So Channel 7 did a Spotlight the Great EV Con.
What do OzBargainers think?
When you bought your EV was environment and social a concern?
How are you finding depreciation and insurance costs?
Waiting for ABC media watch to do a counter segment.
Spotlight The Great EV Con - What Do OzBargainers Think?
dasher86 on 07/04/2025 - 21:26
Last edited 08/04/2025 - 09:52 by 1 other user
Last edited 08/04/2025 - 09:52 by 1 other user
Comments
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Renewable energy is a meme, it's the biggest scam in the last 20 years to grace the earth & when you say EV's are not as wasteful over their lifespan thanks to it, that's what's really disingenuous because their lifespan is 10% of an ICE vehicle, of which there are still plenty of from the 1970's, 80's & 90's.
As far as mining goes, we can dream of the day when ALL the heavy mining equipment is powered by huge batteries, although I bet they'd still need huge diesel generators to charge them & 100% failsafes for the gigantic batteries that may suffer from thermal runaways that explode and catch fire, then burn for a week because they can't put them out.
But sure, no one, not even Chyna isn't cutting corners anywhere to try & save a buck in these financially complicated times….
Renewable energy is a meme, it's the biggest scam in the last 20 years
How so? Solar and wind work. They are cheaper than coal and other alternatives.
when you say EV's are not as wasteful over their lifespan thanks to it, that's what's really disingenuous because their lifespan is 10% of an ICE vehicle, of which there are still plenty of from the 1970's, 80's & 90's.
Modern batteries are lasting comfortably over 250000km with more than 80% capacity remaining. Plenty ICE vehicles will not make it that far without significant maintenance. Once they are over about 10y or 200,000km ICE are often not economical to repair.
We will get to a point where battery replacement is as common as replacing a transmission or engine. Sure it wont be cheap, but same for ICE. Getting a wrecker motor will be replaced by getting wrecker batteries
As far as mining goes..
Plenty of mine sites installing wind and solar and running EVs because the investment is more economical than buying millions of litres of diesel every year. Once installed the energy source is fixed price and not at the whim of the oil cartels. Will they have diesel generators? Yes, but as a backup.
@Euphemistic: Sounds like you were sold & whole heartedly bought the green meme. The footprint, not to mention the loss in transmission which there isn't much of is ridiculously high. Those wind turbines out at sea seize up from the salt in the air & then they can't recycle the giant steel propellors & towers which are collected & left in fields. The so called recycling of solar panels is a joke as it negates plenty of what it cost the environmental processes to manufacture then supposedly recycle but the chemicals involved can't be reused & have contaminated much of the materials.
Once a battery depletes past the 80% mark there's a serious downgrade in performance, when ICE vehicles have their engines & transmissions reconditioned that usually means new parts in an old motor or gearbox, so your theory of getting a wrecker battery is moot because replacing cells & chemicals in a battery is not the same as replacing pistons & glow plugs in a diesel motor which in most cases will perform for 500,000Km's.
Sure mining sites have wind & solar to offset their diesel costs so they're not beholden to the oil cartels, but they're just submitting to the renewables cartels in the process and will flip & flop between the two energy providers depending on weather & cost which are both unpredictable.
I know people want to live in an electric world & yes, some of the most polluted countries out there are petrol powered, but the technology you're talking about is much further away than you think thanks to the powers that be are making too much money from the current energy rorts & still haven't worked out how to legislate & monetise the next lot of new tech to benefit their investment portfolios, instead of treating it economically & environmentally.
The footprint, not to mention the loss in transmission which there isn't much of is ridiculously high
What loss in transmission?What does that mean? Distribution of electricity is lossy however its made. Having more wind and solar farms in more locations is better than trying to send it from one massive power station all over the countryside.
Once a battery depletes past the 80% mark there's a serious downgrade in performance,
So what? The vast majoirty of cars do under 100km a day. 80% of range is still fine for most commuters and most cheap car buyers. For everyone else, theres still petrol.
but the technology you're talking about is much further away than you think thanks to the powers that be are making too much money
The technology is here and now. It works. I do agree that its money keeping us on fossil fuels - along with misinformation - that you seem so keen to believe. Theres plenry of invesmnet money to put into wind and solar but the fossil fuel shills keep trying to prevent us from building it.
What loss in transmission?What does that mean?
Sounds like you've got some internet research to do & if you find the correct information you'll read that loss in transmission is up to 50% which isn't economical. Also, as Michael Ruppert said over 15 years ago : "Electricity is not an energy source, electricity is generated by burning or using some other kind of energy".
The vast majoirty of cars do under 100km a day. For everyone else, theres still petrol.
Great way to contradict yourself & tell me you live in a city without telling me you live in a city.
