[NSW, SA, QLD] 30kWh VoltX Neovolt Battery & 5kW Inverter $5920 Installed (Metro Areas) @ VoltX

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[NSW, SA, QLD] 30kWh VoltX Neovolt Battery & 5kW Inverter $5920 Installed (Metro Areas) @ VoltX
Go to Deal
31mop on 15/07/2025 - 13:57 voltxenergy.com.au (2112 clicks)
Last edited 15/07/2025 - 14:23 by 1 other user

At the risk of being flamed, I'm trying to work out if I should go ahead with this deal or not.

I am aware of VoltX products and they seem reasonable quality. I can't really find too much bad about them online.

The price seems incredibly cheap (which makes me a little nervous). I spoke to a consultant (overseas call centre) and they discounted it on the spot a further $500 without asking so $5420 after all the rebates.

Anyone else had any experience with these guys before I pull the pin?

I already have a decent solar system and I export 30kw a day roughly, and this comes with an inverter which they (I assume) divert my solar into these batteries.

Too good to be true?

Electrical & Electronics Solar Battery Solar Inverter Solar Rebate

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Comments

  • lukelegend on 15/07/2025 - 13:59
    +2

    I've got mine booked in for next week, hopefully will be ok, so far so good with communication etc

    • impoze on 15/07/2025 - 16:26

      with voltx or different installer?

    • freeb1e4me on 15/07/2025 - 20:18
      +4

      Please post pictures post install so we can see how they stack the batteries. Based on pictures it looks side-by-side with gaps

      • Yarkin on 16/07/2025 - 00:03

        I'd love to see this too. I like the idea of the ESY batteries because they're a single tall unit.

  • lammi on 15/07/2025 - 14:00

    Can additional "non-tesla" batteries be added to an existing Growatt + Powerwall 2 installation?

    • ozzie on 15/07/2025 - 15:32

      ….if you have a Tesla PW2 & I presume Growatt Solar or do you currently have a mix of Growatt & Tesla PW2? Whenever I've asked about adding a different make of battery to my existing Tesla PW2 I've always been told that I can't mix the batteries?? I have 3 PVR arrays feeding via 3 inverters & into the home & battery. If you do have a mix of batteries viz. Tesla + Growatt, I'd love to know if mixing the battery manufactures is actually able to happen.

      One thing I've learned from having the PW2 vs Growatt PVR & Battery at my son's house is the "backup" ability. With PW2 the house will run as long as there's juice in the battery. My son has a "backup circuit"….but that's only on one power circuit in the home - not "whole of house".

      • vger74656 on 15/07/2025 - 16:51
        -1

        Something to add to @ozzie is that the PW2 will charge from excess solar during the day. A lot of other batteries won't (Alpha ESS comes to mind).

        • bg on 15/07/2025 - 17:12
          +4

          Huh? Or are you referring to when the house is “off grid” due to blackouts, the solar panels still do their magic powering the house and the PW2 also charges if there is excess (this is correct). But other batteries don’t. (Also correct) You definitely need to ask for clear answers when asking about battery back up during blackouts. Some systems will shutdown. And once it’s installed it’s too late.

        • Dogsrule on 16/07/2025 - 07:45

          charge from excess solar during the day. A lot of other batteries won't (Alpha ESS comes to mind).

          Alpha ESS + all other grid tied batteries absolutely charge from excess solar.

    • HappyPuppies on 15/07/2025 - 17:16

      I discussed this concept with with an installer out of curiosity. In summary, it is technically possible but not recommended. The DC batts would be connected to the hybrid inverter and would operate separately to the Tesla system. Honestly doesn't sound ideal and makes the system klunky, and weakens the 'smarts' of the Tesla system.

      Best to just get an additional PW2, you get the benefit of the extra 5kw inverter, and your also using 1 app.

  • klaw81 on 15/07/2025 - 14:05
    +3

    Really curious to know what the deal is with these guys - the price is very low compared to every other offer I've seen.

