Breville Dual Boiler cheaper than David Jones Deal (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/807514 - @Paudius) if C&C at Retravision with RAC Member's Discount.
Breville Dual Boiler Coffee Machine BES920BSS $998 ($948 for RAC Members) + Delivery ($0 C&C / in-Store) @ Retravision
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LYang12345 on 25/10/2023 - 11:29 retravision.com.au (2102 clicks)
Last edited 25/10/2023 - 17:21 by 2 other users
Last edited 25/10/2023 - 17:21 by 2 other users
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Not sure why the downvotes? Surely there are some entrepreneurs on here that can split the difference in exhange for the number? Or all they all on the teet from IT firms and banks without any concept of imagination?
But that's WA only?
Why don't you try and report back? See if they refuse to sign you up for giving a non-WA address?
Ach! Just bought from DJs yesterday. Ah well, it was peace-of-mind insurance :)
Great machine, I've been running mine daily for 7 years.
How often do you descale? I have dual boiler and wasn't descaling enough apparently, had to take it in for warranty claim twice in two years. Checked the manual and let me just say I was doing it a lot less than recommended haha
Only Descaled once, but the water is far better in Melbourne.
Almost unanimously in the BDB facebook groups / communities it is advised to NOT descale this machine using the built in descale function. Very often creates an issue with the probes not detecting water levels correctly and burning out boiler I believe (someone may be able to correct me on the details)
If you don't use hard water (with calcium), you don't need to descale and probably shouldn't to avoid issues like you mentioned.
However, if you use Melbourne water, you'll probably get away without needing to descale for 4 years. If you live in SA, WA or QLD or anywhere with hard water and don't use proper calcium filtration (or remineralise RO/distilled), you'll be lucky to get 4 good years out of the machine if you don't descale annually. The boiler will start to scale up and the first sign will be steam pressure being weak/wet/inconsistent. Then it'll crack. At that point, it's cheaper to buy a new machine.
@Anders: Yeah that's an important caveat that I didn't mention, using good, soft water to start with to avoid the build up of scale to start with.
I've heard the same. If you use high quality water you shouldn't need to descale.
@Aguynamedlance: "High quality water" is misleading. For example, if you buy boxed spring water from your supermarket, and it's full of calcium, it'll be disastrous for your machine. Far worse than out of (most) taps.
DO NOT DESCALE: Happened to me. $550 later…..
I user demineralised water from Coles with 5grams of sodium bicarbonate to increase TDS to about 600ppm.
I had no issues descaling my machine every year for the past 8 years I've owned my BES920. People need to read the instruction manual properly it specifically says not to start the descale process until the machine has been off for 1.5 hours. The BES900 had issues with descaling but not the BES920.
Here’s my experience
The first time I got a clean me message, I went and watched tens of videos on different version numbers and how to identify etc
Descaling took between one and two hours
It didn’t remove the clean me message.At the end turns out the clean me is done via a tablet and takes 5 minutes
My shot count was around 230 shots 🤦♂️Yep, the 'clean me' is referring to a backflush with cafiza etc.
Clean me is just group head flushing, takes like 3 minutes or so.
For a dual boiler, the price point is extremely competitive, far cheaper then any other coffee machine with similar specifications.
Feed the BDB good scale-free water and stay on top of the routine maintenance it should last 10 years +. Most issues come from misuse or neglect from owners who don't know any better or simply don't care to maintain their machines. You cannot beat the BDB even at this price point for features.
Breville I believe made some updates to the internals to increase reliability this year. Spare parts are easily available and pretty cheap if you need to fix anything. It's not rocket science to work on these machines. There is a ton of online info/forums to help you mod/fix them if needed. If you don't want the hassle of fixing it if it goes wrong, buy a 5-year extended store warranty for peace of mind. One of the few times I would recommend buying the extra warranty.
Also, don't use store bought pre-ground coffee (yuk) Always buy fresh whole beans and allow a minimum of $300+ for a grinder
Is it recommended to let off some steam from the bdb wand once you’re done?
@HunterBargainHunter: I do. It's good to have a hand job once in a while and I help it relieve itself daily.
That's really my point, it's suspiciously cheap for its specs. I guess it seems to me that the features have to be regarded as a trade off for quality/longevity/ease of repair.
