Just want to hear what others might do. There's been some burglaries in my area, and that recent balaclava deal got me thinking on what I'd do if I'm a victim of a burglary.
If I was at home and burglars made their way inside, I'd yell "Give me my gun".
Am I allowed to have a machete or a metal baseball bat under my bed?
Assualt for what? They are breaking into my house and I'm the one that's going to get charged for assualt. Might as well be sitting ducks then…
You can only defend yourself (yourself not your property) and even then you can only use appropriate force. If they're unarmed and you start hacking them up or beating them with a bat you'd be in a lot more trouble than they would be. If they're armed it's a slightly different story but you can still only defend yourself, not just start attacking them.
What society expects you to do is let them take what they want, call the cops later to file a report then submit an insurance claim.
Culture teaches that only police have the right to defend. It
teaches that only authority has the right to decide if you are
worthy of defense, and what level of defense it will provide.
While it teaches that it is never acceptable for you to defend
yourself. Culture teaches that police are the only ones who’s right it is
to defend a people. It teaches that if people were able to defend
themselves, anarchy would be the result.
The penalty for defending yourself instead of relying on
police protection is usually extremely severe. The reason is
obvious, it shows the ultimate tyranny of law. If you aren't
helpless then they have little premise to remain in power over
you.
-The End of All Evil, Jeremy Locke.
Needless to say if we got broken into I would defend myself with whatever means I had at hand.
Am I allowed to have a machete or a metal baseball bat under my bed?
What a country!!
How much worse does everything have to get before people regain their value for freedom?
@Scrooge McDuck: I see that the owner figured out there was something he could do, after all.
"Can I get a soda?" I laughed.
@Scrooge McDuck: IMHO that would be more effective than locks them up in jail ( more cost to keep prisoner ). Imaging that store owners allows to beat their ass 10/10 times
@EightImmortals: Good plan, I reckon you could do some damage if you manage to hit them in the head with your Steven Seagal DVD collection
@Scrooge McDuck: I believe that’s classed as a war crime in some countries under cruel and unusual torture
@EightImmortals: In a democracy, the government has a monopoly of violence. The state can use force to compel you to do something (eg replace a gas stove with an electric one), to prevent you from doing something you want to (eg smoking pot), and can forcibly seize your property or take a large portion of your income as taxation. They can use force, but you cannot, even when someone is attacking or stealing your property.
@Thaal Sinestro: You can…. There's plenty of law around this supporting it. You just can't kill them or hurt them for the sake of hurting them…
@EightImmortals: @EightImmoratals
-The End of All Evil, Jeremy Locke.
50 upvotes. WTF???
I haven't read this treatise. But just from that quote there is a distinct whiff of 'Any Rand', extreme libertarian, 'ethical altruism' BS emanating.
Teenage angst-level…. "Awwww… I'm an individual, no-one can tell me what to do."
Imagine trying to go toe to toe with a determined invader then they over power you and take your machete and hurt you even more than originally intended
@Jimothy Wongingtons: Imagine being in a stranger's house in the dark and a circular saw revs up behind you.
@Scrooge McDuck: You're not quick enough to go to the garage and get your circular saw after someone breaks into your home.
@smartazz104: Nah go for the chainsaw, nothing spooks a burglar faster than the sound of a chainsaw starting. :D
@smartazz104: Keep a cordless one in your bedside table. Keep an eye out on those Ozito 18V li-ion battery deals on OzB.
@Scrooge McDuck: In that case best to keep one of those chainsaw apps on your phone and load that up over a bluetooth speaker if you hear breaking in lol
@Jimothy Wongingtons: Imagine not having a machete and the burglars decide to maim or kill you just for kicks. Some of them will beat up old people who don't pose a threat.
@Jimothy Wongingtons: They might do that anyway. You're just putting your hopes in the chance that the guy(s) aren't interested in attacking you to begin with. Nice to hope for the best, but you ought to prepare for the worst. These people are breaking into your house, so you're already dealing with people who have a looser moral framework than the average person.
So I should sit in the closet and secretly call triple 0, then pray that the police make it on time before the burglar leaves. At least I'm not too far from the cop shop.
