year + 11 weeks of school holidays that teachers get off every year!

    • 87percent on 01/06/2022 - 17:39
      +9

      You mean they’re in a classroom for 6 hours. But then they’re grading papers, preparing class work, etc etc after hours!

        • thrillhouse on 02/06/2022 - 08:42
          +8

          You're absolutely wrong.

        • mooney on 02/06/2022 - 10:34
          +6

          Do you genuine believe teachers work 6 hour days? Or just trolling?

            • mooney on 02/06/2022 - 11:29
              +5

              @neyo: Ok, yes trolling.

              Many people work additional discretionary hours to ensure they go over and above. I personally am thankful a lot of teachers do that to help kids get the best possible education. Sounds like you are someone who tries to coast along doing minimum possible, good luck to you on that, each to their own… but I don't want people like you anywhere near teaching.

            • DeToxin on 03/06/2022 - 12:45

              @neyo: Wow you actually have no idea do you? Maybe you should study to become a teacher and show everyone how it's done?

        • Nereosis on 02/06/2022 - 15:07
          +1

          Just because you work a 6 hour day and think it's hard doesn't mean that's what everyone else does.

          Shouldn't be surprised someone with a fedora in their profile pic is an absolute idiot.

        • DeToxin on 03/06/2022 - 12:43

          You must love downvotes.

  • oscargamer on 01/06/2022 - 15:51
    +57

    Teachers should be paid more than lawyers. But lawyers should be paid much less than they are.

    • Almost Banned on 01/06/2022 - 16:04
      +63

      Why?
      Most lawyers work much longer hours, over many more days, and have graduate degrees with very high entry scores compared to teachers.
      You can choose your lawyer - some charge high rates, some much lower.
      Lawyers have very high rates of stress and burn-out.
      As it happens, graduate lawyers in all but the large firms are probably making no more than, and possibly less than, teachers.

      • oscargamer on 01/06/2022 - 16:08
        +23

        I guess it's more of a moral equation / statement / measurement.

        Teachers generally do what they do for the betterment of the kids.

        Lawyers generally do what they do for the betterment of their pay cheque…..

        Burn out in teachers is also very high. Stress….also very high.

        IMO

        • Almost Banned on 01/06/2022 - 16:10
          +22

          I think you will find that there are self-motivated individuals in both workforces, but for most employed solicitors the risk of failure and seeing the consequences of that are far more real and immediate than for any teacher.

        • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 16:12
          +22

          Well if you wanna make these ‘feelings’ based arguments
          Lawyers strive to get you justice when the whole system fails to deliver.

          Or you can be honest about it and just admit that most people do what they do to earn a paycheque.
          These pretentious virtue non sense, only misleads arguments.

          • oscargamer on 01/06/2022 - 16:15
            -3

            @Gervais fanboy: "Lawyers strive to get you justice when the whole system fails to deliver."

            LOL
            ROFL
            etc…
            etc…

            • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 16:27
              +20

              @oscargamer: Are you suggesting that all lawyers are bad ?
              Just like teachers, there are good lawyers and then there are bad ones.
              I am not impressed by their whole industry, Ofcos not. A good number of them are very rotten people.

              My point was that if you can create such a nice sounding mission statement about the teachers, trying to make them sound so kind and noble. We can make very similar points about lawyers.

              • oscargamer on 01/06/2022 - 17:13
                -2

                @Gervais fanboy: I feel sorry for you if you genuinely feel that a good number of teachers are very rotten.

                • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 18:02
                  +8

                  @oscargamer: lol no
                  I was calling some lawyers to be rotten and not the teachers. I mean there are those woke Commie lib teachers that you see on the internet but I have never come across one in actual existence.

            • Hangryuman on 02/06/2022 - 13:29
              -2

              @oscargamer: ROTFLMFAO

          • iminabrons on 02/06/2022 - 12:57
            +1

            @Gervais fanboy: "Lawyers strive to get you justice "
            I think that is almost a by-the-by or afterthought for the vast majority of lawyers. There are those that are clearly about justice for the helpless and weak but they are clearly a small minority.

            • Gervais fanboy on 02/06/2022 - 13:17
              +6

              @iminabrons: Trust me dude, that wasn’t easy for me either. I never thought I’d be here making a case for the lawyers. I am fully aware of the dogma that most of them are brought up in and ironically how unsympathetically unhelpful they are towards the course of justice.

