Misrepresentation of Hospital Costs for Patient without Insurance

Had family visiting us from overseas recently. One night their 9yo kid developed breathing difficulties and we had to visit the ED at a public hospital in Brisbane.

Family did not have visitor health insurance in Oz so we had to pay $1,200 before he would be looked at in the ED. The kid was treated with an inhaler and monitored for approx 7 hrs while the symptoms got better and the they were stable.

Subsequently the hospital staff asked the kid to be moved to "short stay" so they can further monitor before releasing. We specifically asked for any further costs that might be applicable, and the staff assured us that short stay was covered as part of the emergency fee we already paid and no further charges will be required for the move. The reason they provided for the move was that the kid no longer needed one-on-one care in the ED and just needs to be monitored. So we agreed and signed the paperwork for the move.

After about 5 hrs in short stay where he was occasionally monitored the kid was released.

Approx 10 calendar days after the incident, we received the receipt for the payment via post.

Approx 36 calendar days after the original incident, we received another invoice for an additional $2,050 in hospital fees for one day of stay at the hospital.

We were baffled at this and questioned the charge, and we were explained that this charge was for the admission to short stay. We explained to them in detail that in the conversations we (myself and the parents) had with the hospital staff, we were advised that the short stay was included in the fees already paid and that no further fees were required, and that our decision to agree the move was made based on this.

But the revenue office of the hospital is clinging on to a clause in the data collection form that says the fee estimate provided to us is an estimate only and further charges may be incurred. The best they can offer is an explanation that the staff has given us incorrect information at the time.

I understand that our rights under the ACL can't be just "signed away". The facts are:

  • If the short stay is indeed chargeable then the hospital has seriously misrepresented the charges involved
  • If we were informed of the charges, we would have politely declined the move and checked out as the kid was stable at that point
  • How are we expected to make a sensible decision if we were misinformed of the costs involved?

Is this really how the system works? Is this the (frankly pathetic) standard of informed financial consent in our country?
Should we be fighting this? Is there any point?

We would appreciate any guidance or opinion the community has on this matter.

TLDR: Kid treated at hospital without medicare/private insurance. Hospital fees were paid before he was treated and we were assured by staff that no further fees were necessary. 1+ month later, hospital has sent a bill demanding further charges.

Comments

              • @R4: Someone gave you the logical explanation. This is what happens. Prior to hospital procedures you are asked whether you 'want a consultation' with aneasth. (as in at their office/practise). Even IF you opt out, they have a duty of care to dbl check (law) Yep, it has a fee. However it is WAY way lower than had you chosen a formal meet up as per the former choice. The biggest gravy train in health is at the top, where mates of one side of politics milk it. Go back to when the Howard? govt health minister told his mates there were millions $$$ up for grabs for CT scan implementation. Guess who rushed out and set up the early forays into that trough? It happens every day in aged,health and child care, and 90% from one side of the equation, and they control the market prices. Players are happy to go along with it cos $$$. Yes it's a gravy train, but I'd rather have that $80 safety net prior, than not. However, I'b be even happier if all of that $80 went to the professional treating me than the hospital admin ,company etc. eg the Catholic Church has a revolving door into care, via govt back doors, and a conveyor belt from other countries to supply the front line pawns.
                Just remember which side of the Medicare political bread is buttered on, is all I can say.

        • MG is 100% correct here. For various reasons it is generally not considered 'good practice' for the anaesthetist to have a lengthy (or even slightly long) discussion with the patient pre-op, unless there is a specific reason for it. It is not something that will benefit the patient. The anaesthetist consults with the pre-treating doctors and surgeons to collaborate on a plan, and the surgeons re peri-operative/post-operative stuff; then 'checks in' with the patient if required. Understandably, every patient does not need to have an extensive meeting (or even any meeting at all) with all of the people who will be taking care of them during surgery; yet these people still need to be paid for their services.

    • I've had a similar experience also. There so much happening during these times and it is usually a stressful situation, when hospitals aren't clear on these costs and implications it is quite unfair to the patient. It is like you're just expected to know.

      I can empathise with OP's situation. They asked the right questions, thought they had been given the correct information and based their decisions upon that.

    • They do it after childbirth in private too.
      The paediatrician visits, also at half of them are much like your physio, are unnecessary. So are the ones from obstetrician even though they have been paid circa $10k.
      But they do it anyways and pinch a few $100 for them.

