Are Teachers 'really' Underpaid

Trying2SaveABuck on 01/06/2022 - 15:44
Last edited 01/06/2022 - 21:04

I hear this a lot i got 3 friends that are teachers and the biggest complaint they have is they have to 'do extra' work planning and they feel they dont get paid 'enough' - from what ive seen most 'well' paid jobs people are expected to do some unpaid over times ie Lawyers, Accountants etc

Until i recently looked into the remuneration i always felt they 'deserved' more money but i personally think they are 'fairly' compensated i have linked the Victorian teacher salary PDF 'class' room teachers earn $72k starting to $108k (>10 year experience) - Now teachers who are specialists/leads can earn just under 120k.

https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teac…

108k would put you in around the 90th percentile of earners which is the top 10%
https://povertyandinequality.acoss.org.au/income-calculator/

now my friends all report they do 'some' work during school holidays but overall there working year is 40 weeks a year plus a few extra hours for planning and marking. When you take in all the holidays into account, ill add this 'wage chart' is as of the end of 2020 so once the new EBA comes in they would probably get another couple % point bump on that.

I personally dont think that 'warrants' the under-paid mantra they push but i might be out of touch i feel like they're actually on pretty good money….

OZ-Bargain is a pretty 'progressive' place so i'd be interested to see what others think on here

Other thing to factor in is this is Victorian and there would be differences between each state

Poll Options

  • 467
    Teacher are Under paid
  • 684
    Teachers are Fairly paid
  • 122
    Teachers are Over Paid
Education & Work

Comments

  • jrvb42 on 02/06/2022 - 20:56

    Good teachers are worth their weight in gold.
    Trouble is, they aren't all good, yet all get paid the same.
    And there is a shortage, so can't just fire the crappy ones.
    I don't have a solution, just stating the problem.

    • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 20:49

      Well the solution is fairly obvious. Make the profession more attractive so that you can get more good teachers to get rid of the crappy ones.

      You're right, though. At the moment there are teachers being given permanent full time positions who would have been lucky to get casual work 5-10 years ago.

      Literally any teacher who is registered could get a full time permanent job right now, and that leads to mediocrity.

  • stunspore on 02/06/2022 - 21:26
    +2

    Teachers are underpaid.
    Compare the responsibilities and required qualifications to be a teacher. Also consider the maximum salary a teacher may earn - roughly in 15 to 16 years. Would a 4 year degree such as engineer be earning 105k+? The aim is to retain teachers, not just attracting them - because attrition rate of approx 40 to 50% after 5 years is pretty significant - you would be constantly losing experienced staff for less experienced.
    Different professions can earn over time or bonuses - which teachers don't have the opportunities to earn.

    Ask yourself this question - would you like your child taught in the same way with same resources "every year" because the teacher isn't constantly updating lesson plans/resources? Or treated as individuals, providing professional interventions as needed or differentiated in the class by varying the type and difficulty of work/tasks?
    How demoralising to have your child put effort in doing work in class, such as exercises, assignments or essays, and it isn't mark? How many minutes do you think it might take to correct 25 pieces of work produced in just one class (and you either have more than one class like high school, or different subjects with the same class in primary)? Time spent marking them is less time preparing for the next few lessons. We could delay them until we have the time, but that just piles up. A fair trade would be having the school holidays to somewhat relax as well as catch up on preparation/marking.

    A train driver earns 100k+. Heavy responsibilities - we wouldn't want accidents with loss of lives. Construction workers standing and waving signs or tradies with their fortnightly RDO (which with public holidays have more days off than teachers, as school holidays often have public holidays in them). Quite a few professions won't need a degree and out earn teachers - not to say it is easier or harder - just that it isn't about are people earning enough to have a happy life type thing - but to compare against competing professions - those that a teacher could have picked or leave teaching to do - and ask how much numeration to pay off the time and HECS as well as lifestyle.

    Pay needs to move up to attract and more importantly retain quality candidates. It's what people say when CEOs and politicians get pay rises.
    As for rubbish teachers - that's a distraction from the majority of other teachers. Any industry have their rubbish employees. Though there seems to be a higher proportion with politicians .

  • johndoh89 on 02/06/2022 - 23:25
    +5

    Teachers are paid 35 hours a week and accumulate leave that covers the holidays based on the days worked. If they work 0.8FTE they get 0.8 of the leave.

    On the topic of holidays as part of the compensation. To offset, by treating it similar to time in lieu, every single hour in the 12 weeks paid holidays 1FTE teachers would only need to average 45.5 hours a week during the term and complete zero hours of work in the holidays. 43.75 if we get two weeks annual leave like many other professions.

    How much you are paid (salary) as a teacher largely depends on your time in service. Only the highest tier of the scale (in NSW) has any merit basis, has a fee to apply for and involves quite a lot of extra work both to obtain and maintain for not much of a bump. It can only be reached after maxing out the first scale and a set amount of time.

    How 'well' paid you are depends where your average hours sit. At the highest pay on the standard scale the hourly rate is a very reasonable $60 an hour.

    Recent surveys (self reported data) show that teachers are averaging 50 hours a week during the term. At 50 hours the effective rate is down to $42. Those working closer to 60 hours have put their effective rate below the median rate ($37 iirc) at $35.

    The more hours worked, the less the effective pay rate as well as an increased impact on your life with lost personal time. The closer a teacher can get to having all 12 weeks holidays and working a 35 hour week the better the pay and conditions are.