              That Oscar fella made a claptrap statement about teachers and the idealistic impacts that they ‘make’ in our society, using that drivel to help make a case for teachers over lawyers.
              To counteract that virtuous BS, I wrote a similarly ‘nice’ sounding utopian impact that lawyers have on our society.
              Only difference between me and him. I was Atleast self aware and honest about what I was saying.
              As I made the observation above, that most people do what they do to earn a big cheque. I strongly resent this grandstanding gestures/motives that are are put next to people’s professions.

            • Hangryuman on 02/06/2022 - 13:32
              +1

              @iminabrons: when I studied first year Law at uni, I forget the % but figured maybe 90% of my fellow students would happily tread on people's heads to get to a pile of money

              and maybe 10% were bleeding heart martyrs who wanted to work pro bono in legal aid centres to help housing comm centrelink welfare recipients with some of their everyday struggles

        • AEKaBeer on 02/06/2022 - 10:01
          +7

          Having worked at a medium sized school as an IT tech for 3 years, I strongly disagree with your second point. I was disappointed on a daily basis as to how disinterested in improving anything for the kids most of the teachers were. Of 30+ teachers I can say that 2 gave a damn, the rest seemed to resent having to teach.

          As for pay, they aren't overpaid, the kids can be rough. But underpaid? hell no. Non teaching staff regardless of experience were running approx 40% less than teachers and the unions do zero for them.

      • Nereosis on 02/06/2022 - 15:09
        +4

        "Lawyers have very high rates of stress and burn-out" - dude, do you know anything about the teaching profession at all? It suffers from absolutely massive burnout and have you even listened at all to the "MASSIVE TEACHER SHORTAGE" that is occurring? Any person with half a brain should be able to extrapolate that to meaning there is problems with that profession.

        Clearly, it's not as 'easy' as people make out.

        • ripesashimi on 03/06/2022 - 02:20
          +2

          Try comparing that with the scenario where an innocent person may get locked up in prison for years if you fail, and the effect that has on their family.
          Or family members who are visa holders are forced to be separated from their loved ones because government does not believe their relationship claim.

          Sure it's not easy for teachers but whatever they have do not even come close to that of lawyers. They only need to fail 1 case and someone or some family may lose everything that they have. Enforced separation is the modern day's greatest punishment.

          • Gervais fanboy on 03/06/2022 - 03:18

            @ripesashimi: As much as I agree with you mate

            From a sample size of 6 lawyers that I am very good friends with/close family, seasoned lawyers do have a career that includes mistakes and knowingly being on the wrong side of justice.
            I am not saying they are bad people but they do have a way of rationalising their professions as a mere ‘job’ rather than some white knight idealistic lifestyle where they fight for the little man against injustice and tyranny. A very bleak minority grows old with that very honourable mindset.

        • Gervais fanboy on 03/06/2022 - 03:12
          +4

          lol wait a second

          I am not choosing sides at all but you are quite wrong with your diagnosis of the situation.
          Comparing teachers to lawyers, yes there is a shortage in their profession. I agree with you on that.

          But what your bias deters you from realising is that this shortage isn’t largely due to the stress that comes with it. Trust me, there’s a lot tougher professions than being a a teacher. Try being a trucker that drives 16-18 hours a day/6 days a week on the most impossible terrains. Or being a tradie that’s keeping this impossible infrastructure around us, operating and alive 24/7.
          Being a teacher is mostly only mentally stressful, imagine doing something that isn both mentally as well as physically stressful.
          Btw lawyers work unbelievable hours, teachers doesn’t even come close to them when it comes to managing workload.

          Now to your point, there isn’t a big queue of people lining up to become a teacher is due to the lack of financial incentive that being a teacher brings. A person would rather do something that’ll allow them to earn a bigger cheque than what your average teacher makes.
          Now before you cry wolf again, teachers get paid less than a lawyer is because it’s much easier to become a teacher than it is to become a lawyer. I am sorry if that sounds hurtful to anyone but thats the truth.

        • digitalbath on 03/06/2022 - 07:06

          Every industry has “massive burnout” these days. And it’s not because of workload stress. It’s because of the stress that comes with not being able to handle the day to day “normal” stressors that work and life dish out. People have no resilience these days.
          I’m a psych nurse, I should be paid more for having to deal with all you lot who are “stressed out”.