  • +3

    our rights under the ACL

    …As in Australian consumer law?

  • +21

    I would contest it with the hospital. The patient revenue department is pretty low level in a public hospital. I would just say we were not informed of the additional costs and would not have consented to them if presented, due to the low actuality once moved to short stay. Note that an alternative of home monitoring was not offered (which would likely have been very feasible). Register a complaint with the hospitals patient experience department eg https://www.childrens.health.qld.gov.au/chq/get-involved/fee….

    If the hospital doesn’t resolve it you can escalate here https://portal.oho.qld.gov.au/healthcomplaintform/

    Or write to the hospital’s CFO or the relevant minister for health which at the moment is https://cabinet.qld.gov.au/ministers-portfolios/shannon-fent…

    Fees absolutely get waived, but the accounts area will go hard to retrieve them, they have KPIs to achieve etc.

    • +8

      Great advice, nice to see somebody trying to help and not just lecture on health insurance!

  • +7

    Public hospital employees have no clue of non medicare fees and charges that public hospital implement on their own :/

    Next time, take the uninsured person to a private hospital, they are far more adept at knowing fees / charges for almost any situation …

    • Hey 7, re:

      'Public hospital employees have no clue of non-Medicare fees and charges that public hospital implement on their own :/'

      That is utterly patronising rubbish. In fact almost all health professionals (nurses, doctors, et al.) have worked in both public and private systems, and often work within both systems simultaneously. Of course they know all about both systems. The fact is that it is not the job of a nurse or a doctor in a hospital to estimate (much less 'negotiate' with a patient) re the amount that the patient will ultimately pay. They are experts in the provision of healthcare, not 'marketing', 'sales', 'accounting advice', etc.

  • +24

    I work in the system.
    Drs and nurses are deliberately excluded from the costs of treatment in order to do their jobs without influence.
    They generally have no idea how the billing works.
    The administration staff know more about how the billing works but not the exact $.

    There are some Drs and nurses that understand the costings, they will do what they can to help. Sometimes they will not admit the patient to short stay to avoid costs,

    This can only happen if the emergency department isn’t busy because in order to do that the uninsured person will block an emergency bed preventing anyone else being seen there. Which isn’t fair or reasonable.

    You probably asked someone who didn’t understand the rules. Most patients have Medicare and overseas visitors private insurance, it’s not a common situation.

    Even if you were told there would be an extra cost. If you decided to leave, it would have been against medical advice and you would have had to sign a waiver.

    An admission to short stay is classed as an actual admission to hospital as an inpatient.
    Emergency consultations are outpatient basis.
    That’s why this situation cost more.

    You’re not going to get anywhere saying you were told short stay admission was free.

    You are better off pleading poverty and trying to negotiate a reduced settlement payment.

      • +3

        Loving all the down votes! 🫠

        Yes, I agree, the OP's family should have had travel insurance.

        The absence of travel insurance, however, doesn't excuse the billing practices of the hospital.

        • +2

          I've noticed about the same number of downvotes as those who seem to have missed the original bit in the OP that they "had to pay $1,200 before he would be looked at in the ED."
          I challenge anyone here who gets assured there won't be any extra costs, then gets slugged heaps later on, would feel ripped off the same as the OP. I've had that a few times, thankfully not as critical as healthcare, and it's annoying as hell. What's the point of asking (or answering) if the response is meaningless …

          Though ironically enough having insurance would mean any fuss like this they'd help sort it out too.

        • that's because the initial poster actually know how the system works, explained it well, and gave advice on the best way to approach the bill.

          whereas your responses were non solicited, uninformed little emotive outbursts that helps no one

    • If this is right then hopefully YOU didn't sign anything at the hospital and you can just reply to their bill saying that you were informed by the staff that it was free and there would be no extra charge, but regardless they should not be speaking to you about it and need to deal directly with the parents in whatever country they are in (who can then go back and forth saying they were told it was free, or they can ignore it, or they may never actually get contacted). And tell them not to write to you again.
      But if you did sign something yourself then I guess you need to be the one dealing with it.

  • +3

    Travel insurance is a must and also often totally inadequate. If i get sick overseas it will 99% definitely be related to my existing condition and that isn't covered. If i have alcohol in my system i won't be covered, if i ride a scooter i won't be covered if this, that,…. and even when you are eligible for cover it's a shitfully long and tedious process to get paid. But yes, i still wouldn't go without as you need to do your best.

