Are Property Gurus Always Full of It?

bargain huntress on 18/11/2023 - 16:33

There are people who claim to own tens or hundreds of properties, and sell their system or advice.

What is the moral and ethical situation there? On the one hand they are providing needed rental properties. On the other hand they are preventing people who want to buy a home from being able to do so.

If they make so much so easily why would they want to share? I guess if they genuinely want to help others? Or is it how they really make their money?

If they have a domino of debt, how will they survive a big change?

Surely the Austfalian real estate bubble will burst eventually? If you are living in your forever home, then when it does, who gives a f***. But investors are screwed right?

Financial

Comments

  • Pcosmic on 18/11/2023 - 16:46
    +10

    Yes, bubble will burst. Don't buy property.

    • AustriaBargain on 18/11/2023 - 17:24
      -2

      Absolutely. You can't add trillions of "on paper" value to existing properties each year and expect the growth to keep rolling in. The people who rent, who want to buy a home, or want their children to buy a home won't be happy about it and eventually they will organise their wishes, realise they have enough votes to swing state and federal government, and both parties will have no choice but to increase supply and density which will burst the bubble (except in Sydney).

      There just isn't enough existing properties for a majority of voters to own enough of them to insulate themselves and their family from the negative effects of the bubble. The math doesn't work out. There's not enough existing homes for 50% of voters to own four each.

      • Malik Nasser on 18/11/2023 - 18:48
        +13

        You are confusing price with value.
        The value of the properties have not changed (in general), yet their price has gone up substantially.
        If the amount of money in the system is continually created out of thin air, then the price can continue to go up.
        As new money is created, it devalues existing money in the system (and hence prices go up to adjust for this).
        Look at Australia's M3 money supply since 1969. Compounded money supply growth of around 7% (so money supply doubles around every 10 years, similar to properties).
        https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/money-supply-m3

        • Ocker on 18/11/2023 - 18:55
          +4

          It is not a question of "new money being created", rather inflow of money from foreign sources that is a major cause of price increases

          • Malik Nasser on 18/11/2023 - 19:00
            +2

            @Ocker: Prices are determined at the margin, so any increase in demand can drive up prices.
            There are numerous reasons for our current predicament, not just foreign sources of money (though it is one).

          • ssfps on 21/11/2023 - 19:06

            @Ocker: We create plenty of money ourselves.

          • legendary-noob on 22/11/2023 - 12:51

            @Ocker: I'm no economist, but if there was no new money and just inflow, our exchange rate would have been through the roof?

        • JIMB0 on 18/11/2023 - 21:11
          +9

          This is the correct answer and the reason there will never be a huge fall in the market. Sure at face value property looks rather overvalued today given that the rent doesn't cover outgoings, however markets are forward looking and rents never go down.

          10 years from now you can be fairly certain that property as well as share prices will be much higher. A certain way to lose is to sit on the sidelines.

          • AustriaBargain on 18/11/2023 - 22:40
            +1

            @JIMB0: What if all the states create an oversupply with new houses and high density housing?

            • JIMB0 on 18/11/2023 - 22:50
              +1

              @AustriaBargain: If you're talking about apartments then yes, they can and have fallen in price as it's easy to create more in any area. There's still going to be a floor to prices due to the price of land and construction costs.

              Adding extra houses to an established area is usually not possible. Hence they often hold their value. The only way to add more houses is to go out to the fringe of the Metropolitan area where no one wants to live anyway.

            • sackrace on 22/11/2023 - 08:21

              @AustriaBargain: Builders are already hard to come by, I don't know if there's enough capacity to increase new dwellings built significantly beyond current.

          • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 10:20
            +1

            @JIMB0: I've known 4th generations to complain how property is too expensive in their generation, and how good people had it before them.
            They've all been wrong, and I find it very hard to believe that this 5th generation is right this time.

            Also, I come from a lower-income family, yet everyone in those 4 generations have owned their home. It seems to me that buying property is the same as everything else in life, there are those that make it happen and those that only complain.

            • ssfps on 19/11/2023 - 21:01
              +7

              @SlickMick: Horse shit. Buying property was harder for gen X than their parents, and gen Y than their parents, and will be harder for Z as they are entering the market. The fact people have noticed this trend doesn't invalidate it.
              Hell, in Aus huge amounts of prime farming land were given away to people who were willing to work in. Sometimes those conditions were unreasonable but lots of farmland ended up being owned by those people.
              Later on, working and middle class families could buy homes on 1/4 acre with one income.
              We're now at the point where average earners in most cities are requiring two incomes to buy apartments. Sure, the rates may drop in the next few years - at which point prices price of entry for first home buyers will balloon further.

              • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 21:16
                -4

                @ssfps: no one gave my parents or grandparents anything for free, and they never would have bought a house without putting in an effort.

                Then somebody not much younger than me bought a house the first year out of uni, and his parents were no better off than mine. Unquestionably it was easier for us than the 2 generations before him in my little scope of the world. But he was smarter than me. I had to get married before I woke up.

                I'll bet his kids bought houses too because he would have passed on his wisdom i.e. don't waste money on things that aren't profitable. (Mine did - two incomes, but minimum wage retail workers.) There's a 5th generation on the way, and I have no doubt they'll buy properties too. And they won't struggle as much as my parents and grandparents because they'll be a whole lot wiser.

                Say what you like, but I'm basing my opinions on personal facts, and it's working for families that I know.

                • ssfps on 21/11/2023 - 19:08
                  +1

                  @SlickMick:

                  no one gave my parents or grandparents anything for free, and they never would have bought a house without putting in an effort.

                  Nobody said it doesnt take effort, but youre promoting the idea that it's all about effort, which is asinine. If effort == wealth the donkey would own a property portfolio in australia.

              • JIMB0 on 19/11/2023 - 21:58
                -1

                @ssfps:

                Buying property was harder for gen X than their parents, and gen Y than their parents, and will be harder for Z as they are entering the market.

                Yet plenty of people still manage to buy property through hard work and saving. Whilst others waste their money and complain about how hard it is.

                • ssfps on 19/11/2023 - 22:54
                  +7

                  @JIMB0:

                  Yet plenty of people still manage to buy property through hard work and saving. Whilst others waste their money and complain about how hard it is.

                  Irrelevant to the central point, and you've presented a false dichotomy - hard work doesn't equate to wealth nor saving, and being a spendthrift and "wasting" money doesn't prevent somebody from accruing wealth. Your vague point is correct, there is still a middle class and they can still afford property, good for them.

                  Ultimately the current system will only serve the elite, likely not even the great grandkids of the upper class will benefit. As the middle class continues to shrink and people increasingly subsist in stressful living situations, along with other ways the system is overburdened, social problems like crime will continue to increase. The only people that benefit from that in the long term are those that have such obscene wealth they can completely isolate themselves from the rest of society and protect their dynastic wealth inter-generationally. The current middle class are simply ignorantly complicit and trying to get their scrap of the dwindling cheese supply.

                  Obviously this problem isn't all about property, but property is an important part of it - an intersection of basic need for shelter and stability and its exploitation and the devaluing of currency by the banking cartel.

                • sackrace on 22/11/2023 - 08:24
                  +1

                  @JIMB0: This is pretty dismissive. My family are on the property ladder as decent earners and aggressive savers and it's still not easy for us to have a nice home in the area we've called home for years.

                  It is harder to enter the market now than in years past. Just because it's still strictly possible doesn't negate that point.

                  • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 13:37

                    @sackrace: Thats because you are locked into the mentality of living in the big smoke.

                    Mortgages arent the most important tax on your life, there are far bigger penalities of living in a capital city

                    • sackrace on 22/11/2023 - 16:14
                      +1

                      @CowFrogHorse: Work and family are relevant considerations tethering our family, and many others. Ruling out the main capitals for the working class is not a desirable income from an equality and a practical
                      perspective.

                      Previous generations were able to live in these areas, we're talking an apples to apples comparison. Property is less affordable than previously.

            • Drakesy on 21/11/2023 - 19:02
              +1

              @SlickMick: They have every right to complain when the system is in favour of hoarding wealth and storing it in houses, subsidising prior generations and pensioners while you get hit with the full brunt of tax. The current generation's first home buyers grant is basically nothing in comparison to what the boomer's received, they were saddled with a hecs debt, something the boomers were never hit with. To top it off they get to pay for their parent's and grandparent's pensions, something that isn't means tested against your house.

              How good!

              • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 13:39

                @Drakesy: The firsts home owners grant doesnt actually help first home owners, it penalises them twice, once because the tax payers have to pay for this, and believe it or not houses GO up because sellers think everyone has the grant… Be happy the goverment is not wasting money on this stupidity.