          • Nereosis on 05/06/2022 - 23:47
            +1

            @digitalbath: Way to diminish the suffering of others because you don't believe it's justified.

            Must be a pretty shitty nurse if you can't empathise.

      • Yotta00 on 05/06/2022 - 19:26

        You can choose your lawyer - some charge high rates, some much lower.

        It would be good if a excellent teacher can charge high lawyer rates. Schools and the Government has the monopoly over a teacher's salary.

        • filmer on 06/06/2022 - 09:18

          My view is the top 5-10% who might make bank in other professions are probably underpaid. The majority are fairly paid. A minority are overpaid.

        • wombat81 on 06/06/2022 - 10:07

          An excellent teacher can apply to be a highly accomplished or lead teacher which has a significantly higher salary attached to it, but that's only a fairly new addition to the pay structure. The application also costs a significant amount and takes significant work to complete, though.

    • htc on 01/06/2022 - 20:36
      +1

      Why is the atar for studying law is much higher than a teaching degree?

      • Scrooge McDuck on 01/06/2022 - 20:52
        +20

        Supply and demand.

        • rlf on 02/06/2022 - 18:16
          -3

          This isn't really true at all. There are not that many people who would like to do law or become a doctor that don't have the ATAR to do it.

        • entropysbane on 04/06/2022 - 09:28
          +2

          Law is rapidly becoming a generalist degree that could give access to many different kinds of corporate jobs and retail jobs. It is the modern BA.

        • wombat81 on 06/06/2022 - 10:10
          +1

          ATARs are all based on supply and demand. They have no correlation to the academic level required to be successful in a degree. Many unis currently set the ATAR score to get into teaching degrees at a level that's so bad the student could fail most of their year 12 subjects and still make the ATAR. Just another indicator of the shortage.

      • George Washington on 01/06/2022 - 21:35
        -1

        prestige and a chance to live in the northern/eastern beaches

    • SF3 on 01/06/2022 - 21:04
      -2

      Problem is they same KPI, that is how much can they earn for their employer.

      We see this in private sector, the operations people ( eg those with the thankless job ) are seen as a expense and doesn’t generate revenue, but your sales department - well we know what they can be like.

      Becoming a tradie, train driver, garbage truck person is likely to earn a lot more money…

      • seraphim2017 on 02/06/2022 - 10:20
        +8

        The challenge is in teaching technique, not in subject matter.

        You pay a teacher for their teaching skills, not jsut the 'perceived' complexity of subject matter. Teaching essentially a group of baby primates language skills sufficient for them to function and learn further is a skill, just like teaching an adult quantum theory when the groundwork has already been done (hopefully by a good teacher).

        You pay more, you get better teachers, just like any industry. Make it attractive to "high ATAR" students and lift the level.

        However, after marking 'high ATAR" cohorts, I can tell you ATAR bears no resemblence to aptitude in any way I can see to intelligence or learning as an adult!

      • Nereosis on 02/06/2022 - 15:12
        +4

        Are you for real? Minimum wage? You think because you teach someone that isn't as smart as someone in year 10 that it's "easier"?
        Just because YOU don't know something does not mean it's not complex or difficult.

        Please, take on a year of teaching a year 1 class and show through reporting, grading, statistics, and analysis how they have improved. What, you didn't know teachers had to prove that children actually learned what they were supposed to? Damn, maybe you should go back to school.

      • skullster704 on 02/06/2022 - 07:39
        +9

        Speaking as a mature (well older anyway) nursing student, the amount of young people that flunked the first year (some even the first semester) and said “I’ll go do teaching” genuinely concerns me

        • grr1701 on 02/06/2022 - 10:16
          +1

          However, many would either not complete their Education degree, either, or find out that it’s not the easy job they IMAGINED it to be. And therefore leave the profession, also. SAYING they’ll do something and actually DOING something are two different things. I’ve “failed” quite a few practice teachers in my 37 years as a teacher because they just didn’t have the drive, knowledge and skills to do the job well (or even satisfactorily).

        • Charmoffensive on 02/06/2022 - 10:23

          Same with nursing, tbh.

      • grr1701 on 02/06/2022 - 10:09
        +3

        neyo SO ignorant.