    As for me, i always scout out the nearest country with Medicare reciprocal rights and plan to beeline it to a hospital there if anything threatens to happen. Also a medevac to a neighbouring country for an uninsured event is bound to be cheaper than a medevac back to Oz…

    And with all the issues getting travel insurance with my existing condition i just rely on credit card travel insurance, as dubious as it may be, at least i know i have some kind of cover at all times.

    • Please remind me to never travel with you.

    • Thank you for these useful tips.
      What credit cards come with travel insurance?

      • +1

        Re:

        What credit cards come with travel insurance?

        In general terms, most credit cards from any of the 'big four banks' (among others) that you pay a decent-sized annual fee for. Also note that often a requirement to qualify for the insurance is that you use the card to pay for a certain amount of the 'pre-travel costs' (such as plane tickets, hotel bookings, or car rental).

        Various AMEX cards also include it, but the policies/cover vary dramatically.

  • +1

    I wonder how many of the Australians that have had growd funding recently to get back home or to pay for medical overseas had insurance.

    If they did have insurance was it not the correct coverage or did their behaviour make the insurance null and void.

  • +5

    Family did not have visitor health insurance in Oz

    Stiff shit then… pay up.

  • +8

    If you don't take out travel insurance you have to be prepared to deal with the fallout.

    Just because Australians get free healthcare doesn't mean everybody does.

    • I agree with you in principle Ducky, but I can tell you, Australians certainly do not 'get free healthcare'!

      • Fair Point,

        It's cheaper than Murica at least.

  • +4

    Which country is the traveller from? Australia has reciprocal Medicare agreements with multiple countries. e.g. if I (Aussie citizen) got sick on a trip to Italy and went to hospital I just show my Medicare Card and treatment is free. Same for an Italian who is visiting Australia, they just show their Italian EU healthcare card and are treated free, the same as an Aussie.

    These agreements exist for multiple countries, no insurance required (although recommended for things not covered, same as happens to us here).

    • isnt it like only 11 countries

      • Yo Brenners, re:

        'These agreements exist for multiple countries, no insurance required (although recommended for things not covered, same as happens to us here).'

        Your words are wise, but as the egghead mentions, not many countries are covered:

        'Q. Which countries does Australia have Reciprocal Medicare Agreements? A. New Zealand, Republic of Ireland, Finland, Belgium, Slovenia, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Italy, Malta & Norway have reciprocal Medicare agreements for emergency medical and hospitals costs only. Medicare advises this cover is not suitable as replacement private travel insurance.'

        https://www.htia.com.au/about-us/faqs/#:~:text=annual%20gros….

  • Good luck with your argument and complaints when told something that turned out to be incorrect.

    Also have to read the fine print when you do have travel insurance.
    https://www.9news.com.au/national/husbands-desperate-plea-to…

    • Also have to read the fine print when you do have travel insurance.

      How is a random 'travel insurance' search result going to help?

      • Sam was simply pointing out that just having 'any old travel insurance' is not a guarantee that you will be covered in the event of a disaster/accident.

  • +37

    I've been around on ozbargain for a few years now and really never post, but I saw this post and well quite frankly I'm gobsmacked!

    I work in an ED and have done so for many years, so I have some actual knowledge of how this works. There's some pretty skewed comments on here, so lets just clarify a few things.

    Healthcare is covered by Medicare if you are eligible. If you are a visitor from a non-reciprocal country without insurance, expect an invoice or some form of payment required around the time of treatment. You'll never be denied life saving treatment if you are without the funds or means to pay, but as I say expect an invoice.

    I'm sure most of you are aware of the challenges in most States and Territories here on hospital services, especially in Emergency Departments, so I don't think its unreasonable to expect those who do not pay taxes or a medicare levy to pay for services rendered. Every dollar spent on treatment on ineligible patients (patients who are not entitled to medicare) and skip without paying is money lost from the public system, so again it's pretty average to see people suggesting they not pay. It's not a revenue raising initiative, it's cost recovery for service. I guess if you're not concerned about funding, then don't complain about poor wait times to get into hospital.

