Bluetti EP760 + 2x B500, 9.9kW Home Battery $9,999 @ Bluetti

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Bluetti Australia

• 

  gembel on 01/09/2023 - 21:28

  +1

  Installation costs?

  • 

    cycloneaussie on 01/09/2023 - 21:36

    Unknown at this point

• 

  adam on 01/09/2023 - 21:29

  +23

  Assuming I fully charge and fully drain 10kwh every day and assuming I pay $0.30/kwh for electricity, thats a saving of $3/day. $10k/$3 = 3333 days = 9.1 years for payback. Still not where I need the prices to be to jump.

  • 

    Commodore64 on 01/09/2023 - 21:31

    +3

    You’re also assuming it doesn’t catch fire and you have to replace the house

  • 

    cook99 on 01/09/2023 - 21:35

    Don't forget the time value of your money over those years, would work out well over 10 years payback and it'll probably die or burn your house down in that time

    • 

      truetypezk on 01/09/2023 - 23:25

      +2

      I would say TVM and inflation would probably cancel out the effect of each other and you are still looking at 10+ years of payback (if that ever happens)

  • 

    cycloneaussie on 01/09/2023 - 21:39

    Your assumption doesn’t include grid pricing inflation, I doubt we’ll be at $0.30/kWh in 5 years or even 2 for that matter.

    I’m on the fence whether to jump on the battery train, but at $1k per kWh it’s becoming compelling.

    • 

      Hybroid on 01/09/2023 - 21:51

      +4

      What about battery degradation? It won't hold the same capacity in 5 or 10 years time for sure.

      Also what the impact on whole system may be if a single cell or bank become defective.

      Something to consider.

      • 

        dcep on 01/09/2023 - 22:30

        +1

        I would've thought domestic power storage is more forgiving / lasting , given people are using end-of-life EV batteries as home battery these days.

    • 

      adam on 01/09/2023 - 21:52

      +2

      Well I didn't factor in installation, I currently don't pay $0.30 (I pay $0.228) and I won't get 100% efficiency, so my rough calcs are enough to rule it out). Also, prices of batteries are likely to go down in the future so jumping too soon could be a bad decision.

      • 

        cook99 on 01/09/2023 - 23:57

        Agree with you once more!
        Prices will come down, and tech will improve.
        How many early adopters of solar panels wish they had the now standard 6.6kw setups instead of their 2-4kw inefficient panels?
        Early adoption is for the rich and/or stupid

        • 

          Slippery Fish on 02/09/2023 - 05:37

          +8

          @cook99: They got 44cents, pretty sure they didn't do too bad 🤣

          • 

            cook99 on 02/09/2023 - 09:51

            +1

            @Slippery Fish: Not every state had the same rate… And the phasing out varied a lot too…

        • 

          tunzafun001 on 02/09/2023 - 21:42

          @cook99: I got in early (2019) and got 13kw solar battery + 4kw solar system for $4k.
          Be close to cost neutral by now. Blackout backup being the bonus.
          Batteries are still at 100% capacity.
          EV battery in the same period is now at 80%.

    • 

      MakkhiChoos on 01/09/2023 - 23:31

      Where is it $1/kw?

  • 

    noisymime on 01/09/2023 - 21:48

    +3

    This doesn't even include the installation cost either, so that 9.1 years is going to end up around 11 at least I'd guess.

  • 

    dcep on 01/09/2023 - 21:54

    +3

    Was the big take up during initial years all thanks to government subsidies and honeymoon feed-in tariffs for this to make any economic sense ?

  • 

    sunnyii on 01/09/2023 - 22:00

    +2

    This assumption that you able to charge the battery to full 10kwh everyday.

    I would put a discount on rainny days and winter where the solar is at 50% capacity.

    Even with the inflation, I doubt you will able to get the breakeven in sub 5 years.

    So still a no.