The technology is here and now.
No it really isn't, another 25-30 years & it should be much better…maybe.
Sounds like you've got some internet research to do & if you find the correct information you'll read that loss in transmission is up to 50% which isn't economical.
Right. The transmisison loss for electricity that still apllies to coal or gas or nuclear or whatever else makes the sparks? You seemed to state as if it was something that applies to 'new renewables'. Its purely related to how gar the electeiciry goes from whwre its generated. You know what helps with tramsnission loss? Local produxtion. You know what helps with local production? Small scale remewables.
It doss not change the fact that a wind turbine or solar panels are significanlty cheaper to build and run than coal, gas or nuclear.
Also, as Michael Ruppert said over 15 years ago : "Electricity is not an energy source, electricity is generated by burning or using some other kind of energy".
Another 'scary fact' thats a ridiculius quote from someone that knows tha ebergy cannot be created. Everyone whos been to highschool should understand that. You know what 'other kind of energy' can create electricity? Wind and sun, water flowing (hydro) and these create no waste to turn that energy into electricity, unlike burning stuff.
No it really isn't, another 25-30 years & it should be much better…maybe.
While i dont deny that in 25-30 years tech will be better, it absolutely is here and now. Theres a reason we are building wind and solar farms now. Theres a reason so many aussie houses have solar panels. Its cheaper than alternatives and it works.
Great way to contradict yourself & tell me you live in a city without telling me you live in a city.
My comment there was aimed at older cars. Plenty of current model vehicles will be available in 10years for people who want more than the range of an EV. But the point still remains that the vast majority of cars still don't do over 100km per day.
Plus, a new study has found that the expected life of modern EV batteries is 40% higher than the current 250k km expectations when the EV undergoes 'normal- usage. That is, occasional full discharges and fast charges and regular slow charge and average daily range of under 100km.
new renewables
Ah so it's the "new renewables" even though you just said loss applies to all types including coal and gas trying to convince me loss doesn't also happen with local production of "new renewables". Unfortunately loss is significantly more with wind and solar because weather is unpredictable at times.
Another 'scary fact' thats a ridiculius quote from someone that knows tha ebergy cannot be created
Here you go pal, this is why your EV fantasy is just that, a fantasy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjOdELXTGiw
Theres a reason we are building wind and solar farms now
If you honestly believe tearing out acres of trees for solar panels and building giant concrete plinths in the ocean disturbing & killing the sea life because the turbines are too noisey not to mention the farmers don't want them on their land, I don't think this discussion is worth continuing & no, the technology is not here now, you're just kidding yourself.
But the point still remains that the vast majority of cars still don't do over 100km per day.
There's plenty of cars doing more than 100Kms per day, if there wasn't the people that carry on about EV's being green wouldn't make so much noise, either that or they're heavily invested in renewables & are just trying to inflate their investment portfolios.
Plus, a new study
The problem is that it's just a study, it's not real world plus electricity can be very unreliable in those real world conditions, think 40 degree day etc.
Honestly, I'd like an EV but the tech really isn't there yet & with the way power is being priced, batteries being pushed as the new normal in homes because now the government wants to charge people to feed back into the grid from their solar panels. So it's the never ending chase of charging a battery, from another battery & so on whilst getting slugged by electrify companies for the privilege.
Ah so it's the "new renewables" even though you just said loss applies to all types including coal and gas trying to convince me loss doesn't also happen with local production of "new renewables". Unfortunately loss is significantly more with wind and solar because weather is unpredictable at times.
I only said 'new renewabkes' becasue it appeared you were being disingenuous poitning at losses for renewables, when losses apply to transmission of electricity. Doesnt matter what makes it, ghe further you oush it, the less you get at the end. Its physics. The weather being variable does not affect losses, it affects generation.
Here you go pal, this is why your EV fantasy is just that, a fantasy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjOdELXTGiw
Sure, we use oik for plastics and tyres and stuff. So we will still drill it. Thats fine. But once weve made those things we can recycle then. Burning oil is dumb because its gone after using it once. There are already places that runntheir electricity on 100% renewables and dont burn any oil.
We dont have to burn oil to make electricity or make cars go. We can and do make electricity from other sources.
Honestly, I'd like an EV but the tech really isn't there yet & with the way power is being priced
What part of the tech is not there according to you? Plenty of EV owners, plenty of market for them.
it appeared you were being disingenuous poitning at losses for renewables
See this is the problem with the "renewables crowd", they think you're not being honest when they're not being honest which makes it even more difficult to have a discussion with them.