A single boiler rancilio Silvia is more expensive than the Breville dual boiler, why would you say it's 'surprisingly expensive'? A machine with an E61 group head usually starts at $2000 upwards btw
A Rancilio silvia will be much much more durable, however it's a single boiler. You're better off with a used high-end heat exchanger e61 machine for $1k.
$1K second hand if you're lucky.
I had bought and sold a few 2nd hand E61 machines myself in the past few years and a lot of them were very nasty. A lot of people don't really take care of their machine, feed them hard water, lazy on the backflush, etc. If you really want to buy one, better open it up and see if there is scale built up inside. I've seen scales, bugs, roaches and tons of nasty stuff inside.
I ended up with a 2003 ECM Giotto that has been sitting in someone's garage for a decade or so until it got picked up and restored by a coffee machine mechanic, and that is a good deal that you don't typically find without spending a lot of time and energy.
If you just want a peace of mind no fuss coffee machine, this is a good deal.
It's not a E61 head but it doesn't use small portafilter like some of the cheaper Breville machines. It uses 58mm portafiler.
Who cares about E61 head anyway? It just takes a long time to heat up.Wow. Then why do you want a dual boiler? The point of a dual boiler is for temperature stability in the brew boiler while you smash the steam boiler. But you don't want the most stable temperature grouphead in existence? That doesn't make sense.
You will get far better results from a heavy e61 grouphead with a single boiler or Hx than a dual boiler with a rubbish grouphead.
You MAY get better results if you let it heat up for 30 minutes and make repeat coffees. If you want a coffee in 15 minutes, and still want excellent heat stability, the Breville's more efficient group head will indeed outperform an e61 group head that was designed 50 years ago.
BDB has PID to control the temperature at the brew head. For the asking price, it performs perfectly fine.
I'm actually intrigued as to why you think temperature stability on BDB will be inferior to E61 because that's not one of it's downsides.
Thanks for an actual answer instead of smashing downvote because I insulted your Breville (which seems to be the most popular response here).
I previously owned a Breville and found the smaller filters finicky and the temperature stability pretty suspect. An e61 takes a long time to heat up because it has a huge chunk of metal there which develops excellent temperature stability.
It was also a shorthand way of asking whether Breville is going down the route of more industry standard parts or (like a lot of 'big brand' mass market coffee stuff) is annoyingly bespoke and therefore harder to service/repair.
Your getting down voted because you are making BS statements and comparing Italian machines to "a Breville" (not a Breville dual boiler which you have clearly never used).
To answer the other part of your question, Breville often use their own parts with the exception of the pump+opv which are standard Ukla and the filter baskets which are standard 58mm (even though you incorrectly label them as small and finicky). However, the massive popularity of these machines means that parts are easy to get hold of and cheap plus every service person knows them inside out.
Also: temperature stability is hard to beat with this machine
Well Breville did buy Lelit last year who are well known for their e61 grouphead Hx boilers but chances are they will carry these over to the Breville machines as they are different design philosophy.
Furthermore, having use. Breville Barista Express and upgraded to a BDB, these see world of difference with the latter performing very solidly and I would dare say comparable to a mid-range e61 machine. Just my 2c.
It's not a E61 head but …
E61 is simple and "old classic". But not the best. If you look around most machine out of most expensive ones are not using E61.
What does I mean? Probably nothing. :)
Just saying E61 is not an ultimate solution.Also (I sad in other comments but will repeat it here), Breville Dual Boiler got saturated grouphead similar to La Marzocco. (inspired by?) :)
"surprisingly expensive"
Find me a dual boiler with PID and programmable preinfusion, new, under 2k (protip: you won't be able to)
Yes, the features are nice, but it does say "Breville" on it. I find it surprising that people are happy to pay north of $1k for a Breville coffee machine.
I say that as someone who used to own one, which was ok after modding but absolutely pathetic compared to my current machine (an Isomac).
I do often wonder on OzB how many people have ever had an even moderately good cup of coffee. I am by no means an expert but I was amazed at the jump from Breville to a more serious machine, just in terms of shot quality.
Can't speak for anyone else, but i've been well into the espresso / specialty coffee hobby for a decade now and am friends with a few of the local specialty coffee store business owners. Have been to numerous cuppings, sampled extremely high grade coffee (90–100 score) so i'd like to think I have somewhat of an idea. The sort of gatekeeping / condescending replies you're leaving throughout this thread suggests you've got an unreasonable vendetta against a piece of kitchen equipment.
