Are Teachers 'really' Underpaid

Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 15:44
Last edited 01/06/2022 - 21:04

I hear this a lot i got 3 friends that are teachers and the biggest complaint they have is they have to 'do extra' work planning and they feel they dont get paid 'enough' - from what ive seen most 'well' paid jobs people are expected to do some unpaid over times ie Lawyers, Accountants etc

Until i recently looked into the remuneration i always felt they 'deserved' more money but i personally think they are 'fairly' compensated i have linked the Victorian teacher salary PDF 'class' room teachers earn $72k starting to $108k (>10 year experience) - Now teachers who are specialists/leads can earn just under 120k.

https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teac…

108k would put you in around the 90th percentile of earners which is the top 10%
https://povertyandinequality.acoss.org.au/income-calculator/

now my friends all report they do 'some' work during school holidays but overall there working year is 40 weeks a year plus a few extra hours for planning and marking. When you take in all the holidays into account, ill add this 'wage chart' is as of the end of 2020 so once the new EBA comes in they would probably get another couple % point bump on that.

I personally dont think that 'warrants' the under-paid mantra they push but i might be out of touch i feel like they're actually on pretty good money….

OZ-Bargain is a pretty 'progressive' place so i'd be interested to see what others think on here

Other thing to factor in is this is Victorian and there would be differences between each state

Poll Options

  • 467
    Teacher are Under paid
  • 684
    Teachers are Fairly paid
  • 122
    Teachers are Over Paid
Education & Work

Comments

  • Caped Baldy on 01/06/2022 - 17:30
    +3

    Where's the "are politicians overpaid?". Citizens should be rioting.

    • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 22:26

      But but but they all say nice things on the telly and take the knee once a year. What more can you ask for, you ‘crazy extremist’.

  • brad1-8tsi on 01/06/2022 - 17:34
    +2

    I work at various schools and the car parks look very affluent.

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 01/06/2022 - 18:16
      +1

      Wait until you see the reserved parking at a hospital.

      • brad1-8tsi on 01/06/2022 - 18:19

        True, although the anaesthetist that I do group training with drives a 10yo Suzuki Swift. Her sister's car (also a Doctor) also drives a dunger. I'm sure their partners (also specialists) have something nicer.

        • brendanm on 01/06/2022 - 23:00

          Check out what the cosmetic surgeons drive.

        • greatlamp on 04/06/2022 - 09:10

          An anaesthetist could buy a Suzuki swift on one months salary. Obviously they have money and spend it elsewhere

  • shaybisc on 01/06/2022 - 17:39

    Were teachers at one time on the same money as backbenchers? I read this somewhere ages ago but I have not been able to fact check it. When did this last occur? What grade of teacher?

    • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 17:42
      +1

      Yes and I believe it ceased in the 80s

    • Baghern on 02/06/2022 - 13:50

      Not teachers, Head Teachers, the one in charge of the teachers were

  • mrhanky71 on 01/06/2022 - 17:50
    +1

    Teachers should be paid more but the other prerequisites to become a teacher should be made harder.

    • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 18:32
      +2

      Like what? Can you offer some details on where teacher qualifications need to be tightened?

      • lilyesp on 01/06/2022 - 20:13

        true i think it's not the qualifications that matter but their passion and interest…the problem is when someone loses their passion it is an easy career to just do the minimum…the only ppl that suffer are the students

  • MessyG on 01/06/2022 - 18:12
    +8

    They are responsible for the lives of multiple children, for most of the week. For that reason alone they should be made more. As should any profession that has lives in their hands. The pay structure was set up by people long dead, for a world that doesn't exist anymore and these 'caring' professions have been utterly shortchanged compared to the responsibility they're required to have. Their working conditions suck, which you'd know if you'd ever spoken to a few, the level of responsibility is high, and god forbid if we paid them what they are worth, we should have a highly functional, settled, and educated populace in the future, who earns and spends more.

    But by all means, erode their value with words…

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 21:17

      and god forbid if we paid them what they are worth, we should have a highly functional, settled, and educated populace in the future, who earns and spends more.

      we have the highest paid teachers in the world and our education ranks 38th out of the 41 EU/OECD nations the evidence would suggest money isn't the issue.

      i guess my question to those that think teachers are 'under-paid' what do you think would be a fair wage would be. Top teachers are already almost in the 90th percentile, id say principles and assistant principles would be well into the 90th percentile - what is the expectation for wages for teachers what would be enough.

      they are essentially at the highest end of the salary scale, but we have some of the 'lowest' standards in the developed world.

      im not having a pop at teachers i do think that they have a hard job but i also think 50 dollars an hour plus benefits is a decent wage

      • YBAF Pilot on 02/06/2022 - 07:39
        +4

        I think you need to elaborate what you mean by “lowest standards in the developed world”.