      • Cunning Linguist on 02/06/2022 - 18:45
        +4

        I know more people that started a teaching degree and switch to something else, usually after they got to their prac and then realised no effin way they want to deal with bratty students for the pay

      • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 20:34

        I know plenty of people who change careers but it’s only when it comes to teaching that they’re considered “failures”. And we wonder why we can’t convince high achievers to become teachers.

      • sandman87 on 14/06/2022 - 11:50

        You really sound like someone who hated school and had shit teachers and now have an axe to grind. You sound petty. Get over your past and move on.

    • Masterpupil on 02/06/2022 - 09:57
      +17

      I agree. Teachers are contributing more to society than lawyers. Source: I am a lawyer.

    • redvaldez on 02/06/2022 - 12:26

      How much do you think lawyers make? Genuine question.

    • caitsith01 on 02/06/2022 - 18:41
      +3

      Lawyers are as close to a pure market pay situation as you can get. Lawyers get paid a lot because law is hard and not that many people are good at it. It is not a graduate supply issue because the vast majority of law graduates don't go on to practice, even though they could.

      Whereas teachers' pay is to a large extent set by government (although not in private schools).

      So you are comparing apples and oranges. How should lawyers' pay be reduced, in your view? Anyone who wants to (and has good enough academics) can do a law degree, get their practising certificate and start charging less if they want to.

    • TonyRedgrave on 03/06/2022 - 15:54
      +8

      A teaching degree anywhere is an absolute cakewalk compared to a law degree from a halfway reputable university. Being a lawyer has a wholly different set of challenges, but broadly attracts people who are far more intelligent than your average teacher.

      Teachers are very good at explaining concepts simply, lawyers aren't (proof: have law degree- was taught by legal geniuses who sucked at explaining things).

      Should teachers be paid more? Not unless the requisite average quality of ability increases. I have close relatives and good friends in teaching. Some of them are really smart, very passionate, have secondary degrees related to their main subjects and could make more elsewhere but choose to teach. Others are doing it for an easy paycheque. Some of their colleagues are downright stupid, and should be kept well away from kids of an impressionable age who see them as a source of truth.

      Teachers get a boatload of leave compared to every other FT profession. It's easier to spend time with your family as a teacher. Do they work extra hours? Yes. Who doesn't? It's in most FT contracts that you work a reasonable OT amount, and if you're drawing the comparison to lawyers it's evident you must not know many because they are grossly overworked (there are a lot of cases in the last few years pertaining to this issue in junior lawyers and grads- people sleeping under desks and whatnot).

      If you want to amend teacher salaries, make it based on a secondary qualification and the subjects taught. English teacher with a literature degree as well? You can make a bit more than your colleague without one. STEM teachers at a senior school level should consequently make more than their humanities counterparts, and also require a STEM qualification with a decent GPA.

      Presently, it's piss easy to become a teacher and therein lies the crux of the issue. Raise the bar for entry, raise the salary to match, watch Australian students reap the benefits.

      • Maz78 on 04/06/2022 - 09:48
        -1

        "Being a lawyer has a wholly different set of challenges, but broadly attracts people who are far more intelligent than your average teacher."

        LOL. I've worked in a law firm for 20 years. Do not ever link intelligence to job title…

      • nigel deborah on 04/06/2022 - 09:50

        But are all of those things, the harder degree, better marks required for entry, higher average skills etc all just a product of the better pay?

        PAY more, get more people who want to do it, which increases academic entry requirements. Now your university classes are full of brighter students so they can be taught at a higher level and more quickly. Now you've got better educated graduates and a 'smarter' work force.

        Who's to say that, after swapping the pay of lawyers and teachers, everything eventually reverses?

        It would never happen as (agree or disagree) society places more value on legal work than teaching. But you get my point.

      • Corners on 04/06/2022 - 13:59
        +1

        While I don't disagree that a single universal award wage for teachers based on experience rather than expertise for teachers disincentivises excellence, I would suggest disagree on a couple of points you've raised. Unless your have recently experience in the profession its unlikely you are aware of the rapid work intensification. Good teachers now work significantly longer hours than in previous decades due to increased administration, and I would hazard - at least based on census patterns and the Australian Teacher workforce data - that this is chasing down many of the common 'long hours' professions.

