Think of it as a litmus test!
[eBook] 6 Free eBooks on Israel-Palestine Relations and Conflicts @ Verso Books » All Comments
So true, I am glad this post came up to allow people to gain a fresh perspective on the Israel-Palestine relations and conflicts. It's just unfortunate that most will ignore the (Mod: Removed Inappropriate Site), do not consider cultural, historical and religious aspects contributing to the conflict and just jump on the bandwagon of what's trending.
you're sharing a website which has been, hacked and made a tool for zionist propaganda:
Haaretz reports it above, one of Israels leading news outlets.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-20/ty-article/.p…
@Soldier: You seem to be confused
made a tool for zionist propaganda
LMFTFY: Displaying the atrocities committed by barbaric terroristsWhen side A shares the Islamist ideology of another freedom fighter, please read Osama Bin Laden's letter to the American people from 2002, who declares the intention to kill Jews and Christians. And the Palestinian Islamist organisations explicitly stated the same. Hides behind civilian population, discriminately targets civilian population, puts babies in ovens, beheads babies, who's leadership are all billionaires as all the aid they get they mostly pocket for themselves and the rest goes to perpetuate terrorist activities which in turn generates more aid…
And side B shares the values and culture of the democratic western world, which include Australia buddy.
I find it very odd when people who value freedom, democracy and everything else which makes our life here in Oz great, support side A. I just do not get it.Please report any supporters of Hamas, Islamic jihad, Osama Bin Laden & Co
@Hamsahamsahamsa: This comment is full of so much BS it should be taken down. Babies in ovens etc is just propaganda, anyone who's been following this knows there is no 40 beheaded babies and that was just Israeli propaganda to justify the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians.
Noting you also haven't made a comment for 3 weeks since the games for Gaza post, and then suddenly Israel Palestine comes up and you are straight on it. What have you got a notification so you can come on here and spread your BS?
@Jackson: No not 40 beheaded babies, just 2 or 3 and that makes it ok. Sorry, my bad
By your logic you would argue that germany was justified in WW2 because they had more civilian casualties. Again you win here too. Soz fam
@Hamsahamsahamsa: You've already shown that you come to your conclusions without care for the truth, so you are right at home "barracking" for Israel and the mass murder of Palestinian civillians. Meanwhile:
- IDF soldier reads calendar with nothing but days of the week off it, and says that it's terrorist watch roster with their names
- IDF shows a pressure release pit from an underground water tank and says it's a tunnel that leads into a command centre under a hospital
- IDF shows a video of a movie being made in Lebanon years ago, and says it's current footage of Palestinians faking injury
- IDF gets an actress to pretend she's Palestinian and make a tiktok about how there's soldiers in Al-shifa hospital, except its obvious she has an Israeli accent
- Not to mention a week after going into al shifa hospital, there's no evidence of a "command centre" at all, I guess that makes the attack on the hospital a war crime
The propaganda war is real. Why run with the propaganda is one side is so virtuous and the other so evil? it shouldn't be necessary, but it clearly is because that statement isn't true
@Jackson: You obviously did not read the Osama's letter, maybe you'll read the Hamas Covenant 1988, where they explicitly state the intention of killing Jews, subjugating Christians under Islam, gee I wonder what that looks like. Again, my bad for bothering with facts (published by side A no less, remember who side A is? look back a few comments), don't let that confuse you, obviously my conclusions are:
without care for the truth
you also haven't made a comment for 3 weeks since the games for Gaza post, and then suddenly Israel Palestine comes up and you are straight on it
He's Hasbara mate
7 hours of terrorism for israelis.
75 years of yerrorism for Palestianians@zemphism: Isreal targets hamas and legitimate military targets, hamas targets civilians, that's a big difference. Isreal could genocide the Palestinians, or the millions of Arabs living within Isreal, but they don't, because they aren't genocidal maniacs. How many Jews live in "Palestine"? Oh wait, the "Palestinians" killed them all or forced them to flee. That's actual genocide.
@lew380: Ok genocide apologist.
stupid is Knowing the truth, seeing the truth, but still believing the lies.
@zemphism: It's a complicated issue, their is no one truth. Isreal is not genocidal, but they are willing to allow a lot of collateral damage, hamas are willing to sacrifice their own population for optics, they are willing and enjoy the slaughter of innocents, not all palistinians are hamas terrorists, but a large proportion at least support them.
This is true for all wars, we carpet bombed civilians in Berlin during WW2, we justified that because they voted and allowed the Nazis. Nuked Japan to save some of our troops. This isn't a whole lot different. The Jews aren't willing to lose many of their own to save some of their crazy neighbours under the boot of hamas. Is it fair and just? Hell no! It's war and isreal are pissed. Just be thankful our government isnt trying to start a war with China or some super power that will crush us.
@lew380: Are you ok with Palestinian children being killed by Israel? Without making “but Hamas” excuses?
@gamemaster: Listen to the son of Hamas co-founder as he denounces group at UN, and exposes 'Savage' indoctrination of Palestinian kids. Truth hurts when it comes from the Palestinians themselves. I wonder how you will justify saying it's false or Zionist propaganda, I'm sure you will find a way, despite truth being spoken at you by someone who is closer to the conflict, and has more knowledge about the conflict, than you ever were or have.
VideoOh and it's also a "Free" deal, but much better and less propaganda than these propaganda books
@Hamsahamsahamsa: The issue is the thousands of innocent Palestinians civilians being killed, many which are children. If you can’t show any empathy or humanity towards those Palestinian victims of Israeli bombing then your beliefs are toxic.
I’m against all violence against all civilians. I’d encourage you to share the same beliefs.
@gamemaster: Of course it's terrible that innocent civilians are being killed, it's a shame that you did not watch the video as you would've understood why this is all happening, and must keep happening to eliminate Hamas.
Here have another link to the Video, 30 minutes but so much more informative than the comments section.@Hamsahamsahamsa: So a Palestinian who defects to Israeli, converts to Christianity, moves to an America and hopes to get asylum isn’t going to speak poorly about Hamas. Talk about bias.
In any case I couldn’t care less about Hamas, I don’t support them. My concern is the innocent Palestinians who are being brutally and cruelty slaughtered by Israel. They are the victims and the ones we should support.
@gamemaster: Absolutely, we should all support the Palestinians, you can start by helping in any way to rid them of Hamas oppression. That is the number 1 cause of their suffering right now.
Shame you don't want to see the video, as it would explain a lot. Guess you are afraid of learning some uncomfortable truths.