  • 

    Hyena on 01/09/2023 - 22:20

    +3

    If you're still on a fixed rate of 30c you're doing pretty well. Most companies are pushing time of use plans now and it's not uncommon for ~50c kwhr in peak times which quickly adds up. If you have the vile demand tarriffs on top of that and run a few high current devices even for a few seconds (eg cooking dinner at night) your bill prices can rapidly get out of hand. Realistically for most people the spend would be around double your calculation (because you also can recharge it cheaper in offpeak times), so your repayment time is now halved. And if you're in a position to take yourself completely off grid that's another $1/day in supply charge saved. Then factor in if you have an EV, which you drive to work during the day like a normal person, you aren't actually taking advantage of your free solar generation. You're now chipping another ~ $50/week off your repayments in money saved on fuel. Obviously there's dozens of variables and it won't work for everyone, but for some it will. There's also the upside of guaranteed power if you're in an area where blackouts arent uncommon. But if you're someone struggling with a $200/month power bill, throwing 10k at one of these probably isn't a smart solution either.

    For reference: I've recently built my own 15kwhr battery and 5000w inverter and have taken my house 95% off grid. I have no power bills now as the trivial amount of power I do buy is offset by my excess solar export, and come summer I'll be in credit. It cost me around 6k to build and will pay itself off in fuel savings alone in 2 years. Mind you it certainly isn't for the aveage Joe to build, so that makes the above system for 10k actually a pretty good deal in my book.

    • 

      valkeris on 01/09/2023 - 22:39

      Would be interested what batteries you used. I am looking to go 100% offgrid with next house. Was looking at BYD home batteries but for 15kw for 6k - what did you use?

      • 

        Hyena on 01/09/2023 - 22:54

        +2

        Eve 304ah LiFePO4 cells. Cells were about $4500 delivered direct from China

        • 

          Mike444 on 01/09/2023 - 23:57

          @Hyena: Have you noticed any capacity drops in the time you've owned them?

          • 

            Hyena on 02/09/2023 - 18:40

            +1

            @Mike444: Not really. Theres some efficiency loss between charge and discharge in terms of monitoring absoulte power in and out and I also rarely charge to full or completely discharge. That habit will make the system last alot longer in itself

      • 

        booboo on 02/09/2023 - 09:32

        How would you do that? Get a sparky to wire it up upon build? What if it's cloudy for too many days in a row?

        • 

          valkeris on 02/09/2023 - 15:22

          +2

          @booboo: Booboo - yep, you get a sparky to install the system when the house is finished.
          The thing about solar is even on a cloudy day it still produces some power. The thing you need to do is design the system large enough that it produces enough power to charge your system from zero to 100% in about 6 hours full sun. This way even short amounts of full sun top it up quickly.

          If you are not grid connected there is no limit to the amount of solar you can have.

          The battery should be sized for 3 days of normal use. Eg take what your latest bill says you use in 1 day and x3 for the size of battery system.

          Also install energy efficient appliances and run them during the peak of the day.

        • 

          Hyena on 02/09/2023 - 21:04

          +2

          @booboo: Yep get a sparky to do the final integration. I have a subboard with essential power (which is actually 3/4 of the house) and an automatic transfer switch so if the battery goes flat or the inverter is overloaded it instantly switches straight to the grid with just a flicker of the lights. I can also charge the battery from the grid off peak (or in my case during an EV super offpeak rate for 8c/kw) if I know it's going to be particularly rainy or overcast the next day. I have a smart breaker connected to the AC circuit going to my inverter so I can control it with an app and program when I want it to run etc.

    • 

      booboo on 02/09/2023 - 09:30

      How did you wire that up to your house? AC coupling like a power wall? Did a sparky do it or was it diy? Sounds like making your own is so much cheaper than a power wall or the like - I got quoted $17k installed

    • 

      easternculture on 02/09/2023 - 18:34

      Im thinking of building my own solar fence with a battery like yours. I get about 7 hrs full sun in winter and 10hrs + in summer.

