While the rich, including EV owners, Solar panel and battery owners, just coast along on their next subsidy, the rest of us just cop the next increase, and keep voting the same way.
It is beyond ridiculous that winter house heating is now more expensive than charging an EV.
passive house just means a house that is designed to minimise energy requirements utilising the things you've mentioned, but the 'branding' helps to standardise "how passive" a build is.
Exactly .So when you posted a comments about passive houses I responded accordingly. You linked passivehaus(competely different spelling) only after I responded to your claim via your words.
Anyway anybody who can't afford top of the wozza passivehaus et al type structures/accreditation (ie most ppl) can easily modify a house plan to orient it it, add the right windows in the right places,insulate,shade,provide cross ventilation etc,thermal mass etc, without a cost impost and still be miles in front comfort and energy wise. Most ppl can't get a foot in the door, let alone afford a architectural luxury like 9-10 star options.
TLDR
Solar passive design is a no brainer. It doesn't need a rubber stamp to work. Do it ppl
@Protractor: like i said it's branding. i'm not sure what your issue is here. i'm agreeing with you, the point I'm making are:
@V2L: My point is you don't need anything grandiose to make most shit designed houses better, with a few tweaks.
Framing it as complex or expensive, even by complicating the simplicity, is a road block. There doesn't need to be third any fourth party involvement. Waiting for policy, in this space, to bail you out is self inflicted stupidity. (How's action on climate change going?)
It begins with wanting the simple (almost) long term benefits by educating yourself.
Solar passive design is a no brainer. It doesn't need a rubber stamp to work. Do it ppl
@Protractor: so your problem is with the words passive house itself or do you just like arguing? passive house is merely a principle, you seem to misunderstand that it's some grand luxury design that costs millions to put in place, not every house needs to be airtight with a HRV. it's like saying we want to build a good quality home. but you have to be realistic that 'do it' means engaging an architect and using the right materials to make use of insulation and thermal mass etc etc. all of that cost money, and if only we spent as much money on making good designs accessible as we do on rebates
@V2L: No I made a simple point about solar passive design, not about a company with a finger in the pie (which you did)(after the initial post)
And I discussed solar passive, (responding to what you wrote.
Last time.
( I want to encourage ppl, mate, not confuse and dissuade them)
But with you it has become a pedantic argument. No, you don't need an architect, you need the simple will to want to do it.You don't need to pay anyone. Well maybe if you want to own the book.
For those who want to learn there's a book to read (library should have it) called Warm House Cool House (CSIRO publication?) do read it, ignore the nay sayers.
@Protractor: I made no reference to the company apart from linking their website to explain the rating system. buty you seem like the type of bloke who enjoy yelling at the cloud all day so I will leave you to it while I enjoy the lovely UV
@V2L: Go back to what you first wrote. LOL>
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/16622366/redir
the other issue is the terribly leaky houses we have
if only passive house weren't so ridiculously expensive to build
Hypocrite much?
Op be thankful you are in Victoria and not in NSW with somewhere that is supplied by Essential Energy.
Don't think we are quite up there with SA and other expensive states yet but we aren't cheap in comparision that's for sure.
Plus we are getting solar soaker soon too which basically means you won't get much feed in during excess solar times or you'll pay a charge.
Unfortunately it's what ~30% of people voted for
green with envy methinks
We are doing pretty well here in the ACT, largely due to us investing in renewable energy. Also some of the loan schemes has allowed us to get solar and batteries which take demand off the grid in peak times.
ACT investing in Renewable energy?Did you see where Canberra sold off it's "energy" companies to China
More like Government subsidising everything?
We've sold (and gifted) more real estate,data,sovereignty,resources and dignity that we ever have and could to China.
We are owned.
We gifted most of our gas for free to Japan and US not China. We gifted so much of our gas to Japan that it sold our gas for profit to other country. So, Japan is a country who is making money by selling our gas to other nations.
@IamHere2: I agree. That's my point .