BTW, I found the original video on the UN website, here's an updated link for your viewing pleasure, the co-founders son's speech starts at about 11:00
@Hamsahamsahamsa: You mean savage indoctrination like this video of Israeli kids singing for the annihilation of Palestinians: https://youtu.be/67KXRi4gCSw?si=l2nxrb01AWZhE6nY
@Jackson: You obviously did not watch the Hamas co-founders son speech condemning Hamas and their use of children
The video you've linked is from an esoteric little podcast, I'm not confident of its trustworthiness. The UN, on the other hand, you know from its stance on Israel (which is anti-Israel, if you are not aware), publishing such a speech on their site only makes it more trustworthy.You can find examples of extremism anywhere, I've never heard of the organisation that created that video even, not that it matters. looks like a cheap production meant to incite, which it clearly succeeded in doing, they did a great job working on their ad revenue (the podcast).
You seem to not understand or not care about the simple truth that there is a simple difference between Israel and Palestine:
If Israel puts down their guns there would be no more Israel.
If the Palestinians put down their guns there would be peace.I will not convince you, and that is ok, I just hope that if anyone who's on the fence on the matter of whether to support Islamist extremism or support Israel (which has the same values as Australia mind you), they would make the right choice.
@gamemaster: And the children will continue to be killed until hamas are eliminated. Hamas use children and women as human shields, while simultaneously provoking an endless war that they will never win. You don't have to be a wizard to realise that there is no solution with a crazy despotic antisemitic regime like hamas. Collateral damage is also a problem, and it should be discussed, but what would you have isreal do? How many isrealis need to die until you would approve of their retaliation? They have to fight back at some point, we can debate when but it's isreal making that call.
@lew380: "Hamas use children and women as human shields"
Here is some concrete proof that hamas uses children as human shields: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm
@ialam99: Common man, tied a kid to their jeep to stop the crazies throwing rocks and it will be investigated and heads will roll, isreal are civilised.
@lew380: "It's a complicated issue, their is no one truth. Isreal is not genocidal"
When a country cuts off food, water, electricity and fuel to an entire population then that feels genocidal to me.
@ialam99: You feelings have no impact on what is and what is not genocidal. It's a tactic in war to starve out your enemies, questionable but a far cry from genocide, I think isreal have that right here. I guess the first rule of war is don't start a war where your enemy has that power, hamas (and the Palestinians) started it.
The thing that really bugs me is the scenes of carnage to the Palestinians, men holding up their dead. Days ago they were cheering on the slaughter of Jews, beating and mutilating the bodies of civilians, and now they are reaping the repercussions and demand full sympathy. It's tragic for so many reason, the incoccent suffer because the Palestinians instigate, incite and support hamas still. Maybe there is no solution, violence seems to be the only solution from both sides. A horrible conflict.
@lew380: B'Tselem is an israeli human rights organisation that they have suggested there is only one state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea and that state is anchored in the principle of jewish supremacy (this was the term used by the israeli human rights group). Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have published reports that suggest Israel is an apartheid state. A simple google search can land you with comprehensive reports from the various human rights organisations. I struggle to understand how Apartheid Israel can suggest this all started on the 7th of October.
@ialam99: Educate yourself on the definition of apartheid, Israel has arab Israeli members of Knesset (the Israeli parliament), arab Israelis can vote, can attend universities, public transport, use all amenities and infrastructure. You are ignorant of the facts and just spew the garbage chanted over and over by the pro-Palestinian, anti Israel supporters. Shame on you
@Hamsahamsahamsa: I suspect Amnesty, Human Rights Watch and Harvard law school knows a thing or two about human rights and apartheid. Its interesting their comments around arab israeli citizen rights under israeli law, espically B'Tselem which is an israeli human rights organisation. These documents are hundreds of pages each so i suspect it'll take you a few days to educate yourself on the apartheid state that you're defending.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-…
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra…
https://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_de…
https://hrp.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/IHRC-…
@ialam99: “Israel is an apartheid state.”
Really? Do you know that there are Arabs in basically every important role in Israeli society?
Do you know there are Arab Supreme Court judges? Members of parliament?
Does that sound like an apartheid?
I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Nor those enlightened organisations for that matter. Intellectual degeneration is what it is.
@ialam99: You can view the Jewish desire for a Jewish state as some kinda "jew supremacy", but then you have to denounce the Egyptians for their Egyptian supremecy around the Nile region, etc. All states are based around the supremacy of some group or cultural/religious identity, be consistent. The Jews are allowed to have a country, no matter what the anti Semites claim behind their orgs.
@lew380: You've been a Zionist cheerleader on this forum for I don't know how many years now and you still can't spell Israel correctly.
If you want to have a hope in hell of people taking your copy-pasted propaganda even half-seriously, spell correctly otherwise expect for people to ridicule you endlessly when you attempt to sound authoritative on a conflict where you misspell one of the belligerent nation's names CONSTANTLY.
Though I like to imagine your constant "Is-real?" typo is actually a subconscious admission from your conscience that no, Israel is in fact, not a real state.
@Miami Mall Alien: Is a Zionist cheerleader someone who thinks that immigrants all the around the world don't need to die for their horrible crime of seeking a better life in a country of their choosing. Sure, a lot of immigration is pretty bad for the host country, especially mass immigration from shit hole countries. But I think the Jews, fleeing the holocaust of their people, have a right to flee Europe and the west, who betrayed them, and settle their own land and protect their own people.
So the only thing that tops your hatred of the Jews is your passion for grammr nazi obsession? Ironic hey.
Edit. Thx for posting that link, it was cool to see your massive rant on your hatred of the Jews, and bitter outlook on everything that Israel has done. Your assertion that isreal went around in 1948 and kidnapped all the Arab Jews and used them as forced labours(slaves maybe?) is hilarious. It seems you are just as unstable, irrational and bitter then as you are now. The spirit of the anti christ is strong in you.
@lew380: Lol, I'm not going to debate a clown who cannot consistently spell the name of a country correctly that's been all over the news for a solid month now.
Your assertion that isreal went around in 1948 and kidnapped all the Arab Jews and used them as forced labours(slaves maybe?) is hilarious.
I see you've taken a page out of Israel's book and just invented sh*t out of thin air but please, do quote the part where I said anything resembling your ridiculous claim. I'll wait…
It seems you are just as unstable, irrational and bitter then as you are now.
It seems you're still being negged to death now just like you were in that previous thread I linked from several years ago?
Mate, the tides have swung decisively against you and your little special group of eternal victims… no one cares about "Is-real?" and it's unreal perception of reality anymore.
The spirit of the anti christ is strong in you.
Not that I believe in any variety of Abrahamic death-cult bullsh*t but remind me again… who killed Jesus? Haha… don't give yourself a sprained ego from all of those mental gymnastics you have to engage in to believe in the ridiculously contradictory ideology you have.