      How many cells did you need for your battery.
      Dont want to do roof solar as ill be renovating in a few years

      • 

        Hyena on 02/09/2023 - 21:15

        Solar fence ? That won't generate much as they need to be angled to the sky or even flat but not vertical.
        16 cells for LiFePO4 is a standard set up for a 48v system

        • 

          easternculture on 02/09/2023 - 22:14

          @Hyena: Apparenty solar walls and fences are a thing after i did a bit of research. But i could angle them at 15 degrees , just gotta look at the logistics of setting them up

  • 

    6079 Smith on 01/09/2023 - 23:33

    Did you account for the lost feed in tariffs of $1.10 per day as you’re exporting less power ?

  • 

    xyron on 01/09/2023 - 23:35

    This is the kind of simple analysis my feeble brain needed on the question of whether to get a battery. Thank you!

• 

  payless69 on 01/09/2023 - 21:42

  +5

  A good start.
  Will Will Prowse approve it?

• 

  Poombear on 01/09/2023 - 21:44

  +5

  Thoughts on whether home batteries become obsolete in the future, if V2G and V2H compatible EVs become commonplace? Rather put the $10k towards the EV instead, and they'll have 10 times the capacity of a home battery like this as well

  • 

    Loracks on 01/09/2023 - 22:02

    +1

    Need more vehicles to offer this but it'll be the way to go

  • 

    dcep on 01/09/2023 - 22:03

    The car needs to stay home and somewhat getting charged during the day ?

    • 

      Hyena on 01/09/2023 - 22:29

      +3

      Somewhat, but depends on your power plan. I've recently switched to OVO which has an 8c EV tarrif from midnight until 6am and 10c solar feed in. So it's actually cheaper to sell all your solar to the grid and then buy it back at 2c profit to charge your car after midnight. As long as you have enough juice in the battery to get you through the peak hours when you get home. Mind you the current V2H offerings aren't really enough to run your whole house. Good for a blackout and will run your lights and TV etc but you'd have to be pretty strategic with sequential single applicance use to cook dinner with it.

  • 

    samfisher5986 on 01/09/2023 - 22:41

    I feel like this is something people will talk about for the next 20 years but it will probably take 20 years to actually be viable.

    Electric cars barely have enough charge as it is, electric cars also can't afford to carry additional weight/battery due to this

    Your idea will generally only suit retired people who don't use their electric car for anything… where in reality they would be better off using a taxi/uber/car share.

    • 

      Kammi on 02/09/2023 - 08:16

      +1

      Depends where the car is parked, e.g. corporate multi storey carparks could be kitted out with basic chargers, with solar on these buildings it could work

      Your energy company becomes where you park

    • 

      try2bhelpful on 02/09/2023 - 08:23

      I would hazard a guess there are a lot of people it would suit. Between public transport and WFH there are a lot of people who don’t get in their cars all that often. In WA we saw some car parks where they had put solar panels as a “roof” over their car parking spots. Not only did this give shade but it could be part of a way for people to charge their cars whilst they are shopping. In inner city in Melbourne, even in winter and with some overshadowing, on average we are generating quite a bit more than we consume. With suitable storage we could be self sufficient. From our experience I don’t think the battery needs to be massive.

    • 

      star-ggg on 02/09/2023 - 09:37

      The tech is already tested at the consumer side. We just need more cars that support it.

      https://www.drive.com.au/news/south-australia-launches-bi-di…

      You have a point that that EVs are only make economical sense if driven long distances so an EV sitting all day at home most days isn't worth it even as a battery, but if EV prices continue dropping, it will become economical and ppl will adopt EVs sooner.

  • 

    netjock on 03/09/2023 - 15:51

    Nissan Leaf has got this feature for years.

    You know why they haven't enabled it? Vested interests.

• 

  MaxHashrate on 01/09/2023 - 22:02

  +3

  It isn't even that cheap considering tesla powerwall 2 recent discounted prices

  Tesla guarantees 10 years and more importantly 70% capacity with unlimited cycles if u use it domestically.