                • Drakesy on 22/11/2023 - 14:26
                  +1

                  @CowFrogHorse: As opposed to negative gearing that all the taxpayers are copping and the covid building grants which all the existing cashed up home owners received?

        • ozzieblue on 21/11/2023 - 13:21

          This is exactly the problem. Central banks don't count asset inflation so don't raise rates when the system is flooded with cash searching for a home.

          Even when inflation is persistently high as it is now, the RBA resists raising rates to curb inflation. Surely when the dovish European Central Bank has its benchmark rate higher than than the RBA, this indicates to me the RBA is erring on dovish and not doing an impartial job.

          • ssfps on 21/11/2023 - 19:12

            @ozzieblue: I agree, although it's worth pointing out that if the banking cartel hadn't lobbied for fractional reserves and the slope down to "fiat" fun-money, the interest rates wouldn't matter here, and low interest rates would benefit all us commoners. The only reason high interest rates slow down inflation is because some rich sociopaths spent a long time tricking the world into being allowed to print money out of nothing, and coupling that to money-lending.

          • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 13:39

            @ozzieblue: No the problem is the Australian government has opened Australia to the world economy and world rules which are shite and its a game not worth playing.

      • Brianqpr on 20/11/2023 - 09:24
        +1

        This will take time, as the over 60s own most of the property and won't be supporting anything that is likely to make it worth less. You're probably talking a generation before the swing power you refer to might be big enough to make a difference. And by then many of these people will have inherited property wealth themselves and might not care any more.

        Add to this that our economy is hugely dependent on property values remaining strong. The "wealth effect" that gives owners confidence to spend and the ability to borrow against equity to fund further spending. Successive governments from both sides have been very reluctant to do anything serious about affordability, other than pointless grants the value of which goes straight on to prices. The one exception was when Bill Shorten went to an election with a fairly modest plan to limit negative gearing. The media were all over him and the good people of Australia decided to give us Scott Morrison instead.

        Even with the recent steep rise in interest rates, values have held up and even increased. 500k new migrants per year will only fuel demand further.

        • ssfps on 21/11/2023 - 19:14

          And by then many of these people will have inherited property wealth themselves and might not care any more.

          This is a driver of increasing wealth inequality and classism, and I think you're right that it will only continue.

    • lilyesp on 18/11/2023 - 21:15
      +4

      I doubt it..think about this- the population of say melb or sydney is roughly 4-5million - population of los angeles and tokyo are like 2-3x that much…..generation'children will want to live near by population increases- so the desirable places will still continue to go up…anyway my 2 cents

    • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 22:10
      +24

      Same old same old…
      This conspiracy theory has been going around for years
      Is it wishful thinking or just jealous people that cant get thier act together?

      I got news for you poor buggers
      The best you can hope for is a mild correction
      And guess what?
      You just missed it.

      We are now on the cusp of the biggest property boom in Australias history.

      Why do I say that?
      1. Interest rates have peaked or are very close.
      2. Pent up demand has been forcing prices up for the last 6 months (already) in the face of rising interest rates …yes!
      3. The Albanese governement has opened the doors to the biggest ever immigration program in our history.
      4. Rents are skyrocketing as a result so justifying even higher property prices
      5. When rates start falling next year watch prices take off big time.
      6. There is no way building construction can catch up or keep up with this mass immigation so a property shortage is imminent.
      7. Cashed up investors and new immigrants are ready to buy

      So if property didnt crash during the COVID-19 lock downs there is no hope of it even slowing down now.

      So complain and critcise all you like.
      Sit on the sidelines hoping for a crash
      All the smart people are waving goodbye to you OP and Muzeeb

      Bye bye !

      • AustriaBargain on 18/11/2023 - 23:40
        -6

        When the NBN is finished and we all have gigabit or 10 gigabit fibre, and when we all have augmented/virtual reality glasses and content lenses, and self driving cars we can sleep in, wouldn't people be happy living in a tower hours of the the city? Their VR will give them any view they want, make their apartment look as big as they want, and their self driving car/uber will let them wake up wherever they want. Why would anyone pay three million dollars to live in an average sized house near the inner city?

        • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 10:25

          Yeah, when that happens there might be less demand for 4 bedroom lock up garage homes within 20 km of the city.
          Or if Australians can be convinced to live in smaller homes in more densely populated neighbourhoods, or to live in regional towns.
          But why should a new home buyer need to compromise?