@Miami Mall Alien: The tides have swung against who? I expect to get negged, the average person is an angry bitter anti Semite. God reigns, his people will endure. They will outlive and endure you and I. Going with popular opinion, in a tide of morons, has never, and will never go well. May God bless you mate, he stands at the door and knocks. Hes polite.
If you want a very balanced view on this subject and don't want to read the books, watch this BBC series on Youtube. It's an older TV series from a Jewish/American/UK reporter but very factual.
The 50 Years War: Israel and the Arabs
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpoX921v2BDLjkwGwRdop…..and from our own ABC …
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-13/before-the-war:/10297… (Foreign Correspondent October 2023)As the UN secretary-general, Antonio Guterres said about the Hamas attacks on Israel "it did not happen in a vacuum"
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-wa…The above TV series explain why it didn't happen in a vacuum.
In travelling around the Occupied West Bank I kept seeing these signs outside the illegal settlements.
https://scalar.usc.edu/nehvectors/how-to-see-palestine/b-is-… (Photo credit: HOW TO SEE PALESTINE: AN ABC OF OCCUPATION BY NICHOLAS MIRZOEFF)For somebody not from there, I used Google Lens to find out what it signified. On learning what it was I realised that it was "thumbing its nose at the surrounding population" and was offensive. Imagine what that's like, driving past that every day.
PS I'm a non-religious Anglo-Celt who returned from Jerusalem and the Occupied West Bank on October 4. I saw for myself how some Israel police badly treated some of the Arab population.
200+ upvotes versus a few handfuls of downvotes says enough.
Glory to Palestine.
upvotes vs cancelled downvotes, but sure… the majority are with hamas…. only they're not… you might be loud, but you're a minority. People want and expect Israel to destroy hamas. Am Y'Israel Chai!
@Mike911: Very telling your comment about Israel destroying Hamas is downvoted. They know exactly what Hamas is, and they openly support them. It's disgusting. Luckily they are the vocal minority. I stand by Israel. Never again.
@addison666: Agree!
Just number of votes on some irrelevant forum for this discussion somewhere on the internet doesn't matter to anyone.
I am truly admire what Israel is. No doubt, regarding that.
thank you for sharing.
"Balanced view" and BBC / ABC do not mix. They're extremely biased.
LIkewise to learn more about the UN, see https://unwatch.org/This.
wth do you know
lol now I understand the points of view here.
Can I ask what you would consider some non-biased news services?
Apparently the media bias fact checkers are the most biased of them all - totally disagreeing with you so blatantly. Disgusting!
Yes, BBC the most propaganda driven media company
"it did not happen in a vacuum"
Indeed.
Just note that most Mainstream Media here is owned by Murdoch and Globally, especially in the US.
Where are the free Books ?
about (in no particular order)Russia-Ukraine relations,
North Korea-South Korea relations,
Armenia-Azerbaijan relations,
India-Pakistan relations,etc.
I like how you wrote Russia-Ukraine RELATIONS
Also, Darfur, Iran and so many other places that do horrible things to entire populations of ethnic people NOW. No one cares unless they belong to that one religion
…the thing is, what we know is only the last 30-seconds of a 9-hour movie or something like that.
Imagine, we walked into a movie theatre, with the movie playing.
We see different people watching the movie in the theatre,
some have been there for 1-minute,
others have been there for 15-seconds,
there are also dead bodies there too…as they scribbled down
notes of what they saw in a few seconds,
and then when they passed away….other people erased their notes
or replaced their notes with other information.So, everyone is just arguing about the plot of the 9-hour movie,
based on 15-30 second snippet,
but not realising how the storyline actually was.We are just in one long movie…
PS:
I don't know why got you negged either.
(It wasn't me)
do you make the same posts when there are 15% off belkin?
"where are the xx deals"?
🍿
🍿
Thanks for sharing.
7 minutes and no zionists in the comments yet……they’re slipping
Hard for them to call this one Hamas propaganda when the author is a guy called Loewenstein
Cue the Uncle Joshua comments
What's an "Uncle Joshua" comment?
@King Tightarse: Yes, I just picked the most Jewish name that immediately came to mind. SHJ is of course the term actually used but it is an ugly term.
Thematically ‘Uncle Jeremiah’ would be better, but it’s loaded in Lowenstein’s favour, so would never catch on as an epithet.
Once again, as someone who will try bring some sanity to the comments. There are Jews and Israelis that are pro Palestine. There are people muslims and Palestinians living in the west bank and Gaza that are anti Hamas. Not wise using this as an argument unless you’re happy using it both ways
I know, I know. I was being a bit tongue in cheek there.
that scumbag loewenstein is a self hating jew… he is not at all a reliable source for anything!
thanks for weighing in. you come across as very level-headed, normal, and totally sane
wow
He's been completely discredited more than a decade ago.
"Self hating joo"
Surname and the fact he was born Jewish doesn't mean anything. Anthony Lowenstein is an absolute antisemite and anti-Israel. The same as Norman Finkelstein.
Again with the Antisemite card, it must be from a playbook as it’s almost like clockwork. When you can’t contribute to an argument you attempt to shut it down with the antisemite card. It’s a cowardly and disingenuous tactic.
@gamemaster: I can say the same things about you, that what you say (and how you say it) is a cowardly and disingenuous tactic. But I don't want to do it, it's your style of approach. How you did contribute? Nothing here to contribute, Anthony Lowenstein is a typical example of a self-hating jew. And nothing I can add to that. He is anti-Jewish and anti-Israel, and again I have nothing to add to that.
These are examples of antisemitism, and Anthony Lowenstein has plenty of them in his books.
Good enough for you?
1) Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2) Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3) Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4) Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
5) Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6) Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7) Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8) Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9) Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10) Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11) Holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the state of Israel.
Ukraine vs Russia is not a complicated topic. Israel vs Palstine is no different. It's not very complicated to work out what the right thing to do is.
Look at the various international laws and how diametrically opposed the actions of Israel are. It is very easy to tell who is subjugated to racism and fascism and which side is truly evil.
Anthony Lowenstein comes from Jewish heritage and is a critic of the Israeli oppressive regime. I've read "My Israel Question" and it was very informative and impartial with simple facts.
Thank you OP, will see if there are other interesting reads.
Look at the various international laws
Does the government of Gaza follow international laws?
100% they do, that October short holiday in Isreal was by the book!
Unfortunately, your negative vote isn't! Reported.
@poppingtags: Same reason you did in for the free sound of freedom post earlier this year, you disagree with the post correct ?
@gasman70: You can ez check on their voted page.
Theoretically, you shouldn't negative vote unless A. B. C and C as per Ozb' items and conditions.