        Additionally, I don't think the crux of the issue is the low entry bar. The lowering of entry requirements occurred as a response to teacher shortages in the early 2000s. Teaching TER's/UAIs dropped dramatically as the number of funded places increased to meet a perceived teacher shortage. You won't change things by raising the bar for entry if young people aren't choosing the profession. Instead - I agree - raise and diversify the salaries, but also make it a worthwhile job. At the moment, there is a significant gap between the perceptions and reality and this thread is a case in point.

        It's an "easy degree" yet many teachers have a 4-5 year underdgrad course, and most seasoned teachers will have multiple qualifications as well as their professional accreditations.

        It's "short hours" yet most teachers I know start at 8am, don't leave before 4pm and take hours and hours of work home each day.

        It is "easier to spend time with your family" except its almost impossible to get any flexibility with your working hours given the fixed nature of school hours.

        It is "12 weeks holidays" except its 11, and they include almost all the public holidays, and most teachers will be WFH for 4-6 of them, and try going on holidays during school holidays.

        Many of the things that once made teaching desirable (flexibility, family friendly, etc) no longer exist in the profession… except for the laziest of teachers. And they are not the ones that I want in our classrooms. We've know what has to be done and there are [event suggested ways to do it] (https://theconversation.com/teachers-dont-have-enough-time-t…) but nobody seems to be listening.

    • grrrr on 04/06/2022 - 00:41

      Trying2SaveABuck already has a hat trick… however your comment deserves a new pole 'are lawyers 'really' over paid' … and while they are at it, lets add an 'are engineers 'really' paid? poll.

    • Freestyle on 05/06/2022 - 12:09

      the old arguments of people who put in less effort should get paid more than people who has to pass one of the hardest examinations ever, why?

  • BewareOfThe Dog on 01/06/2022 - 15:56
    +39

    Depends on the teacher. My girlfriend puts in a lot of work after hours etc, whereas some of her colleagues are out the door as soon as the bell rings, not to mention when it comes to school reports, one teacher copied her reports last year, and again this year has regurgitated the same reports.

    • Kaz0551 on 01/06/2022 - 16:00
      +9

      Considering an average workday of 8am - 5pm, when you say "puts in a lot of work after hours" is this consistently after 5pm or after 3pm?

      [not taking a stab, curious]

      • jjjaar on 01/06/2022 - 16:53
        +32

        It really depends on the demands of the schools. Many have meetings most days, so teachers may not leave until 430/5 anyway.

        I know some teachers that are at school from 8-5 daily, then go home and work again from like 8-10pm.

        Then there’s also primary school teachers that can spend 2-3 days in January setting up their classroom for their kids.

        But across the school year, most teachers don’t have enough time to prepare for their classes, which is why they often put in hours in the evening.

        • thrillhouse on 02/06/2022 - 08:45
          +6

          This is very accurate. I assume you know a teacher?
          I'm not a teacher, but my wife is. This reflects her professional life to a tee.

          • PeterSnoot on 02/06/2022 - 09:17

            @thrillhouse: I'm in that same position and agree with @thrillhouse

          • jjjaar on 02/06/2022 - 09:18
            +5

            @thrillhouse: I’m not a teacher but I know about 10 teachers very well, with a decent mix of primary/high/state/private.

            I’ve seen all the combinations and it sounds like it really comes down to the school, the leadership (the same school under one principal can be completely different under another) and the other staff in their team.

            I’ve seen the same person thrive and be extremely efficient in one environment, then a new leader comes in or a new team and they are suddenly working 4 extra hours a day.

            It’s just such an inconsistent environment, I would never want to be a teacher.

      • ESEMCE on 01/06/2022 - 17:01
        +44

        My old man was a Science teacher and I swore off teaching as a result of the hours he put in and the stress he brought home…

        Weekdays, he was up at 5:30, worked at home 6 - 7:30am then at school all day returning home at 5:30 - 6
        Ate dinner, then worked 7:30 - 10PM
        Got up at 7 on weekends, worked at least half the day Saturday and Sunday.

        The amount of Marking was absolutely crushing! Piles and piles of exercise books!
        And then on top of that lesson planning, and test/exam creation.

        • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 17:03
          +5

          Wow, he sounds like one hell of a teacher.

          But surely, he’s part of a small minority of highly driven individuals?
          Or were most of his colleagues like that. Do you known?