    Extra responsibilities and challenges don't improve the pay, they reduce it. If you have a class of 10 students all on grade level and perfect angels, you're paid the same as someone with 32 students, 10 on individual plans due to additional needs, some higher than grade level needing extending and some needing behaviour plans due to difficulties regulating behaviour.

    Some teachers run all the extra curricula sports, performances, go on the week long excursions, lead professional development and tons of other things around the school in addition to teach their class. Others burrow down and hide in their rooms never to lift a finger beyond that sanctuary.

    Some classes I've been able to mark, give feedback and do most of my planning while students work independently on their next task. I even got all my breaks and often left at 4pm. Ask me then and my pay and conditions were great.

    Others I can't touch the admin/paperwork until after 5pm when I've finished calling the parents, writing records of contact and reports about the behaviours, and I spend most of every break dealing with the consequences of those behaviours. Then I'd do hours of work at home and still not get it all done. Ask me here and you wouldn't get the same answer I gave above.

    The work in the second instance is multiple times more difficult and time consuming, the ones shouldering all the load of extra curricular activities, are all effectively getting paid less per hour than the the ones who have it easy.

    Are teachers paid enough? Too much? It comes down to the teacher, their class and their school, not the profession as a whole. Base rate is good, but extra challenges and responsibilities should come with extra pay.

    Every time to prospect of strikes come around I suggest that we simply work to our hours. Turn up half an hour before the bell and leave half an hour after and attend the staff meeting. That still gives the department an unpaid 5+ hours a week. Maybe some crunch time around report writing and parent teacher interviews since it is a salary and reasonable overtime is to be expected.

    But otherwise we triage the tasks and get done what we decide is most important. If anything else is required they can find a casual or employ more staff to do it with paid time.

  • TheRealCJ on 03/06/2022 - 08:24

    okay now imagine having to take care of 30 or your kids everyday, but you're severely limited in how you punish them when they misbehave. Teachers should get paid what I used to get paid to babysit. Ten bucks an hour per kid, times 30 kids in a classroom. 300 bucks an hour

    Let's simplify and not count before and after school hours, that's 6 hours a day, by 193 days… that's nearly 350k per year.

    Now imagine if instead of the teachers taking your kids for 6-8 hours a day five days a week, you were forced to take care of them in that time, so you can't work. Imagine what that does to the economy.

    and that's just a pure financial argument. What this post is ignoring is the importance of education for the future; Teachers aren't at their best when they're constantly struggling to make ends meet. I think given their importance to a well-functioning society, and the amount of work they do, they are being underpaid. Add to that, when I babysat the neighbours kids, my only job was making sure they got to bed on time and didn't die; I wasn't expected to have them pass strict examinations and meet a minimum standard of education. I also wasn't expected to spend a significant chunk of my free time preparing to take care of the kids, which teachers absolutely do. They don't get paid for the hours they put into marking, or preparing the classroom between terms, or meeting with parents and going above and beyond in order to ensure the kids under their aegis don't fall behind, hours and hours of phone calls, of outside-hours tutoring, one-on-one lesson plans (on top of full-class lesson plans). One struggling kid can practically double a teacher's overall workload.

    And that's before anything else like coaching a school sports team, or after/before school care, meetings, commuting to other schools for interschool sports or multischool activities…

    A good, attentive and passionate teacher is worth their weight in solid gold. Give them the extra few grand they want, otherwise we'll end up with teachers who don't care, and suddenly, in the long run, that extra few million in teachers' salaries will equate to hundreds of millions in economic downturn.

  • payless69 on 03/06/2022 - 08:25

    Good teachers tell me how inefficient the school systems are.
    I have to agree. Better coordination of states = less waste and this would end up as better education and better conditions for teachers!

  • Ruddaga on 03/06/2022 - 09:19
    +3

    Didn't read everyone else's comments so I'll post my thoughts as a teacher.

    Everyone who isn't a teacher thinks they have the right to weigh in on teaching. Just because you went to school, doesn't make you an expert on what it's like to be a teacher. In what other profession do you have to go home and do your work at home, and you're not fairly remunerated for it?

    I guarantee any and every profession you list off will bill their clients or company for their time, and everyone of you will say - rightly so, they earned it!

    I'm not sure when or where it became normalised that teachers are just expected to use their evenings and weekends for planning their lessons, marking and drafting students work - and in this current age of tech, replying to parents and students emails at any/every hour of the day.

    I love being a teacher and don't mind the work load, but there's a reason we have something like 50% of people quitting teaching in the first five years of their career. And it's not because the job is "easy" and "pays well" . It's because the work expectation is insane now on today's teachers.

    I'd personally love a system where teachers can clock on at home for the hours they put into working on the stuff that needs to be worked on and them being properly compensated by it, but I know that will never happen since it's literally become "the norm" that it's just part of the job to do all the crap that we do in our own time.

    And without even reading the bazillion comments on this thread, I know the majority of non teachers will be up in arms doing the - WELL YOU CHOSE THIS CAREER SO LIVE WITH IT or OH IN MY JOB I HAVE TO DO THIS….

    Like I said, the statistics speak for themselves. We have an insane teacher shortage atm due to mandates / covid / people quitting / retiring.

    I'll say this to the nay-sayers - seriously, if you think the job is so easy, ask yourself why are so many people quitting the industry.

    I'll tell you why - because it's not :)

  • tap on 03/06/2022 - 09:47
    +3

    It's a really simple argument;

    If teachers are so overpaid then why doesn't anyone want to teach?

    • pais on 03/06/2022 - 09:50
      +3

      Answer is invariably a variation of "couldn't pay me enough".