In reality, Ozb has allowed negative votes on highly political or racial or sexual posts.
Why do people misspell Israel, as "Isreal". Are they illiterate?
@iguana: I can only speak for myself, and in this case, typing too fast during my lunch break haha
Would edit if I could but its locked now !
Are they illiterate?
Be careful about throwing stones… Oh wait, what's this…
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/14603396/redir
Why did you randomly capitalise the W in 'when'. ar yu illitterit?
@1st-Amendment: Looks to me like he missed a full stop.
Are you comprehension challenged, or visually impaired?
Why do people misspell Israel, as "Isreal". Are they illiterate?
A comical Freudian slip. "Is real?" No, it isn't. It's a fraudulent state who's existence is based on lies, genocide, a superiority complex, erasing the past and silencing dissent.
Gaza is being occupied by a colonial force. Resisting genocide is not illegal - it's an imperative.
Absolutely! It's so important that the Aboriginal Australians- who never ceded sovereignty- start slitting the throats of young adults at Australian music festivals too! /s
@Balmaino: Still, Ozs rejected the world's most peaceful community & let them down with their proud Racial Discrimination Act :(with John Howard as spiritual leader & blind followers)
@Balmaino: You joke, but don't be surprised if some white leftist "saviours" start suggesting this as a way forward for the "poor oppressed Aboriginal".
Fortunately most Aboriginals ignore the "saviour" baizou just as everyone else does!
Resisting genocide is not illegal
Neither is protecting your people from terrorists who want every single one of you dead.
@jv: are you comparing a hypothetical genocide to an actual one currently happening?
14k dead and counting.genocide
Yes, Hamas, the elected governing body of Gaza, have declared on many occasions that want all Jews dead.
@jv: Oh wait… are you comparing what Hamas declared to what Israel is currently doing?
14k dead just in this current massacre. 75 years of occupation. Let that sink in.
are you comparing what Hamas declared to what Israel is currently doing?
I don't know what Hamas declared. I wasn't there.
What I do know is they caused all this.
@jv: Come on JV. I'm sure you do know what they declared.
Yes, Hamas, the elected governing body of Gaza, have declared on many occasions that want all Jews dead.
By the way many are the Israeli politicians have been declaring the same for the Palestinians.
The only difference between the two is that Israel is true to their word in executing it.@ThePasserby: Your problem is assuming JV keeps track of comments they made within the previous hour
@ThePasserby: What do you think "from the river to the sea" means exactly? That's Jewish genocide right there
@BargainCowboy: what does from Sinaii to Furat means? educate and learn what the israeli anthem (in full, not just whats on google) says then speak please.
really good to learn the story before saying a word, this way you'll hide your ignorance.
@StarGrapper: I totally lost you there bud. I think learning history from TikToks is not a good idea…
@BargainCowboy: Agree, that is why I advise you learn it properly, and always listen to both sides then decide,
My grandparents who barely survived 48 and 67 didn't have tiktok that time!!!
@BargainCowboy: I think it is yet again a hypothetical genocide that has not happened. - Not wishing that it ever does.
There is a truer flip side version of this where Israel is keeping their word in executing their plan.It was part of the charter of the Likud political party and goes by " … between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform…
@jv: Not true, they mentioned in EVERY SINGLE MOMENT they want to end the occupation!! do not spread lies.
@ThePasserby: Watch the interviews with the captured "freedom fighters", it should be free Palestine from ISIS HAMAS or those who support and defend the kidnapping of children.
Worse still, did you bother to listen what HAMAS said about its own people while its leaders live in luxury and do enormous property developments for the rich in places like Turkey, $400,000 a unit? I suppose you support breeding and living like rats in poverty instead of a decent life? Taking UN aid resources instead of helping people?
@carrawa: wow, the leaders of Hamas them selves didnt know they own this…
oh by the way, only 3 leaders are outside of Gaza to do the politics that are happening right now. the rest are in the tunnels, not speaking from behind screen on OZBARGAIN, or from Hawaii like the son of BIBI
Colonial force = Hamas? Because they've been occupying Gaza since 2005…
Absolutely clueless
Gaza is being occupied by a colonial force
cOlOniAliSm!
Let's just ignore the well know fact that Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and that Hamas have been running the show ever since…
@1st-Amendment: Just to clarify, Hamas people are born, raised, and lived in GAZA their entire life, they cannot occupy them selves.
Read the dictionary, and learn the difference in meaning between Occupation and Resistant, waiting result…
Just to clarify, Hamas people are born, raised, and lived in GAZA their entire life, they cannot occupy them selves.
You are the one who mentioned occupation. Israel left Gaza nearly 20 years ago, what occupation are you talking about?
Read the dictionary, and learn the difference in meaning between Occupation and Resistant, waiting result…
Right. Now tell me how leaving Gaza almost 20 years ago and left Palestinians to self- govern makes Israel the occupiers…waiting result…
@1st-Amendment: So you started watching on which season? 7th of October or 20 years ago? Can you start from season 1? A little hint, 1917
I see, I see. Oh, and what was their excuse when they tried to assassinate the leader of / overthrow the democracy of the country that openly welcomed them and let them settle last time, just out of interest. While you're here.
@Ademos: oh, so you wake up now? what about assassination of Ahmed Yassin? or you have just started watching this season only?
what about
A literal whataboutism…
Tell me, do you think that when Hamas brutally raped and murdered hundreds of innocent children that it was justified in any shape or form?
@1st-Amendment: My friend, please go watch the reports leaked on youtube about the survivours of these actions.
First of all, no babies were killed,
Second of all, Hamas killed soldiers and men, then Israeli forces started their actions KILLING EVERY SINGLE LIVING SPECIES in that area, go search that. they them selves say it, not me, i am just repeating it for you.
Third, Israeli people raped the women and took it as a chance in that time, this was also mentioned but the raped women survived this, go watch the leaked videos.
cant Hamas rape hostages right now? why the israeli's let the first released hostage speak on media? (because they didnt know she'll say what she said and praise Hamas for their kindness), why aren't they letting any released hostage speak anymore?? (they learned their lesson).
please listen and read from both sides before speaking, media is not right in all aspects, it is biased and 100% forced to say what they are allowed to say only.
@1st-Amendment: Hello again,
since there are hostages been released last 3 days, i came back to ask you the question, did you check on the hostages reports?
The guardian said, that Hamas released hostages of Women and Children as part of the trade, on the other hand, Israel released hostages of (People aged 18 and under)?!?!?!?!
Anyway, Israeli kids and women said they had a great treatment that they have never imagined that will happen even in their best imagination scenario's, go check the reports, i am just repeating.
on the other hand, Israel have rejected to give medicine for sick (people ages 18 and under), those people lost their conscious and some went on coma due to lack of food, and their doctor told them, just drink water, no medicine no food.