When an EMF is pushed over a distance it's called "voltage drop", your description "physics" is very vague & awfully basic. The biggest problem with wind turbines & solar panels is because the weather is unpredictable & on a day with heavy rain the power generated is considerably less & that same voltage drop is applied to that & even less energy is transmitted. This doesn't happen with diesel generators, diesel goes in, generator runs, produces power, at consistent rate, no matter what the weather is doing.
But once weve made those things we can recycle then. Burning oil is dumb because it's gone after using it once. There are already places that runntheir electricity on 100% renewables and dont burn any oil.
The recycle & places that run on 100% renewables is a meme, a bad joke if you will. A ton of components in the automotive industry still use so many oil based products it's ridiculous, not to mention those machines doing the recycling…you guessed it, run on oil based products & fuel. You're being lied to & shouldn't be swallowing that garbage.
We dont have to burn oil to make electricity or make cars go. We can and do make electricity from other sources.
That's right & again as Ruppert said : "Electricity is NOT an energy source, electricity is generated by burning or using some OTHER kind of energy".
Did you forget about that in my earlier post or is it a bit hard to understand?What part of the tech is not there according to you?
The range, the charging times, the build quality & most importantly, the battery life. It's such a shame that this technology has to be dribbled out over decades so a group of wealthy people can make a truckload of money.
This doesn't happen with diesel generators, diesel goes in, generator runs, produces power, at consistent rate, no matter what the weather is doing.
All the time requiring refuelling, oil changes and probably a bunch of other maintenance. Not to mention being noisy and smelly. The amount of energy used to get the diesel to the generator is huge and is conveiently omitted when fosisl fuel lovers carry on about how good iCE generators are.
There is a reason most remote locations install solar and batteries nowadays. Its cheaper, quieter, fume free and virtually maintenance free. Yes, maybe they'll have a backup generator but the won't generally want to use it because it costs too much to run.
Renewable electricity production works. Its been proven. Its cheaper and faster to install than all other alternatives. If you say otherwise youve been watching too much fox news and havent donenany more research than being lied to by your social media algorithms.
Anyway, im out. Keep your head stuck in the sand, it must be warm in there.
And for the record, check who is getting the down votes.
@scooba: not sure where you get the confidence to sprout so much disinformation. there are studies coming out of Stanford showing new gen EV batteries have as much as 750k lifetime kms in them. 750k. good luck finding an ICE that can do half that without a rebuild and thousands in costly maintenance
https://theconversation.com/electric-vehicle-batteries-can-l…
Stanford.
Ah yes Stanford, the pinnacle of universal truth who're not influenced by the renewables lobby in any way.
750.000Kms is great, but diesel engines can go for 1MKms with their all their services. The range isn't there for EV's & for 15 minute cities their great, but for long trips it's still not as economical as a diesel VW Golf driving Sydney to Brisbane on 1 full tank not to mention a lot of planning where & when to charge an EV, plus the time consumed that it takes to charge on an interstate trip vs a high flow diesel bowser that can fill a 100+ litre tank in minutes.
EV tech just isn't there yet. Unless I'm mistaken and they run on unicorn dust & love now?
@scooba: yeah because the oil/ICE industry is unbiased with no interest to safeguard and had absolutely nothing to do with the hit pieces in the media. I'll take a peer reviewed article from Stanford over those any day, or your words for that matter.
750.000Kms is great, but diesel engines can go for 1MKms with their all their services. The range isn't there for EV's & for 15 minute cities their great, but for long trips it's still not as economical as a diesel VW Golf driving Sydney to Brisbane on 1 full tank not to mention a lot of planning where & when to charge an EV, plus the time consumed that it takes to charge on an interstate trip vs a high flow diesel bowser that can fill a 100+ litre tank in minutes.
I suppose if I said there are 1mil KMs EV batteries you'd just say there are engines that have done more as well? when was the last time you saw a diesel engine that did a 1mil? They would need to be maintained very well and likely rebuilt during its lifetime which costs $$$ whereas EV battery requires zero upkeep or maintenance. FYI the new BYD batteries already can be charged within a few minutes, and advances in battery tech, solid state batteries will only get better. You can put your head in the sand all you like but the world will move on without you and your dinosaur juice.
@V2L: No I wouldn't say a diesel engine would do more, I don't need to stretch the truth like the renewable cartels.
Yes I did already say for a diesel engine to make 1MKms it would need ALL is servicing including the very important & major services at 100, 250, 500 & 750,000. It seems you're confusing a diesel engine which has new parts installed with a battery which can't have its cells or chemicals replaced once it's depleted & needs a whole new battery. Yes my diesel engine might need new pistons or crankshaft, but the block & heads can be machined & the gaskets can be replaced, your battery doesn't have parts that can be replaced, only recycled & replaced by a whole new battery.