      • tap on 03/06/2022 - 10:13

        I wonder why it's always such a contentious issue? If it's so easy and so lucrative then why isn't there more teachers?

        There are some teaching jobs offering an additional $9k/year (paid after the 2nd year and for only 2 years after that) as a special payment to lure teachers into specific schools (a bandaid if you ask me). There is massive demand.

        What happens when there is high demand/low supply in any industry? Little to nothing in a teacher's case. They have to literally work more hours which is what happened at my school when teachers were asked to volunteer to take on extra classes because there were no CRT's available.

  • syousef on 03/06/2022 - 10:19
    +6

    This thread neatly demonstrates the complete and utter lack of respect for teachers and teaching. If you want to know why kids aren't doing better with their education, you can start right here. You aren't going to attract the best and brightest while you treat them so poorly.

    • [Deactivated] on 05/06/2022 - 11:10
      +1

      Exactly, this is why I say, whether they're under or over paid depends on what type of people you want as teachers.

  • Franc-T on 03/06/2022 - 10:32
    +2

    Wife is a senior teacher in Victoria - she is on around $100K but god she earns it. Its not just the teaching itself, its the meetings and paperwork, working during holidays and late at nights to correct work. That said, she works really hard - for a teacher that does the minimum or teaches and easier subject things can be a lot easier, its annoying that salaries dont reflect that.

    I get annoyed with her when she takes the odd day off….to do corrections

    Also there is tons of insecurity with the job, at least for newer teachers that are on contract.

  • vinni9284 on 03/06/2022 - 12:30
    +2

    Yep 200% underpaid

  • Jamie007 on 03/06/2022 - 12:57
    +1

    No. I have teacher friends who are on around $100k. Seems fair for a 40 week year with 15 days sick leave. And before anyone says "they're not real holidays because they have to do work!", BS. I know what these people spend the school holidays doing and it's not working on lesson plans…

    • pformag on 03/06/2022 - 13:37
      +1

      If your teacher friends are only working 40 hour week, then they are not doing a good job.

      • [Deactivated] on 04/06/2022 - 14:30
        +1

        That's such a BS thing to say, put it on the teacher for not doing their job properly rather than the department of education for giving an excessive workload. Try that with any other job. If they're not doing their job properly, then it's because they're not given enough time. The contract says 38 hours.

        • tempco on 04/06/2022 - 14:46
          +1

          Agreed. Teachers are free to be martyrs if they like but don’t make it an expectation.

          Work-to-rule is my default until they fix the current system.

          • [Deactivated] on 04/06/2022 - 14:57

            @tempco: Exactly, I've realised the martyrs actually make it worse for everyone. They set an expectation, no one decides to fix anything, they burn out and leave.

    • vinni9284 on 03/06/2022 - 15:50
      +2

      Do the job and the you'll see if you can. You think it's just drinking coffee and talking sh*t to a class. A lot of admin, conformances, reporting and the list goes on. When you're on a salary, they expect you to live to work rather than work to live

  • pformag on 03/06/2022 - 13:33
    +5

    Yes. Married to one. She does way more out of hours then she should. Reports, test, marking, lesson plans, meetings, PD's, camps. All these are after hours. Then has to deal with parents who don't parent, kids who need emotional support, kids with mental health issue. The modern day teacher is really a teacher, parent and phycologist in one.

    I also think STEM teachers should be paid a higher rate.

    • tempco on 03/06/2022 - 18:55

      No chance all STEM teachers get paid more - too many of them and it’ll be too expensive. At the end of the day it’s ATAR maths and science that is really in a shortage as some non-maths teachers can quite easily teach lower school maths.

      One solution could be schools being able to add bonuses to certain roles and link the number of positions with bonuses to how challenging the role is, and add some accountability/reporting.

      • Eeples on 03/06/2022 - 22:15

        I'm a fully qualified maths teacher (and more). (Have taught Ext 2 in NSW). But, have moved sidewise due to the workload. Pay me 10K+ and I would consider going back in for a year or two.

        • htc on 04/06/2022 - 14:36

          Which state has less paper work?

      • wombat81 on 04/06/2022 - 23:26

        In fact, while maths and science teachers are in demand it's the other stem areas like digital tech, engineering and design that are really desperate. Those teachers are unicorns right now.

        Have said that, finding English and PE teachers is difficult these days too.

  • Cheapsize on 03/06/2022 - 13:50
    +4

    Teaching is a 7-5 plus extra hours job.
    School camps. Before class care. Lesson prep. Red tape. Dealing with department/childrens welfare issues. Grading. Parent teacher interviews.
    Policy development and organising activities around the school.
    Liaison with external providers if kids have disabilities. That all takes up time and you have to deliver lessons and grade during the day.

    You get school holidays but most teachers come in and catch up.
    Can end up being 50 hour weeks.
    Would you settle for 72 k? There's more involved than people realise. Teaching is getting more and more complex as the years roll on.

  • Herbse on 03/06/2022 - 16:12

    I look forward to the next thread

    "Are unemployed people "really" underpaid"

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 03/06/2022 - 16:28

      to many moaners no more threads

    • Mr Haj on 03/06/2022 - 16:41

      5.1% pay rise under the new government?

  • Nost on 03/06/2022 - 17:10
    -1

    There are so many horrible teachers out their who don't know their subject well enough (and particularly noticeable in Maths and Science) and who put minimal effort in and on the other hand you've got teachers doing that extra mile and know their area of expertise well.