Also, since you keep mentioning rape of israeli women, (which was falsified and proved to be Israeli survivors did it), go listen to the palestinian released hostages, and listen to the wildness they were facing, prisoners have the green light to take palestinian girls aged 16 or less, and rape them, beat them, humilate them, hunger them, and if required, amputate parts of their bodies!!!!. girls been raped repeatedly for years and years, somce girls were taken hostages at the age of 8 and released at 16 or 18!!!.
please, i beg you, wake up and stop listening to one side of the story, and listen for the otherside from the otherside sources for once! truth will shock you.
@StarGrapper: You're talking about 2004.
I'm literally talking about the 1950s-70s,
Start in Jordan here : https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1951/jul/21/fromthea…
And read through to more about it all here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
You know, when "your side" was welcomed with open arms, and in return assassinated kings, blew up airliners, and more before getting violently ejected. Again. All so they could sit in their new home complaining about how nobody wants to help them.
@Ademos: Excuse me, what are you talking about?
my grand parents were survivors of 1948 and 1967. and i know history because i lived it.
Anyway, i am saying they keep talking about assassination and bullshit, and Israeli terrorists are assassinating every single talker about them. even if of their own people.
@StarGrapper: I know you're new to the internet, but those little blue things are called links, and you read things they lead to. You can even learn things by doing it.
@Ademos: Thanks, very kind of you. have you used them before with the right source? try it, makes you feel good :)
@StarGrapper: So you're literally just going to ignore the decades palestenians spent killing and trying to overthrow the government of the country that welcomed them with open arms, until they were ejected with force by the military?
Cool, cool cool.
@Ademos: Were these Palestinians, you are referring to, named after the days of the week by any chance?
Hasbara has totally malfunctioned this time around. The new gen knows. Let's face it, there is no going back now.
"Colony: a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country."
What country did the jewish people come from?
Does the government of Gaza follow international laws?
Well they're "terrorists" aren't they, so no.
But the Israeli government, well now, aren't they supposed to be civilised.But the Israeli government, well now, aren't they supposed to be civilised.
Yes, they are hardly innocent in the scheme of things, but the protestors are brainwashed into supporting terrorism.
@jv: The protestors are wanting the innocent Palestinians to stop dying. Not sure how that equates to supporting terrorism.
@jv: So what is your suggestion? Kill all the Palestinians because they're all Hamas?
Just because someone cares for the innocent lives of Palestinians doesn't mean they want Israelis dead
@Randolph Duke: It gets worse. Imagine living a life that that's a normal thought in your head, not requiring further evaluation.
@gasman70: How can you claim that when Jews lived on the land under muslim ruling for centuries?
They were welcomed into Palestine when they were seeking refuge from their oppressors in Europe.
the only thing that needs to die is the zionism ideology of destruction and facism they are pushing.
So what is your suggestion?
I don't have the answer.
All I know is that nearly all the dead people would be alive today if Hamas didn't murder 1200 innocent people attending a concert.
@jv: Elected in 2006 when half the current Gazan population is under 18, meaning they couldn't even vote in that election. You're a terrible human being for justifying the deaths of civilians because probably less than a quarter of the current population voted for a government over 15 years ago.
@jv: Or it could be the protestors are appalled at 13-14k humans that have been needlessly murdered by the IDF.
If the deaths had stopped at 1200 on each side maybe there wouldn't be all these "brain-washed" protestors showing how they feel.Or it could be the protestors are appalled
But they are not appalled by the slaughter of Israelis?
I wonder why?
@jv: Great that you know how 100's of thousands of protestors feel about the death of innocent Israelis.
Hamas should not have killed Israelis and whoever the killers are, they SHOULD be brought to justice.
The troubling thing, and why Hamas probably carried out their attack is that many times terrorism/ violence works in achieving a result.
The Irish IRA killed people bombing pubs and it forced the politicians and sectarian leaders to do something.Great that you know how 100's of thousands of protestors feel about the death of innocent Israelis.
It's pretty obvious.
It is the same war and they are taking only one side…
So are you denying there haven't been 100,000+ protesting the Israeli action around the world?
Where did i say that?
seems a bit exaggerated…
first of all, that is not a denial.
second of all, I was referring to the Melbourne protests.
100,000+ protesting the Israeli action around the world?
So 0.001% of the population decided to protest and the other 99.999% didn't…
@jv: Unfortunately the great majority people can't be arsed to protest about any subject that they feel strongly about, be it pay rises, the climate, selling off public assets, building on flood plains, etc, etc, etc
@jv: are you suggesting that you can't be appalled at both?
or are you suggesting that there are equal number of deaths on each side? the numbers are significantly skewed.
@No Client List: Needlessly. I agree, they’d still be alive today if it wasn’t for the murderous acts of Hamas and many ‘ordinary’ Palestinians.
that have been needlessly murdered
Not needlessly, you forgot to mention the bit where over 1000 innocent civilians including children were brutally raped and murdered which created this issue.
@No Client List: You forgot to mention that Hamas run Health ministry in Gaza, according to their own admission, does not differentiate between Hamas fighters and normal civilians.
How many of those 14,000 are Hamas fighters?
How many of those 14,000 are Hamas fighters?
The proper question that needs answering is how many weren't.
@No Client List: If you have developed a secret technology that eliminates only terrorists in civilian clothing from a densely populated city, please do enlighten us. Every nation in the world would be interest in such technology.
@dealhunter52: Well I don't need any technology, secret or open source, to tell a 3 year old girl is most likely not Hamas.
@No Client List: But a plane shooting at a terrorist weapon workshop from 10,000 feet doesn't know that the terrorist has invited his family to his workshop. That's how the concept of humanshields work I think.
If terrorists are shooting unguided rockets at your cities, do you have right to retaliate or not?
@dealhunter52: What's your opinion on this scenario- 1 terrorist is in a sports stadium of 149,999 innocent people, but they don't exactly where, does the pilot blow the stadium up, yes or no?
No reply.
Ok, I'll answer it for you NOor is the Zionist answer Yes?
@No Client List: That's extreme isn't it?
Hamas had 1000s of terrorists in Gaza and Israel just left them alone, until they killed hundreds of innocent civilians in an unprovoked attack. Hamas has promised more of attacks like 7th of October on Israel, so they definitely need to be eliminated. It's war and unfortunately, collateral damage will occur. No one from Pro-Palestine supporters is questioning why Hamas is still shooting unguided rockets at Israel to this day.