          • Gdsamp on 19/11/2023 - 12:19
            +5

            @SlickMick:

            Australians can be convinced to live in smaller homes in more densely populated neighbourhoods, or to live in regional towns

            Yes we should accept a lower increase in standard of living compared to our parents, so that half a million people per year can come here from s******e countries
            Not to blame people who want to live in the best english speaking country in the world, but instead greedy myopic governments

            Big Australia and multiculturalism are scams on the avg australian to line the pockets of the wealthy and keep GDP line going up without any real advancement of the economy. Just keep digging holes and selling houses.

            • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 15:23
              +2

              @Gdsamp: I don't know about you, but my parents brought us up in a little cottage 90 minutes from the city.

              I'm glad Germans and Poms came out here back in the day or I wouldn't be here. I have no problems with immigration.

              I guess I could take another point of view and say now that I'm here no more immigration, and now that I have a home screw anyone else.

              • Bluto Mindpretzel on 19/11/2023 - 20:25
                +6

                @SlickMick: The difference is that the rate of migration during those eras was appropriate for the economy/infrastructure's capacity. Now we are just throwing as many bodies at a problem, so try to keep it all propped up. Essentially it's a mandated import of greater fools willing to pay the prices. All the while next to nothing is being done by the govt as they treat mass immigration as a free ride with next to no additional schools, hospitals and other infrastructure built to cope with it. There is no plan but for "growth" (which ends up being a per capita decline).

                On that note, anyone who claims Aus property is "strong" needs to consider the half dozen+ measures that have been employed to prop them up. A good recent example was a hefty slump circa 2019 (I bought then when my suburb had fallen 12% on average). What drove the slump? Simply a slightly more tighter lending crtieria as the banks were shitting bricks over the royal commission that never was.

                Turn off the immigration tap and things will not be skyrocketing now.

              • Brianqpr on 20/11/2023 - 09:28
                +1

                @SlickMick: Its getting the levels right that matters. It feels like the current very large numbers (500k per year is huge) are aimed at longer term pension funding, offsetting the ageing population issue and maybe tempering wage demands. But this is to the detriment of housing affordability as the new arrivals all want to live in the big cities that are already very expensive.

            • R4 on 20/11/2023 - 13:09
              +4

              @Gdsamp: This. The only sectors who benefit from our ever increasing immigration Ponzi scheme are universities and big business - and they don't have to deal with the downsides like the rest of us do. Multiculturalism has, largely, been a failure in the West - and the notion that we're a multicultural country is nonsense.

              Our immigration system is a failure. Both sides of politics are to blame and the fallout will not be pretty.

            • qwijibo on 20/11/2023 - 19:06
              +2

              @Gdsamp: Half a million? It's closing in on 750K this year, and I predict it will top 1 million after the 2025 election - no matter which party wins.

              The only way to keep propping up the economy is to keep bringing in exponentially more people, otherwise GDP will fall (per-capita GDP is already in recession).

              Remember, the number #1 job of any politician is to get elected; and to keep handing out free stuff to all the constituents to buy votes, they need the economy to be continually expanding, so more money can be borrowed into existence, which requires more borrowers/tax slaves. i.e. you need to keep bringing in more and more people.

        • JIMB0 on 19/11/2023 - 11:29
          +1

          Sounds like you want to live in the matrix.

          • AustriaBargain on 19/11/2023 - 11:34
            -1

            @JIMB0: Absolutely, I'd be the steak guy. And why spend so much money on a huge house and nice things when you can have them all in VR? Sure it would be nice to have them for real but realistically I'm more likely to "own" them virtually in my lifetime. And even then, I'd probably pirate them anyway..

      • ssfps on 19/11/2023 - 21:04
        +1

        All the smart people are waving goodbye to you OP and Muzeeb

        They won't feel so smart when the underclass with nothing to lose does a 10x.

      • Zoroaster on 22/11/2023 - 05:23

        As someone who just paid off a mortgage in my dream area, for many years, it didn't have to be like this. It's not right and this can't continue for much longer. Many couples with lower incomes/skills are locked into multiple decade mortgages and AI will absorb their job prospects long before they finish. We're getting railroaded into an actual dystopian future here. This is no joke. The majority of human output is laughable and when lots of people do not have a job, they're going to crush the rest of us, one way or another. So every country is going to be like South Africa with golf course fences and armed security keeping out the have nots. That's what my retirement looks like. You guys are happy about this or just unaware?