    I'd 100% go into teaching if not for the fact that the ceiling was so low and having the worst performers getting paid roughly the same as the best. If they start by widening the range of salaries to match the private sector and have teachers teach instead of moving up the ladder to management, it'll do wonders to attract the best.

    • wombat81 on 04/06/2022 - 23:21
      +1

      I'm interested to hear how you know there are "so many horrible teachers out their" (SIC)? Have you been going around schools doing performance reviews or something?

      Is it not obvious that if teaching was a more attractive profession there would be many more high quality teachers meaning the lower quality ones could be pushed out?

  • ribze1 on 03/06/2022 - 20:05

    My mum's a head teacher, she does work at home most nights of the week. Marking exams, homework, creating homework, timetables, reports etc.

  • sassypants on 03/06/2022 - 20:32

    Without any real knowlege or familiarity of anyone who is a teacher, my impression is that high school teachers should probably be paid more, and primary teachers are probably paid about right (given the details from the first page of comments with links to teacher pay).
    All the teachers in high school who teach math, English, science, or economics could likely have jobs in corporate settings earning far more.

    I work with many people who have a high proficiency in mathematics/finance/economics and they are paid well above the top tier teacher pay. As far as I'm aware, many teachers could earn a lot more if they weren't teaching kids and instead climbed the corporate ladder.

    Now, if you're teaching P.E. or art, then you likely aren't underpaid. Primary school teachers (from memory) didn't hand out much homework or assignments that needed marking, and also taught much simpler concepts. They did have to deal with kids on a different level (runny noses, soiling themselves, tantrums, etc) also, but I'd say pay for primary teachers are likely about right.

  • catmao on 03/06/2022 - 20:54
    +1

    Anyone experienced the Covid 19 home learning? I really respect this profession And always think they are underpaid and they are super busy. BUT during Covid home learning, my kids only got one hour max to see their teachers each day. If you exclude the greetings, the how was your morning etc, the actual teaching is only 30-40 minutes. It sounds like a easy job

    • 2190sarah on 04/06/2022 - 12:59

      My primary school children only got 1 hour in an entire week with a teacher!

  • hasher22 on 03/06/2022 - 22:37
    +1

    IMO: Whether they think they are underpaid or not isn't the problem. The problem is the workload teachers go through and no amount of money will make that go away.

    Money doesn't bring you happiness nor makes the stress goes away but it can afford the tools needed in current society to live comfortably like health insurance and better living conditions. Teachers (or anyone for that matter) could get paid 300k and still want more because the workload can be so vast, demanding and stressful.

    There is an interesting video floating around youtube regarding pay and what people will be happy with. From memory, 90%+ of interviewees state they want more pay, even people on 200k+ wanted more pay. One on 450k said he wanted more pay and it's never enough.

    It will never be enough.

    My friend is on 200k and his fiance is on 130k. They have 2 children, they go to private school, attend external classes, go on holidays 2-3 times per year, nice cars, nice house etc….. and every time I meet them, they seem so damn miserable and always complain they need more money and im like…… the money purchased the lifestyle you have now, and yet they still want more.

    Few videos on money and happiness
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-s0_yD3NOw How Much Money Do You Need To Earn To Be Happy?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Arpoo8I0dI Money DOES Buy Happiness | Scientific Research Explained

    • stunspore on 04/06/2022 - 11:43
      +1

      Those types of people are greedy, shallow and selfish.

    • Longtimescroller on 04/06/2022 - 15:54
      +6

      As a teacher I dont want more money (other than keeping up with inflation). I want a reduction in my administrative burden so that I can spend more work time preparing lessons and updating resources rather than burning myself out each night and on weekends. From lunchroom conversations, most teachers are in the same boat.

      • hasher22 on 04/06/2022 - 18:54
        +2

        I 100% agree, that's kinda of my point, think I went off topic.

        I always tell this to people with high workload, money isn't going to save you from stress, heacache and the workload. Someone get can get paid 300k but work 15 hour days, but when that paycheck comes, is it worth it? Worth your health? Stress? Freedom?

        Money is a bandaid fix not a real solution to the problem. Just like how America loves giving cures instead of prevention.

        It's like a movie I watched, a lawyer with everything but her son wasn't emotionally connected with her and she had a little winge (no fault of her own kinda) that her kid is unhappy cause she's never around but she always buy him things he wanted. He wasn't even a bratty, spoiled kid, but a kid that just wanted love. And IMO, no amount of money will compensate a kid's love to his/her parents

  • hellno on 04/06/2022 - 00:36
    +1

    Honestly, I have always liked working with kids but one of the biggest draws to teaching for me were the holidays and short work days. My goal was to become a PE teacher and live the cruisy life.

    My mum was a super hard working teacher like many have mentioned here. She was a year 1 teacher and she would be at work from 7 til after 5 every single day and once dinner and kids were sorted she worked late in to the night… every night.

    I, on the other hand, was not born with the hard working gene. You get both sorts in teaching, as you do most professions.

    Unfortunately after being 5 years in to my teaching profession I realised that even the laziest of teachers were having to do ridiculous amounts of preparation, marking and 'ticking boxes' for the people upstairs.