    • skysurfer on 15/07/2025 - 19:26

      The hardware is one component of the cost of a system. The installation component along with after sale service is just as important to a buyer and also a major component of the cost of the finished system. So comparing quotes based on the same hardware as apples for apples is not a meaningful comparison.
      To get the price down corners can be cut in all the things that aren't the hardware, or to put it the other way the price can be higher because best practices are used to install it which ensures the best possible reliability and longevity, the system has been designed to provide the best return for the specific circumstances of the buyer, and the post sale support/customer service is timely and effective. All of those things require considerable time and expertise which both cost more money. So I would suggest the deal with these guys is you're not going to get the best return on your investment.
      I work for a solar company that offers the same system but it costs more for all the reasons above (and includes backup as standard not an extra cost).

      • furyou on 15/07/2025 - 21:52
        +3

        Of course. But how much more?
        I was quoted $16,000 for a 10 kilowatt battery to add on to my existing solar two years ago.

        Obviously the prices will have changed now but if those were the options I'd rather $6k for 30kwh that lasts 5yr than I can't even afford 16k.

    • furyou on 15/07/2025 - 21:50

      I thought this initially and then I got spammed with lots of different Facebook ads all with around about 30kwh for around about 6 to 8000
      So I'm really not sure if any of these are OK

    • Team America on 16/07/2025 - 14:55

      There's a $350 per kWh rebate ATM. That's $10500 for a 30kWh system. So their price is actually $16420. Last year I remember a 10 kWh system for about 5k installed.

  • 31mop on 15/07/2025 - 14:06
    +2

    I'm wondering it the 5kw inverter is enough for the power I need at night.

    As I have a ducted air con, don't know the size - say 13kwh, can I even run the AC at night off the battery if the inverter is only 5kw?

    • harro112 on 15/07/2025 - 14:10
      -4

      A ducted system normally draws around 5kw when it's running hard so should be fine.

      • Sunny84 on 15/07/2025 - 14:25
        +4

        find another battery that has at least 8-10kw inverter…. below are some of my common household load's typical power usage which don't all run at once, but a combination of them can which far exceeds a 5kw inverters max output:

        fridge = 200w
        router/switch/wifi/nas = 200w
        tv = 200w
        rain water pump = 800w
        microwave 1200w
        kettle = 2400w
        ac = 3000-5000w

        • harro112 on 15/07/2025 - 14:36

          He said at night, I doubt his kettle and microwave and ticking away all night

          • 31mop on 15/07/2025 - 14:40
            +2

            @harro112: I assume if I'm running AC and it goes over 5kw, i'm just buying from the grid then right?

            Kettle is used once or twice a night. Microwave very rarely.

            1 or two tv's running at night, router on. Couple of fridges running.

            So i'm probably only using 1 kw or so at any given time, so I'd be maxxing out that inverter if I run the AC and will be buying when it's on.

            Might not be a big issue. Undecided.

            • Zeee on 15/07/2025 - 14:54

              @31mop: Whats your daily consumption with aircon running day night at what temp? Is it ducted ac? With airtouch?

              • 31mop on 15/07/2025 - 15:00

                @Zeee: General usage is about 35-40kw a day. I feed in about 15-20kw a day.

                Ducted, not my air (it's 18 years old so might die soon).

                • Zeee on 15/07/2025 - 15:04

                  @31mop: So we are in the same boat. Mine is 18kw panasonic. And consumes 35-40kw a day at 20.5c temps

                  13kw solar, in winters produce around 14kwh with 10kw inverter.

                  • noz on 15/07/2025 - 19:39
                    +3

                    @Zeee:

                    18kw panasonic

                    That would be the heating / cooling capacity. The power draw will be a lower figure.

                • laser on 15/07/2025 - 16:00
                  +1

                  @31mop: Get on OVO and run your ducted for 3 hours free during day 11am-2pm. If you have EV you also get 8c electricity for whole house midnight to 6 am.
                  There is also a NSW aircon rebate to replace your ducted with energy efficient aircons

            • Nom on 15/07/2025 - 15:20
              +4

              @31mop:

              Might not be a big issue. Undecided.

              It's not a big issue - as you've already said, if you bump over the 5KW then you just buy the extra from the grid.

              If 3 minutes of kettle pushes you 2KW over, then you just pay for that 3 mins of 2KW use (approx $0.03). You don't need to size your battery/inverter to cope with these short-term peaks.

              Note that if you changed to a battery/inverter with a 10KW output limit, then all you would achieve is that you can now drain the battery in just 3 hours. This doesnt help you - you'd then just be paying for power over the remainder of the night 🤷‍♂️

              • Sunny84 on 15/07/2025 - 15:36
                +1

                @Nom: Subjective….