        Culture, policy, politics and parental schooling plays a pivotal role in the outcome of your quoted rankings. Teachers teach to a national standardised cirriculum. Teachers have an increasing admin workload which is definitely detracting from active teaching because of inadequate policies at most. Not to mention with having to deal with an ever decreasing amount of authority in the classroom again from policy.

        Your statement suggests that teachers are solely responsible for your quote rankings through questionable standards and this somehow has a correlation to salary. People in the industry have answered your question and gave perspective. It seems you came into this discussion with a closed mind. Your argument is still the same. Again teachers as a whole (worldwide) are undervalued and you contribute to undermine them with trivial posts like these.

  • GrueHunter on 01/06/2022 - 18:34
    +1

    I personally dont think that 'warrens' the under-paid mantra

    Dunno about pay, but your English teacher probably needs compensation for PTSD.

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 21:08

      well i dont know about my English teachers but yours would be laughing because 'Dunno' isn't a real word …. if you're going to gramma nazi perhaps ensure you have good gramma….

      • GrueHunter on 02/06/2022 - 21:13

        'Dunno' isn't a real word

        Aww, you get to be wrong and functionally illiterate. Here's the entry in the OED (that's the big book with all the "real words" in it:)

        • dunno, v.
          Pronunciation: Brit. /dəˈnəʊ/, /dʌˈnəʊ/, U.S. /dəˈnoʊ/
          Forms: 1700s– dunno, 1800s dono, 1800s dunna, 1800s– donno, 1800s– dunnaw
          Origin: A variant or alteration of another lexical item.
          Etymon: English don't know.
          Etymology: Representing a regional and colloquial pronunciation of don't know (short for I don't know).
          Compare dunnamany adj., dunnamuch adv. *

        perhaps ensure you have good gramma

        "Gramma"? A variety of pumpkin, a cultivar of Cucurbita moschata?

        Did you perhaps mean "grammar"?

        Here's a number you can call:

        1300 6555 06

        Ask for "Warrens".

  • Godric on 01/06/2022 - 18:56
    +1

    Based on the teachers i had, no

  • BewareOfThe Dog on 01/06/2022 - 18:59
    +4

    Not all schools are equal
    Not all students are equal
    Not all teachers are equal.

    I know my girlfriend works hard and has done for 30+ years, but unfortunately some of her colleagues don't pull their weight, and neither does the Principal or Deputy.

  • Guerilla89 on 01/06/2022 - 19:02
    +10

    I work as a tech at a school and they are definitely underpaid. I would do a lot and I mean a lot of things for 80-100K a year, teaching is definitely not one of them. Dealing with kids and their parents requires a very specific type of person with and a lot of the attributes you need as a leader and inspirer aren't things that you can just learn. I would honestly rather work minimum wage at any generic fast food place or labourer than work as a teacher.

    I don't think the pay is the problem though, it's generally the support that I think they need (at least that's what I would want in their shoes). They need less students per class or more teacher aide hours and student support provided for those with disabilities.

    The fact that food isn't just available to all students and that supervision for those dropped off before 8:30am or those picked up after 3:15pm isn't just provided for the hours of say 7am-5pm blows my mind. I remember when I was a kid and I had friends that would come to school with a packet of aeroplane jelly for lunch and would beg for food from friends. I remember a girl who had to hitch hike home 20km's in grade 6 with her little sister from grade 2 often. All of that stuff the school doesn't really resolve, it all falls on to the teachers and they can either make an easy buck and accept that they can't fix everything or tear themselves up trying to fix the world.

    Then of course eventually you'll deal with abuse at home and you'll feel like kids only have you to look to and you'll report it and you'll report it and report it and report it and you can only hope things are happening above you in the background but those kids will be looking at you. Just to give you an idea the training you'll receive will specifically tell you that you can't and shouldn't promise that you'll be able to fix the problem or remove them from their parents, it also specifically tells you to not give up with reporting even if you feel like there's no point.

    • Benoffie on 01/06/2022 - 20:44
      +4

      I haven't worked at a school yet where teachers aren't paying for student lunches.

      One local primary school I know a teacher who buys shoes from Kmart for the kids (they come with no shoes)

      Almost every public school, breakfast clubs are paid for and run by teachers. We used to bring in a box of cereal each a week for students.

  • orchy on 01/06/2022 - 19:43
    +7

    Perhaps people need to understand teaching requires a minimum of 4 years of tertiary education, often, two degrees. The 108k salary is after 10 years experience. Most new teachers only last a few years and move on, realising the stresses involved are not worth it. Being a teacher is a calling, you can’t do it properly unless you are the right type of person. Spend a day with a teacher and you’ll understand. The trouble is, everyone is an expert because everyone went to school….. In the same way I understand what it’s like to be a nurse because I’ve been to hospital.