    So I, as with (I think?) something like 50% of teachers, decided to toss it in within the first 5 years and went away and did other stuff. Eventually, I was talked in to coming back (despite being lazy I guess I am pretty good at it) and am a Primary PE teacher. Even as a PE teacher the extra work is stupid. After 6 hours of teaching and controlling 25+ kids you are physically drained and the last thing you want to do is program, plan, assess, contact parents, enter behaviour reports, etc.
    I would never go back in the classroom because the extra work required is out of control and it gets more every year. PE is obviously a lot easier but i'm currently sitting here past midnight after having spent the last 6 hours entering report comments - I'm not even half way (and this is just the entering! Not the writing!) as I have 500+ students…

  • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 04/06/2022 - 00:41

    I think teacher's jobs are really important but that doesnt mean their value can or should be determined by how much they get paid although that is partly the world we live in.

    If professional salary adjustments are not carefully considered, you end up playing a cat-and-mouse game that basically speeds up inflation.

    Like:
    Teachers get $70K, Lawyers charge $100K. Teachers get $90K, Lawyers start charging $120K.

    Its never ending. Eventually inflation will catch up and teacher's $90K will feel like $70K again.

    Everyone wants more, everyone feels like they deserve more…everyone feels the same way.

    Plus if you were going to define the value of a profession by its annual income, i would assume you're the type of person who sees the value in their job by how much they earn, there are easier degrees and jobs you could do to get you to 6 fig salaries much quicker than a teacher (like IT or Business Information Systems). I dont think people who devote their lives to teaching in schools do it for the money…

    • stunspore on 04/06/2022 - 11:43

      yep and that's normal. that's natural progress of wages going up over time.

  • hashtagbargain on 04/06/2022 - 08:46
    -3

    The teachers are underpaid rhetoric is more applicable in countries like the USA where they earn close to minimum wage. Aussie teachers are doing fine I reckon.

    • wombat81 on 04/06/2022 - 23:14
      +2

      So why are there no graduates and existing teachers are leaving in droves and hundreds of schools can't even cover classes day to day? Doesn't sound "fine" to me.

      Edit: no response, just a down vote?

      • hashtagbargain on 05/06/2022 - 11:27

        It’s the workload that’s killing them, not the money (or the lack of).

        Agree with hasher22 above.

  • ChaLuo on 04/06/2022 - 10:25
    +1

    It's the same with any professions that can directly hold the society at ransom. They always cry poor , unfairly treated, discriminated, but always forget they are free to choose a different career

    • Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 11:15
      +2

      And many are! Why do you think the system is so close to collapse?

  • Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 11:13
    +2

    The real question isn't whether teachers are paid enough, but how do we make sure there's enough teachers in the system to actually keep schools running. It's getting close to breaking point.

    • stunspore on 04/06/2022 - 11:41
      +1

      I assume there is "market solution" - like maybe pay them more?

      • Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 11:57
        +1

        Maybe indirectly that's an answer. From my experience, I think what's needed is workload relief. So it'd be more money into schools, in order to hire more teachers and other support staff. Obviously that leads into the teacher shortage we have and so the answer is make it a more attractive place to work. Pay would perhaps come into that, but it's too simple an answer entirely. It's a tough situation..

        • stunspore on 05/06/2022 - 02:04

          more pay would entice more people to pick teaching as a career as well as retain those who think of moving to better paid professions.

  • dtgold on 04/06/2022 - 12:17
    +8

    I'm a teacher and assistant principal. When teacher's say we're underpaid, we mean that we're underpaid for the work we're being expected to do.

    Every teacher I know would accept the current level of pay (obviously with increases for CPI), if the amount of out-of-hours work was decreased. When you talk to teachers who left the profession, the main issue is workload, not money. In short, we'd rather have time than money.

    So, I'd argue that in theory, teaching is not underpaid. However, in practice, we are putting unreasonable workload expectations on teachers. Unless/until we're willing to fix that problem (recruiting more teachers, reducing administrative requirements, etc), the only way to compensate teachers is with additional pay.

    It always fascinates me that the people who think teaching is easy/overpaid aren't signing up to become teachers. Surely if someone thought it was easy money, they'd come and join us - there are plenty of vacancies.

    • Brianqpr on 04/06/2022 - 23:37

      All jobs are more demanding and stressful than they used to be. Teachers seem to think they are the only ones affected by this.

      I'm in financial services and it's massively different from 20 years ago in terms of job security, stress and demands on you.

      Everybody else works unpaid hours too.

  • Diji on 04/06/2022 - 14:01
    +4

    Wow some people here really hated their teachers huh?

  • Retchey on 04/06/2022 - 14:14
    -2

    I don't see to many teachers commenting, therefore they don't look for bargains, which leads me to believed they are not underpaid, just saying

    • Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 16:38
      +1

      …there's quite a few teachers commenting though?

  • weezlebub on 04/06/2022 - 15:13
    -6

    Less $
    - Teachers don't often have to create new material, they mostly recycle the same stuff they've done for years
    - Earning much more than the average wage
    - Their job is to educate, they should have their pay based on a scaling system in line with their students results
    - Lots of holidays
    - Have you ever met a PE or Art teacher?

    More $
    - Dealing with kids

    • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 15:42
      +4
      • Have you ever met a PE or Art teacher?

      PE teacher here, and I would love to know what you are insinuating about my job with that comment there.

    • Longtimescroller on 04/06/2022 - 16:04
      +4

      More$

      • Working unpaid hours each week.
      • University education many with Masters degrees and HECS debts
      • Capped pay not competitive to other industries
      • increased workloads without reflection in pay conditions
      • Sick days don't really exist, you end up staying up prepping classes for hours to make sure your classes can operate.
      • Lack of respect for the industry means less teachers are drawn to the profession.
      • Market forces dictate that either workloads need to to drop or wages must rise to increase supply of teachers.

      In all honesty, I don't need a pay rise. I need an administrative time cut.