                10kw inverter/charger with 30kw battery would mean in most cases that you can charge your battery in 3 hours vs 6 hours compared to 5kw inverter

                I use OVO with free electricity between 11am - 2pm so i'm currently at 20-30% SOC by 11am and then charging my 30kw battery back to 100% SOC during the free hours.

                • Nom on 15/07/2025 - 15:50

                  @Sunny84: Right, but a 10KW inverter/battery is not on the table as part of this deal, is it ?

                  Are there 10KW options available for anywhere close to this $6K price ?

                • Hansi on 15/07/2025 - 20:14

                  @Sunny84: But do you have solar in the mix as well?

        • rhino86 on 15/07/2025 - 17:46
          +2

          @Sunny84 - RAIN WATER PUMP = 800W GEEZ WIZz THAT must be one heavy duty pump which is able to pump many levels up and up.

        • Some Random Guy on 16/07/2025 - 04:04

          So you exceed 5kw for the 2-10mins that they all happen go run together. Now 5kw would be covered by the inverter. You're doing say 4kw from the grid for 10 mins. At 45cents per kWh yours looking like 30 smth cents per incident, compared to 5kw constant which the 9kw peak incident. Savings 5kw constantly is pretty god damn good imo…

        • grrrr on 16/07/2025 - 09:24

          this is missing electric oven and electric cook top which are the biggest consumers of electricity in our house in the evenings. We will have a short peek over 6kW most nights. Some nights the peek will be between 5-6kW. Between 4-9pm we generally consume about 6kW total so a 9kW battery would suit me. But a 9.6kW sungrow battery connected to the sungrow hybrid inverter costs $3k more.

        • serpserpserp on 16/07/2025 - 10:11

          I have three back to back ACs and when I run them all flat out on a 40 degree day they don't exceed 4kwh, probably just over 3.

          I was pretty surprised by this

    • wikimee1 on 15/07/2025 - 16:22

      On average, my 13kWh ducted aircon consumes around 3-3.5kWh power depending on the temperature set relative to the ambient.

    • jacobb on 15/07/2025 - 16:59
      +1

      I got a battery installed last week with a 6kwh inverter, not this brand.

      Charging my car yesterday was 4..5kwh from solar, 1.5kwh from the battery and 2kwh from the grid
      Using ducted aircon to heat 2 rooms plus the oven going, plus tv and 2 computers running and we used roughly 5.5kwh at peak.

      • Poor Ass on 16/07/2025 - 20:08

        How much?

        • jacobb on 16/07/2025 - 20:38

          I already had 8kwh of panels and paid just over 10k for a 30kwh battery.

    • zerocritical on 15/07/2025 - 17:36
      +1

      This most likely will be a single phase inverter. So if you have 3 phase, any power drawn from phase 2 and 3 will be from grid.

      • ChickenAdobo on 16/07/2025 - 01:43
        +1

        Can buy another two for phase two and phase three.

      • Dogsrule on 16/07/2025 - 07:59

        The installer will connect this 3 phase power meter (separate to your DNSP meter) so the inverter is aware of imports on the other 2 phases. It will then export on the phase it is connected to which will net out imports on the other 2 phases. No big deal.

    • M00Cow on 15/07/2025 - 18:45
      -1

      what does the battery do? I've got a 8kw inverter, but my LG battery only handles 5kw…

    • opelcalibra on 15/07/2025 - 21:52

      I've got this battery and a ducted aircon
      I can tell you most ducted systems will go over 5kw and draw from the grid or solar.
      My system runs at 6 to 6.5kw.
      Ducted will use all 3 batteries in 6 hours

    • od810 on 15/07/2025 - 23:49
      +1

      I think for most usage 5kw is fine. But i would prefer to get the 10kw inverter, especially if you want to take advantage of some electricity plan (like OVO EV plan) that gives you 3hour of free electricity, you would need 10KW inverter to fully charge your battery during that period. I cut down my bill by half switching from normal time of use tariff to OVO EV plan by charging battery during free 11-2 & 4-6AM (i only have a 10kwh battery).