  • Saver Scott on 01/06/2022 - 19:45
    +12

    You write about the long holidays but my mate who’s an electrician and earns WAY more than a teacher (about twice as much) and he got paid good money during his apprenticeship, while teachers had to pay for their degree, and he gets an RDO every fortnight which, when added up, and not including his 4 weeks off a year, comes to about 5 weeks. So he’s on two weeks more work a year than a teacher but he’s on twice the amount of money and he got paid for his apprenticeship. He also doesn’t take his job home with him.

    One current thing impacting the teaching profession is the rise of privileged students and their self-entitled parents who want to helicopter around the school throwing their accusations around and hurling abuse at everyone and wanting staff to bend over backwards for their little Jimmy who just sold a vape to other kids.

    Then there’s the lack of parents, the people who neglect and abuse their kids, so teachers are working as parents. Then there’s all the mental health issues with children so teachers are effectively working in a crisis centre, helping students with their mental health and working together to keep kids off the streets or from self-harm.

    On top of this there’s all the chefs in the kitchen because everyone wants to be involved in education, so federal and state governments compete along with local councils, and every time there’s a new politician they want to make their mark and enforce changes. Included in this group are school leaders and want-to-be leaders all staking a claim. All of these people keep piling onto an insane workload that’s literally impossible to complete.

    On top of that, many politicians distrust teachers so teachers have a battle to fight there too. Just this year on the news some jerk politician threw his shit at teachers.

  • lonewolf on 01/06/2022 - 19:59
    +5

    Having worked in jobs where i have provided IT support for teachers etc They definitely work much more hours than they get paid for. Schools and universities are notorious for under valuing how much hours a teacher actually works.

  • bhm133 on 01/06/2022 - 20:05
    +12

    Teacher here since 1998.

    While I am 'fairly' paid, I am hard capped due to my experience.

    My argument, and the argument of most teachers, is not the pay but the workload. I am here at 7.46pm still plugging away. Yes, I have had a break to pick up my daughter from dance and help out with dinner and washing up, but I am still marking, planning and prepping. I will call it a night around 10pm.

    I am at work at 8am at the latest. I sometimes have meetings at 7.30am. Every other year I have a 7.30am start as I teach year 11 and 12. I leave around 4 - 4.30 if I am able to. At home, I work more and do at least 2 to 3 hours at home. I also do a few hours of weekend work and if reporting time, HSC exam time it is literally balls to the wall. End of year and holiday time? Guess what? I am programming and adjusting coursework.

    The 'issue' is the government and other invested bodies who try to get blood from a stone. There is more and more paper work. More and more justification and evidence that needs to be provided to demonstrate I am an effective teacher. I have to 'prove' I am an effective teacher every 5 years by compiling evidence and submitting a report across measured outcomes. I also have to provide evidence of 'registered' professional learning to show I am meeting the criteria of a reflective and effective teacher. I don't do this during school hours. Other teachers will be able to elaborate on this and the demands required.

    Add to that challenging personalities (children, staff and parents) and the amount of mentoring and guidance adds up. As an example, a 5 minutes issue at school ended up around 2 hrs of my afternoon/evening speaking with parents over attitudes and class issues. That isn't a one off either. It is ongoing and seemingly never ending. As well as counselling, we are also now meant to address issues such as consent, gender identity etc. The list gets bigger and bigger, with more and more responsibilities. This is the tip of the iceberg. So far for 2022, several beginning teachers have quit. I don't blame them. Beginning salaries are 'meh' at best and the workload just doesn't match the salary.

    I love my job and the years I have given it show this. The salary is fair, but the workload is more and more. Class sizes are huge and demands/expectations are high. Reduce the workload and teaching outcomes will improve and more people will stay in the profession. We are at crisis point and we as a society need to raise our standards, not just for education, but for health.

    • lilyesp on 01/06/2022 - 20:11

      sounds like you are very dedicated and value your work- this case you should be paid much more and i would support it- but there are others that are bad or just not dedicated- perhaps not their fault- maybe just difficult students etc

      • Charmoffensive on 02/06/2022 - 11:12
        +2

        There are lazy people in every profession, that's not a reason to withhold pay from others.

    • jellykingdom on 03/06/2022 - 14:52

      I have a question… what is the point of working until 10pm every day…? I mean, not all teachers are doing that, and it isn't resulting in you getting promoted or more money. So why bother?

      • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 14:19

        You need to be prepared to step into a class. You can't just say "f it, I'm going to bed" if your lessons aren't ready to go. You can't just rock into a lesson hand out a few worksheets and sit back and relax. It doesn't work that way. 32 kids will be hanging off the fans and climbing out of the windows in about 4 minutes.