        • Juice-Wa on 22/11/2023 - 10:04

          Machines could have taken many manual jobs 10-20 years ago, but yet it's still yet to be seen. Where it does happen quickly is in sections where people overestimate their worth to the business, usually overpaid union workers. Mining drivers and Stevedores are especially bad for this, if you are highly paid for such a simple job and regularly take industrial action, then you have just provided the business case for your replacement. Patrick Terminals were sick of wearing the operational losses of repeated strikes, so on one strike they just automated a bunch of them and told them to get lost. Total cooperate Chad.

          Coal is also starting to move more into lean operations so hello automated earthmoving equipment, look into BHPs new equipment.

      • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 13:40

        Exactly and building more airports is nothing but a part of this stupidity in ruining the country.

    • Drpepper666 on 18/11/2023 - 22:21
      +3

      I've been hearing experts, aka internet commenters , saying this for 15 years lol

    • Ghost47 on 19/11/2023 - 02:03
      +2

      The thing is, it won't. The government won't let it happen. Housing is worth ~4x the entire ASX combined. The worst that'll happen is prices go sideways for 30 years.

    • Jules_d1 on 21/11/2023 - 10:36
      +8

      Average Sydney House price:

      1990- $184,600….Bubble will burst
      2000- $312,000….Yep, bubble will burst
      2010- $575,900….No doubt about it, bubble will burst
      2023 (Current)- $1,121,196 ….Dude, seriously. The bubble will burst. Just trust me bro

      • outlander on 21/11/2023 - 13:43
        +1

        1990 - massive improvements in productivity due to personal computers becoming mainstream
        2000 - china really kicks off as the manufacturing centre for the world. Lot of mining products to be sold, lot of corrupt money needing to be hidden
        2010 - Australia enters the decade as one of the few countries not severely impacted by the 2008 US financial crisis

        We've been pretty lucky. Only question is, how long do you depend on luck. The way our financial system is setup though, you're in for a penny and in for a pound, so 'not being invested' doesn't just mean not getting a mortgage.

        • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 13:42

          Wow you really bought the kool aid.

          Massive improvements in productivity ? What does that even mean ? WHo says this ? Did the average Australian actually gain anything from this "massive" producitivity ? Did they get more holidays, did the work week drop down from 5 days ?

          Who repeats this bullshit…

          • outlander on 22/11/2023 - 14:38

            @CowFrogHorse: You don't believe that personal computers fundamentally changed things?

            You should watch some documentaries or talk to some people over the age of 60. The world was completely different. Jobs that are now done with 1 person used to be done by 10 or 20.

            And to be clear, productivity rose, but the benefits weren't equally distributed. Most of it went to the top echelon. Who then reinvested the profits into "investments" like housing, which in part is why prices have radically spiraled upwards.

            • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 15:38

              @outlander: You completely missed the point of my comment.

              You are all jumpy and happy about increased productivity, but you forgot that we are humans first, not numbers in a spreadsheet. You post is full of bullshit keywords that ceos and board members speak.

              I have no idea why you would mention this…

            • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 15:41

              @outlander: Yes computer changed things but everything is still the same. As your last post to me , mentions the lay people do the work, and leaders at the top get paid for doing nothing.

              Then again half of all people in workplaces do basically nothing. Managers, assistants, HR etc, easily half oa ll office works literally do nothing. Even thw others who are suposed to be working also many do nothing or are so poor at their work it would have been better if they did not contribute at all.

              I see this and hear this all the time from family and friends. Im in software every day of my career i see lazy people, who do things so poorly we are constantly rewriting things because the last version is a pos etc.

      • tomlikesbeetroot on 21/11/2023 - 15:07

        So this is not even doubling every 10 years, not really a bubble then is it, more of a slightly under performing asset.

      • pandadude on 22/11/2023 - 00:37

        More likely Elliott Wave then bubble bursting.

    • whitepuma on 21/11/2023 - 10:49
      +5

      people have been saying "bubble will burst" for my entire life.

      I'm glad I didn't wait for it

    • The Wololo Wombat on 22/11/2023 - 12:36

      Sureeeee it willll… people who did not jump on board have been saying it for years.

