Have received an infringement notice for driving at 65 at a 60 zone. I know it has exceeded the speed limit. However, somewhere I remember someone saying that there is 10% tolerance. Is my understanding correct?
Infringement driving at 65 at 60 zone
chrismatt on 28/11/2020 - 15:37
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That's correct. They have taken off 3 KMs.
SO, your detected speed was 68, and you want 10% off that?, still works out to be "over 60km/h" (61.2km/h)
Is this for every State?
Us lucky Victorians get 2km/h taken off, then anything 100km/h and over it's 2% off the alleged speed.
Where can I find such information for QLD?
@Hellcrusher3304: Found this from the QLD Police site.
6.5 Follow speed POLICY Speed detection whereby the speed of a subject vehicle is ascertained by comparing it to that of a following Service vehicle driven by an officer is commonly referred to as the ‘follow speed’ detection method. PROCEDURE An officer intending to check the speed of another vehicle by the follow speed method should consider the following: (i) the amount of tolerance appropriate in the circumstance (see s. 6.8: ‘Amount of tolerance allowed in speed detection’ of this chapter); (ii) whether the speedometer of the following vehicle is currently certified as accurate by having been tested within the previous six months (s. 124(1)(p): ‘Facilitation of proof’ of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act); and (iii) whether the distance between the police vehicle and the followed vehicle ensures the safety of the occupants of both vehicles and other road users having regard to the speed of the vehicles, road conditions and weather.
So other words it's up to police discretion on what tolerance they will give.
@Hellcrusher3304: This is a another section.
6.8 Amount of tolerance allowed in speed detection POLICY The amount of tolerance allowed in speed detection should not be made public knowledge. This information, if published, may create a de-facto speed limit. The officer responsible for determining the amount of tolerance to be allowed in any method of speed detection should be, in the case of: (i) a speed detection device operation, the officer in charge of the site; (ii) a follow speed method, the officer taking enforcement action; and (iii) the estimation or speed formula method, the officer making the estimation of the speed or determining the speed by using the speed formula. The amount of tolerance may vary in different circumstances and an officer when determining the appropriate amount of tolerance applicable for a particular circumstance should consider the: (i) accuracy of the speedometers fitted to vehicles; (ii) accuracy of the speed detection method used; (iii) speed limit for that particular road; (iv) nature of the road (number of lanes, geographic features, etc.); (v) condition of the road; (vi) amount of traffic on the road at the time, the day of the week and the time of the day; (vii) prevailing weather conditions at the time; and (viii) safe and efficient use of resources at a speed detection device interception site.
This was the reference (i) section 6.8 from the first reply, just a little more indepth.
Search 'QLD police speed tolerance' in google and it's the first item as a PDF file if you want to have a good read.
When I did some research on this last time,
- Mobile speed cameras: Alleged speed is 3kmph lower than clocked speed
- Fixed speed cameras: Alleged speed is 2kmph lower than clocked speed
- Police Laser detection device: It is discretionary for the cop to take off 2-3kmph, not required though
As well as that, Australian speedometers read out 5km higher. If they booked him for 65, it's cause they had him at 73.
Australian speedometers read out 5km higher
As in car speedometers, or police readers?
The car speedometer that you look at while driving.
@freakatronic: Logically they would have still had him at 68..
It's just that relatively, his speedometer would have likely been somewhere between 70-73. Which is why there isn't going to be a lot of sympathy.
@freakatronic: Thanks, I didn’t understand your comment as speedos aren’t reading 5 km/hr over the true speed for all cars.
@ShortyX: True, not all cars. I definitely haven't driven all cars, but to my recollection most that I've driven displayed 5km/h over.
@freakatronic: My understanding is that the speedo is allowed to read +10% over the actual speed, but it's not allowed to underrepresent the actual speed.
Those are just the allowed tolerance that cars need to be within some will be more accurate than others.
@lint: Mine's way out. 95 indicated is dead on 80 according to my satnav and my hud. To get satnav and hud to read 100 the speedo needle has to be just shy of 120.
@ShortyX: It varies from car to car, but I've driven about 20 different cars in my life and they have all been set to show you 3-5km/h higher than your true speed shown on the GPS.
Depends on the car and tyre size. Mine is dead on with a gps. Previous car was out by 3kms.
Agreed.
This is incorrect.
Whilst true that nearly all would read faster than you're actually going, its wrong to say its 5kmh for every car.
"…..disallow under-reading, and permit over-reading by up to 4kmh + 10%."
For my main car its about 5% up to 100kmh, and is kinda a fixed kmh beyond that.
For example doing 63 on the speedo is actual 60.
I remember someone saying that there is 10% tolerance
No tolerance on OzBargain.
Try here (If you are still in Victoria) - Official warnings
It's ADR 18/03 that covers speedo accuracy, essentially the speedo is allowed to read OVER the actual speed by a margin but not under. I.e. If you are doing 110 it's ok for the speedo to say 114 but not if you are doing an actual 114 for the speedo to read 110.
The 10% thing was/is informal. Most cops used to not bother if you were only 10% over but it was always discretionary. These days with revenue being a priority you're far more likely to be booked than not.