  • lilyesp on 01/06/2022 - 20:10

    Teachers?
    Yes there are good teachers dedicated ones who should get higher pay
    but then there are lazy ones

    -i remember back in HS-
    -just rinse repeat- the only comments on essays are "good work 6/10" or "outstanding 7/10"
    -pretty cruisey for like working 3/4 the year only 6 hrs a day….
    when you're tired just put a video on tv

    so yes some deserve more pay but others are overpaid

    • Eeples on 02/06/2022 - 10:48
      +3

      Things may have changed since you were at HS. Teachers need to justify their assessments.

      Typically, students are given a rubric before they do a task, and that rubric details what marks are awarded for what.

      The student gets the rubric filled in for their task as feedback.

      In this way, both students and teachers can justify the assessment.

      But, of course, way more work for the teachers.

  • normo86 on 01/06/2022 - 20:24
    +12

    Great question OP. As a primary teacher of 10+ years in north west of Sydney, here is my view.

    It’s only as I’ve reached the top band of teaching I’ve realised we are fairly well remunerated when you factor in holidays. This realization for me came with experience and starting to work smarter not harder. However, a few points. I admit, the hours I work now are not as long as they once were as I am a father with young family and priorities have changed.

    • Our paid work hours are 8.30-3.30- 7 hours per day On average I work 2 unpaid hours a day (on site)(my wife also a primary teacher would be about 4). Yes there are professions that work unpaid hours. But there are also a hell of a lot that don’t. So 10 hours a week. 400 unpaid hours per year. So if you factor in 12 weeks of school holidays 12 weeks x 5 days x 7 paid hours per day =420 hours. So I’m about 20 hours ahead (or behind. Whatever way you look at it.)

    • In my time teaching the complexities of the job have evolved. Not many for the better. When I started my school had 30% EAL/D (English as an additional language/dialect) students. Now we are mid 80%. Ranging from beginners (no English) to consolidating (pretty good with some minor issues) I can tell you first hand when a student arrived fresh into the country, it is very stressful and complex.

    • Abilities in the classroom. Take Maths- this year I have kids in my year 5 class doing year 10 level through to year 2. I have to cater for them and every student in between for every lesson.
    • Anecdotally when I started there was a couple of students in the school with significant learning difficulties. Now there are one to two in every classroom.
    • Parents- where do I begin. I can honestly tell you I spend about two hours a week at a minimum replying to emails. It is a bit like customer service.
    • Programming and reporting. Usually done in holidays or weekends.
    • Now external factors such as cyber-bullying that happens outside of school coming into school.
    • Covid and a shortage of teachers. I’ve had days teaching 60 kids at once.

    Ive just scratched the surface. There is a lot more.

    I guess my point is the complexities have made my job harder, yet it has not been reflected in advancement of pay. If you asked a Plummer to replace a simple pipe and he or she had to crawl through a manhole, cut through concrete and dig a big hole, replace the pipe, fill the hole and replace the concrete they will say to you “yeah the reason the quote is this much is because it’s a complex job, it’s not that simple.”

    All in all as complexities have increased, I feel our pay should reflect that.

    Cheers.

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 21:21

      thanks for being honest good to see an actually balanced comment from a person in the industry - it is fair enough the points you are making

      • YBAF Pilot on 02/06/2022 - 07:53
        +3

        I just saw this comment after replying to one you made earlier. Normo86, has given you a plethora of information and justified his stance on remuneration. It seems that at face value you are then accepting where teachers stand, albeit a with a pretty weak response.

    • cannedhams on 04/06/2022 - 09:32

      Probably the best comment in the whole thread.

  • Obkay on 01/06/2022 - 20:39
    +5

    Marking papers at home in the evening for 2 hours a night unpaid.
    Preparing lesson plans at home in the evening for the next day unpaid.
    Replying to texts and emails in the evening from parents asking why their brats are failing class, unpaid.

    Any professional would call this unreasonable overtime.
    Reasonable overtime is a few hours a week to the one off late night work to meet a deadline.

    An extra 2 or so hours every night is not reasonable. Hence teachers are underpaid.

  • htc on 01/06/2022 - 20:41
    +2

    I always wondered why there were advertisement trying to convince students (high performing) to study education. I never saw an advertisement to convince students to become doctor.

    • brendanm on 01/06/2022 - 21:28
      +6

      Who would want to spend 4 years and $XXXXX at uni studying to be a teacher, when you can make much more money doing something else, as well as not having to deal with parents. Hats off to those who do it.

  • tessel on 01/06/2022 - 21:22
    +5

    I'll get hate I'm sure but if you've never taught you've nfi. It's completely unlike most professions. They may get paid enough but there is very little support and expectations are overwhelming. I quit teaching and have never been happier. I have the utmost respect for teachers because it's such a demanding and thankless career for most yet it plays such an important role in society. When my daughter starts going to school I'll make sure her teachers understand we are supportive and will contribute where possible and not let them do the parenting but instead focus on what they should be doing, teaching.

  • brendanm on 01/06/2022 - 21:27
    +4

    I wouldn't do their job for what they get paid.