FYI the new BYD batteries already can be charged within a few minutes, and advances in battery tech, solid state batteries will only get better
I wouldn't trust BYD with supercharging, because y'know, when you put a battery under an extreme load it can catch fire when you're made by a company that is based in one of the worlds most polluted countries & doesn't have a great deal of conscience where it sources its commodities from & how clean they are.
At least you're honest and admit the tech will only get better & isn't there yet, I too hope to see the day when it's released.
Yes my diesel engine might need new pistons or crankshaft, but the block & heads can be machined & the gaskets can be replaced, your battery doesn't have parts that can be replaced, only recycled & replaced by a whole new battery.
what absurdity is this argument, yes correct, as you say there's nothing to replace or require maintaining in an EV, thank you for making the point.
for the cost of maintaining a diesel engine >1mil I can buy multiple battery replacementsI wouldn't trust BYD with supercharging,
tell me you have no clue about EV without telling me..
alright guys move along that's as much as we need to see to know you have no idea
as you say there's nothing to replace or require maintaining in an EV
You missed the point, you can't maintain a battery because you can't replace the individual cells or the chemicals, nice attempt at cherry picking my comments though & tell me you know nothing about batteries without telling me you know nothing about batteries.
alright guys move along that's as much as we need to see to know you have no idea
Exactly right, you have no experience with ICE engines & are trying to make out that it's better to replace an entire gigantic battery vs changing spark plugs, oil & oil filter.
It's still 2025 pal, not 2045, even though you want it to be.
@scooba: woosh
you can't maintain a battery because you can't replace the individual cells or the chemicals
yes, because you don't need to?
@Euphemistic: Now that I'd like to see, someone pulling the individual cells out of a battery, replacing them with new ones.
@scooba: Here's a video of replacing a 2-cell module in a Nissan Leaf battery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yOBNmqqziI
You can replace a single cell, a small number of cells in a module, or a large module of many cells rather than replacing the entire battery. It all dependings on the factory battery configuration.
I don't think there's any modern BEV batteries that are all in one single module. But even in a Tesla, notorious for being more difficult than most, the battery is divided up into 4 individually replacable modules.
@klaw81: That video of them replacing the module was great, unfortunately they had to replace a battery module, which is a battery that belongs in a battery "pack". So you can't replace a "single" cell for two reasons which are, batteries aren't designed that way and once a cell is dead, its "dead", no recycling or reusing it or the chemicals within it.
The only option is disposal & sure, they can drain they chemicals out of it & strip it, but those components aren't directly going back to battery factory to make new batteries, they need to be processed a number of times before they have a remote chance of being "reused".
Generally speaking it would be rare to have a battery module fail, so realistically the entire battery will need to be replaced & I'm guessing if the guy in the video paid ￡700 which is just under $1500 for that cell replacement, an entire battery would be a hell of a lot more.
It's a shame most people don't understand batteries and their workings & think EV's don't contribute any waste & run on fairy dust 'n love.
Thanks again for that video, great stuff👍🏻.unfortunately they had to replace a battery module
As I said in my previous post, that module only contains 2 cells in that particular model. This is proven by the voltages they're measuring with the multimeter. That's pretty close to individual cells.
There's a video somewhere of a Youtuber guy showing the process of replacing individual cells in a Tesla pack, but it was a very difficult task and unlikely to be financially viable….I can't remember the name of the channel but I'll keep searching.
once a cell is dead, its "dead", no recycling or reusing it or the chemicals within it.
Those modules can be and already are being recycled. In fact, whole battery packs with hundreds or thousands of cells can be recycled in a manner that recovers 98% of the materials. There's a great Youtube video of that process too, if you want to see it. The raw materials extracted by the process are sent straight back to the battery manufacturer for reuse.
Generally speaking it would be rare to have a battery module fail
It's far more common to have a single cell, or a small cluster of adjacent cells, fail rather than an entire module or battery pack. This is usually because of a physical fault during assembly causing excess electrical resistance, or a hot point where a cell doesn't have proper temperature regulation for some reason.
Replacing a module is relatively quick and easy, and usually considerably cheaper than purchasing a whole new pack. Replacing an entire battery pack is nearly always either due to a serious manufacturing fault, or a violent collision.
Statistics suggest that if you exclude the early Nissan Leaf, which is a known bad design without proper cooling leading to premature failure, 99% of EVs made in the last 15 years still have their original battery pack.
if the guy in the video paid ￡700 which is just under $1500 for that cell replacement, an entire battery would be a hell of a lot more.
It will vary from model to model, but I know I can get an entire 2nd hand battery pack for my car for less than $5000 at a local wrecker, with less than 30,000km on it.