      • Brianqpr on 04/06/2022 - 23:34

        Same sort of pressures as in most jobs, just with more holidays. You don't have a monopoly on stress. Pretty much everyone works unpaid hours these days.

        • wombat81 on 04/06/2022 - 23:39

          So why aren't there PR shortages in other industries?

    • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 16:20
      +2
      • Their job is to educate, they should have their pay based on a scaling system in line with their students results

      So teachers working in schools with different contexts (high EALD/refugee backgrounds, additional needs, 'tougher'/lower SES areas) deserve less pay than those working in academically selective schools where they historically get the highest scores in state-wide testing?

      It would be interesting to see entire communities lose access to education if that policy comes into action.

      Education is not just about academic results. For some schools, a successful student is someone who leaves with enough skills to become independent, employable and a contributing member of society.

      Do those teachers not deserve the same remuneration as those who work with kids who get tutored before and after school and/or are gifted and talented enough anyway to guarantee top results regardless of the teachers they have?

    • Orion au on 04/06/2022 - 16:39
      +3

      You're clueless

  • serpserpserp on 04/06/2022 - 15:56
    -2

    What I don't get is why can't teachers hours be 9-6 like the rest of the corporate world? Then they have 2 plus hours a day for planning, marking etc. Then they still get to keep their 16 weeks off a year.

    Not the same but know someone that started working for higher Ed on the teaching side after running their own business in the field. They literally feel like they don't have to do much work to make everyone happy. Plus they get just as much time off a year, make good money, more secure. I also know a lecturer who earns heaps and now that he has done the job for a few years can just phone in the job. Heaps of time off too.

    Education sector can be great if you find the right job. The perfect work life balance.

    • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 16:14
      +3

      What I don't get is why can't teachers hours be 9-6 like the rest of the corporate world?

      Many are already working those hours (and then some), with a considerable amount of them unpaid.

      Then they still get to keep their 16 weeks off a year.

      16? NSW Public system gets 12 weeks a year off face-to-face teaching, but teachers are often marking/reporting/programming/completing admin work in the shorter 2-week breaks during the school year. I'm not familiar with other education sectors but I'm happy for them if they get 16.

      Education sector can be great if you find the right job have the right working conditions.

      FTFY. The public sector (at least in NSW speaking from experience) definitely does not have that at the moment, and it is caused by external entities who have very little to no idea about what we actually do, but unfortunately have a big say if what we do.

      • serpserpserp on 04/06/2022 - 18:24
        +1

        NSW Public system gets 12 weeks a year off face-to-face teaching, but teachers are often

        That is pretty great

        but teachers are often marking/reporting/programming/completing admin work in the shorter 2-week breaks during the school year.

        Yeah but you aren't working all of those two weeks through. Even if your were 9-5 all those breaks, you'd be getting 6 weeks off a year?

        Teachers work hard I'm sure, but they also seem to discount the benefits they do have.

        • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 19:16

          That is pretty great

          So your 16 was just an arbitrary, random number, to provide an uneducated commentary about the education sector, and how easy teachers have it? Sounds like you work in our head office!

          Even if your were 9-5 all those breaks, you'd be getting 6 weeks off a year?

          There are circumstances where we'd need to work in the January break, but the same can be said for any of the breaks. We aren't mandated (no face-to-face teaching etc) to work, but the incomplete workload will then be added to when we are back on-site. But yes, sure, we get 6 (or even 12) weeks off a year.

          Teachers work hard I'm sure, but they also seem to discount the benefits they do have.

          If things are as rosy as you suggest, then why is there a shortage of teachers? Maybe you should join us if it's got that perfect work life balance you're talking about.

        • tempco on 04/06/2022 - 19:29
          +2

          So how do you explain the teacher shortage? You can try to weigh up the pros and the cons from an outsider’s perspective but there aren’t enough teachers to fill classrooms. The fact is conditions aren’t enough to entice people to become teachers and stay in teaching.

          • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 10:02

            @tempco:

            But yes, sure, we get 6 (or even 12) weeks off a year.

            Most people get 4 weeks and yes, even fat cat corporate workers have to work on their holidays sometimes too.

            Teachers spend so much time dismissing the perks of their jobs. I think a lot of teachers go into the field thinking its going to be a good work life balance, get there and realize it is as hard slog as any other job, then are unhappy it isn't as utopian as they thought, then feel trapped.

      • Brianqpr on 04/06/2022 - 23:26
        +1

        The ones I'm related to absolutely do not work those hours, and they are good teachers. Have huge amounts of free time during the year, especially summer.

        As for 12 weeks off, they would need to spend 8 of them working full time hours to be on par with most other people. That certainly does not happen with my relatives who are teachers.

  • haemolysis on 04/06/2022 - 16:00
    -2

    I think teaching is kind of like asking a student to write an essay. Some pump it out in a classroom sitting, others will procrastinate, take it home to complete, get asked to submit a few times, get a letter home, and finally submit something they copied online. But ultimately, the “workload” was always the same. But ask either student, and you’ll hear a different story.

    Like sure, there’s some extra work. I don’t think, contrary to many teachers beliefs, anybody doesn’t understand that. But the demands aren’t exactly extreme; the standard school day is ALREADY shorter than ALL other industries, so effective workers can fit in their additional tasks. Most of those tasks amount to reporting, which if you are actively involved in the tasks at hand isn’t exactly a huge ask. Many of the bureaucratic complaints amount to “tick it and flick it” reports. And of course, planning tasks have the assistance of prewritten textbooks, online content and apps, videos, class swapping for various subjects, and even external programs. There’s plenty of ‘relief.’ It’s not all systems go 24/7.