What you've experienced could be for any number of reasons, not including placebo or self-justification after making a large purchase, but at the end of the day when people like Lance Hedrick, John Buckman (CEO of Decent Espresso) etc recommend this machine as being the best value option below several thousand dollars i'm inclined to agree with them from my own experiences.
@NedStark102: It might be worth mentioning that whilst Lance appears to be impartial, he does work with Breville.
Saw his review on the BDB and it was pretty impressive for the price point, especially at this price point
@Paudius: That's true, from my understanding he has always had disclaimers at the start of those videos and the caveat that he can basically say exactly what he wants. If he had tried to get away with not mentioning it, only to have people find out after the fact, then I would be a little skeptical about how genuine the review is.
Which Breville model did you use before? I find that the recent models have all been solid in terms of function they provide, their grinder is a joke but if you're talking about espresso it does a perfectly fine job. It will get to 9bars and maintain stable temperature throughout the shot. You should be able to make the same shot on a breville compared to an Isomac or any other machine if you use the same grinder. Unless you're talking about pressure or flow profiling machines which don't come cheap then the breville would make a similar shot as a LM or Slayer at 9 bar.
If you think espresso machines make a huge difference in the quality of coffee you get, you are sorely mistaken. Yes they do make a difference, but once you get to a certain level, the law of diminshing returns apply. With the more expensive machine, you are paying mostly for better build, longevity, aesthetics, higher resale value and brand name. With those expensive machines you also need to factor in cost of servicing, which is very expensive and personally it's just another hassle and cost I don't want to deal with.
@caitsith01: And which Breville machine did you have? Not all Breville machines are the same you know?
Do you ever wonder why most people say grinder is the most important thing and to spend more money on grinder than on the espresso machine? Have a good think.@keejoonc: Yes, I am aware of the importance of the grinder. I had some fairly mid-range Breville, can't remember the model, but a favourite on coffee forums for modding. With the same (commercial) grinder it was still a massive step up to a more 'prosumer' grade machine.
Can you tell me what model toaster you used 10 years ago?
I can. Because I am still using it. :)
Although I don't care about it and don't brag about toast it produces.But I remember every single grinder and every single espresso machine I ever had.
@SickDmith: Interesting. People are wired differently. I can remember exactly what my old Breville looked like, but no idea of the model name/number.
@caitsith01: LOL comparing a toaster to a coffee machine. I have given you the benefit of the doubt so far, but now I think you are just trolling and trying to justify to yourself why you spent the extra money for your coffee machine. Ok let's play your game. Was your Breville a model with 58mm portafilter? If you say you can't even remember that detail then you have lost all your credibility.
@keejoonc: No, it had a much smaller portafilter. Hence my question which started this thread.
I find it bizarre that you think I should be able to remember the model number of a coffee machine I replaced years ago. I have actual stuff that matters to remember.
@caitsith01: If it had a small portafilter then it would have been an entry model which is not even comparable to BDB.
You don't even know what you used and yet you come here and try and bag the Breville brand as a whole? I'm sure most would think you are the bizzarre person, not me.
LOL at the downvotes. People here sure love their mass market brands, which I guess aligns with the name of the site.
I got an Izzo Vivi with PID for $2600. Absolute bargain since they're a great price at sale price of $2999 after RRP of $3400… but people on this thread wouldn't be able to see that.
Not entirely sure what you're getting at, feature set and mods alone make this a standout.
Just because it's not made of commercially available parts and comes out of italy doesn't make it cheap commercial rubbish, it just makes it stand out for the price.
I kind of agree with Ned's comment, you seem to have some kind of axe to grind here and it's pretty weird
Tell me you know little about coffee machines without saying you know little about coffee machines
Do these surprisingly expensive Brevilles have a real (e61) group head
Nah, It's got saturated grouphead similar to La Marzocco.
Great machine, shame the price just keeps going up and up….
These cost twice as much - or more - overseas. This is one appliance that Aussies pay less for than most parts of the world.
Yeah I'm just saying they price has continued to go up over the years, there's old deals on OzB where people got these for ~$500. I'm not saying this is a bad deal, I'd still recommend this machine to anyone.
I got my Oracle for ~$700 using JB HiFi cards, very happy with that deal. Kind of wish I had the Dual Boiler even though it's "a downgrade" because I don't use the shitty grinder and auto tamping that comes with the Oracle. Only thing I wouldn't give up on the Oracle is the auto-milk.