Fitting an entire battery pack is actually super easy with basic tools and a hoist. Disassembling a battery pack to replace cells or modules is far more complicated, technical and labour intensive.
It's a shame most people don't understand batteries and their workings
It's a shame your attitude is so superior, considering how wrong you've often been in this thread. Perhaps you could consider the possibility that there are lots of things you don't actually understand well at all.
think EV's don't contribute any waste & run on fairy dust 'n love.
Literally nobody thinks that. What a silly strawman.
That's pretty close to individual cells
That's right, close, but they're not opening up the module to replace the cells are they, because its a sealed unit.
recovers 98% of the materials
Yeah, sure it's 98%. Do you have any idea what battery acid is or chemicals that are used that make up that formula of acid & what it does to those cells? If you did you'd know that recycling is no where near 98%.
It's far more common
This is usually because of a physical faultSo by what you're saying is the failure rate of battery manufacture is STILL relatively high which is STILL very expensive to replace, but still cheaper than replacing a whole battery pack. Ok, got it.
I can get an entire 2nd hand battery pack for my car for less than $5000
I'm not talking second hand here, I'm talking about a "new" battery, just like they replaced the faulty cell with a "new" cell. Nice attempt in trying to make it sound cheaper when $5000 is the same price as a reconditioned ICE engine which has "new" internals.
It's a shame your attitude is so superior, considering how wrong you've often been in this thread
If that's your perception & prerogative, so be it. I'm not about to toot my own horn & talk about what technical background I've been educated in. I just let other people who aren't educated in a particular field say silly things like "you can replace a cell in a battery" because as they old saying goes "give them enough rope….".
Literally nobody thinks that. What a silly strawman.
I see you didn't pick up on my sarcastic joke, next time i'll mark it with "/s"👍🏻.
Yeah, sure it's 98%. Do you have any idea what battery acid is or chemicals that are used that make up that formula of acid & what it does to those cells? If you did you'd know that recycling is no where near 98%
You do know EVs use lithium batteries dont you? They dont use acid, its a salt. And yes, they are 98% recyclable.
I'm not about to toot my own horn & talk about what technical background I've been educated in.
Its obviously not a field relevant to EVs based on your comments.
Seriously, go do some actual research on renewables EVs and batteries - and not your usual media outlets, find some scientific papers.
The only option is disposal & sure, they can drain they chemicals out of it & strip it, but those components aren't directly going back to battery factory to make new batteries
That is patently false. Batteries are over 90% recyclable. Nissan has built a battery recycle plant and is having trouble getting enough materials because the batteires are lasting a lot longer than expected - they either arent failing soon enough, or people are putting them into home storage etc. There is a staduum in europe that runs on solar and reclaimed nissan leaf batteires
I know I said I was out, but scooba, you are so wrong on this. I hate that you keep spouting this atently untrue rubbish and probably think you're owning libs or something. You're not. You're uninformed.
you're owning libs
This is the problem right here, you think it's about politics when what its really about is people being sold untruths and lies, then those people try to on sell the same untruths & lies to more people who're unwilling to blindly buy said bullsh1t.
But by all means continue nonetheless & tell me about gigantic stadiums that run on "reclaimed" batteries and next it'll probably be about battery acid that can be recycled into drinking water.
Why is it so hard for the EV zealots to admit that their cars are bad for the environment as is any other car? Again, you've been sold a lie & have bought into it completely. Don't get me wrong, I yearn for the day when I can drive past all the petrol stations with middle finger raised, but we're not there…yet.
For the record, I don't subscribe to either any side of politics as they're all full of sh1t.
@scooba: because it's widely known, and common practice for these batteries are recyclable and are recycled for both home and commercial use. it's comical when you pretend to preach from a position of knowledge when every post showcases your ignorance
if you want to keep going back to the same tired environmental impact argument, there are numerous studies that shows EV is better for the environment at ~1 year and beyond if using green energy (solar) or 3 years and beyond if using the grid (coal). but you would know that if you knew anything about EV
@V2L: I see you weren't willing to revisit your "owning the libs" comment, not political anymore huh? How interesting.
it's comical when you pretend to preach from a position of knowledge
Likewise, you have no idea or hands on experience with batteries or their construction. All you can do is tout "the studies that shows EV's are better" crap.
You know anyone can do a study & make a pie chart, right?
@scooba: I think it's pretty evident how little you know by now, and looks like everyone knows it too so it's fruitless to continue with this convo. hope you have a good life with whatever knowledge you think you have
@V2L: Ah we're talking "battery swap" tech now when I was talking about replacing "individual cells" which you're making very obvious, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Go ahead and dribble out the next bit of information to make yourself sound smart & remember, EV's run on fairy dust n' love.