      • Pcosmic on 22/11/2023 - 13:13
        +2

        This time it will be different

  • Muzeeb on 18/11/2023 - 16:47
    +23

    A lot of the articles you read with titles like

    I'm only 25 and have 6 investment properties worth $11.8m

    conveniently never mention their debt or equity ratio.

    • EightImmortals on 18/11/2023 - 16:54
      +11

      Or who their guarrateurs (sp) are. I've looked into a lot of them and there's not too many of them who don't have very well paying jobs or wealthy parents backing them somehow.

    • holdenmg on 18/11/2023 - 17:21
      +4

      Good to see people still playing Monopoly.

      I reckon if you stick with Pall Mall and Mayfair and get a few Houses or Hotels along the way, it will all work out fine.

      • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 10:58
        +1

        All it takes is a rail system to bypass that side of the board and you're screwed.
        Motels on the pov side of town is how to win in Monopoly.

        That said, I don't play by the rules. My aim is to own Park Lane or Mayfair and see what I can build there before the game ends.

    • AustriaBargain on 18/11/2023 - 17:26
      +2

      For a few decades now it was a solid strategy in most city areas, as long as you can keep paying for them the value just kept going up. Probably would have been better off buying gold or tech stocks though, except banks won't lend you money to buy those..

    • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 22:14
      -3

      As property prices sky rocket, debt to equity gets smaller and smaller my friend.
      Its the case of property prices go UP and income goes UP whilst debt goes DOWN, DOWN, DOWN

      If you are not in the property market now Muzeeb you NEVER will be mate.
      Spending too much time here on OB makes you absolutely nothing mate.

      You should spend lots more (productive) time going through the real estate sites looking for property to buy now.
      Instead of being critical of those that have done so already.

      • Muzeeb on 18/11/2023 - 22:24
        +3

        Don't worry. I've been in the market since 1995 and mortgage free for 11 years. 👍

        • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 22:31
          -3

          Good to know mate
          I assume you were smart enough to buy an investment property as soon as you paid off the "home loan"
          It would have more than doubled in the last 11 years

          • Muzeeb on 18/11/2023 - 22:35
            +8

            @HeWhoKnows: Had an investment property for 7 years. Sold it and PPOR to buy dream home and semi retire at 38. Investment property was a pain in the arse and was happy to sell. Property has been good to me. I'm not complaining.

            • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 22:39
              -2

              @Muzeeb: You got one on me.
              well done!
              I retired at 48 and doing quite well from my investment properties.
              But not living in a dream home.
              Just a great area and only a 20min walk or a 3 min drive to one of Sydneys most popular beaches

              • Muzeeb on 18/11/2023 - 22:50
                +1

                @HeWhoKnows: You got one on me. I'm not retired. Still got to work a couple of days a week for the next 15 years for super purposes.

                • HeWhoKnows on 23/11/2023 - 09:25
                  -1

                  @Muzeeb: Dont worry.
                  I do plenty of work too.
                  Just not as an employee of a business.
                  Rather for my own business and investments.
                  Im a bit of a handyman so can tackle most uncomplicated jobs.
                  As you have owned an investment property you will know what I mean.

              • ass3ts on 19/11/2023 - 00:37

                @HeWhoKnows: I have properties, zero debt and loads of hobbies including playing with 'supercars' and overseas trips several times per year, but I still don't feel like retiring. In saying that, I understand that some people hate working, and if possible at the earliest opportunity would rather choose to do…nothing?

                • OZKap on 22/11/2023 - 04:47

                  @ass3ts:

                  , I understand that some people hate working, and if possible at the earliest opportunity would rather choose to do…nothing?

                  Do you really have no hobbies outside of work? No endeavours other than earning money that you could dedicate yourself to if you didn't have to work 9-5?

                  I could think of a handful of things that when combined I could quite easily spend a productive 8 hours a day on. Got our garden, a dog, a volunteer org that I'd love to spend more time with, family to visit, home improvements to do. To each their own I guess.

                  • ass3ts on 22/11/2023 - 06:46

                    @OZKap: Not sure if you read the miiddle part of the comment you replied to, yes I do have loads of hobbies, maybe not gardening or home improvements, I pay people for those.

                  • CowFrogHorse on 23/11/2023 - 11:36

                    @OZKap: Let e guess your days are filled with sitting in a car or train commuting for hous a day and then working in between. After all that you have no time for a garden or walking the dog during the week ?