  • George Washington on 01/06/2022 - 21:39
    +1

    Just a thought perhaps teachers can be paid a salary + a KPI commission?

    jks

    • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 14:21

      There's been discussion about KPIs for years but no one can come up with a fair system. There's so much more to it than basing it on students grades.

  • Longtimescroller on 01/06/2022 - 21:55
    +10

    As someone who has made the transition from mechanical engineering to teaching I can share my own anecdotal experience.

    I work harder and longer hours now as a teacher, albeit with more enjoyment and fulfilment. I'm probably less stressed but more burnt out. I would be happy to work for the same pay (at least keeping with inflation) if the career was respected and the time demands of my role weren't so excessive.

    Due to technological advancements and beurocratic data driven decisions, the role of teachers has exploded with countless tedious tasks that each offer little real value whilst all adding extra strain and burden to teachers.

    When it comes to pay, I think the issue is that there is limited potential for growth after 5-7 years. Most teachers max out at 95-100k, which on its own is quite competitive. In most other professions wages continue to grow throughout a workers career, especially through job jumping. When you consider that most of your working life is actually between 30 -60 years of age, you can see how this lack of growth will affect life time earnings.

    Holidays are great! I get time to plan, prepare content at my own pace and will often spend 1 week in each of the mid term holidays marking, programming and literally just catching up on all the compliance that I couldn't fit into the term. Ultimately , it's like working from home 1 week with complete autonomy. Covid has actually meant that the rigidity of on-site teaching is less attractive and more expensive (travel costs) than other work which can be done remotely. I'd say in all, the 12 week holidays is more like 8 weeks of which you have no choice when to take it. It should also be noted there are approximately 5 public holidays included in those holidays. Thus a fair comparison to other industries is 7 weeks for teachers compared to 4 weeks for others.

    A typical day for 90% of teachers would be:
    730 arrive at school
    730-845 prep for classes
    845-1500 teach 4/5 hours with 30min break and 2 duty.
    1500-1630 admin, email students, meetings.
    Go home
    730-930 Prep classes, marking, feedback.

    I know personally and most colleagues will then spend at least half of Saturday or Sunday prepping for the week with a variety of task.

    There is also the issue of when you are sick! It's actually harder to take a sickie because you need to prep the work in a way that can be delivered by a teacher without expertise. It means kids fall behind in project work and makes it even harder when you get back in.

    Ultimately, the role is challenging, misunderstood and undervalued. It has beurocratic inefficiencies and has changed in a way that has lead to increased workloads and complexities. If we don't cut admin and increase the profile of teachers through wage rises the problems will only get worse.

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 21:57

      fair enough i agree there is WAY to much red tape from what ive seen i do think this 'ceiling' after 5-10 years is a common issue with most public paid jobs

    • star-ggg on 02/06/2022 - 00:32
      +4

      Any white collar profession that demanded these kind of hours would paid $200k + variable bonus

      • filmer on 02/06/2022 - 10:00

        I think the problem with that statement is in other jobs only the top 5-10% make that sort of money. If someone is in the bottom 60% they could be earning far less than a teacher caps out at for their career.

        • star-ggg on 02/06/2022 - 10:37
          +2

          A bottom 60% earner in a white collar profession would be doing 9-5pm with a lot less responsibilities and need for creative input. Bring under/over paid isn't just about the $ amount.

      • Almost Banned on 02/06/2022 - 12:20
        +1

        You are absolutely dreaming.
        The law firm I work in half the lawyers earn less than the top pay for classroom teachers, and NONE earn anywhere close to $200k outside partner level.

        • star-ggg on 02/06/2022 - 12:45

          So the majority of lawyers are underpaid/overworked and nobody likes you. What's the motivation for doing it as a career?

    • trapper on 02/06/2022 - 16:24
      +1

      A typical day for 90% of teachers would be:
      730 arrive at school
      730-845 prep for classes
      845-1500 teach 4/5 hours with 30min break and 2 duty.
      1500-1630 admin, email students, meetings.
      Go home
      730-930 Prep classes, marking, feedback.

      There is no way 90% of teachers are typically doing 11 hour days, you are dreaming.

  • whatwasherproblem on 01/06/2022 - 22:02

    There's a surprising number of teachers on this bargain hunting forum.

    • Longtimescroller on 01/06/2022 - 22:12
      +4

      Not that surprising if you think of the shear number of teachers. Not to mention, we were all drawn to the post with the keyword "Teachers Underpaid".

    • Almost Banned on 02/06/2022 - 12:21
      +2

      But are they on here during working hours…???
      That is the question you should be asking given the context of the thread.

    • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 14:24

      This post has been linked to from a number of other places eg Reddit and Facebook do not surprising at all.

  • giventofly on 01/06/2022 - 22:12
    +5

    My wife is a high-school teacher.

    She works at least twice as much as me, and earns less than half what I do.