@sammyq: Dono if it's similar but having a bat in your car for self defence is a big issue legally, so might be same for home, the ongoing joke is that your lawyer will love you if you also have a baseball glove in the car.
@Settero: Yeah baseball glove and ball.
That’s why you maybe instead should equip a vintage Winner International ‘The Club’ 1000 Original Club Steering Wheel Lock instead
It also comes apart so you can dual weild akimbo like a ninja if you need to take down multiple enemies at once.
@Jimothy Wongingtons: So best to keep a baseball bat, gloves and ball in the wardrobe. Then claim it wasn't placed there for self defence?
@sammyq: Most burglars are looking to make a quick easy buck. If you show them it is not going to be easy, they may just leave as it is not worth the risk. There are easier pickings out there, so why risk significant injury. For the most part it is a show of force on your end, but if they did decide to pursue you further, then you are within your right to defend yourself and your family.
When it come to defending yourself and your family, I would prefer to go above and beyond and wear the consequences afterwards, than to worry about the consequences and possibly suffer serious harm to yourself and your family from a lackluster defence.
@Malik Nasser: " lackluster defence." as opposed to what?
A dazzling Bollywood type performance?
Methinks you might be watching a tad too much 'reality' TV.
We don't get judges on everything we do in life by burnt out ,sold out dweebs.
Life isn't jousting with the stars, or I'm a victim of crime get me outta here
@Protractor: I haven't owned a TV in 15 years and haven't watch any of that crap since, so I don't understand your references or what you are trying to say.
All I am suggesting is arming yourself with a nasty looking weapon, and making it look like you know how to use it. You don't need to be the aggressor. Just stand your ground. If they want to pursue it further (they initiate further aggression), then you are forced to defend yourself (by whatever means necessary). Don't give away your power by backing down, or otherwise you are at the whim of the burglars, and they then get to choose the outcome (which could be anything depending on their mental state). Keep control of yourself and your outcome (to the extent possible)
I am not talking about chasing them down the street and beating them to within an inch of their lives. Just do what you have to do to defend yourself and your family (without taking it to the extremes).
If they choose to leave once they see you are not a pushover, that is the best possible outcome. You don't need to escalate it further from there, as it then opens up the possibility of something negative happening.
@Malik Nasser: "All I am suggesting is arming yourself with a nasty looking weapon, and making it look like you know how to use it. You don't need to be the aggressor. Just stand your ground. "
is nothing like>
"the consequences and possibly suffer serious harm to yourself and your family from a lackluster defence."
which is what I was commenting on
Congrats on avoiding the chaff on the screen, but you are rare, and (as yet) I have no crystal ball .
@sammyq: Don't waste your prayers on cops showing. May as well pray to God at that point. Go the bat at the bed. I think lots of people do and it could be the thing that helps you or your family.
@cookie2: Don't call saying there are violent burglars in your house. Tell them you have a car with illegal modifications or someone is doing burnouts on your street and you'll get an instant response.
@sammyq: the woman who was murdered by a youth a few months ago in brisbane died defending her house. might have lived by just hiding in a safe room. it's not ideal but dead people can't testify and the courts just let them out the next day
@belongsinforums: Her husband most definitely could testify in the courts, as he was there when it happened.
@sammyq: That is by far the safest option if you don't have any training. It's just stuff y'know? I know it sucks though.
For me? I've had years of martial arts training, but, I really would hate for it to come to that. I have children and I just want us to be safe. So I've made the house as strong as possible. Security screens on all doors and windows. Sensor lights at the perimeter looking in. Handy for me when I'm in the yard at night but super annoying for anyone trying to sneak around. Sensor lights at my house and cameras.
And I have 2 really annoying dogs that bark.
Apart from that I try not to worry about it. I feel like I've done all that's reasonable. Having to actually fight someone is the absolute worst case scenario and if it came to that, it's going to be just muscle memory anyway. I'll probably win, i'm defending my family but I hope I don't get stabbed and die. That would suck.
But I don't waste time worry about it. I've done all I can.