                    Maybe problem is your wasting too many hours commuting…

                    • OZKap on 24/11/2023 - 00:48

                      @CowFrogHorse: My commute is 5 minutes. I work doing something I enjoy, that makes an actual difference, working with people I like. I have time for all of my hobbies. If pay were not an issue, I would rather spend more time doing the things I enjoy more. My hobbies are more enjoyable than my work.

                • HeWhoKnows on 23/11/2023 - 09:28

                  @ass3ts: Nothing?
                  Just because you have retired from paid employment doesn't mean you do nothing.
                  I basically work for myself now. It keeps me quite busy.

                  But congratulations on making the most of your retirement.

                  I regularly go on holidays as well when my partner has the time off work.
                  Been to Thailand twice this year
                  And up and down the NSW coast 4 times for 3-5 day short stays.
                  Is that OK with you?

                  • ass3ts on 23/11/2023 - 12:47

                    @HeWhoKnows: Making the most of my retirement? I never said I 'retired', I enjoy my work and I still intend to run my companies for many years to come. Is that OK with me? I'd rather not pass judgement on your choice of overseas destinations :)

              • CowFrogHorse on 22/11/2023 - 13:43

                @HeWhoKnows: Sydney beaches ?

                Hahah you call that a beach ?

                • HeWhoKnows on 23/11/2023 - 09:32
                  -3

                  @CowFrogHorse: Best and most popular beaches in Australia.
                  And Ive been to plenty of them

                  • CowFrogHorse on 23/11/2023 - 10:52

                    @HeWhoKnows: You said it "popular"….and thats the problem. The beaches are FULL of people in the way.

                    Every other beach in NSW is better than Sydney for the simple reason they are significantly closer to empty. No car park problems, hell you can even walk down to the beach in peace.

                    With your logic i guess you think a road filled with cars moving at 5km is better than an empty road in the country.

    • Jules_d1 on 21/11/2023 - 10:38

      I'd gladly take that. Good on them.

      With inflation, debt gets cheaper and assets increase in value. If he can't afford all 6, cool, sell 1-3 of them and you're still flying.

      Most cannot strategise to that point and get stuck on 1-2 houses.

    • The Wololo Wombat on 22/11/2023 - 13:38

      Debt is amazing (if you can service it).

      Let's say you have 10m debt… with a 6.0% interest rate in a 7.5% CPI senario.

      1.5% value each year alone. That's 150k for free.

  • SBOB on 18/11/2023 - 17:00
    +10

    they make so much so easily why would they want to share? I guess if they genuinely want to help others?

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and stick with 'nope, that's not the reason'

    • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 22:22
      +2

      Nope
      These people are property spruikers.
      Out to sell dud property and negative gearing to unsuspecting people and sell them the accountant services and organise the finance as well.
      Dont worry
      They are making lots of money!
      But perhaps not from owning property

    • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 11:11
      +2

      I agree. From what I've seen they want $1000s for what they could have just shared for free.

      However, there are a lot of altruistic people out there: on forums like this, contributing to open source software, volunteering their time at soup kitchens, etc. There is the potential for someone to just want to share their love of property investing.

      I actually got the initial idea of how to build wealth in real estate through the free initial consultation from one of these guys selling the first offset account scams. (Offset accounts costs $1000s more when they were first introduced.) Decided I could do it without him finding the properties for me. I'm happy to share what worked for me… but not here coz just too much whining from those who hate anyone else doing better than them.

      • HeWhoKnows on 23/11/2023 - 09:36

        100% correct.
        Lots of "small time" thinkers, jealous of those that have worked hard and saved money to get ahead in life.
        Im happy to help people get ahead.
        Its up to then to life themselves out of their hole and make a commitment.

  • Drakesy on 18/11/2023 - 17:11

    Have you noticed how the number of perople spruiking property get rich quick schemes has fallen off after covid?
    Capital growth is pretty few and far between, banks are returning the same if not more than rents. I feel the economy is a rubber band waiting to snap.

    • coffeeinmyveins on 18/11/2023 - 17:37
      +13

      I feel the economy is a rubber band waiting to snap.

      lol people have been saying that for the last 20 years. "It can't go any higher!" "people can't afford this!" and what has happened?

      There is no certainty that there will be any sort of crash. there is no certainty that there won't be either.

    • HeWhoKnows on 18/11/2023 - 22:27
      -4

      LOL Drakesy
      So short sighted mate.