    I find it almost unbelievable that the parents were not informed about the costs. If your family were charged "$1200 before being looked at", then this wasn't a mild respiratory issue. The fee for being seen in ED is based on what triage category the patient is - the more serious the condition, the higher the category and the greater the fee due to the number of consultant doctors, nurses, equipment / resources required. At that fee, you would have to be a near critical / acutely unwell patient and there would have been a lot more treatment than just an inhaler and the occasional observation. Again, staying in ED for 7 hours indicates to me that the patient was more than just a bit unwell.

    So that brings me to the question of going to the Short Stay Unit - yes, it's part of an ED but it is considered an inpatient admission. Again, we wouldn't send someone there unless there's a need. There is significant pressure to get patients treated and out of ED, so keeping someone there for the sake of it, is BS. If a child still requires monitoring after 7 hours in ED, then there's more going on than what you have described. At this point, I would suggest that there was also probably some consideration given to admitting the child as inpatient to the paeds unit.

    That "paperwork" you just signed will have outlined that it's an inpatient admission - I'm guessing it would have been a Patient Election Form and probably an Ineligible Patient Form (or similar) - things that you need to read and tell you that you're going to get an invoice. It would have been an admin or finance person as clinical staff don't have that conversation, but I can tell you that we do talk to the admin staff when it comes to ineligible patients so we know what options we might have and whether a private hospital admission might be an option.

    Ultimately, the choice to travel without insurance was a choice regardless of whether it's common at the country of origin or not. To get a visa to visit Australia, the website has lots of information about visiting including adequate health cover:

    https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/help-support/meeting-our-req…

    Public health services are under enormous pressure and yes I wish the Government would provide more funding, but hey that probably means more tax, so if you've used the services then I'd probably say just pay the invoice and be grateful that it happened in Australia where you get qualified care that hasn't cost $30K.

    Apologies to the good folk of ozbargain for the rant, but it gets a bit rough trying to plug the titanic with your finger and then seeing some of the comments above hit a nerve. But it didn't do any damage, so it won't cost you anything! :)

    • +2

      I just want to say I love the work the health services do in Australia!! Thank you!!

    • +2

      staying in ED for 7 hours indicates to me that the patient was more than just a bit unwell.

      Yes. I was going to comment on this too.

      • +2

        Not necessarily, it may mean not enough beds for an admission, it may mean not acute enough for ICU, it may mean a lack of confidence from a trainee to recommend home monitoring and lack of access (or perceived lack of access) to a consultant - so many variables.

        • +1

          usually once you get past the waiting room to ED things go pretty quick.

          • @hawkshead: That hasn’t been my experience, but depends on the issue and the facility. I’ve worked in places where they’d shift people to short stay so they could be seen by nurse, social worker, physio or OT prior to being sent home. Sometimes people wait in ED to be seen by the specialist team such as neurosurgery, or vascular surgery. Sometimes the nurse brings the patient in and does some obs, then it’s quite a bit longer for the doctor sees them. With my kid it was the nurse, then registrar, then reg wanted consultant to see us. No complaints, but not always quick.

    • +1

      Gov just need to get rid of the submarine deal and there would be enough funding for decades

    • in USA it would have probably cost 5 times from what I've heard

    • Hi Mezza, re:

      '… and really never post'

      True enough, I see that you joined 3 years ago, and really never post (as in, this is actually your first post).

      Why did you wait so long?

  • +9

    Wait you would have denied the professional advice that the child be monitored in short stay because its a bit expensive?
    if you had insurance would you make the same decision?
    if something happened you'd spend the next decade hating yourself every day. Also as a guardian of a child you have an obligation to ensure they recieve medical care.

    • +1

      But that $2k can get you a sweet Qled

    • While I agree with you, I feel hospital are unethical sometimes to extract maximum from the uninsurred/ private insured. My parents were privately insured and I have realized this from my personal experience.

      • Not in Australia - the fees are pretty cheap compared to other countries!

        • No they're not. What are you basing this on? USA, UK, UAE? The two or three 'westernised' countries in Asia?

      • Private insured and public patients get charged the exact same. That's your insurance company scamming you. or a private hospital.