    • cuteclub on 16/07/2025 - 12:21

      No, 5kw inverter is not enough.
      I have 5kw inverter with Tesla Powerwall 2. I have Daikin 13kw aircon.
      When I turn on the air con, it draws around 6.8kw, it will be at min. 6kw, it will draws around 2kw from the Grid if I turn on the aircon. (I didn't turn on full power for the air-con, usually just use 1 zone for 2 bedrooms.)

    • rdhupar on 15/07/2025 - 14:17
      +20

      Why dont you post rather than pm people? Would be handy for others looking as well.

    • mirovich on 15/07/2025 - 14:33
      +1

      PM'ed :)

      • eciuj on 15/07/2025 - 15:03
        +9

        Can you post the reply here to save everyone time?

        • mirovich on 16/07/2025 - 10:00

          Sorry, he didn't respond to my message.

    • dealhunter52 on 15/07/2025 - 14:34
      +14

      Wow…second comment in 8 years, only to downvote and without providing any details.

    • DaiShan on 15/07/2025 - 15:10

      Can you share who you went with and how much it cost? I am keen to get a battery but not sure who to go with

  • noisymime on 15/07/2025 - 14:12
    +6

    That's shockingly cheap for 30kwh, like half of the next best deal I've seen for that capacity system. I hope it's real, but that is suspiciously cheap.

    • team teri on 15/07/2025 - 17:38

      Don't forget that there's over $10k in battery rebates factored into the price of a 30kWh system. So looking at 'half' the out of pocket cost, this offer is only a much more believable 25% cheaper before rebate…

      LFP battery cells are very cheap these days. Well below $100/kWh. With a subsidy of over $300/kWh for a system, there's plenty of room to pay for housing, BMS & inverter, while still leaving a decent margin to pay for support and warranty.

      We are currently over-subsidising home battery installs. Political decision…

      • skysurfer on 15/07/2025 - 18:35

        Please provide even1 link to $100/kWh without subsidy LFP batteries that I can add to my system.

        • team teri on 15/07/2025 - 20:00
          +1

          I wrote "battery cells". To add them to your system you will need additional components: a housing, a BMS, some wiring. At cost all those materials together still cost a lot less than the subsidy per kWh.

          On a large scale: BSS systems like those added to our grids with 100s of MW output and GWh storage cost less than the subsidy amount home owners get for small systems. And that despite the fact that they need to purchase or lease land and pay for civil engineering, high voltages transformers and transmission upgrades.

          Here's your link, to a genuine supplier of top quality cells. I have purchased from them. Each of these cells holds over 1kWh for less than US$50: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/EVE-8000-Cycle-314Ah-…

      • noisymime on 15/07/2025 - 22:01

        this offer is only a much more believable 25% cheaper before rebate…

        There is typically not 25% margin in these systems, not once installation and warranty are accounted for anyway. I would love to see the wholesale prices of any system that is 30kwh for this price.

      • Horacio on 16/07/2025 - 11:42
        +1

        Yep, I just bought some top quality EVE prismatic LiFePo4 cells direct from a supplier in China much beloved by the DIY community, for 30kwh it costs A$2000. Adding a thousand for an SRNE inverter and another five hundred for BMS and copious wiring and fusing would bring the total hardware cost to about $3500. That is all before the subsidy - so they are still making plenty of money on this price. What baffles me is that their competitors are charging so much. We are being royally ripped off by most of the providers.

        • team teri on 16/07/2025 - 12:18
          +1

          Yes, total rip-off.

          Similar to 18 years ago when the first ($8000) PV subsidy came out. Back then I started my own solar install business, beating all the old rip-off companies on price and still making a very good living myself.

          Back then it was the installers making the killing, wholesalers were pretty reasonable. I reckon right now with batteries it's the importers and manufacturers (Tesla/LG) that charge too much.

          It will take companies that talk to factories in China and import directly to overcome that. With enough volume to cover the compliance costs (regulatory listings to be eligible for the subsidy). Maybe this deal is an example for that. As I wrote: their pricing still leaves plenty of margin to be successful.

          Got a link for the cells you ordered? I am very happy with the ones I got from my link (also EVE), but the prices aren't as good as they should be right now. And the winter weather shows me that a few extra kWh would not hurt.