    I work in I.T.

    They're underpaid and undervalued. It's not just the planning, and the marking. There is all the other administration crap - dealing with parents, and extracurricular activities that all go unpaid, or under-paid.

    Until I had kids, I had no idea how much hours foundation teachers put in. There is so much work that goes on outside of the school.

  • Dack Smith on 01/06/2022 - 22:16
    +5

    Teachers are underpaid just like the other essential workers like Police and Nurses.

    While society squabbles over what bonuses and extra pay CEOs should get, the ones who actually are responsible for the foundation and preservation of human life are paid a pittance.

    What will the state governments do about this?

    Probably nothing.

    I’m sure capitalism solves everything right?

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 22:16

      this is probably a fair point

    • Gervais fanboy on 01/06/2022 - 22:29
      +4

      I can’t tell if you are being ironic at the part in the end there.

      I mean, capitalism is structured to operate in an open market with little to no government intervention.
      The Western education system is riddled with governmental bureaucracy. So unless you are kidding, our health care and our education sector is more socialist than it is capitalist.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/06/2022 - 22:51
    +1

    It's less about how much they get paid but more what other people get paid. A year 10 drop out can become a traffic controller or work in construction and make 6 figures. I know a teacher who quit and became an entry level florist and started on more than what she was making. A disability support worker with a 12 month cert starts on 65k. Real-estate agents make close, if not more, than a lot of teachers. Warehouse forklift drivers can also be on ~70-80k.

    Teaching requires you to not only complete year 12, but invest 4 years of your life to a degree and go into debt 40k to get that salary. We can debate about the pay and work all day but this is undeniable. There's also no point looking at other countries pay for teachers because again, it's about what you can earn otherwise. 2k a month in Thailand doesn't sound great but if your average labourer is only making 500, then that's pretty good pay. When the median/mean salary sits around 70-80k, then the pay is hardly good and average at best before you even consider the opportunity costs and the job itself.

    I remember talking to a teacher in Switzerland and he was shocked when I told him most plumbers probably out earn teachers.

    • filmer on 02/06/2022 - 10:02

      Teachers graduate on 70k here. Plumbers who own their business earn more, plumbers who work for someone will not.

    • Almost Banned on 02/06/2022 - 12:23
      +2

      Sorry - your friend was earning more than $70k pa as an entry level florist???
      I am definitely in the wrong job - or that story is pure BS.

      • Bad Wolf on 02/06/2022 - 17:19

        I know a florist well, hourly rate mid 30’s with more then a decade experience.
        $70k pa entry level would not be the norm and most entry level jobs are also part time.

      • [Deactivated] on 03/06/2022 - 12:13

        Sure, it's anecdotal, I admit that. It wasn't my only point though…

  • m0nkeycheese on 01/06/2022 - 23:10
    +2

    Dated a girl that was on 108k, always complained about it but was earning double what I did. She just wasted it. She didnt have to do much more than I did.

  • newjerseydamo on 01/06/2022 - 23:20
    +2

    I used to live with a primary school teacher for a few months several years ago.

    The amount of hours spent outside the "office hours" working, plus being abused by kids at school and not being able to do anything about it, plus the parental contact after hours too that I witnessed …

    I swore to myself you could never pay me enough to do that job.

  • tempco on 01/06/2022 - 23:25
    +2

    Teaching pays well if you have firm boundaries and ignore admin work until someone pulls you up on it (which means it’s important enough to be done). As a teacher in my sixth year who worked in finance prior, it’s a great gig. 8:30-3:30 work hours and long holidays, and I’m on 95k already. But it’s not for everyone, which is why there’s such a high dropout rate.

    • star-ggg on 02/06/2022 - 00:35

      How much face to face teaching time are you doing between those hours?

      • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 01:08

        I usually have one period free to prep and recess & lunch, so non-teaching would average around 1.5-2 hours a day.

        • Benoffie on 02/06/2022 - 09:25
          +3

          I call BS. At least in SA, the legislated face to face teaching time for 1FTE is 5.5 hours a day.

          • filmer on 02/06/2022 - 10:05

            @Benoffie: Is that not a maximum amount of hours?

            • Benoffie on 02/06/2022 - 18:37

              @filmer: Then you're not getting paid 1FTE.

              Schools have a right to fill your day up to the 5.5 hours if on contract so long as no exceeding 1260min NIT allowance or if so, that isn't exceeded for a fortnight. (In other words, you get NIT TOIL if they consume it one week, in the next).

              • filmer on 03/06/2022 - 09:55

                @Benoffie: So it's a fortnightly limit, and you can have lots of free time one week, and less another?

          • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 12:05

            @Benoffie: Sure bud. I’m in WA and I don’t know what my agreement is but I haven’t been told what I’m doing is wrong so power to me I guess? And yes I’m full-time.