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/16625259/redir
Even if we did sell any thing off the China, the lions share has been gifted away to so called friends.. Most of our sovereignty and self sufficiency is owned by the USA. When not milking the 'friendship directly' they onsell those gifts we let them rape and pillage.The point being China isn't an energy vampire, the opposite is true in regards to trade around energy. Surely most of the rooftop solar etc is Chinese sourced? The NW shelf (our fkn gas) should have been running Australia's entire, national, interim, gap-filling energy, until we have the global elite energy infrastructure.
Check this story.This is how stupid this country's commercial, sovereignty laws FIRB are>
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-06-16/sa-government-issues-…
I'm sorry but which energy companies did Canberra sell to China?
The ACT imports power as required
It is beyond ridiculous that winter house heating is now more expensive than charging an EV.
EV charging doesn't have any subsidies…. So not sure what you're on about.
One subsidy that I can think of is that you can roll your EV charging costs into your novated lease, even if the cost to you is zero via solar.
One subsidy that I can think of is that you can roll your EV charging costs into your novated lease
and how is that different of rolling your ICE fuel/petrol costs into the novated lease?
The OP was claiming EVs get a unfair subsidy, what you have said, if you want to class it as a subsidy would be EV getting the same as ICE cars have for decades.
So if that was the case, then anyone on a novated lease gets an unfair subsidy compared to those that own outright!
@JimmyF you missed the final part of the sentence.
Nobody is getting petrol for free but the perk for EVs is that the ATO allows you to claim a fixed cents per KM amount. Even if you don't actually incur that cost because you are charging your EV from the sun.
I know it's minor in the scheme of things but its definitely a perk related to charging an EV.
I suspect OP has issues with the EV plans where you can charge for 8c per kwh at night. which is silly because it's merely a marketing ploy where they offset it with higher tariffs on non EV charging to make up for it, that and to gain market share while funneling peak usage to off peak times
8C per Kwh?
Just try to get home heating for less than 20 cents per Kwh.
I would be happy with whatever you are talking about.
.
Does anyone on this forum actually pay their own bills?
some EV plans have EV charging between 12 midnight to 6am at a discounted rate of 8c. but they usually have higher rates during the day/peak hours of 38c/kwh or so to make up for it. there you go, learnt something new today?
@Clickbait: what do you mean? it's for home charging
it's no different to peak/offpeak plans. just a marketing product irrelevant to our discussion. I thought this was perhaps what you were referring to with your comment. I guess not
Just try to get home heating for less than 20 cents per Kwh.
Sign up to a EV plan (you don't need a EV), and you get 8c kWh between 12am and 6am :)
I suspect OP has issues with the EV plans where you can charge for 8c per kwh at night. which is silly because it's merely a marketing ploy where they offset it with higher tariffs on non EV charging to make up for it, that and to gain market share while funneling peak usage to off peak times
Fun fact, anyone can sign up to these plans and use cheap power between midnight and 6am or whatever the plan hours are. Even if you don't have a EV!
There are also plans with 'free' power during the day as well that have nothing to do with EV ownership.
Its not a EV subsidy like the OP is claiming, the gov isn't paying anything for this. But as you said, the plan owner is offsetting the cheaper night power by higher peak times.
exactly this
Apologies.I am unlucky enough to live in Jemena Victoria Area, and they give you nothing. Happy to accept pointers
I'm waiting for LifePO4 power station price to drop.
china invested in LifePO4 batteries for EV's and they make them to the highest quality (basically they beat everyone to it globally) and extremely cheap. no way $1k per 1kWh of current power station prices is a deal.
btw I am looking at premium LifePO4 power stations, because they say most likely all the LifePO4 cells come from china with the same standard, but what you are paying extra for is the quality of everything else (still think they should cost much less than they do now though). if the other electronics fail you are left with just LifePO4 batteries that you can't use.
some hacks I learned is some people are using a premium LifePO4 power station, with available much cheaper LifePO4 marine batteries which you can cable together and plug into the power station's solar port. I think you need to buy a separate charger (also pretty cheap) for the marine batteries , and unplug/plug them everyday but you can expand the storage to like 10x the amount (with much less cost) of the Powerstation which is expensive on it's own.
if you have some old solar panels on your roof then you are lucky, just have to charge during the day from the wall plug. but if you don't you will have to invest in solar panels too.