          • Horacio on 16/07/2025 - 13:43
            +1

            @team teri: Apologies - stuffed up in part of that calculation! The cell price I quoted is USD not AUD so they come to a little over A$3000 (or about A$100 per kwh). Can't edit my post any more! There are three of the well-regarded suppliers at about the same price, this one is the cheapest https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Shenzhen-Qishou-Mb31-… Ignore the default prices - you have to strike up a chat and share your address and haggle over price.

            • team teri on 16/07/2025 - 13:58

              @Horacio: Thanks, that's actually exactly the same seller and cells I got. Different link to same product page.

              I ordered from them last October. Cell prices were higher back then of course. I got a couple of dollars off the cell price and about 20% off the default shipping cost.

              Do you mind sharing what price you got now after haggling? Feel free to PM me you don't want to say publicly.

  • Buyingcrap on 15/07/2025 - 14:13

    Try calling SAE to compare pricing. They operate in QLD and also deal in Neovolt Batteries. I had mine installed in Feb before the rebates by them so I can't comment on their pricing but the workmanship and communication are top notch. No overseas call centre BS. Qualified Aussie installers.

    As for the Neovolt system itself I can't fault it. It does it's job I mean what more can I say. I have had no issues and it just does battery things. Works with amber if you want to go VPP.

    • Appleboat on 15/07/2025 - 19:21
      +1

      I'm waiting on a battery install of a different brand with SAE, settled early June with deposit paid and mid-June install date, cancelled, then mid-July install, cancelled now mid-Aug install date. Different reason each time. Don't recommend and considering pulling the pin with them to get this with someone else.

      • Buyingcrap on 15/07/2025 - 20:03

        I'd imagine all solar companies are ran off their feet and booked out for months at the moment. I bought just before the announcement of the scheme and from quite to install was probably only a couple of weeks.

    • Phoenixzeus on 16/07/2025 - 10:59

      Their communication is good but I had a shit experience with their guys and had to have them come back to rectify after my sparky wouldn't touch my place for further work. To their credit they did come back and rectify the issue though.

      • Buyingcrap on 16/07/2025 - 17:37

        Shit, what was the issue?

    • Poor Ass on 16/07/2025 - 20:10

      How big and how much?

  • clartan2015 on 15/07/2025 - 14:16

    applicable in NSW and SA too? it says in their site - Price based on standard installation in the metro areas across NSW, SA, and QLD. Additional fees may apply for backup protection or specific installation conditions.

  • pc65 on 15/07/2025 - 14:24

    "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"…just saying…

  • LHSolutions on 15/07/2025 - 14:40
    +2

    Time to expand to VIC :)

  • Matt P on 15/07/2025 - 14:40
    +4

    I had left a message for these guys on behalf of my dad, still haven't heard back - that said, i called the last day of the financial year.

    Did a bit of research on the company, turns out they've posted here before, seemingly started out selling batteries for 4wd's and have been slinging house batteries for a few years.

    Worst feedback i can find seems like someone having a bit of argy bargy with an installer, but if the call centre is offshore and their background isn't necessarily in home electrical, could be a bit of a risk.

    That said, payback period on something like this would barely be 3 years.. as long as they don't go broke before then? Would be hard to do if the govt is throwing subsidies at batteries, they'd be beating away customers

    • furyou on 15/07/2025 - 21:56

      How are you calculating payback times?

      I've used solarquotes that says 5 to nine years adding battery on my existing solar
      I have solaranalytics That has my actual usage and it seems more like 20 to 30 years
      Electrical providers all given random numbers

  • muddrex on 15/07/2025 - 14:44
    +1

    I asked the company who did my Solar Panel install years ago (good service and the fact they are still in business that's always good) whether they carry Neovolt batteries (as I inquired about adding batteries earlier because of the new rebate program), he said that he doesn't do Neovolt batteries as "It's just a small company with no manufacturing facilities and proper tech support. It could disappear anytime."

    I've definitely read good review on Product Reviews on Neovolt batteries but at the same time I also trust my solar installer had been great with the install and services after that so I'm really on the fence about this. It is indeed more than 50% cheaper for a similar size setup and usually when it's too good to be true, it generally is….

    • keejoonc on 15/07/2025 - 14:46
      +6

      He could be right or he could be just saying those things because he doesn't sell them.

    • RichardF89 on 15/07/2025 - 14:58
      +4

      My friend is a commercial battery installer. He told me that if the battery is on the rebate list, then don't worry about the quality. The government has done the testing for you. It is not easy to be involved in the rebate.