@Sxio: I would like to have all those security options as well, but I live in a rental so not much choice for me.
@spedohero: The neighbours have never said anything but probably. They definitely bark. It can be annoying.
They're pretty good songs for the most part.
There will be no witnesses in your own home so you can just start attacking them.
Just be sure you don't accidently kill them.
@trapper: Best to first get them to dig a trench in your backyard and line the garage with plastic sheets.
Wrong, at least in SA.
Dont BnE in SA. You're liable to get bashed or shot.
https://www.lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch12s12s09.php
Exemption to proportionality for home invasion in SA:
https://www.lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch12s12s03s01.php
So long as Im not an off duty cop, and not inpacted by drugs and my home isnt a drug or bikie den, bring it on baby! 🤣🔫🪓
Well, the society expected a lot from cops and there are never ending stories (including in this forum) of police inaction or apathy. This is an incorrect statement to state what "society expects you" as if you are The society.
but the truth of the matter is that if you have a family and there is a burglar coming in, you have every right to defend yourself and immobilize (not mutilate nor murder) the intruder and you can always argue your life and/or your family's life is in danger as you have no way of knowing the intruder is armed or not.
Source: friend's a detective.
This is why i think americans have more rights in some areas than we do..could use like some pepper spray..oh right
@lilyesp: They have slightly more rights, but are exponentially more likely to be shot or killed because of those rights.
because the first thing on my mind when someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night is that i use appropriate force and dont hurt the P.O.S. too much.
yeah - Australia doesn't have US Texan 'stand your ground' laws that allow people to shoot and kill people who innocently turned into your driveway to do a reverse turn.
@apsilon
Thing is that not everyone has receipts for everything and insurance claims needs proof.
Like my friends home got robbed back in the 2016 spree and unfortunately the police told him their no use to claim insurance as insurance needs receipts but the jewelry they stole from my friend was from lots of years ago and many were gifts so how was he supposed to claim insurance?
@GeorgeTropos: This is patently false. Insurance claims are easier with receipts but photos or sworn affidavits will often suffice. When I was robbed 10 years ago I had a receipt for maybe 2 or 3 items, I had no issues getting full reimbursement for everything that was taken that I had no receipt for including a watch, some jewellery items. I think it probably comes down to how trustworthy they think your claim is.
@gromit: Alr, I'll pass the info to my friend my it is probably too late for him to file a insurance claim for back in 2016. But yeah that means the police were giving wrong information then.
@GeorgeTropos: yeah a lot of misinformation floats around about insurance, receipts are by far the best and easiest proof, but anything from bank statements, photos or sworn statements may suffice. Obviously if you are trying to claim your Rolex and 4 Carat diamond engagement ring were stolen I imagine the level of proof is going to require significantly more than just your sworn statement that "honest sir I really had them". FYI after that claim I make a habit of taking some photos around the house once a year to have a record as well as photographing receipts when I have them and just storing them in my one drive.
You're allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself, someone else or your property.
https://theconversation.com/how-far-can-you-go-to-lawfully-p…
Offense is the best defense :)
Sometimes the difference between death or alive for you against an enemy is whoever can strike first to knocked out the other one. But how does one prove that kind of situation in the court?
What society expects you to do is let them take what they want, call the cops later to file a report then submit an insurance claim.
That expectation is not reasonable. If you can't afford to have an insurance and therefore are forced to stand your ground, is it logical? Expecting everyone to have an insurance is like giving an easy money to insurance company, which is not fair.
Use the bat. Or a heavy maglite. Don't use a bladed weapon, it will end very, very badly for everyone.
I believe prison only happens if a dead body is found. So the problem reduces to dealing with that effectively.
In our LEGAL system, there is precious little JUSTICE, and the two are often mistaken for one another.
I propose for small arms/guns to be legal again in Australia as the right to self-defence of self and property is an inalienable right of every Australian.
You've been watching too much tv or been on Reddit for your legal advice. Felons and misdemeanors aren't charges in Australia.
Maybe he’s American?
Maybe @mokr thinks they're posting to USABargain.
That's a red flag. OP should leave the burglars asap and file for a divorce. Make sure to get tested too.