I don't really use heaters enough to buy one right now, but if you are not heating a large area with AC (apparently most efficient per W) I have been recommended ceramic fan heaters are the most efficient for a small room and also low cost.
their consumption not only lower than most other heaters, but they also have less surge (good for powerstations) and apparently are self adjusting resistance or something according to ai, which makes them waste less power into heat compared to normal heaters.
the one i bought for family member is out of stock. but this is more or less the same. you could say better because consumes 200w less than the one I purchased, and oscillates (the one I purchased doesn't) https://www.mitre10.com.au/goldair-electronic-oscillating-ce…
I'm also seeing a few powerstations shut down in tests when you draw the max Watts. don't assume you can do that max. if your heater is 1800W buy a powerstation that can do 2000W constant. if heater is 2000W buy one that can do 2400W constant etc. surge is usually a bit more apprently like 3000W~4000W, but that is for a few seconds only, again be on the safe side.
I have been recommended ceramic fan heaters are the most efficient for a small room and also low cost
All resistive heaters are 100% efficient. The only better you can do is reverse cycle air con or heat pump.
All resistive heaters are 100% efficient.
it would be helpful if you explained it a bit more. when you say "All resistive are efficient" it sounds like "most heaters are resistive".
from what I read and heard normal fan heaters are very inefficient, one of the worst consumers. also heaters such as oil heaters take a huge amount of power just to heat up the oil inside, it gets more efficient after that but that doesn't sound great to run off a battery.
I don't know about the ones that have that huge glowing orange front, but from what I heard they are pretty terrible at warming up a room too, you have to stand infront of it. and they are also more of a fire hazard.
And I don't need heating between 12am and 6am, or are you already making that point :)
I think you're talking about Utility death spiral. I personally think that everyone having solar or their own generation is terrible planning and that centralisation in key distribution points makes sense but that is going to be very hard to go back to.
for transparency: have solar panels, no battery. current incentives with interest free loans make it hard to not take it up.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03014…
it's interesting that some people are so ideologically opposed to the idea of renewables that even the promise of clear financial benefit does not get them over the hurdle. i guess they are putting their money where their mouth is. or burning it rather
I’m 100% for renewables but rather than every one as their own plant would rather see large scale deployments that is spread across technologies, locations etc.
These are currently going on (big solar farms and batteries to supply to cities/towns) but my understanding is that microgrids is the future and reduces the burden on the major grid.
Yeap. Crazy hill to die on and then to cost you money not to take up shugs
the promise of clear financial benefit
Unfortunately not everyone is in a position to take up the HUGE government WELFARE payments to install solar and batteries.
These EXPENSIVE schemes are designed as middle class welfare, which is ALWAYS to buy votes (just like all the other middle class welfare Howard started way back and is still going to this day in one form or another). Because it is middle class welfare there are fences and moats deliberately built in to explicitly prevent "the poors" from making use of them.
Middle class is disappearing..soon enough it will be just us working poor vs the billionaires
@V2L: Some of those 'working poor' will be living in the million dollar houses they own while the other 'working poor' rent from the battler 'working poor' with the property portfolio though…maybe they should be grouped differently.
@Talonparty: You mean the ones that will pay for 70 per cent of our income tax revenue so we can have nice things like Medicare and social security?
@V2L: It would appear we would be in agreement that 'working poor' is a ridiculous label for the asset owners
You will struggle to find a single person who is in any way ideologically opposed to renewables. It is common sense when the government is taxing coal production to subsidise unproven methods
Do you know how much power (influence) the CFMEU has over the govt and it (union) is the backbone of coal. And if you saw how much mining(esp coal) get shaved off the price of diesel, free ground water etc, the fake news about heavily taxed is laughable spin.
get some exercise in when you feel cold
It’s insane to think we as a country can mine coal and sell it to other countries (to pay for our government services via tax), which will then be used to generate cheap electricity in another country, but we are not using it. The same coal, no matter where it is burnt, will still go in the atmosphere.
But somehow we feel morally superior not using it but paying far more to use other forms of electricity. Then complain about it.
Go figure
It's just a sad kind of virtue signalling being used to mask a weird self-flagellating NIMBYism.