  • +2

    Had the same thing happen also Brisbane public hospital

    People who charge and people who treat are completely different so whoever you talked to at the hospital would have no idea. The costs are crazy like $5000+ sometimes for non overnight stays

    But I've never heard of this have to pay $$$ before they will look at you even if you were an overseas visitor with no health insurance. Maybe the rules have changed but at no point did money ever got bought up and was treated. They would send you the bill after. I mean if life or death, they'll treat you before talking money compared to some countries if you don't have money they'll leave you on the street

    I notice you said do the right thing but there is nothing Queensland Health can do if that child's parents don't pay and go back overseas. They might sell the debt to a collection agency but most likely they'll write it off

  • +1

    I'm not sure ACL covers hospital care

    • -4

      I'm not sure ACL covers hospital care

      If you're not sure, why post?

      • I'm actually 100% sure it doesn't

        • Oh, I'm now inspired with confidence.

          I'd be even more inspired if you cited the relevant legislation when making the claim.

          • -1

            @YesPleaseThankYou: You can cite me the legislation where you prove I'm incorrect.

            • -2

              @serpserpserp: You are the one making the claim, the onus falls on you.

              • @YesPleaseThankYou: You can't answer me because you are either just a troll, or you know as well as I that there is no specific ACL clauses that deal with public hospitals. There is also no successful case law where dispute of costs quoted in a public hospital has been judged under ACL. These types of complaints are dealt with by the ombudsman or complaints offices in their local jurisdiction.

                So now over to you too find the legal case examples of where I am wrong and where a consumer under the ACL has indeed had their claim against a public hospital judged and won in their favour.

                But I can guess what you'll do next instead. So I'll leave this thread now unless it is to come back and eat my words with your case examples (which I'll be happy to do).

                • +2

                  @serpserpserp: It's actually really quite difficult to work out definitively.

                  The Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (Cth) applies to the Crown in right of the Commonwealth, State and Territory governments, and local
                  government, in so far as government ‘carries on a business’. The Harper Review recommended amendment to apply the CCA instead to government
                  in so far as it undertakes activity ‘in trade or commerce’.

                  http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNSWLRS/2021/13.pdf

                  The important thing is whether the government is carrying on a business.
                  Arguably it is - In this case, they were charging a fee for a service… which kind of is.
                  Medical professionals are covered by it - see https://www.accc.gov.au/business/competition-and-exemptions/…

                  Misleading patients and unconscionable conduct
                  Misleading patients
                  Misleading conduct can affect patients physically, psychologically or financially. These effects can be long lasting. It is essential that medical professionals give patients honest, accurate and complete information. It is also important that this information is given in a form they can understand.
                  Under the Act, members of the medical profession must not:
                  mislead patients relating to fees, procedures or outcomes…

                  Or were they performing a statutory function?

                  "Where an authority is engaged in a regulatory or statutory function, such as domestic waste collection, it will not be carrying on a business." .

                  https://www.lindsaytaylorlawyers.com.au/in_focus/the-applica…

                  Also See:
                  https://www.crownlaw.qld.gov.au/resources/publications/apply…
                  https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/digital-law-library/judges-speec…
                  http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/FedJSchol/2016/12.…

                  There are recent reforms around this - whether it has been tested for this scenario since the reforms I am unsure. The aim of the reforms was to make it clearer it applies to government, as in the past it was difficult to determine as sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't - a reason given for the reforms was:

                  "[It is] extremely important that the Trade Practices Act should start from a position of universal application to all business activity, whether public sector or private sector, corporate or otherwise. Only in this way will the law be fair, be seen to be fair, and avoid giving a privileged position to those not bound to adhere to its standards."

                  I would think under thew newly clarified intent, as they are performing a fee for service, this is trade, and one could argue it should apply to them.
                  However as many things in law, it is far from clear cut. I would accordingly cry fowl under ACL and make a big fuss about it to management, the ACCC, anyone who will listen, put a position in writing with witnesses to the hospital and explain for this reason you will not be paying it and it won't be worth their trouble to take legal action to recover.

                  Right or wrong is often irrelevant… in most such things, stating your claim clearly and sensibly to defend yourself in writing, and telling them why you shouldn't pay in writing, and then requiring them to take legal action to recover will mean its not worth while. The fact you hold the money and they just have a invoice demanding money, means you automatically have the upper hand. Generally only the ATO can forcibly take it from you for tax without legal action, other departments can't. However, I would presume there is a risk regarding refusal of future visa's if that is a concern for a foreign person if they lodge a claim and you don't defend it.