    So ultimately, I don’t see a huge issue with pay, hours, or even workload. I know PLENTY of teachers and they’re no more swamped than the rest of us.

    However, I would like to see more overall paid hours go into every classroom. But not in the sense that I think the current incumbent should get a pay-rise, but rather, supplementary teachers are increased in number dramatically, student-teacher ratios are reduced, school operating hours are increased, and classes have more regular periods of dual-teachers for certain subjects and lessons.

    This would see hours made available for those that DO want them, more part time opportunities for the whiners that DONT, whilst also delivering higher quality education, plus the benefit of longer child minding.

    But just slapping more money into the award salary… errrr no, I’ll pass on that from the state budget.

    • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 16:32
      +5

      the standard school day is ALREADY shorter than ALL other industries, so effective workers can fit in their additional tasks.

      Right, the good old 'teachers only work 9-3'. Classic, that one. And there's no work to be done a second either side of that, right?

      Most of those tasks amount to reporting, which if you are actively involved in the tasks at hand isn’t exactly a huge ask.

      And your experience/knowledge of this comes from? Your armchair? Looks comfortable over there.

      Many of the bureaucratic complaints amount to “tick it and flick it” reports.

      Again, source? There is a lot of useless admin that we do, but many of those tasks unfortunately take up a considerable amout of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

      And of course, planning tasks have the assistance of prewritten textbooks, online content and apps, videos, class swapping for various subjects, and even external programs.

      Right, because textbooks and YouTube videos automatically differentiate materials and class work for the gifted/EALD/additional needs students in every class. Every class is just 'watch this video and daydream a while'. Never mind the feedback that we need to provide for all tasks that are suited to the learning needs of each student.

      There’s plenty of ‘relief.’ It’s not all systems go 24/7.

      Given the shortages I've experienced (NSW public high school), there is no relief. In the past week, I've had to take on a colleague's class along with my own in the next classroom on multiple occasions, and had to take other's lessons during my own free lessons because of staff shortages. There have been days where we cannot get enough casual teachers, so the one available casual looks after 5 classes at once sitting in the hall.

      Working in education from your perspective sounds like a breeze. Perhaps you could join the profession and enlighten us? We certainly could do with a few more teachers.

      • haemolysis on 04/06/2022 - 16:51

        I suppose you aren’t an English teacher because you read my post essentially calling for increased paid workers and better student-teacher ratios and somehow told me I don’t understand because you had to take on two classes whilst a colleague took on 5.

        Gee MAYBE… that’s exactly what I think needs addressing.

        And not your base salary.

        • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 16:58
          +4

          From your earlier comment…

          So ultimately, I don’t see a huge issue with pay, hours, or even workload.

          My response, in essence, was to explain the issues regarding hours and workload. I was also clarifying the misconceptions you had about the profession as your comments clearly indicate your involvement in the sector would only have been as a student previously, or as a parent now if you had school-age children.

          I suppose you aren’t an English teacher because you read my post essentially calling for increased paid workers and better student-teacher ratios

          'Increased paid workers'? As in hire more teachers? Well goody, you found a way to solve the teacher shortage. I should be okay this week and not have to cover extra classes when I'm supposed to be completing my other duties right?

          Edit: sorry, saw this from your comment…

          But not in the sense that I think the current incumbent should get a pay-rise, but rather, supplementary teachers are increased in number dramatically, student-teacher ratios are reduced, school operating hours are increased, and classes have more regular periods of dual-teachers for certain subjects and lessons.

          Supplementary teachers? We can't even get one into a classroom at the moment. Where are we getting 'supplementary' ones from? Your 'dual-teachers' idea of team teaching already happens in some subjects depending on the content. I'm not sure how this resolves the workload issue.

          Less students in my classes aren't going to resolve the issues I discussed above.

          And not your base salary.

          A competitive salary attracts people. We have a shortage and desperately need more teachers in the coming years. A better salary wouldn't hurt in my opinion. Armchair experts keep saying the quality of educators aren't good enough. Using the common metric of the ATAR for university entry, high-ATAR candidates stereotypically go into medicine, law, economics, all of which have a much high finishing salary of someone in teaching. How do we get 'better quality teachers' without getting the best and brightest of those entering tertiary education?

          We already have great teachers in the profession, and yes, of course some rubbish ones as well, but that exists in all industries. The workload as mentioned above is a major factor in the shortage of teachers, and can be attributed to lower education outcomes in students.

          Haha, also from your earlier comment

          plus the benefit of longer child minding.

          Thanks for thinking that the education sector is nothing more than child minding. You seem like a lovely person.

          • serpserpserp on 04/06/2022 - 18:30
            +2

            @IceCreamBandit:

            Thanks for thinking that the education sector is nothing more than child minding. You seem like a lovely person.

            They didn't even say that.

            • IceCreamBandit on 04/06/2022 - 18:51

              @serpserpserp: Correct, but it's fair to suggest it was implied that they didn't value the profession and the work that goes into education, otherwise, why would that even be mentioned as a 'benefit'?

              edit: 'nothing more than child minding' was probably too strong so apologies for that. I just found it offensive that it was even brought up as a benefit, just like how some view those who work in the early childhood industry as people who just play with kids all day.

              • Brianqpr on 04/06/2022 - 23:21

                @IceCreamBandit: Generally find its teachers that don't see the value in other professions, thinking they are the only ones that have to deal with management pressure, admin and stress.