We should have (and could have) converted our (strategically located) coal fired power stations to gas (our fkn gas) 30+ years ago, and by now we would have had accelerated the background tech to a viable base-load model, with high % renewable dominating the grid.But the LNP deliberately road blocked and the ALP went pro CFMEU so Ferguson could get a gig in resources after he retired.We have gifted our gas to to players like the USA (to flog on) and apart from them getting as much as they want, they pay a pathetic price compared to local domestic customers. If at the same time we had implemented a national permanent reafforestation scheme, we could probably have kept using gas as an on demand power supply ,over renewables
That said,
It's below childish to keep denying climate change and hating renewables for purely entertainment purposes. Grow up.
I don’t deny climate change. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Maybe don’t jump to conclusions so quickly.
I’m just pointing out the grand standing and hypocrisy that we can’t use our own resource for cheap energy, but others can.
I'm not inferring you directly. These topics always bring out the infantile denying cohort, and if you look at the posts surrounding yours they triclke in and contaminate(dilute it down to 'no such thing' etc.
In the absence of facts they rely on terms like woke or virtue signal to gild the the steaming turd.
Daily access amount has gone up, @OP, how does that not impact those with solar panels and batteries?
This obsession with net zero is killing us sadly 😭
The obsession with all things electrical & endless gadgets and the inevitable exponentially energy consumption (inc EV recharging) will kill us sooner
Legitimately haven't paid an electricity bill in 2 years due to churning and govt rebates
i just warm person not house make it cheap.
EVs charge with electricity. My heater works with electricity. How is one cheaper than the other?
How is one cheaper than the other?
it's cold right now. so many people using inneficient heaters. I think that's what OP is experiencing.
Because on many plans you can actually get PAID to charge your EV during peak times.
And on other plans, ridiculously cheap rates to charge your EV.
There is no actual check you have an EV, so nothing to stop you getting one and heating the pool during EV charging times.
Exactly. OP needs to quit bitchin and work with what hes got
Just WHO got himself the 4th payrise?
None of you guys were complaining when the Interest rates were going through the roof and home-owners/landlords had their repayments more than double?
The thing is, you have choices to make and the lifestyle cost comes based on those choices. If you chose to be a renter as you priortised a lifestyle over a home, then stick with it and dont complain. I tell the same thing to the landlords who complain about the increasing repayments.. it is a choice they made and they can always change that choice.
I really regret not making the choice to buy a home in the early 2000s when prices were reasonable compared to wages, instead of choosing a lifestyle by attending primary school like a moron. You snooze you loose I guess.
You will find that there are always places where prices are reasonable and in your budget even if you are in the minimum wage group.. if you want a flashy house in a better location, then make better career choices through hard work.. it is always about making a choice.
In the current market you have the added risk of ending up with a lemon .
Oh! to be a bureaucrat.
Yeah I know right, I should have been buying land instead of growing in the womb
If you heat your house in winter you are "the rich".
Another 9.5% increase for me. Another step to batteries becoming viable.
Get a better job and stop complaining you leaner. Try being a lifter.
It's what "we" voted for due to lack of alternative,
I agree, most of the "government incentive" programs benefit those with cash flow and I've been a winner over the years.
It's just as wrong as our tax system, that rewards gambling.
Those that say it's to incentivize housing are delusional, as investment stock is not build for livability.
The irony is the super funds that target the working class are the biggest culprits in driving up house prices, and making chicken coop housing to maximise super returns.
So effectively their own super is keeping them out of the housing market.
If you're dumb enough to spend all your money heating your house you deserve to lose your money.
Buy some socks and a blanket ffs.
Don't worry. Renewables are going to deliver plentyfull cheap energy at some point in the future* **.
*maybe not in your lifetime
**if you need it when its windy
Australians sold off everything their governments owned. Now at the mercy of the 'markets' on everything from housing to healthcare they are reaping the benefits.
Enjoy.
Whilst I can appreciate that people are struggling, generous subsidies for the wrong energy sources only exacerbate the problem in the long term. The longer we keep giving out energy rebates and cashbacks on bills, the longer people will just continue to use fossil fuel electricity in non-sustainable matters. The most effective way to get people to reduce their usage and upgrade their technology, is a price incentive.