It all depends on the cop. If his location isn’t getting any big speeders, is likely to select someone going slightly over. If it’s a known speeding black spot will probably let a 10% pass and wait for a bigger fish.
Cameras are not discretionary. They catch everyone.
Like Euphemistic wrote, but, from the highway patrol officers I have met, some are cool and see the law as flexible. Others will do you for 3kmph over as they are fishing for bigger crimes.
Cockroaches
Or doing a tough job & saving lives? First ones to rush towards danger gets my respect.
@Yorkshire-Man: If they were volunteers they’d get my complete unreserved respect. No doubt they do a tough job and am thankful for police as a community service. However, they voluntarily choose the job and are rewarded with pay.
RFS, Surf Life Saving Clubs, St Johns Ambo Volunteers… they are heroes.
Police are people and just like all people, they earn respect. It is not bestowed upon them by virtue of their job title
P.s. ask where the nickname came from. The answer will surprise you
@Vote for Pedro: Agree, but not cockroaches. I grew up in the UK and the police were always fair & reasonable when I came across them… Australian police I find less approachable, but never lost my respect. However, I am very aware that I'm white & therefore statistics say I'm not in a vulnerable & over-policed group.
Tell me about the nickname?
@Yorkshire-Man: It’s what GDs call highway patrol, in nsw anyway.
Ps, found the MET incredibly professional. Polite, approachable and relaxed. Chalk and cheese with nsw police.
You’ve taken me back to remembering the IC codes
@Vote for Pedro: There you go. Yeah, the UK police are typically more friendly and approachable where I find that even when you smile at a passing police officer here they rarely smile back. I would generally avoid them here, but still, respect the work done.
Not sure why revenue would be a priority? Fines from speeding just go back into the road safety fund so no one personally benefits.
Boil it down cops are employees. Are you likely to reward employees that let things slide or employees that help you meet targets (budgetary or otherwise)?
It won’t have been issued by a cop - try again bro
Take it court, camera will never turn up, no fine ?
That's a fantastic way to turn a small fine into a large one.
Your understanding is incorrect. The ticket will say something like “detected speed” and then they give you a few fudge km off, like 2 or 3 and then put in another speed saying “alleged speed”. So, you were probably clocked at 68, got 3km off and your final speed was taken as 65.
If you did it, pay the fine or ask for leniency. If you didn’t do it, dispute it and take it to court.
Typical scumbag hitting quotas . Yet coming home from work on the eastern some people think it's ok to do 60-70kmh in the left lane, try merging from 100 into a lane doing 60. This is worse that speeding in my book. A slow driver is a driver without confidence. They need to be removed from the road asap
This shits me to tears. merging onto the freeway at 60 because a couple of numpties in front are too busy off in dreamland somewhere else but where they should be.
To be fair, doing 60 in a 100 zone will also get you booked.
Meh… yes and no. In WA, on certain roads, yes. In Qld/NSW, possibly not. It all comes down to obstruction of traffic (Aus Road Rule 125, 2b.).
At 1am on a totally empty freeway, doing 60 in a 100 zone, probably not (might get pulled over for a drug and/or alcohol test). Do that shit at 4:30pm, peak hour on the M4 and you're going to feel the un-greased stick of the law unceremoniously slid roughly up your back passage.
This ^^^^
THIS!!! That's a great post. I have written a similar letter in the past. My understanding is that if you are less than 10KM over limit and have not had another infringement in the last 2 years, you MAY receive a caution.
Accepting that speeding is dangerous and illegal, I shall leave it to you to determine if this was accidental and an anomaly, thus deserving of leniency.
The source is that until about 2006 speedos had a 10% tolerance.
My speedos have no tolerance for my old balls
I take it they've already been sacked?
misses made them redundant during the GFC
How about smuggling budgies?
Tony Abbott doesn't drive anymore he has a lifetime of free entitlements.
I read the NRMA magazine once, they had actual speed / indicated speed for every model.
I think most were 97 / 100, some 98 / 100.The new tolerances are always below.
At its worst (probably American cars) your speedo can show 114kph when your true speed is 100kph.
It must be the cause of a lot of right lane road rage.
ADR 18/03: Speedo accuracy formula (for cars/trucks)
V1 = indicated speed, V2 = actual speed.0 ≤ (V1 – V2) ≤ (0.1 x V2) + 6 km/h
0 ≤ (114 – 100) ≤ (0.1 x 100) + 6 km/h
0 ≤ 14✅ ≤ 16✅
So, yep, a speedo can indicate 114km/h, yet the car could only be doing 100 km/h and that is fine with regards to ADR.
@pegaxs: This is the stuff. OZB likes to talk a lot about speeding and a big factor is that cars can have radically different speedo readings, and some people use the real speed from GPS. If it's a 60 zone and you're sitting on 58 on your speedo, you could be going closer to 50.
@inconspicuous: That's why I laugh at people whining about speeding fines. "I gOt DoNe dOiNg 65 iN a 60 ZoNe!!1!1" when what they actually got done for was doing 68, were given 2~3km/h leeway, so their speedo could have been displaying anywhere up to 74km/h. Their "actual" speed was just a little bit over, but their bullshit story of "the speedo was just a little bit over", is usually a crock of shit.