• 

  stunspore on 01/09/2023 - 22:27

  Would be interesting to see if a company does a package deal to include residential solar panels as well - capture the market with no solar panels as well.

• 

  Elephant on 01/09/2023 - 22:49

  This versus a generator for dealing with power outages? Obviously a battery is more expensive, but also gives you some $ return with solar vs no return on a generator.

• 

  cheekymonkey97 on 01/09/2023 - 23:45

  The only way I could justify the cost of a home battery is by starting an indoor grow house. And unfortunately I don't think I'll be doing that anytime soon.

• 

  oraserat on 02/09/2023 - 06:43

  +2

  Two points to consider
  1. You may buy a home battery for the ecological benefits (can't wait for the replies)
  2. There is the convenience factor in the case of power interruption.

  To counter buying a home battery, if you have an electric car this will be your home battery in the near future.

  Finally there is a company called "Amber". Basically they use your home storage electricity in the peak times paying a reasonable amount per kW .
  You then recharge your batteries from solar or buy back the electricity at a cheaper price off peak. Amber have calculated on income of $2,200 for my situation per annum. This figure blows the 10 year calculations out of the water.
  Possibly this system of smoothing the grid will become the norm.

  • 

    try2bhelpful on 02/09/2023 - 08:10

    +1

    We are waiting for the EV solution as well. We rarely drive so it will mainly be our storage unit. I suspect that the long term will be people having a small battery to tide them over when the car isn’t there and the EV doing the grunt work.

    Will look into Amber. Thanks.

• 

  try2bhelpful on 02/09/2023 - 08:37

  Once solar is installed the power generation is pretty much gravy. The equipment does need maintenance but the fuel is delivered, free of charge, for as long as the earth is viable. We don’t have the cost of digging fuel out of the ground, burning it in large facilities and dumping the waste. Once we get to a critical point in the generation the real issue with solar panels on the roof and the battery is that the price of grid electricity may well drop dramatically.

  I haven’t got the battery because I’m hanging out for the EV as a shortage battery but I put panels on the roof to walk the walk, as well as talk the talk. What impresses us is how much power we generate given we are inner city Melbourne with some overshadowing issues and limited North facing roof. Even in Winter we are, generally, generating more than consuming. If I had a rural property I would, certainly, be looking at solar panels. Once they crack the storage issue, which will happen now development is underway, then it will be interesting to see what the grid becomes.

  • 

    netjock on 03/09/2023 - 15:54

    The problem is people seems to believe solar panels are not useful after 25 years.

    Or as the government regulator making it so hard to reinstall old panels that may have only had 10 years of use (when people used to install 2kw systems as it was so expensive) and now they put on a 6.6kw the old stuff once taken off the roof is non compliant because they complied to an older code.

    • 

      try2bhelpful on 03/09/2023 - 16:54

      It depends on what you need and how quickly panels degrade. Our panels have a 40 year lifespan and we, already, generate a lot more power than we can consume. Batteries will smooth out the load. The current ability of panels is likely to cover the needs for the average household. Long term the power companies may well pay us to have panels on our roofs to create a suburban power grid. Imagine if we get the improvements we’ve seen over the last five to ten years projected into the future. We have a cottage industry of passive power generation aggregating into one huge generator station. Power so cheap it isn’t metered, just a monthly connection fee. It might be considered fanciful but no more so than the rise of the suburban petrol station when they were using drays to move petrol around the country for the first motor cars.

• 

  bennybaubles on 02/09/2023 - 09:50

  What about the elephant in the room which is the solar inverter failing 5 or 10 years down the track and when you ring up to claim your warranty the company doesn’t exist because they’ve closed down the business and started up under a new company name?

  • 

    ChickenAdobo on 02/09/2023 - 13:46

    +2

    Just like any other consumer company. Your kodak camera and nokia phone that you bought 6 months before they declare themselves bankrupt. How did their warranty process? That could also go the same for new home builder and having an incomplete home 2 years later.

    You have to do your own research with due diligence.