Yeah, the good old days when I bought mine for $600 are long gone. To be fair it's still worth it at $1500 if you had to pay it. After that I would be starting to look elsewhere
I sometimes wonder what I'd get if I ever upgraded the Oracle, but it's such a price jump to get a next level machine, especially if you want auto-milk (haven't actually seen another machine that has that). Would probably just replace the Oracle.
What you are paying for in that price jump is build quality, durability, refinement and looks. To some people, these things don't matter and that's where appliances like the BDB come into their own. I owned a BDB for over 7 years, 5,000 shots and enjoyed my coffee journey with it. It was still going strong when I sold it to buy an Italian E61 machine.
Personally, I am not interested in auto-milk steaming or auto-tamping features like on the Oracle. Nice as those features are I enjoy the hands-on process and ritual of the manual workflow every morning. Besides I can steam and texture milk better than the Breville can, although it does a half decent job. But that's just me. I can see the appeal of a press a button and coffee is made for people who are super time-poor or don't care.
Thoughts on additional warranty?
If you don't descale it, probably worth it haha. Might be worth anyway as these have plastic parts inside, other users say they last, but I reckon you could get unlucky and something breaks. It's not going to be like the Italian machines that are higher quality but worse features at the same price point.
Buy the additional warranty if you live in Perth, Adelaide or anywhere with hard water and aren't going to be on top of the routine maintenance. Better still, buy a Brita C150 finest kit https://fridgefilters.com.au/brita-c150-finest-kit to treat your water so you don't have to descale as often. Too much descaling can cause more harm than good long term in some situations.
Absolutely get a filter kit if you live in these places. It not only affects the machine but the taste of the coffee as coffee is mostly water.
Interesting, would you recommend filtering Melbourne water? I'm currently using a Britta jug for a Breville infuser, although I'm planning on eventually upgrading to a bdb.
Thank you!
Melbourne usually has pretty good soft water. Worth buying a water hardness test strips https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/shop/p/water-hardness-te… or one of those aquarium water test kits from the local pet store to test your water. https://www.petstock.com.au/products/api-gh-kh-hardness-test…
@solrak What's the downside of descaling too much? In what way does it cause harm?
Can slowly eat away at the internal components over time and you also run the risk of dislodging scale deposits that can clog/block up in other areas causing issues
@Solrak: Thanks, I always wondered why people were weary of it. I'm in Perth CBD and unfortunately the water here is horrible, so I'm going to have to do lots of scaling. I do have a filter on the kitchen tap, I'm wondering there would be benefit running the tap water via one of those Brita jugs with a built in filter in addition.
@bleeder: I live in Perth and have one of these plumbed into my fridge water dispenser https://fridgefilters.com.au/brita-c150-finest-kit Replace the cartridge every year at $150. Much better and cheaper in the long run compared to faffing around with water jugs
@Solrak: I have that but a different brand under my sink, costs similar, $75 every 6 months. I find after 6 months I start getting white marks where I pour the water into my coffee machine. Wondering if I used a jug as well just for pouring the water to the machine would the extra filtration help.
You've got me thinking, having it hooked up to the sink always seemed like a waste because half that water is just used on washing dishes etc. I'm going through filters much faster because of that. If I had a dedicated tap just for filtered water (e.g. built into the fridge [I don't have that]) I would go through less filters. Feels like it might be worth getting a plumber to install a dedicated filtered water tap. not sure what that would cost though….
@bleeder: Do you test your filtered water regularly? It sounds like you could be exceeding the life of the filter cart by the water volume passed through the filter. As an example, my Brita cartridge filter is rated for approx 900 odd litres for the settings I use.
A dedicated filtered water tap or a direct water line plumbed into your coffee machine (if your machine is capable of that) is a great idea. It's fairly DIY for the average person to do if you have a timber benchtop or overmount kitchen sink. You can buy a 3-way kitchen mixer tap (hot/cold/filtered) for a cleaner look. I couldn't go down that road easily because I have stone benchtops and an undermount sink. You really need special diamond drill bits to cut through stone cleanly.