We have this belief thrown around that climate change is a corporate responsibility - and not a personal one. And whilst that is very comforting to those who would prefer not to exert any effort personally, it's simply not true: we all have to do our part. Your electricity consumption matters. Your electricity source matters. If you are heating your home off the grid to the point that you are in financial strain, you are a part of the problem.
That's not to say I don't believe in subsidies at all. But they should only be green, to help you to move off the old grid, not to keep it on life support. No relief for non-green energy bills.
Bought a place about 6 months ago and was looking into solar…
The pay back period was worse than infinite as I have made more in cashbacks than I've paid in bills in this time ($344.27 profit).
Same here - but the question is whether you can expect the cashback to continue to exceed your consumption for the next 10(?) years
Some. things. should. never. be. privatised.
Energy
Health
Education
Prisons & law enforcement
** add your own.
It causes these utterly stupid and unnecessary disparities. I like capitalism, I fully enjoy price wars on consumables. But for some things, good social policy goes a long way. Like taxing the mining industry more and the individual less. Like nationalised energy. Or spending billions locking some dudes up on an island because private contractors.
Anyway stop blaming people who partake in the capitalist exercise of spending more in the hope they will one day spend less. I can't think of many who have made back the cost of their panels and battery and are in some net negative energy cost space. Blame all of the governments except Kevin who tried to do something about it by taxing the mining industry, and who keep distracting you by trying to divide us all so we don't think about Gina.
how else will we pay for those vote buying election promises.. just kicking the can down the road for future governments
Ring ring ring peoples, red energy effectively cancelled a 30% price increase for me with only the FIT dropping 1c.
One issue is most houses in country are not insulated or sealed. I can smell my neighbour smoking as there are cracks on the wall/doors. There is a breeze on my nose while my house is sealed shut and I am under the blankets trying to sleep.
50 years ago everyone smelled of cigarettes.
Just standing next to a smoker is so nostalgic, reminiscent to a simpler world where people didn't judge everyone else about everything.
Think of cigarettes like Subway, and I do not judge people who must love to gag.
But that's the stench of rotting food that would sttop me sleeping.
To all the people that voted Labor back in, suck it up. That is what you get when every single policy they have is causing the prices to be jacked up.
Nope. It's the result of failed Liberal policy.
If you can pick between Turnbull and Rudd, you have a problem.
This is a 100% LNP legacy of doing nothing around modernising energy for 40 years.
So the sucking up is all yours.
They are fundamentally the same parties. How different are their agendas, programs? Not really different.
Just out, this helps to understand why it is getting more and more expensive. And no it is not the renewables.
Surely you can't expect RWNJ to believe an alternative viewpoint, even especially when if it is true?
I need to get off Ozbargain for a while - the amount of ill-informed opinions and misinformation about renewable energy is truly staggering!
They are all opinions but few facts. The difference is that opinions are usually insults, facts are reproducable facts.
I assume you watched D3HUN's link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLb_FlxErGI
This entirely factual article should be mandatory education for every schoolchild in Australia. The story rationalises the forever increasing prices without even once mentioning climate change. I bet not one "changer" will look.
In fact even "Wallet Wizard" Jim Chalmers should take to it with his deluxe crayons. It's not that he is stupider than any of his predecessors, he just doesn't come across as the sharpest tool.
Corruption in Australia is a lot worse than most people realise.
@Protractor: yes.. that's what it means.
passive house just means a house that is designed to minimise energy requirements utilising the things you've mentioned, but the 'branding' helps to standardise "how passive" a build is. and usually refers to one with a higher energy rating compared to the bare miniumum ie. basix. certificate or not is for marketing purposes - fact of the matter is they are very expensive to build compared to your usual project homes due to design and material costs.
then there are the older houses that most of us live in that do not meet the modern BASIX requirements and in winter can feel like tents. even BASIX at 7 stars stars is not great. and 9-10 stars is what a true 'passivehaus' aim for.
you can read more about it here. if you knew what is required to get the 9-10 stars you'd see why the costs are much greater
https://www.passivhausassociation.com.au/passivhaus-fundamen…
https://www.passivhausassociation.com.au/news/nathers-vs-pas…