@scooba: lol 'replacing individual cells' you must really think you are making a coherent argument.
you keep clutching at straws looking for faults of EVs. at every turn your arguments about longevity of batteries, range and maintenance costs are picked apart and yet you keep coming back to embarrass yourself more
Like your mental gymnastics trying to link Indonesia Nickel to EVs? Where a Stainless Steel maker actually own 49% of the mine and refinery? And most of us actually drive EVs that has zero Nickel in battery.
Oh but beware, Toyota Hybrid use NICKEL metal hydrate battery.
Indo nickel, stainless steel maker, owns 49% of the mine & refinery & no nickel in MOST of the EV's that you all drive in Oz.
Yeah, sure buddy.
Sounds like you didn't watch the show & are doing damage control for you know who…
Or you are just an idiot. That info is actually available publicly way before this "news" came out.
Go ahead and trying to do mental gymnastics to show my BYD having any Nickel in its battery. 75% of all Tesla sold here (most popular) are LFP and then all of BYD (2nd most popular) are exclusively LFP. Tesla and BYD has about 75% of total Australian EV registered.
@Bigboomboom: Oh sure it was, that "news" was completely legitimate & not manipulated in any way by the owners of the mine & refinery.
Yes I bet it's very hard to prove BYD having any nickel in their batteries, which is why you played that card to begin with, but hey there's that giant waterfront chynese nickel owned nickel factory in that investigation, which is supplying dirty nickel for EV batteries.
Good try.
@scooba: LMAO, it's widely public known a Chinese Stainless Steel maker own 49% of the whole mine and refinery complex. Go on, keep trying harder, eventually you will convince yourself. While you are at it, keep using your stainless steel utensil, washing machine, dish washer, fridge etc. that are made with "dirty chynese Nickel".
And LMAO, do you even understand what the hell LFP means? Oh you don't even have to try, there's zero Nickel in LFP battery. Nor Cobalt, unlike in your phone you are typing from. Cobalt is a big conflict mineral but nobody cares, because it's in every single iPhones.
@Bigboomboom: @scooba you are one of the most stupid user I have read on internet so far. Here the yearly award and 2025 is not done yet. Go back to school and stop being stupid for the sake of humanity.
@Bigboomboom: Keep laughing pal, but it's not your lies & damage control that I'm having trouble understanding, it's something else that's glaringly obvious…
Try again.
I'm just surprised not many motorist have been electrocuted yet, though with BYD fast charge technology without a doubt my expectations will be met.
I get the sense that you are surprised a lot
Each time static electricity surprises me.
At least with fires you get a precursor visual warning, but with electricity it's over before you know it.
Username checks out.
Should see what the clothes industry has done.. But with everything its out of sight out of mind. Things get produced in countries for a couple of reasons cheap labour no regulation and ability to pollute..
I am here with popcorn as I can't afford an EV anyway.
I remember ~2004 when the Prius was becoming very popular there was a lot of hand wringing and pearl clutching over dirty nickel mining to produce the NiMH batteries. One study even claimed the Hummer was a cleaner and greener vehicle than the Prius (authors assumed the Prius battery was replaced every THREE years, which is completely ridiculous, as well as other highly skewed assumptions).
But hybrids are now accepted technology. Even 'MG Guy', a well known anti EV campaigner on Youtube is perfectly happy with hybrids, as long as the battery isn't too big and you can charge it. Every one has moved on.
So now we're onto the hang wringing and pearl clutching over metals in EV batteries. The cycle repeats again. In ten years time EVs will be the majority on our roads and the fossil fuel industry will have lost their last gasp fight.
Why do people always associate EV with environmental friendly? I buy an EV because I drive 25000+ KMs per year, and the fuel saving alone is enough for me to buy an new EV compare to owning an old ICE car. Not to mention if you want horsepowers, EV are far more cheaper than ICE cars.
Would you mind sharing some of your actual calculations? When I did mine, I found the opposite. Admittedly I do about 17000ks a year which is a lot less than you but things stopped making sense for me on interest alone. E.g.
Current car's value = 10,000, New Car Cost = 40,000 so Difference = 30,000. Monthly opportunity cost at 6.49% in interest = $160ish per month (so at least 80l or 1000km of fuel).
did you factor in novated lease? you aren't comparing EV vs ICE if you start with a 10k car vs a 40k car. obviously the 40k car will cost you more because you get a nicer car.
Wouldn't a novated lease just skew the numbers more in favour towards the old ICE.
I'm not disputing that the 40k car might be nicer but my comment was a direct response to "buy an new EV compare to owning an old ICE car."