10 times more of civilians died in conflicts in Syria, Yemen, Somalia or are dying currently in Sudan but no one is protesting at those innocent deaths because it doesn't fit in the anti-Israel or anti-Jew rhetoric. That's just the sad reality of it.
@No Client List: What about two buildings with thousand of innocent people in it? Do you fly your planes into them? Oh wait, we already have the answer to that…
@1st-Amendment: That terrorist atrocity was nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas, but a few Israelis in a van seemed to approve.
That terrorist atrocity was nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas
But what's the pattern here?
Hamas, ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Abu Sayaff, Boko Haram, Jemaah Islamiyah, Muslim Brotherhood etc etc…
Same shit, different colour jacket…
Same shit, different colour jacket…
I agree with you. Behind many wars and conflicts are religious zealots out to convert the other; Christianity has done it big time in the past but now normally does it by peaceful means via missionaries.
Europe is heading for internal power battles once again as it's populace changes and as Christianity declines, groups will seek to take advantage of the others ignorance and nonchalance of the new-comers intent.
The real issue is, who is it that makes the decisions regarding letting refugees, immigrants, cheap labour, etc into a country and why.
Europe is heading for internal power battles once again as it's populace changes
Which is actually more evidence of the exact same problem.
Mo' Muzzies, Mo' problems…
@dealhunter52: maybe the densely populated people shouldn't be occupied and blockaded in an open air prison? maybe the families that live in the densely populated area shouldn't have been displaced and had their homes stolen from them.
the population crisis there is a direct result of zionist occupation
@Soldier: Israel unilaterally left Gaza in 2005 for Gazans to govern themselves. Blockade started in 2007 because Hamas elected by Gazans wouldn't stop terrorist attacks from Gaza.
You need to read history before spreading anti-jew/anti-Israel misinformation.
@jv: What does "the Israeli government is hardly innocent in the scheme of things" mean, JV?
Isn't this a long-winded way to say they're guilty of something?
Would it be possible to discuss what they're guilty of without you saying "but what about Hamas?" as a deflection?
Isn't this a long-winded way to say they're guilty of something?
It's saying that there is fault in both sides, unlike what the protestors are saying…
It still doesn't excuse terrorism…
it still doesn't excuse terrorism
Wait, are you literally discussing what Hamas has done as a result to the question "Would it be possible to discuss what Israel are guilty of without you saying "but what about Hamas?" as a deflection?"
@jv: People have eyes, they can see for themselves.
I asked you 1. What Israel was guilty of and 2. If it could be discussed without referring to Hamas and you skipped 1 and you failed 2
Own goal speed run, but at least you're retaining the monthly post count lead
@jv: I believe the protesters are, majority and I'm assuming that there is always a 1% error rate in everything at a minimum, are supporting the civilians. There is probably some agitators who are supporting hamas, the vast majority i have seen are in support of Palestine aka the people/civilians.
@jv: not really, it may appear to look like that they are representing one side but its generally for all civilians. Those who consider it one sided are supporting the on going bloodshed. I haven't seen the vast majority (ofcourse there would be the few that take advantage) out there protesting saying they are supporting hamas. When they say stop the genocide its literally lunacy to say that constitutes supporting hamas, it just means stop the genocide.
but its generally for all civilians.
Could've fooled me… I can only see one flag being paraded.
@jv: That's probably because that's the one being murdered in the numbers… I dunno it might be that.
That's probably because that's the one being murdered in the numbers
It's a war that Hamas started.
They should be protesting about Hamas causing all these deaths.
@jv: in this event, yes. Overall this is not isolated, and as much as you might think that's what they should - the cold hard reality is that the civilians that they are protesting for are being murdered in the 000's by one side.
Does the Israeli government (which it calls itself a democracy and people of the civilised world)?
No. But West bank did and what good did this do to them? Other than having more settlements encroaching their land.
Gaza is not a country, it is an occupied territory, described as the largest open air prison on earth. Every drop of water and morsel of food that goes in requires Israeli approval.
It was Israel preventing any form of international presence in Gaza, including application of international laws describing what Israel is doing as “Apartheid”.
(https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-af…)
What is your point?
Your comment is very naive and full of rhetoric. I’m not saying pro or against, just saying you can clearly tell people who know what they’re talking about and people who are media forwarders.
@bravyboy: Apologies for being a naive media forwarder.
Apologies for being biased towards people who’ve been occupied for 75 years, kept in inhumane conditions for decades and who are being slaughtered at will whenever someone sneezes.
Please educate me
@Xizo: Okay I will educate you. When you say 'people who have been occupied for 75 years'. Define occupied? Which people? Are Hamas and PLO the same thing? Are Hezbollah involved? What about Jordan and Egypt? When and why was the term Palestinian coined, and what did it mean? What does the land of Judea mean? How much do you know about the 6 day war? Thoughts on Yasser Arafat? Whats daily life like in Israel as we speak - is it the same in all areas? Does everyone in Israel agree with the government? 'Slaughtered at will whenever someone sneezes?' - youre against this on all sides?
You have written a tiny summary point in one sentences summing up an incredible diverse, complex political, religious landscape with a 'media snippet'. The middle eastern conflict isnt two people sitting in a room fighting - its as complex as it comes. Theres different religious and political sects within each country/territory - if you feel like you can speak for all of them then you are NAIEVE
@Soldier: Dont think you can summarise it like that - its not a kids storybook! This was actually the British Mandate of Palestine (interesting if you look up the historical context of the word Palestine). This was a hardly occupied land but was a COLONY of Britain, which had a history of people being invaded, kicked out and recolonised, all the way from Judea, through the Romans, Babylonians, Ottomans, British etc; I'll let you define when we started 'counting' :)
Some other interesting questions to ask about that time is who was living in Judea - which is about 500 years before Islam was invented. Also interesting to study the decreasing population of Jewish people in all the surrounding countries over the last 100 years and why - just conversation starters.
Anyway, the people that are called Palestinians today actually only started identifying as that in the 60s. There has been many wars, ceasfires, peace agreements in that time. Atrocities on both sides.
But my point being - the above should show you how complex this all is and I want you to keep asking yourself if you actually understand the issue.
Gaza is not a country, it is an occupied territory
With an elected governing body that commits terrorist acts on innocent people at concerts…
@jv: Yeah, terrible. The primitive Hamas killed 1400 Israelis, 400 of them were SOLDIERS (look it up, every single name of them is published).
So, 1/3 were a valid target. Israel killed 15,000 innocent people of whom 7 thousand children buried under their homes, and failed to present any evidence about how many Hamas fighters it killed.
EDIT. Forgot to state the obvious, that Hamas seems much better at hitting its targets than one of the most advanced militaries on the planet
Actually, scratch that. After storming Al-Shifa hospital, they did show 15 guns and a calendar as proof of terrorist activity.