      Interest rates are at thier peak so you are not going to get more from them
      in fact next year rates will start going down again and so will your interest income…oh dear!
      They do not increase along with inflation over time unfortunately.
      Rents have only just started to go up and generally rise with inflation so you have inflation indexed income mate…forever!
      Same with property prices. they double (reliably) every 7 to 10 years
      cant say the same for cash sitting in a bank account.

      And as for the Australian economy, this mass immigration program will underpin it for years mate.
      And the banks are making an absolute fortune too.

      • Drakesy on 19/11/2023 - 00:44
        +4

        Perth went backwards 25% between 2016 and 2020
        Property isnt the sure bet that domain and realestate.com.au would have you believe.

        • SlickMick on 19/11/2023 - 11:29
          +4

          Totally agree. You can certainly buy dud properties, or buy into a tulip market like WA.

          I paid $250K a property 20 years ago that is only worth $350K today. I've lost money every year, and looks like I will never regain it. But then again, I have happy tenants who might be living in their car otherwise, so I'm good. Could def have done better in the stock market (or even the bank) with that one.

          People were paying 3x the previous market value in central Qld when projects were on: people were renting out spare bedrooms, everyone with a decent sized block put a battle-axe property behind them. Anyone who bought at those levels (and Perth in your example) had to know it was for short term income and they would be taking a capital loss. After the projects ended it was easy to buy a house for 50% what the previous owner paid.

          I was told properties doubled in price on average every 7 years, that seems a bit ambitious at 15% growth - everyone would be doing it for that. 10 years would be 7.5% annual growth. Given that you'll be making a loss for a few years until it's positively geared, no one would invest in property and expect less than that.

          So long as Aussies want big homes close to cities, I think we're okay. We don't seem to want the cheap, dense accommodation other countries have succumbed to.

          • HeWhoKnows on 19/11/2023 - 20:30
            -3

            @SlickMick: Backs up my comments about who invests in Perth?
            Drakesy thinks its EVERYONE

            LOL LOL LOL

          • ssfps on 19/11/2023 - 22:58
            +2

            @SlickMick: I know somebody that bought a $950k property in a mining town in WA at the peak, then sold for $180k when most of the local mines went into maint mode. Ouch.

        • HeWhoKnows on 19/11/2023 - 20:14
          -2

          Who invests in Perth?
          But its going gang busters now

          property is a long term investment my friend.
          You dont buy to make an instant killer return

          • Drakesy on 19/11/2023 - 20:18
            -1

            @HeWhoKnows:

            Who invests in Perth?

            Pretty much everyone right now?
            Investors fcuk up a market and move onto the next when no one can afford it anymore.

            Also stocks have Beaten property for the last 10 odd years

            • HeWhoKnows on 19/11/2023 - 20:25
              -6

              @Drakesy: You have a very poor attitude to investors.

              Typically home owners get in first and start driving up prices.
              Then investors take note and follow.
              In fact many investors have been selling out of the property market over the last 12 months.

              Rising prices benefit EVERYONE who owns a property, but particularly all levels of government that also profit from rising property values.

              Hence all property owners contribute to the national tax base, but particularly investors.
              They also make it affordable for people to live where they want to.

              As for investing in Perth?
              probably only Perth locals.
              If it was EVERYONE then Perth would have the highest property values

              • HeWhoKnows on 19/11/2023 - 20:28
                -4

                @HeWhoKnows: You poor thing Drakesy
                Obviously a very frustrated property buyer mate, according to your negative comments
                Dont take it out on me for spelling out the facts

            • rekke on 05/12/2023 - 17:21
              -1

              @Drakesy: Stocks are not purchased with leverage, though. An 8% return on 900% of your capital (90% LVR loan) far exceeds a 10% return on 100% of your capital

              • Drakesy on 05/12/2023 - 18:28

                @rekke:

                • 8% return @ 6% interest rate = 2% return, with tax is barely breaking even though?
                • rekke on 05/12/2023 - 20:22
                  -1

                  @Drakesy: Math doesn't check out lol. You seem to have forgotten about rental income which generally pays for the entire interest cost? Moreover debt decreases with principal repayments and inflation, while the asset compounds annually each year.

                  • Drakesy on 05/12/2023 - 20:55

                    @rekke: In that case
                    Its a 5.5% return on a 6% mortgage - strata fees, rates, income tax and property management.

                    Is that better?

                    Oh wait it's negatively geared so you'll be putting more money in than getting out.

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