            • Almost Banned on 02/06/2022 - 12:25

              @tempco: Thanks for your honest input Tempco.
              If you want to read your agreement, I posted the link elsewhere in this thread.

    • Orion au on 02/06/2022 - 06:23
      +1

      I agree with the 'firm boundaries' part. It's an essential skill in teaching. It's a bit like being a farmer - there's literally always more work you could actually do if you had limitless hours. I think this is what burns a lot of younger teachers out so early in their careers.

    • greatlamp on 04/06/2022 - 09:21

      Sounds like you learned how to manage your time and become efficient by working in finance.

      An investment bank doesn't create a new pitch book from scratch for every client, they invest in IT and develop shared resources so they can maintain a standard and get this done as fast as possible.

      90% of the complaints teachers have would be solved by sharing resources. The schools already have state wide networks…

      • tempco on 04/06/2022 - 18:28
        +1

        Yes and no. I’ve got a lot of time-saving habits that are transferable but so do other teachers who haven’t worked in other sectors. What I definitely do much better is to put my needs over the needs of my students. I don’t help kids after work hours or during my break times. I don’t volunteer my time for things like ATAR tutorials, committees, community-based activities, excursions/incursions, etc. I don’t make those tricky, time-consuming calls to parents/guardians to help them understand that their kid needs a certain type of support. I don’t spend that extra 10 mins every lesson to make sure my teaching is sufficiently targeted to the wide range of students I’ve got. I don’t do many of the things my colleagues do because that isn’t in my interests, and at the end of the day that’s what I learnt from being in finance.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/06/2022 - 23:44
    +2

    Not sure who would even want to become a teacher these days only to end up dealing with shitstain parents (ˡᶦᵏᵉ ᵃ ᶠᵉʷ ᵖᵉᵒᵖˡᵉ ᵒⁿ ᵗʰᶦˢ ᵗʰʳᵉᵃᵈ) and the amount of ever-growing admin bs, when there are so many other low-stress career options offering higher pay and better employee appreciation.

  • Commander Shepard on 02/06/2022 - 00:24
    +4

    My partner spent 6 years at Uni to become a teacher. She finally finished and started work, she then copped a tonne of burnout and unless she moved to the country, she didn't get enough consistent work to make a decent living. She now works at a Call Centre. It roughly pays the same.

    Not worth it. Go work somewhere else and get paid more for a quarter of the effort.

  • The Wololo Wombat on 02/06/2022 - 03:49
    +2

    My two cents as a teacher (now a deputy principal): Teachers are paid well in Australia, but the profession is SO important for society/economy that I'd be happy to see the pay go even higher to attract/retain the very best.

    The main burden of teaching how stressful the job is - the admin, the marking, the data/red tape, the disrespect, parents/public projecting all sorts of social issues onto teachers: we NEED the holidays to decompress (eg - not many male teachers keep a solid hairline haha)

    I'd imagine many teachers would take a pay cut if they could have smaller class sizes and a reduction in admin/data collection - that's what drives people away and causes 80+% of the stress.

    I want to work one day as a 'teacher advocate' (perhaps consultant) and see teachers win more autonomy and better working conditions; happy teachers with more energy to invest into their students' learning!

  • Canberralad92 on 02/06/2022 - 05:31

    What's with all the 'quotations'? I'm reading this like you're 'Dr Evil' from Austin Powers or 'something'.

  • candlelarbra5212 on 02/06/2022 - 05:55
    +1

    Most people can't even fathom what being a teacher is like. They see an adult looking after children and see that as an easier role, due to having experienced being cared for as a child or having children of their own. It might even be because in a traditional hunter gather society, the elders were given the responsibility to look after children while the adults did the important work of gathering food. Let me assure you that teaching has no correlation to traditional child caring and that most parents have no clue what they are doing but still feel they have equal knowledge to teachers.

    The only authority parents have is that of being responsible for their childs upbringing. Most parents are woefully under-qualified to have input into their childs education beyond the overall direction, the specifics need to be left to the educators. If you disagree answer this question, what's the difference between a grapheme and a phoneme? If you couldn't answer, you can't even teach a kindergarten child to read let alone a high schooler trigonometry. If you could answer that question what is the best way to teach it, not to one 5-year old, but 20-30, 5-year olds. All with minute long attention spands, at different levels of learning, different home environments, how will you teach it while also teaching them how to deal without emotions, resolve conflict, self-regulate behaviour. How will you do all of this and more at the same time? This is what teachers are experts in.

    I've worked as a teacher, I've worked in private enterprise, I've worked in many different workplaces. More than most people. A teacher who leaves the profession and persues another career typically excels because of all of the skills they have as a teacher. Most people I have worked with outside of teaching, would fail as teachers.