                  • -1

                    @MrFrugalSpend: It isn't clear, thus why the case law comment. The medical professionals bit it clearly aimed at private business operators, predominately around marketing issues or clear cases of not performing the service to an acceptable quality.
                    Given there are other avenues of remediation to clear these types of disputes, trying to use ACL is the wrong tool for the job. Particularly for this type of scenario OP has pointed out.

  • +2

    Lol my cats vet bill for a sore paw was more then this. I would pay it if it meant my child was ok and for peace of mind.

    • The other interesting part is, if they were visiting from the US it was probably way cheaper than treatment at home!

  • Yes, without medicare. if you do not pay you won't be seen in ED, [staff would try to help you regardless if you appear to be in medical emergency though]

    Yes, you would be charged extra when going to short stay [don't ask me why].

    Whoever told you that you would not must have misinformed you

    For that reason, If you are not on Medicare/insurance, my ED would not suggest you going to short stay at all.

    I just work on the clinical side, don't know why the system was set up that way.

    On the other hand, I was under the impression that most if not all of the charge can be waived on compassionate ground.

    • +1

      Whoever told you that you would not must have misinformed you

      If they can't work out the importance of travel insurance, I'm going to guess the "misinformation" came from the other side.

  • +1

    Even with travel insurance, does not mean you are guaranteed not to pay a single cent. Just like our private health cover, many exclusions plus expensive excess/gap.
    But in any case, it shouldn't be your problem unless you signed something that makes you a sponsor or guarantor for the patient (is that even a thing?)

    • Yo Jeans, re:

      'Even with travel insurance, does not mean you are guaranteed not to pay a single cent.'

      'Not paying a single cent' is removed from the issue. These dudes should clearly have had travel insurance, and if they had this would not be a thread/discussion. This is the underlying sentiment here. Prospective travellers to Australia should take note …

  • +1

    I'd go back to the hospital and try to find the staffer who told you it wouldn't be an extra charge

    with any luck they'll be able to talk to someone to 'adjust' the paperwork so shibby rite mite.

    perhaps not by phone - which is the easiest media in which to say 'no' and hang up

    go there in person and find someone you can speak to in person - keep calm, quiet voice, act respectful and ask nicely - never shout and demand - let them think about it, go away, talk to people, and hopefully come back with 'we've changed the record and fixed it so you don't have to worry about it any more'

  • -3

    as mentioned above, your best bet is not pay the bill, plead poverty and in a lot of instances the LHD will write off the debt. hospital medical staff have no idea about costs. the extra cost comes from admission as short stay unit is counted as a 'admission to ward' whilst ED is not

  • +2

    Everyone has already covered the fact that they didn't have travel insurance. So I won't bother with that.

    But from what you've said. You're saying that if they told you about the charge up front, you would have not taken the medical advice to stay for longer?

    Hope the kid doesn't run into this thread when they grow up.

    • +2

      Finances are big part of decisions dude, I suggest not to judge other's in that way. Who knows how difficult is OP's situation.
      Not that this was the case, and hopefully it wont be in future But

      If I had a critical condition that was costing me like crazzy amount for surgery like let's say an amount that I cannot even earn in my lifetime, I know I personally wont want to be a burden on my family for costs, and living like disabled. I might rather just choose to die early due to complications etc. in that scenario.

      2K $ is probably no where near this kinda scenario case example ofcourse, But again its just an example how people's finances influences their decisions so so much.

      How about the case if OP had insurance ? and then insurance refused to pay for this because it say an excluded charge in insurance terms & condition ? but same scenario where OP was told that it wont cost him any extra, (so he/she is under assumption it wont be charged and they wont have to worry about insurance not paying for it ?)

      • They can afford international travel holidays, they were not poor just made poor decisions.

  • +4

    Just pay the bill and move on

    • I agree with this, given that you are clearly not short of a buck, and as far as I can gather your total 'bill' is 3k AUD.

      'Build a bridge' and get over it, learn to get insurance next time, and rest comfortably knowing that you/anyone involved can still travel to Australia any time they want later in life without encumbrance.

  • +1

    Travel insurance, don't leave home without it !

  • +1

    Reading many people's comments talking about travel insurance got my attention. I'm travelling overseas to Norway later this year and was wondering if I'd need travel insurance and if anyone has any recommendations? Smartraveler says "Australia has a reciprocal healthcare agreement with Norway. You can access immediate emergency medical services. You still need private travel health insurance". So I need private health insurance to pay for EMS, or is EMS free and the travel insurance is for other things?