  • 

    netjock on 03/09/2023 - 15:56

    Depends on how much you paid for it. Fronius they will be around because at $2.5k long as there is enough people willing to pay. Chinese ones for $800, they won't be around. $1200 Chinese (Growatt, Sungrow etc) most likely still around.

    Problem is in 10 years do you still want a replacement that is the same or a better more updated one?

• 

  oraserat on 02/09/2023 - 12:34

  +1

  I forgot to say in my post above……with the batteries (I have two ) and the solar panels, I have not paid for electricity for some time. My neighbours latest bill with comparable electricity load are paying the equivalent of $2500 per year despite solar panels because they have no battery.

  If the Amber thing works out as they have projected I am $4500 ahead each year. (More if the price of electricity continues to increase).
  For those looking at cost/benefit of installing home batteries, it seems that the batteries (negating the initial cost of the solar panels) will pay for one battery within 4 years.

  • 

    ChickenAdobo on 02/09/2023 - 14:07

    Funny someone negging you for being a early adopter. If you have the money to do so. Better for your wallet and the environment.

    • 

      adam on 02/09/2023 - 16:10

      I negged… nothing to do with being an early adopter, thats fine. Its because the math doesn't add up. $2500/year savings simply due to a battery is not feasible, thats dodgy math. If they're paying $2500 per year without solar and you're paying $0 and you both have the same solar panels with the battery being the only difference… then their usage is not similar.

      I did the math above but the maximum you're going to save per year is 365 * (Your-batterys-Kwh-capacity) * (Your-kwh-electricity-charge). And there is no way that is coming close to $2500/year.

      Even if batteries allow you to disconnect from the grid you're still only saving another $400ish a year and still not even half way to $2500.

      • 

        oraserat on 02/09/2023 - 17:25

        They are paying $2500 with solar panels: (there seems to be a typo in your reply "without solar". I think you mean without battery) The difference is the battery: it is capacitor. They only make electricity when the price for kW is low : when they need electricity after sun light hours , they have to draw from the grid at a much higher price. We draw from the battery. Most days we have 40-50% of our battery capacity charged.
        There is no charge to us but to the neighbours they are supporting the grid during daylight hours but not after this. Nothing dodgy about my mathematics…this is simply the status quo. (I said very similar household usage: built at same times, same size, LED lights, swimming pools same builder)

        Now if Amber is true to their quote. additionally I will be several thousand dollars in credit each year (perhaps better than this as the quote was for one battery and I have two).
        The thing to understand is that the battery takes the solar input at the cheapest tariff time and then sells it back to the grid at an expensive time. You may be looking at 11cents per kW hour versus 49 cents per kW hour.
        (This is why our electricity bills went so much higher when we were given the new "smart" meters)
        Nothing dodgy here.

        • 

          adam on 02/09/2023 - 19:34

          @oraserat: But you're not with Amber yet right? So who's buying your power at 49c/KwH? AFAIK those rates were only available to people who put in and retained unmodified <5KwH systems a decade ago.

          The thing I have with the likes of Amber is that I don't want to spend all my time watching and managing my electricity & i don't want to turn my air conditioning off in peak times to make a few dollars.

• 

  ChickenAdobo on 02/09/2023 - 14:05

  I give my take on home battery storage. In the next 2 to 4 years soduim battery should be on a mass production run rate. Once achieved we can see 10kw battery like this on soduim chemistry selling above 7k.

  At the same time V2G rules and regulation should be starting ro be fully established allowing home owner to plug in their ev to the grid and standarised V2G cars should be appearing on the market with plenty of choices.

• 

  axcairns on 02/09/2023 - 14:22

  +1

  Just to be clear - one B500 battery is 4960Wh. This deal gets you a total of 9.9kW not 2x9.9kW

  • 

    cycloneaussie on 02/09/2023 - 18:58

    Yup - made it clearer, thanks

• 

  netjock on 03/09/2023 - 15:57

  Still too soon to buy batteries.

  Look at Tesla prices, in the long term prices always come down. They might bounce around a little bit but will always come down.