That is not to mention, as published in Haaretz, many of the festival goers were shot by blind Israeli fire. Something they’re good at.
So, if your heart bleeds for “innocents”, who’s the terrorist?
@Xizo: Ahh yes, the number game… if that's the case we should have all been on the Nazi side in WWII, Brits killed wayyyy more civilians than Nazi Germany. Actually, that's a valid comparison, as Hamas are literally Nazis
@BargainCowboy: Funny you say that. Hamas was FOUNDED and FUNDED by Israel, something Netanyahu was bragging about until recently. You can draw historical parallels from that as well of the free world funding Nazis.
I’m not trying to argue with you, the situation is morally crystal clear, there’s no point trying to change the mind of genocidal apologists.
I’m only responding with established facts for others to read.
If you want to keep arguing that it is ok for Israel to bomb the hell out of Gaza and clear it of every last remaining human through killing or displacement (like it did with the rest of the land it occupies), the pleas go ahead, I’m not going to argue.
If you’re trying to say Israel is forced to do what it’s doing out of fear that those people form an “existential threat to its existence”, so better wipe them off the face of earth as their existence doesn’t matter anyway, be my guest. I swear I’ll even upvote you!
@BargainCowboy: Worth mentioning as well that this is a WAR. All innocent lives are atrocities - all sides. But there are thousands of rockets being fired into Israel which they successfully defend themselves with. What if they werent? Would then the victim card fall the other way?
If New Zealand shot 5000 rockets into Australia and they were being intercepted, would we say its okay only X amount of people died?@bravyboy: Successfully defending themselves from what? The attack on Israel was unprovoked. But wait, that does not sit well with the narrative…
@BargainCowboy: Unfortunately the easy answer to this is 'its resistance' or 'its uprising'. Its not - its terrorism. Innocent kids, innocent civilians. Brutal and indiscriminate. Some of the people killed were pro-peace advocates. Atrocities and terrorism on both sides should always be called out. Some people arent actually against terrorists, theyre only against terrorists from the other 'team'. Simpletons unfortunately.
@BargainCowboy: " Brits killed wayyyy more civilians than Nazi Germany"
You are not a very intelligent individual
@WinstonWithAY: Intelligent enough to have an argument, not a plain ad hominem… Can you refute that? Casualties of war are not an indication of who's just
@BargainCowboy: The Nazis killed over 11 million civilians in the Soviet Union alone. You made a claim with no evidence. Imagine defending Israel so hard you engage in Holocaust revisionism and Nazi apologia. Again, not a bright individual
Then on top of that count all the civilians killed in Greece, North Africa, Yugoslavia, France and the low countries, Poland, Norway etc. It's honestly disgusting that you would make such a claim, what an insult to those who died at the hands of fascist tyranny.
Also 3 million German civilians died in WW2, even if you assume all of those were killed by British bombers or the British Army your claim is still colossally retarded
So, 1/3 were a valid target
That's not how it works. Even in war you are not free to just murder any enlisted soldiers you feel like without following a specific set of rules of engagement.
Also Israel has national military service, meaning EVERYONE over 18 has to register for military service. That doesn't give you the right to murder them at a music festivalwho’s the terrorist?
That fact that you wrote what you did makes you a terrorist sympathiser.
@Xizo: This is horrible. If you want me to re-write this for you I can.
"Hi my name is Xizo. I am against all innocent people being slaughtered. I don't try justify one innocent person by pointing out another, especially when its hard to verify. I'll do my best in future not to come across as a terrorist defender for any side'
@bravyboy: That’s right. Take my upvote.
Let me add one more thing. In alignment with strict Islamic teachings of never killing any non-combatants regardless the circumstances, I can say, may the Hamas perpetrators burn in hell if they deliberately killed babies or any innocents, or even if they know there’s a high chance of killing them with blind fire.According to many eyewitnesses and Israeli press, many of the festival goers were killed by blind Israeli helicopter fire. Heard of the Hannibal Directive?
Can you say the same for Israel carpet bombing the most densely populated place on earth where everyone is a refugee fleeing Israeli ethnic cleansing?
If you say yes, we agree then.
Occupied by Hamas, closed off by Egypt… Go speak to A-Sisi
How do weapons and explosives get in then?
How do weapons and explosives get in then?
More importantly, how do lots of brand new American weapons get in. Now there's a chestnut that needs to be cracked…
Into Gaza? Show me.
It's hard to get reliable info from biased media, but this raises questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMmOroyLVFI
An IDF soldier posted a photo of an M16 taken from Hamas.
Could be fake news, but how can you tell these days?
Doesn't take much thought to work out why Gaza isn't referred to a ghetto, either. Which it essentially is.
why would they, international laws promised their own government to be officially formed in 1947, fast forward to today, this is where we got to still calls for 2 states solution.
i find even s.tupid to use term "government of Gaza" as how can be a government in an open-air prison (this term also belongs to President Carter after he visited Gaza said, it is the biggest open air prison in the world)why would they
why would they what ?
"Does the government of Gaza follow international laws?"
I think they obviously don't.
Do you think they do?
it is the biggest open air prison in the world
so you support the terrorism acts then?
@jv: well sounds like you support genocide as well. so facts matter not what it sounds like.
What Israel does is perfect match with the definition:
genocide
/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocidesthe deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.What Israel does is perfect match with the definition:
genocideSame as what Hamas says that all Jews should be killed…
But you think that that is OK…
What Israel does is perfect match with the definition:
No it isn't, not at all.
Israel has nuclear weapons, if they want to wipe Gaza off the map it would take them about 15 minutes.
So they clearly not 'aiming to destroy the entire Palestinian population' otherwise it would have already happened.
But sure make up whatever stupid stories you need to to justify the support of terrorism…
@1st-Amendment: 'Because Israel aren't (profanity) nuking what remains of Palestine it means they don't want to genocide them.'
Truly astounding levels of genius. There can't be any other possible reason. It doesn't matter that numerous current and former Israeli government ministers have openly stated they want to wipe out Palestinians and completely take over Gaza multiple times. I guess you're right.
Truly astounding levels of genius.
Words have meanings. I can't help you if you don't want to learn what those are
It doesn't matter that numerous current and former Israeli government ministers have openly stated they want to wipe out Palestinians and completely take over Gaza multiple times.
Israel used to occupy Gaza and didn't wipe it out, in fact they supplied aid to them before Palestinians started trying to murder them in return. Even now in the middle of the war they are still offering aid to Palestinians. That's an odd way to commit genocide don't you think?