                • IceCreamBandit on 05/06/2022 - 09:51
                  +1

                  @Brianqpr: From your sample size of…?

                  The teachers I've worked with (10+ schools in a variety of contexts in NSW public sector) don't spend our breaks talking about how easy other professions have it. If we thought other industries were that much easier, we would be there.

                  All Jobs have a place in society, and all should be respected. As we educate and develop young people who could end up in any industry, why would we speak lowly of others?

                  Generally speaking (as you can see from much of the misinformed and generalised comments by people here), I think the ratio of teachers who make disparaging comments about other professions would be much lower than those in other industries who think teachers just:

                  • babysit
                  • reuse the same materials/lessons from the last century
                  • watch kids play sport or scribble and just say 'well done'
                  • whinge for 40 weeks a year and spend the other 12 doing supposedly nothing.
                  • Brianqpr on 05/06/2022 - 09:54

                    @IceCreamBandit: Just saying that a lot of the things teachers complain about are in most other jobs too.

                    • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 13:51
                      +1

                      @Brianqpr: You keep saying that, yet still no one wants to be a teacher. So either:
                      a) you're wrong, or
                      b) teaching is a great profession to get into and teachers are just complainers.

                      The numbers of teachers leaving after less than 5 years tells me that it's not (b).

                      • Brianqpr on 05/06/2022 - 14:06

                        @wombat81: Not everyone wants to manage people, be it adults or kids, and very few are actually good at it. So teaching is definitely not for everyone.

                        It has good and bad aspects, as do most jobs.

                        • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 14:09
                          +1

                          @Brianqpr: All jobs have pros and cons, no doubt. But when we can't even get enough below average teachers to stand in front of classes, let alone actually good teachers, something is very wrong with the conditions of the profession. Until people start to realise that rather than just bagging teachers at every opportunity nothing will change and the quality of our kids education will continue to plummet.

  • wombat81 on 04/06/2022 - 23:07
    +4

    If it's so great why aren't people falling over themselves to get into teaching? Graduate numbers are at record lows and falling. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves.

    All these people bagging teachers, why aren't you doing it?

    • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 09:55

      If it's so great why aren't people falling over themselves to get into teaching?

      Sounds like the cohort of unhappy teachers are so loud that it wouldn't be the nicest place to work.

      • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 13:44

        You think teachers spend their days grumbling around school?

        • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 17:00

          They certainly spend their weekend doing it on OZB!

          • Orion au on 05/06/2022 - 18:22

            @serpserpserp: I'll give that retort a C overall. It was satisfactory. Rubric says the delivery scored highly in the 'well timed' outcome, was satisfactory in terms of 'humour' but only showed a partial understanding of 'originality'. Good effort.

          • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 18:50

            @serpserpserp: Sorry. Should have been working on my marking over the weekend instead, I guess. I get soooo many holidays I don't deserve weekends….

            • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 20:14

              @wombat81: Or you could just enjoy your many holidays and weekends instead of making out like you don't.

              • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 20:57

                @serpserpserp: Right. Lol. I assume you won't believe me but it's 9pm on Sunday night, kids have just gone to bed and I'm about to sit down and do about 3 hours work. I have drafts to turn around for tomorrow, I have some content to learn that I've never taught before, I need to add detail to some of my lesson plans for the week and I have 2 classes of marking pending that I doubt I'll have time to get to this week at work.

                Wait, maybe I'm just hallucinating all that…

                • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 20:59

                  @wombat81: Cool mate, once my kids are asleep I'll join you. Different industry but it's what needs to be done.

                  • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 21:08
                    +1

                    @serpserpserp: So we're in agreeance that your previous comment was BS? Good to hear.

                    What industry do you work in? What are you working on tonight?

                    • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 21:15
                      +1

                      @wombat81: Not in agreement on anything it would seem. But if you put as much work into your marking as you do your complaining on here, you'll be done by 10pm!

                      • wombat81 on 05/06/2022 - 21:18
                        +1

                        @serpserpserp: Sorry, forgot again that I'm not allowed to spend my weekends how I like! Silly me!

                        You best get crackin on all that work of yours too, eh?

                        I do find it interesting that someone who obviously doesn't work in education seems to know all there is to know about education. I've been to the dentist a bunch of times, maybe I should go find a dentist forum and tell them all what's wrong with their profession…

                        • serpserpserp on 05/06/2022 - 23:04
                          -1

                          @wombat81:

                          I do find it interesting that someone who obviously doesn't work in education seems to know all there is to know about education

                          Never said I did.

                          You best get crackin on all that work of yours too, eh?

                          Just finishing up now. I know it isn't teaching hours, but enough for me today.

                          maybe I should go find a dentist forum and tell them all what's wrong with their profession…

                          I'm sure with your creative writing skills you'll do a great job on that.

  • Brianqpr on 04/06/2022 - 23:18

    Have close relatives that are teachers, brother in law was home from work by 2.30pm most days. Minimal work during holidays (would need about 7 or 8 weeks full time work to be on par with most others who get 4 weeks leave a year.) and plenty of time to be out and about with their kids.

    They moan about paperwork and increased stress etc. Problem is many teachers have not done other jobs and don't realise that they are every bit as stressful and with just as much painful admin etc.

    The pay won't make you a millionaire but it isn't too bad either.

    • wombat81 on 04/06/2022 - 23:28
      +3

      Seems like you've got a pretty big sample size there.

      • Brianqpr on 05/06/2022 - 09:52
        +2

        Probably more than most commenting on here tbf.

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