    This conflicts with peoples pre conceived notions of educators and teaching. Most people scoff or get angry, they'll say things like 'my mum was a teacher and…' or "I have friends who are teachers and…'. Yet if you actually put this to people who have worked as teachers and then in other professions they will always agree. At least everyone I have put it too has.

    That in itself is justification for paying teachers more and I could keep going but also think of it this way. Education is the key way to build a prosperous society, what lawyers, accountants and doctors do are important but they are reactive, they solve problems as they come up. Education is proactive, it builds society, the science is clear as to the benefits of investing in education. You can't have doctors or lawyers or accounts without education. Who do you want to look after you when you're old? Someone who has gone through an education system that has been short changed or someone who has had the best education possible. Proper funding of education starts with educators, there is no way around it and with the teacher shortage at the moment it should be everyone's top priority to increase teacher salaries, or at least not stand in the way.

  • lunartemis on 02/06/2022 - 06:51
    +4

    As a teacher myself, it is not the working hours that we should be judged on but the intensity of what we have to deal with during the class time. 50-60 min lesson will have 25-30 individuals with different needs and learning styles we have to cater for while dealing with behaviour issues coming from various reasons.

    Imagine a therapist/doctor having to consult 25 different patients in the same room within 50 mins…

    • tempco on 02/06/2022 - 12:13

      Absolutely. Decision fatigue is real.

  • magic8ballgag on 02/06/2022 - 07:32
    +2

    Yes, they have to babysit your children for 5 days week.

    • lunartemis on 02/06/2022 - 13:38

      Try doing it for a semester and see what you think after that

        • lunartemis on 03/06/2022 - 06:32
          -1

          What do you do for living that you think is so much better than others?

  • smartazz104 on 02/06/2022 - 08:25
    +7

    I wonder how many people who think teachers are overpaid had a hard time at school…

  • Carmen Sandiego on 02/06/2022 - 08:30
    +1

    As someone with almost all of a teaching degree (I literally passed all but the final placement), teaching a special occupation that requires people who are both passionate about teaching, as well as organised. I had the former, but not the latter. To this day, if anyone asks if I want to finish the degree, I would more happily jump out a window than do it.

    As for teacher (including the kinder/early childhood teachers) pay, I definitely think they need to be paid at least more than median of $62,400. The amount of stress and pressure they get from the government, parents, other teachers, society, and the children is more than justified for hazard pay.

  • Dack Smith on 02/06/2022 - 08:39
    +4

    I get the vibe from the comments here that many probably thinks Alan Joyce is underpaid compared to the teachers and nurses.

    Good on you, I’m sure when your children are in school next you’d much prefer a corporate education from CEOs.

    CEOs and the elite keep our hospitals running and our streets safe from criminals.

    They fight fires too and supply food to the masses.

    We need more Alan Joyces

    Alan for PM

  • WT on 02/06/2022 - 08:42
    +2

    sis in law is a teacher and makes over 100k, for someone always on holidays thats good $$. Bro in laws brother is a principal at a private school, he is way over paid

  • keejoonc on 02/06/2022 - 09:08

    How can teachers complain when they get 12 weeks off per year? That's 3 times more than what most people get!

    • Benoffie on 02/06/2022 - 09:32

      I dont get that. I also don't get paid for time off.

      People do understand that casual employees aren't paid for not working, right?

      • th123 on 02/06/2022 - 19:37
        +1

        Do you get casual loading for the period when you are working?

  • BrettSh on 02/06/2022 - 09:23

    Overpaid? From what I've seen, no!

    My wife is a teaching principal in a small Victorian primary school and while she does earn an above average income, I have to say it's a surprisingly stressful and life consuming job.

    My wife got the job after her predecessor (and boss) went on stress leave and… never came back.

    I socialize with her collogues from time-to-time. Most of them never seem to stop thinking about work. They talk shop and will ring each other in the evenings and weekends to discuss work related stuff.

    As with any profession, you will find varying levels of ability and commitment. However, I'd say most of them are more than earning their paychecks.

  • PeterSnoot on 02/06/2022 - 09:29

    I think that some teachers are overpaid for work that they do while many more are underpaid. The problem with the public service is that it is difficult to get rid of the under-performers.

    Education is very important so raising salaries would be one way of attracting high quality people to the profession.

  • metrosilver on 02/06/2022 - 09:44
    +2

    Wife is a teacher and i'd never want to do that job ever. Mountains of admin work that you could only get through in your workday if you had all day and didn't also have to teach all day too. Abuse from students, sometimes physical. Abuse from parents who like many on here, have no idea how teaching works. Policys in many schools where the student is always right for fear of backlash from parents so the teacher gets no support when accusations are made. After school events you are made to attend including parent teacher nights that can go till 9-10pm at night.

    All the people against a payrise i really don't think you understand these people are raising your children. The wage should be high to attract the best otherwise who in their right mind would do the job? if we as a country actually took education seriously teachers would be among the highest paid professions as their impact on society is immense.

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