    • WhyAmICommenting on 15/07/2025 - 15:39
      +1

      They are a rebranded AlphaESS which is made by ByteWatt. Not small from that angle.

      Of course the support comes from VoltX and they’ve been around quite a few years now, but nothing is guaranteed to last forever.

      • muddrex on 16/07/2025 - 11:24

        There seems to be quite a bit of negative reviews on AlphaESS batteries… if Neovolt is just rebranded AlphaESS, i'm a little concerned.

  • Donutpuss on 15/07/2025 - 14:50
    +1

    OP can you be our guinea pig please…

    • 31mop on 15/07/2025 - 15:01
      +11

      Sure, you can all send me $100 each and I'll buy it and post all the results :)

      $100 each and you either save a lot, or spend just a fraction more.

      • DannyBoy on 15/07/2025 - 18:20

        Great concept 😁

      • serpserpserp on 16/07/2025 - 10:30
        +1

        Ok. Share account details

        • 31mop on 16/07/2025 - 15:40

          Get 25 people together, and I'll do it. I'll bear half the cost, you bear the other :)

  • ruddiger7 on 15/07/2025 - 15:03

    Cant speak to this exact product - they have been advertising a bit on my social media though. For a little more peace of mind quality-wise I'm paying a bit more for a Sungrow.

    • DaiShan on 15/07/2025 - 15:13

      which installer are you going with and how much?

      • ruddiger7 on 15/07/2025 - 17:57

        Probably too different to compare to this deal - but a local Sunshine Coast installer doing a 30KW Sungrow battery for a little over $11k

        • haliloo on 15/07/2025 - 21:29

          Is that figure for adding batteries to an existing system with a compatible inverter?

        • bejahi on 16/07/2025 - 08:07
          +3

          So "a little bit more" is 100% more.

          Gotcha!

          • 2Fast2Fuhrious on 16/07/2025 - 09:48
            +3

            @bejahi: Can literally get 2 of these systems… I don't understand the obsessions at the moment with overpaying for a supposed better quality battery system when you can just replace it for half the cost. Why opt for a 10 year pay back period when you can get a 5 year pay back and in 5 years time batteries will likely be even cheaper and better quality anyhow…

  • Opaquer on 15/07/2025 - 15:05

    So I'm still very new to how it all works - is the 5kw inverter for the battery specifically, or will it replace my solar inverter? Does it mean that they'll leave my current solar inverter on the wall but the max input/output rate of this battery is 5kw?

    • 31mop on 15/07/2025 - 15:10
      +1

      Yeah 5kw inverter dedicated to the battery for input/output (is my understanding)

      • Opaquer on 15/07/2025 - 15:10

        Awesome, just wanted to make sure! Thanks for the clarification!

    • laser on 15/07/2025 - 15:17
      +1

      Inverter is for the battery, your current inverter stays. This is for the inverter included in the deal, Neovolt also make a hybrid inverter which can re[;ace your solar inverter, but not in this deal/

      • Opaquer on 15/07/2025 - 15:20

        Honestly I think 5kw is probably a good inverter size for this battery. The only thing we have that uses that much is our air con (I think it's a 7/8kw split system) and our hot water system, but we have that on a timer to turn on during the day. That makes a single battery/inverter very tempting indeed! Thanks for that info, time to think about some numbers!

        • laser on 15/07/2025 - 16:30
          +1

          You can get an additional 5KW inverter at extra cost, not worth it unless you have big loads like ducted

          • freeb1e4me on 15/07/2025 - 20:24

            @laser: And also EV charging: Single phase 7kw, three phase 21kw

  • laser on 15/07/2025 - 15:19
    +5

    I have installed this battery in two of my properties so far in Sydney, have been running fine since September. Now ordered this deal for third as its a really good price.

    • DannyBoy on 15/07/2025 - 18:23

      Curious did you upgrade the inverter size and what amount of panels did you go with ? I'm looking at 13kw panel amount and 10kw inverter

      • 2Fast2Fuhrious on 16/07/2025 - 09:44
        +1

        Also in the same boat, have 12kw of panels and looking at a 10kw inverter for battery. Wondering if 5kw is too small or if 7kw would be enough?

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