    • For me, I'd get the thing anyways.

    • Get a credit card with complimentary travel insurance with an intro deal that means it won't cost you anything, put your trip expenses on the card to meet the conditions / activate the insurance (some require activation), pay the bill before due so you don't rack up interest, then cancel it later before it costs you basically anything in card fees when you get back! (or at most like $70 annual fee).

      You need it, what if you have a medical episode in transit before reaching Norway at a plane stop location, for example. It also covers other things

  • What state, this may influence the rules/options forward.

    1. Informed financial consent was it provied? If IFC wasnt provided you may have rights for fee waiver, ask for a copy of the patient election form and check if a fee was provided prior to admission. In the absence of IFC it may be an immediate debt waiver/write off.
    2. They have left the country, no one is starting civil action for less than 50k especially if they need to pay crown solicitors costs/third party solicitor costs to recover
    3. Payment plan an option? Most hospitals will accept as low as $5 per week
    4. Is the family in financial hardship? Apply for financial hardship or compassionate grounds, usually submitted via a letter
    5. Write to your minister if the revenue team isnt providing an adequent response
    6. Partial payment , some hospitals may accept as low as 20 percent payment for payment in full.

    If the financially responsible person has left the country, its unlikely they will be able to link this as a federal debt and therefore prevent re-entry, or from receiving medical treatment again at the same hopsital (patient care is always > financial payment in aus).

    • +1

      "…at a public hospital in Brisbane."

      .. Brisbane is usually found in Queensland
      …which happens to also be the full name for the place OP's Location "QLD" as noted on their profile when clicking on their name. :-)

  • I’d honestly say that’s a fairly reasonable bill. I’d call that the cost of travelling overseas without insurance. If it was $15k I’d fight it but a couple of grand? Nah. You have to budget on holidays for unexpected expenses like this.

  • +1

    Just reminds me of the Bloody USA health care system, Totally Fu**ed up man. Hospitals are like big wall street corporations, who's goal is to make massive profits and not to make people's health better -that's just a side outcome in today's age.

    From what I've heard about USA health care system - there costs are astonishing because of the greedy Insurance companies, who bargain to hospitals that they bring millions of people's business so insurance company should get massive discounts of the hospital bills. Guess what happens next, Hospital jacks up the prices for everything, 1 paracetamol tablet - $30+ (one that costs like < $2-3 in stores for a pack of 30).

    This is another reason why I absolutely hate insurance companies, they are the reason (not sole reason ofcourse, but big reason) as to why all the people without insurances, end up paying jacked up sky rocket prices.

    In your case mate, I suggest you also don't budge $2K is not a small amount, you were clearly misrepresented/misinformed about the costs. If you signed papers saying price is estimate only and could change, you should also try to argue, why didn't it go down ?? since your kid didn't need to be in expensive rooms ?

    I am not sure if this is worth the fight for you honestly though, Ultimately its your decision.

    Australia's health care system is not that superior from US either, people here are not even Fu**ing allowed to choose to have operation or not, instead some old MF*** doctors decide here that patient is better of just dying early, or being hooked on prescriptions, rather than taking chance to fix the patient's health, do the surgery given patient is consent to it. But No the patient has to go overseas to Russia, China, India, Japan etc. just to be able to afford and get the surgery done, and live like a human, not a money fueling slave of drugs, and pharmaceutical corporations, AND THEN SELL THEIR KIDNEYS just to Continue being money fueling slaves for pharmaceutical's (and doctor indirectly)
    or DIE, heck even that is illegal too Dying peacefully. (search up about this topic, how Northern territory allowed people to die with nitrogen poisoning because some people wanted to die in least painful way, and in their desired way, But then Federal government overruled that making it illegal again)

    • Hi USER DC.

      Here's a bit of info from someone who has lived and worked in the US for a number of years, as well as abroad in Asia and Europe.

      Medical treatment in the US vs Australia without insurance in private hospitals costs very similar amounts, except that in the US, the treatments and standard of medications you access too is waaaaay higher than here.