          • ESEMCE on 02/06/2022 - 10:17
            +11

            @Gervais fanboy: Yeah, he worked his arse off and was obviously a very good teacher as he always had adults (who were former students) stop him in the street to thank him for changing their lives.
            I now have kids at school and one of their teachers seems to be always on the job like my dad was, so there's still people out there working hard.

            But that's the same in any workplace… Some people coast through life, others work hard. It's not a teacher trait.
            On the whole, the shit teachers don't progress up the pay grades, just like in any other profession.

            But in other professions, if you're putting in 60+ hour weeks, you're generally going to be paid $150k+, not $120k at best.
            You also generally don't have (profanity) telling you how overpaid you are both in person and in forums.
            Whenever I hear this, I just reply "if it's so good, go become a teacher then…", and they shut up about it or continue digging a hole for themselves by saying they couldn't stand dealing with shitty kids all day.

            • johndoh89 on 02/06/2022 - 22:02

              @ESEMCE: Pay progression is almost purely linked to time in service now. There is only one tier that you can get above the time based ones (in NSW) by paying a fee and putting together a portfolio and going through observations from an external party.

              Pretty much anyone capable of passing it is likely putting in too many hours to adequately prepare the portfolio.

              Completely agree with the statement at the end. "If it's so easy, overpaid with too many holidays, why aren't you teaching?" almost always ends with variations of "You couldn't pay me enough".

              Somehow this never translates to any enlightenment on the subject.

      • geosta on 01/06/2022 - 21:27
        +36

        My wife is a full-time primary teacher. She records most of her extra hours because of conversations like this.

        So far this year she's averaged 54 hours per week, excluding two weeks vacation, one at New Years and one at Easter. The other weeks of the school holidays she's organising resources, planning lessons, writing Individual Education Plans (she has 6 students in her class on IEPs this year) and organising the costumes for the school performance which she was volunteered to run this year.

        That's on top of organsing the school, zone and regional cross country competitions, the school ANZAC Day service, and being the teacher representative on the Student Representative Council.

        Then there's just the everyday dealing with parents - I don't think there has been a night this school year (including weekends) where she hasn't received at least one message from a parent regarding their child. It's usually two or three parents per night.

        Then there are the formal parent/teacher conferences (37 last term - 28 kids in the class, 9 of them with divorced and/or separated parents). Plus she would have at least one or two meetings per week with a parent.

        And now we're into reports season. So for the past 4 weeks, pretty much every day from when she gets home from school at about 5pm until about midnight she's sorting and marking assessments, uploading data into analytics systems, drafting report comments, liaising with specialist teachers to get their comments for her students, proof reading her peers reports etc etc, all while having to do all the above as well. Which is why for the past 3 weekends she has worked 12-16 hours each day as well.

        And no doubt I've forgotten something.

        Nobody is a teacher for more then 3 years if they don't love the kids because they damn sure don't do it for the money or the time off. There's a reason why the attrition rate of teacher graduates is something like 33% after 6 years.

        • IM-Cheap on 02/06/2022 - 07:52
          +4

          I don't think parents should be able to contact teachers directly outside of school hours.

          When I was in primary school - a private school - they held parent teacher meetings once a year (mid-year) and my parents normally declined the invite too.

          In public high school they didn't schedule a parent teacher night unless the parent made the effort to request one through the front office. All the teachers used the same materials and grading schemes too for each subject (with alternating years of material for some subjects). Not sure why they need to make so many lesson plans now.

          Teachers should have the same restriction on working hours as a standard job and the school system has alot of inefficiencies that standardization could help reduce so people can work smarter not harder.

        • jetblack on 02/06/2022 - 08:21
          +2

          Just as an aside - why is she doing parent/teacher meetings twice when there are separated parents?

          Can't those parents just grow up and both attend a single meeting for their child? Why is she putting up with that bs?

          • DashCam AKA Rolts on 02/06/2022 - 09:52
            +4

            @jetblack: You often need separate interviews for parents who have restraining orders in place against each other, or for those whose separation has involved so much animosity they cannot be civil to each other when in close proximity.
            The interview can deteriorate into arguments and threats of assualt if held with both parents in these circumstances.

          • Punkmak on 03/06/2022 - 09:53

            @jetblack: Sometimes it can boil down to such things as domestic violence, restraining orders etc. I know the last thing domestic violence survivors would love to be told is to "grow up" and face their abuser once again…

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