@AG_ACT: Novated leases are all pre-tax.. But it's still normally financially better to keep the car you have rather than to replace it. But if you have to spend $40k on a new car (because old car blew up or whatever), you could very well be better off spending that on an EV through novated leasing, if your lifestyle can support it (i.e. have somewhere to charge it overnight)…
@AG_ACT: We got another one guys! Novated leases are essentially a cheat code with EVs. It makes them cheaper (assuming you have a half reasonable PAYG job)! (Which is counterintuitive based on how novated leases generally operate so I get it).
@AG_ACT: why would you compare a beat up old ICE vs a brand new EV? no regardless of how much savings you get no one is going to pay you to upgrade.
on the other hand if you want to upgrade or have a 40k ICE you're almost certainly better off selling up and NL a 40k EV
@AG_ACT: It would be interesting to see the environmental figures (and crossover point) for just keeping a current ICE car vs the complete production cycle of buying an EV that you don't really need.
@Gaz1: At the same time you would need to do the same figures for getting a new ICE that you don't really need either.
@dasher86: My idea is that some people are buying EVs because they "want" them rather than "need" them and sending old cars to landfill & producing a new EV is probably not best for the environment in the short term (and how long would it be before the EV becomes better for the environment). If the pay-off period is too long it may still be worth keeping a perfectly good old car as technology is likely to improve.
I'm not saying this is worthwhile - I'm just wondering if anyone has done the calculations.@Gaz1: It wouldn't be that hard to do the actual calcs on replacing an old car vs buying a new ev. You dont include the construction pf the okd car. My guess is its probably around 3-5x longer to get be ahead on the pollution stakes depending on how efficient your existing car is.
'Sending old cars to landfill' isnt really a thing until they are scrap value - and then they are recycled or broken up for parts.
If someone is buying a new EV their car doesnt get scrapped. Its a trickle down thing. People buy used cars of all values until they are dead. So buying a new EV punts one of the oldest most polluting cars off the road, and thats a good thing.
@Gaz1: You do realise people tend to sell their old cars if they still work, yeah?
Trying to send a car to landfill would cost a fortune. If it works, sell it. If it doesn’t, recycle it.
@Gaz1: Absolutely ridiculous argument given how many cars we have on the road that aren't "needed". Tradies turn dual cabs over like mad because of tax breaks too. Australians all love buying stuff!
@drprox: Good point. I guess buying stuff we don't need and/or replacing stuff that is perfectly fine is a societal issue we see across many industries (eg replacing your mobile phone as you want the new model). People don't seem to think about the environmental issues surrounding all of the consumerism & what is involved in producing all of this stuff, but I guess on OzBargain we're all partially to blame for this too & I don't think its going to change anytime soon so I guess its more of an observation than anything.
Well I mean you're comparing a 10k car to a 40k car lmao, of course its going to work out worse.
Hit job by Fossil Fuel and Fossil Media.
What about a story on wars in the pursuit of oil.EVs are the new iPhone. Most people don't know shit about them and pretend they are environmentalists while they drive them
Probably less of pretending they are environmentalists and more of laughing as they drive past all the servos watching the slaves to the fossil fuel cartels filling up at exorbitant prices.
Such an underrated part of the experience. All the discussion around charging times when so many EV owners blast past countless servos to plug in at home and get on with life. Charging at public chargers is 0.1% of the time and specifically relates to longer distance road trips (where there isn't an Airbnb at the other end).
Not that i'm an ev owner, but never going to a servo again sounds great. Plug in, walk away. No hanging around doing the refueling. Sure, ive heard that theres too many chargers not working or too many apps required but the reality for our second car would be plug in in the driveway only and take the petrol car omfor the long trips.
@Euphemistic: Yep for sure. That was initially my intention but truth be told it's ended up EV does 99.99% of everything and my fun petrol car sits there looking at me. We did a longer road trip last year and I usually just pick first, second and third options to stop. There are plenty of chargers if you plan on :)
We managed to run 450km without stopping home on the freeway too so the battery tech is certainly improving, I was very happy.
Most of that environmentalist stuff is in your head mate, the true hardcore environmentalists generally drive clapped out bombs and can't afford an EV.
The people buying EVs for the most part is because they are generally smooth, techy & torquey af, if you have a garage they are low hassle transport and you get to avoid the bloody petrol station. They are simply just the best car for a fair portion of drivers, not ALL drivers.Environmentalists don't like cars full stop. They want everyone on PT and bikes.
Guess how the electricity is made to charge the EVs - by burning fossil fuels 🤡
Partially, and at a reducing rate amd wind and solar ramp up.
It's funny have you ever seen the videos of diesel generators powering EV charging stations when they lose power. hahahaha.
Its still more efficient than an ICE
A generator can be tuned to run more efficiently than in a car that requires a large rev range and power output variations.