      The US have both public and private hospitals, just like we do. You can choose to get free or paid-for medical care, just like we can. Private health insurance in the US for the same cost as what we pay for over here also covers a huge amount more services and coverage than we get - as well as most employers over in the US provide you with health insurance, even if you only work part time or casual. The insurance is provided as a perk of the job along with your salary and it's typically about the same standard as private health you'd be paying upwards of over $300 a month here for, doesn't matter if you earn $45K a year or $145K a year. You can also salary sacrifice to upgrade your insurance coverage to even better levels.

      Most people trashing the US healthcare system have never experienced it & a lot of those who bitch about it are giving extreme examples that are the exception to the rule of how it works, almost always being examples of people who walked into the most expensive private hospitals demanding immediate care when they literally could have gone down the road to a public hospital and received the same urgent treatment. I can tell you for example I paid more for an ambulance trip and admission to a hospital in Sweden (with travel insurance) than I did in the US (without any insurance). Both of those trips were cheaper than when I was billed for an ambulance when working interstate and getting kidney stones while in Adelaide a couple years back, which was around $1000 just to come out and something like an additional $6 per km for their round trip.

      Mid-range private health insurance in the US is $328 (a year) and it covers about 5 times as much as what our mid-range equivalents do, as well as full coverage for any emergency care at any private hospital in the country that can treat your emergency need, as well as heavily subsidized prescription medication (on top of the already subsidized amounts the government covers, which is similar to what our government does). That emergency coverage also includes dental work up to a few thousand dollars. No "wait times", no exclusions for prior or existing health conditions. Then on top of that, depending on the state you live in, you get part of that cost covered by the state government. The federal government also pays a portion of it if you are a low income earner, which in most cases is a family on $180K or less. Bust most of that is irrelevant, as the number of employers who don't provide that level of health insurance or dramatically better as part of a salary (even you only work part time or casual) is already very rare. For comparison, you can pay $300 a month here in Australia and still not even remotely get near the amount of coverage on offer (you absolutely won't get the same standard of care or access to medications, either).

      • I've experienced it with insurance and a 100k bill. US healthcare is the same as australian healthcare. They just don't have the same rights as an australian.

      • Yo forevs, I've worked in the industry for decades, and I would like to know what you mean by this:

        '… except that in the US, the treatments and standard of medications you access too is waaaaay higher than here [in Australia].

        Exactly what are these treatments/medications you speak of? I call shenanigans of the highest order ( I reckon that is complete crap). Please elaborate.

  • +2

    Completely against this. They didn’t have insurance. Why should my tax dollars pay for your lack of forthought.

    Yeah it sucks, pay the fee, hospitals aren’t free.

  • Too many humans ,period.Too many parasites on the health system.
    Migrants exploit it from day one on.(Using as a cheap GP hack) OP has unreal expectations. This is what happens when ppl deliberately target paradise as a new home.It gets exploited and the vital systems collapse.In Australia's case housing,health and environment are all casualties.There's more to come like transport gridlock & crime rate increases

    The treatment you got for the money you paid was better than even the USA would have dished up. Gratitude would be nice. I hear Johannesburg and Capetown is way better if your rellos are planning another holiday. Don't forget the travel/ health insurance.

    • Yo angle-grinder, re:

      'I hear Johannesburg and Capetown is way better if your rellos are planning another holiday …'

      LOLOLOL … steady on champ, I 'catch your drift', but be careful with posts like this in the future OK ;)

  • Lessons? Insure yourself and avoid the health system where possible. If anyone reckons standards are going to rise and costs are going to fall they are DELUDED. We have passed a sustainable model and swapped it for a cyclic migrant based system to cope with an overpopulated planet and an oversubscribed health system.

    Enter boomer blamers…..

    Watch Utopia (ABC) if you need guidance on the reality of bureaucracy at every level.

  • +2

    I havent read through the responses so apologies if i repeat some of the answers:

    1 The patient / carer did not receive informed financial consent - should be easy to fight (it was like a 10-20% variance this was 2k extra)

    1. If you get nowhere with billings department, escalate to the patient liaison or patient advocate or whatever that person is called at the hospital.

    2. Very likely the ED doctors and nurses got confused because they think Short Stay is part of ED (Thats how it runs where I used to work), but its actually a clever way for hospitals to get more funding from the Gov because short stay counts as an admission, so the Gov pays them for a 1 day inpatient stay on top of the ED funding. Public hospitals being chronically underfunded I don't blame them. Unfortunatetly in this case there is no Government payer.

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