@pegaxs: Exactly, thank you for saving me the time of typing that explaination out. OP pay the fine and learn from it!
@pegaxs: Exactly. Using your formulas above, with an actual speed 68km/h, OP's speedo would have been reading anywhere between 68km/h and 80km/h.
Splitting the difference, OP was probably doing 70-75 in a 60 zone and is bitching about getting a ticket. lol
@Chandler: And that's basically the crux of it. The ticket they get says 65, but the speedo in their vehicle was well over 70 at the time. They knew they were speeding.
Anecdotally, comparing GPS (using google maps) against the car's speedo, when GPS is registering 100 the speedo on my car is about 108-109.
So seems to be approx 10% difference in my case.Same here 109 true speed is 100.
Although I normally do 106 just incase, GPS is accurate, but you can never be too careful.
And just to note, I was still being over taken in an 80 zone when doing GPS 80 on the dot, single lanes, over a crest…
People are absolutely stupid on the road and I never understood what the rush was, I always meet them at the red light anyway.
Err, no. That's the claim. You're bootstrapping in thongs there…
I see you are from the People's Republic of Victoriastan. Wait until you cop one for going 61 in a 60.
Wait until they get you for 60. The speed limit is 60, just as the blood alcohol limit is 0.05. You blow 0.05, you’re “over” and charged as such. Same logic can and will be applied to speed soon enough.
Haha … I had exactly this thought, although my understanding is the if the speed limit is 60 you can go 60. Do you know what the actual rule is?
I know that the 0.05 is that you have to be "under" so 0.049 is actually the limit.
Do you know what the actual rule is?
Why, yes, yes I do…
20 Obeying the speed limit
A driver must not drive at a speed over the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road where the driver is driving.
Ergo, if the limit is 60km/h, you can drive at 60, but not at a speed "over" 60…
The speed limit is 60, just as the blood alcohol limit is 0.05.
It's not a blood alcohol 'limit' we just call it that. The actual legislation refers to a blood alcohol level of 0.05 or more, not a limit of 0.05.
Wheras speed limits are actual limits, and the legislation states to you need to Exceed (the) speed limit to be guilty of an offense.
The same logic can only be applied to both if the laws are actually changed.
Just think about the number of times you weren't caught OP, then you are still ahead.
haha some great responses in this thread
I love this comment. These people usually speed on a regular basis and most people creep over the limit from time to time or miss a sign, and the one time out of the 1,000+ they have done and been caught and it's "ReVeNuE rAiSiNg!!1!!1"
What does your infringement letter say? I'm assuming you are from victoria? They specify exactly what the tolerance is in Victoria, something like 2-3km/h of what you were clocked at
Tell them the ‘rotation of the earth’ theory and how it affects geo-magnetic waves etc. And long story short you had a monkey in the backseat playing with the “Bop-it” toy.
Problem solved.
I did this and the lady at the desk laughed at me and told me to pay the fine.
(Try to take positive)
No, thats the bunnings price match guarantee.
What did your speedometer show?
Probably at least 70. More likely 73-4 if the 65 has already taken a few km off.
Yeah, that’s what I thought the driver is likely to have recalibrated in their head what shows on the speedometer with what s/he thinks is the actual speed, vs sticking to “little bit” over 60 (eg 63).
install speed camera jammer and detector next time.
Both illegal in OP's state.
oh…well…..you can always hide them….and just hope you dont get caught with it installed….just like speeding pass a speed camera….or red light camera….
maybe you had bought new tyres and the extra 6mm of rubber was making you go 2% faster at the same indicated (speedometer) speed
i thought rgb lighting did that not cheap rubbers
Why are you exceeding the speed limit? Why would they give you an extra 10%?
If you have a 10 year clean record then write in explaining this, and apologize for your lack of concentration etc. and you should be fine - no, I mean "no fine".
I usually knock off a couple of km’s to allow for the inaccuracies.
Worked for me in just under 40 years, touch wood ,A big fan of cruise control where applicable…Can anyone answer this - can you get fined for driving 65 in a 60 zone. So if you're definitely doing 65, and they knock 3km off so on the ticket it says 62, is this legit?
Ever seen the big signs with a red circle and a number? That number is as fast as you are legally allowed to go. It’s there for a reason and you don’t get a free pass on anything.
In the good old days they gave some leeway for speedo error, radar error etc. it seems currently they give you 2-3km/h to prevent a few court cases. Discretion is applied by police officers. They recognise what speeds are on the section they patrol and pick the higher speeds so they don’t waste their time getting someone just over when they could catch someone going a lot more over. Cameras don’t apply discretion because they can catch everyone.
Most speeding fines have a range. Ie 1-10km over, 30+ over etc so it doesn’t matter where your speed sits within the range, that’s what you get.
If you think you are hard done by for a 62 fine when you are doing 65 you don’t get how it works. The fine will be the same as for 65. In some cases it’ll get knocked down to a lower bracket which is not something to complain about.
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No. They take off 3kms so if the ticket says 65 you were clocked at 68