And when thebchargwrs don't lose power they are using grid which isn't 100% fossil fuelled.
I actually own one. It really depends on your driving habits. If you work 5 days a week and drive an hour each way you'll be charging off fossil fuels and wind. If you work 3 days a week you can power it off your rooftop solar
It's disappointing that this is repeated so often to be thought of as a legitimate criticism of EV.
Yes, a substantial portion of grid electricity is still generated by coal and other fossil fuels; however this percentage is decreasing all over Australia and around the world.
The fact is, even with the dirtiest grid where the majority of the energy source is fossil fuel, it will still beat ICE vehicle's carbon emission when you do a cradle to grave analysis. It will take longer than those EVs charged with cleaner grid, but on average it still will.
Get educated on this concept:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-ca…In a clean grid like in Tasmania, cradle-to-grave EV will start bettering ICE carbon footprint after just 23,000km of driving; whereas even in the dirtiest grid e.g. in WA where 83% was from fossil fuel in 2022 (but improving every year), it will beat ICE carbon footprint after 38,000km of driving.
This stems from the fact that the industrial coal generators is a lot more efficient than your puny engines in the vehicles, such that even electricity generated using coal WILL be better for the environment km to km driving wise.
Consider yourself educated if you are willing to digest all of the above.
It's better to have one big machine creating the energy, than thousands of little machines.
All of which have to be hauled along for tens of thousands of KMs.
Own an Atto3. Primarily charged at home from solar. It's bloody brilliant. Depreciation, don't care as I always run my cars into the ground. Savings, excellent. CO2 output, already less than an ICE .
Negatives. Long trips over ~350km in a day are a pain as the Australian charging network sucks.
I think Channel 7 can shove it up their arses. I won't be mislead.
Too many holes in that show that the credibility is all time low. Nothing but a BEV hit peice
There is no con. If you think there is, it is you that has been conned.
Watched it, The segment should have just highlighted the terrible working and safety conditions of the Indonesian Nickel refineries producing low grade dirty nickel, but it instead tried to attack the Electric Vehicle industry. Mr Bartlett should have known the nickel produced from Indonesia doesn't go into making NMC batteries, its just too low grade. instead its used to mix with steel to make it stainless. I wasn't surprised Indonesian workers at the refinery are made, low wages and high chance of injury or death, but to exploit their emotions to have them say Indonesians are dying for EVs is just rubbish. The segment talked about how much CO2 the refinery makes, ok that fair but why not compare that to a steel refinery or a ICE vehicle factory?
The ambushing of Chris Bowen and cut scenes of the confrontation with the EV Viking were tasteless as well. Further discredits Mr Bartlett and the whole spotlight production team.
When I bought my EV, envinronment was never a consideration.
It was a financial decision, and with FBT exemptions on novated leasing it made sense for me.I don't plan to sell the car any time soon, so depreciation is not really worth considering at this point.
Insurance was not signifcantly higher than my ICE vehicle, maybe an extra $300/year.I bought my EV for these reasons:
* I liked the driving experience
* I liked the look of the car
* I liked that it was quiet
Pretty simple really, I didn't think too much about all of the stuff everyone talks about.All of the above, plus I like the fact I no longer need to go to a petrol station.
Yes that is also a good point!
https://youtu.be/45fiopwHVeM?si=23En046Wgb0frZ7r
This guy calls the BS in the Spotlight video. It's worse than I first thought.
electric viking did a video too. I thought I was realistic about the standard of what passes for journalism here but still managed to be surprised now and then
It is pretty bad. I sincerely hope they were just poorly researched and not deliberately misinforming.
That's an excellent and thorough rebuttal - thanks for linking.
Channel 7 should be forced to make a public apology for releasing such a fact-free and heavily biased "documentary."
Don’t care much about the environmental impact and anything else you mentioned. I just enjoy the EV experience - charge at home, fuel saving cost, nice tech, silent ride, minimal servicing costs.
I am not surprised why more of my friends have switched from the usual German cars to an EV. It just makes sense if you enjoy this type of vehicle.I charge my EV from home solar as much as possible, drive every day and never need to visit a petrol station. When I drive, my car does not burn any petrol. That's not a con! Other people's car exhausts are like walking past a smoker.
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Not all EV buyers want to save the planet. Many of them just want to he rid of the necessity of buying oil.
Using private cars is wasteful, but EVs are less wasteful over their lifespan by a big margin, especially with increasing use of renewable energy in the mix.
As for pollution of mining materials, anyone who is pointing out the materials for batteires being dirty is being disingenuous. They are omitting the massive pollution caused by extracting and then burning fossil fuels. Fossil fuels that are burnt once and take millions of years to make.