Keep a gun burglar enters house, shoot burglar, then shoot roof tell cops you fired warning shot into roof 1st he kept coming
I do have a gun… a nerf gun lol.
Nerf bullet to the eye should do the trick I reckon
If you as the defender could easily have a gun, then so could the offender.
As opposed to right now, currently?
Where only the criminals own guns and citizens aren’t even allowed to defend themselves anymore.
Or do you actually believe that illegal gun smuggling isn’t a thing that criminals are engaged in this country.
@Gervais fanboy: Whats the chance of the eshay criminal having a gun?
You want to make it easier for non-pro criminals to have access to guns?
@Ughhh: The good ole' Murican way of thinking.. The problem with gun violence is that there is not enough guns… The solution to gun violence is MORE GUNS!!!! :D
@pegaxs: People who want guns are the last ones that should get them. People who NEED guns are few & far between.
Murrca is a laughing stock (and barrel, and trigger and ammo)
Why is out govt doing crucial military and security business with a 'Custer fLIck' whose laws can't even stop a "corporate gangster" (who praises Putin) from destroying their very democracy? A bloke who accepts the murder of their own kids as entirely a mental health issue? And with a country who takes all our our energy resources while we go broke trying to keep the lights on?
Ironic that the USA gave us popcorn. We're gunna need it, as we watch the melt down.
Amen
Murrca is a laughing stock (and barrel, and trigger and ammo)
We have literally no rights in Australia. Insert murica bad classic tagline here but if you believe there is a binary yes or no answer then you severely lack an understanding of reality.
@Scantu: If you DON"T think Murrca is a basket case, and it has the 'fantasy' freedoms you claim, then I'm not the one with any lack of reality comprehension. It just took the toxic Trump era to undo their keystone tenets.
You are correct that there might be certain 'rights' missing in Straya, but if that's your axe to grind, it begins when Cook arrived first and foremost.
Today in the HoR the fact we are now a nuclear waste dump for weapons grade waste was formally confirmed. The public have NO say in it. The USA does.
@Protractor: This is just such a simplistic view that it isn't anything but wrong - " fantasy freedoms you claim" - What you mean, freedom of speech, equality at law, protection against searches, presumption of innocence and rights against self incrimination. Such a fantasy huh? The reality is, you, along with many other Australians so you're not alone, believe that we are "Basically the same but just a little different" but the reality couldn't be further. It's a certain type of stockholm syndrome.
It just took the toxic Trump era to undo every myth the place was built upon
For justice to be fair and accurate in a democratic country with 350 million people it needs to be slow and precise. If he's done anything wrong, he will be going to jail.
Your view of what makes a democracy (Namely: I don't like that the orange man got elected, therefore an incredibly complex country is bad), is simple, and wrong.
@Scantu: Oh I DO want the orange man elected.
That alone will get the plebs paying attention. He may even can AUKUS. Yee haw!
Basically if Trump even half gets away with the shit he has done, the US constitution is either redundant or dysfunctional, a point smarter people than me have made.
Now about the undemocratic weaponisation (nuclear) of our country by foreign military forces, without community input.
Basically if Trump even half gets away with the shit he has done, the US constitution is either redundant or dysfunctional, a point smarter people than me have made.
Such a complex system developed over hundreds of years, with billions of dollars spent litigating a hundreds of years old document - but you have the answers, without an American law degree - and better than that - in one single sentence on Ozbargain. So amazing!
And sure I'm completely against any agreement the USA has with Australia abusing as a proxy to allow their law enforcement agencies to bypass their own Constitution for spying on its citizens 🤙
@Scantu: As opposed you your bold claim we have literally no rights? Yeah sure.
With all the talk about freedoms and how much they value them what has the USA done with them? Voted for a guy who kisses Putins ass, and all the other jokes he's played on them.
If the freedoms that bother you that much don't exist here, but do in the USA you know /have the solution.
As for the guns, we have too many. And what's more the majority of Australians would probably support even further restrictions,long before entertaining the idea of relaxing laws. National laws is a good step in the right direction.