@Solrak: I don't test it, I had a look online at buying some strips but the seemed to be too expensive, so I decided to just replace every 6 months which probably costs me even more money haha
Had a look last night and realised my benchtop or stone (or something) so DIY probably too hard for me, if it was timber I would give it a crack. We are definitely exceeding the life of the cartridge by using it for non-drinking purposes, hard to justify a few hundred to get a plumber to put in a tap though…
I've been using this for 5 years, originally $660. I put 7 years warranty on it and it just won't die.
nice,, thanks OP,
Did a search through previous threads on grinder recommendations… Way more complicated than I expected.
My circumstances are mostly 2 coffees in the morning but up to 4-5 when people are over. Is a decent manual grinder going to cut it? Counterspace is a premium so not overly keen on an electric grinder that lives on my counter if I can avoid it.
This is the machine for affordable yet high quality with a bit of a learning curve. You can get lower quality coffee for less effort and faster with something like a Bambino plus and save on bench space. As for hand grinding, your arm will hurt, but spending 200 on a manual grinder is like spending 700 on an electric one when it comes to flavour to those with discerning palates. Still you'll not catch me dead hand grinding 5 espressos!
A manual grinder is fine for 1 or 2 coffees but it isn't going to cut it for 4 or 5 people unless you like the arm workout. An entry-level electric grinder would be a Breville Smart Grinder Pro at $300. Does a serviceable job and has a small footprint. A very decent step up from the Breville would be the Eureka Migion range from around $500+. Small footprint, quiet, quicker and less coffee retention.
Breville Smart grinder FTW. Pairs nicely with Aldi coffee. :)
Based on my experience, I wouln't recommend the Breville grinder. Better to spend a bit more money and get something like Eureka Mignon. Not sure how much they go for from the espresso shop these days but still well worth it over the Breville grinder. I still have the one I bought sitting downstairs gathering dust for a few years. I really should try and get rid of it.
I handgrind a coffee every morning and afternoon and actually enjoy the process. (but I have a La Pavoni, so it's all about the process ;) )
4-5 cups on occasions wouldn't be too bad, but if you were doing that more than once a week, maybe and electric grinder would suit you better.I use a 1Zpresso JX S-Pro grinder btw and love it.
A Eureka Mignon will be a good choice. The Silenzio model is so quiet too. They're extremely consistent and even.
Got the Silenzio to go with my Oracle and love it. Eureka give amazing customer service btw.
Manual grinder will be a chore if you're doing more than a few coffees, especially if you're using lighter roast.
An electric grinder will make workflow so much easier and faster when making coffee for a group. If you're willing to spend breville smart grinder pro money I would suggest going for a fellow opus as that will give you much better grounds. If you can increase your budget then Eureka is a solid choice, varia vs3 is also another option.Unless you're very patient, a hand grinder won't cut it. Just get a cheap electric like eureka mignon manuale or, for a bit more, the eureka mignon specialita for the time dosing function (from espressocoffeeshop online).
Thanks all for inputs so far.
Considering stumping the cash for Eureka Mignon… is it worth paying the extra ~$100 for Alternative Brewing vs overseas with Espresso Coffee Shop? How does warranty/repair go?
I got mine from Espresso Coffee Shop. The price difference was well over $100 at the time, so wasn't a hard decision.
Shipping was fast. The Australian plug adaptor is a bit chunky, but other than that it's the same product.
I typically would prefer to support local business, if the difference is only $100 I'd probably grab it locally and give yourself peace of mind (not having to send overseas if something went wrong etc).
I've been very pleased with my Breville Smart Grinder Pro and I think it's perfect companion with the Breville Dual Boiler especially if you're just starting out.
I've only upgraded recently to the DF83 Single Dose grinder with SSP burrs and that's after seven years of using the smart grinder.
likewise I had smart ginder for 6 years its very good for what it is, splashed out on a Eureka Mignon last year and its another level again but 3 times the price
If this expires, it seems like Harvey Norman have matched - https://www.harveynorman.com.au/breville-the-dual-boiler-cof…
How long does it take, for someone reasonably experienced with these machines, from start to finish (including cleaning)?
I'm really time poor and have become accustomed to the very expensive fully automated coffee machines at work, meaning I can barely drink instant coffee without gagging these days.
That said, I don't want to spend thousands on a fully automated machine if it's only going to save me, say, 3 minutes per (double shot) coffee compared to a machine like this (if the difference is likely to be 5+ minutes though then I'd consider going that route).
Also, why RAC and not also eg RACV?
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Anyone have an RAC number I can borrow? Pm if you do! Much appreciated!