I can't think of anything I would want less than to be an American lawyer
As opposed you your bold claim we have literally no rights? Yeah sure.
That's not a claim, it's a fact. Australian courts have virtually no power to prevent the legislature from overriding basic human rights - in fact, the state and fed do it constantly to the point where it's so normal that noone reports on it.
With all the talk about freedoms and how much they value them what has the USA done with them? Voted for a guy who kisses Putins ass, and all the other jokes he's played on them.
So you think you should remove freedom because you don't agree with the choice that was made freely. That's gonna be a big YIKES from me - I'll let you think about the implications of that
but do in the USA you know /have the solution
Yeah potentially, I am looking at redomiciling my businesses in the USA and buying real estate there. But I also love my home and would love to see us Australians get some basic sense of respect for ourselves and improve our democracy. But for me in my mind, no bill of rights = no taxes. I can't philosophically can't support a government that has repeatedly laughed at the idea of people having rights. So we'll see.
As for the guns, we have too many. And what's more the majority of Australians would probably support even further restrictions,long before entertaining the idea of relaxing laws. National laws is a good step in the right direction.
Complex topic that can't be boiled down to a post on Ozbargain
I can't think of anything I would want less than to be an American lawyer
Don't worry you're not even remotely knowledgeable enough to even be an Australian one, you're not in the danger zone. American lawyers are pretty stunned at our lack of basic fundamentals whenever I discuss it with them. But we are a rinky dink country compared to them, there is still time for us to develop a proper constitutional republic rather than the shitty monarchy adjacent thing we have now.
@Scantu: Great.
Lawyer or not. America has taken up where Monty Python left off. But the irony is strong in this one Luke.
The humour,not so much.
Litigation killed America. Even happier now, to know (thanks) that I'll never make the grade of their circular "spiral to nowhere safe" legal profession.
There's nothing complex about less guns is a good thing.Too late for the USA. Another downward spiral.In fact I'd like to see our local media ban reporting their mass shootings. It's just mainstream normal now, and not news any more.
@Scantu: So because we don't have the same 'bill of rights', we can't protest, criticise the Gov, have right to jury, practice religious activities?
Why isn't 90% of the Australian population in jail already!!!
@Ughhh: Unsurprisingly the answer is more complex than a vast oversimplification based on your feelings.
But on top of that - yeah, there actually are currently deeply problematic laws that have seen protestors arrested unjustifiably.
There have been many federal laws passed that remove judicial rights, especially over the last 5 or so years.
But apparently because specifically you don't have your finger on the pulse, it doesn't matter.
You are the sort of person that doesn't believe in climate change until the water laps at your door.
You are the sort of person that doesn't believe in climate change until the water laps at your door.
You're the type of person who thinks they see and understand everything and makes assumptions.
I will pray illegally for you.
You're the type of person who thinks they see and understand everything and makes assumptions.
Well, feel free to point out what I've misunderstood. I'll be here. :)
What's illegal about praying? If we had a first amendment it would be considered a protected activity - unlike now, where you are just lucky the government hasn't been annoyed by you so they outlaw it (This is legally achievable in our current system - which is the issue I'm highlighting).
@Ughhh: Exactly, we are vastly safer as we are now, where the average burglar doesn't own a gun, because they have no need for them. Last night some poor drunk dude tried to open my front door with his key in the early morning (mistaken address). I was alarmed but not terrified - how bad could it be? Afterwards I reflected that if it had been in the US I'd have been much more afraid, and there'd have been a chance he'd be shot in a similar situation
@Horacio: Indeed. The Ralph Yarl case shows how much fear people in America live in. Why the f would we want that here, how brainwashed by the firearm billionaires would you have to be.
@Gervais fanboy: I'll just go check the gun related crime stats in Australia…. Oh yeah its freaking lousy with guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r…
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/2010_hom…
What is stopping you from owning a gun?
The law?
J.A.R.V.I.S., deploy the booby traps from Home Alone 1.
Sure. But in this whacky legal system you’d go to prison for assault or manslaughter (or maybe murder?) depending what happen. Whereas if they get away even if caught they’ll be back on the street in no time :)