Nothing you claim matches reality.Now since Hamas openly admit that they want to wipe Israel off the map, therefore by your own logic this is an attempted genocide?
I guess you're right.
Yes, because I learn what words mean before I use them so as not to make a fool of myself. You may learn this trick and use it next time.
@1st-Amendment: You said Israel isn't planning to wipe out Palestinians because they aren't using nukes.
"Israeli minister's call to 'erase' Palestinian village an incitement to violence, US says" - https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-ministers-…
"‘Nakba 2023’: Israel right-wing ministers' comments add fuel to Palestinian fears" - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-ri…
"Israel-Palestine war: Likud MP calls for Gaza to be 'erased from the face of the earth'" - https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-liku…
Those are just a few examples.
Hamas's actions on October 7th were genocidal, they went around slaughtering innocent civilians, and Hamas have openly stated that they want to genocide Jews. The thing is, Israel is saying the same thing, and they are doing it on a much larger scale. Half of Gaza's population is under 18, so if you are happy to justify the murder of children then have fun. It's incredible that people like you think genocide happens instantly and isn't built up over time, which can take decades, maybe listen to concerns of people who have made it their life's work to study genocide instead of being a moron:
https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potenti…You said Israel isn't planning to wipe out Palestinians because they aren't using nukes.
That's right. Now let's see how you evidence stacks up…
Israeli minister's call to 'erase' Palestinian village
Now let's read the full quote:
"I think that Huwara needs to be erased. I think that the state of Israel needs to do it, but God forbid not individual people."
So not people. Did you read that bit? Because that's kind of important if you are claiming genocide… hard to do that when the call specifically rules out people, and it's only one village.
‘Nakba 2023’: Israel right-wing ministers' comments
Now let's read the full story:
"Ministers who made the comments are not in the war cabinet".So a back bencher like Pauline Hanson or Lydia Thorpe says something stupid and you run with that?
This is your smoking gun?
Likud MP calls for Gaza
"Distel Atbaryan, who belongs to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, resigned as minister on 12 October"
As above, comments from the back bench, not policy positions…
Hamas's actions on October 7th were genocidal, they went around slaughtering innocent civilians, and Hamas have openly stated that they want to genocide Jews.
That's right, it is Hamas' policy position and has been for decades. See the difference there?
The thing is, Israel is saying the same thing
Nope, because the key difference is that a handful or people saying something is not an official policy position from the nations leadership.
It's incredible that people like you think genocide happens instantly
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and YOU have failed to provide any. This is not my problem
maybe listen to concerns of people
tRuSt ThE eXpErTs…
Here's a pro tip for you. When someone says this 'could', or 'may', or 'might', or has the 'potential', you need to take it with a huge grain of salt. These types of headlines are designed to suck in gullible people and it looks like it worked a treat on you.
instead of being a moron
Ooh… when you can't argue your case with facts, resort to personal attacks and see how that works out…
@1st-Amendment: They have already dropped bombs equivalent to more than 2 nukes and have threatened to continue their bombing once the pause ends. How is that not genocide ?
They have already dropped bombs equivalent to more than 2 nukes
No they haven't. These are the types of exaggerations that make people like you sound unhinged
How is that not genocide ?
Because by the very definition of the word ie 'with the aim of destroying that nation or ethnic group' does not qualify.
Words have meanings. Try and learn what they are if you want any credibility.
Gaza is the size of a small town, Israel could literally wipe it off the face of the earth if they wanted to. The fact that they haven't means they don't want to and all your assertions exist only in your head.
Israel must be treating Palestine pretty badly for Hamas to seem like the better option to submitting to Israel to hash out a solution.
Israel must be treating Palestine pretty badly for Hamas to seem like the better option to submitting to Israel to hash out a solution.
Seems like you think killing innocent people at a concert is justified…
@jv: It's funny you say that because Israeli attack helicopters also shot at Israeli concert goers, the pilots justified it in their minds by telling themselves it was maybe their only chance to kill the Hamas soldiers. So I guess both Israel and Hamas agree that under certain circumstances it is justified to kill innocent Israeli concert goers.
@jv: I'm not. But Hamas is an Israeli creation. The ball has been in Israel's court for 75 years now. Israel could have made other choices over the last 75 years with regards to Palestine and Hamas wouldn't exist. If they made certain other choices there would be peaceful two state solution by now.
@jv: I'm just pointing out that Israel also justified shooting Israeli concert goers. And that Israel has created a situation in Palestine where terrorism seems like the right choice. Palestine hasn't been in control of the region these past 75 years, Israel has.
But Hamas is an Israeli creation
Now I've heard everything….
What about ISIS? Did Israel create that too?
@jv: The US could have made different choices and ISIS and the Taliban wouldn't exist today. In a sense they exist today only because of choices the US made.
@jv: And in a sense the US exists today because of choices the British Empire made. And the British Empire exists because of choices made by the Roman Empire. And if the Parthian Empire made different choices then the Roman Empire wouldn't have ever existed.
@AustriaBargain: You are aware that Israel tried to make peace quite a few times since 1947? The Palestinians declined 9, yes 9 peace offers of a 2 state solution. It's hard to make peace when one side is not able to accept any solution besides the complete annihilation of the other side.
@jv: Funny how the word innocent only comes up when the festival goers are concerned, many of whom were killed by Israeli forces, yet it is totally justified when 15,000 innocents are buried under the rubble of their primitive homes where they were seeking shelter.
@jv: Israel helicopters and tanks went on a killing spree, murdering Hamas and its own civilians. Have you not heard of their Hannibal directive ? I suggest you look up and educate yourself
‘Israel's Haaretz newspaper on 20 October published an interview - only in its Hebrew edition - with a man called Tuval who lived in Kibbutz Be'eri, but who was away on 7 October. Tuval's partner was however killed in the events.Haaretz reports: "According to him [Tuval], only on
Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling
houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages - did the IDF [Israeli army] complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be'eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and
her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble."Israel helicopters and tanks went on a killing spree, murdering Hamas
You mean after Hamas started the war with them?
What international laws are you talking about? I find when people make that argument they are people who haven't read or understand international law and don't understand how international court systems work, how most resolutions at the UN are non-binding and not legal, how International court advisory opinions carry no legal weight and are essentially amicus briefs about untested legal doctrine, etc. I feel like a lot of people just see someone say "this is illegal" without even gaining the simplest understanding of what the law is and failing to understand that there is no black and white to the law, that it is open to a wide berth of interpretation. Take for example some people having the legal opinion that Donald Trump isn't allowed to run for office due to S3 of the 14th Amendment of the USC. 99.99% of all the times anyone says Israel is doing something illegal it's is something that is potentially illegal but if you read the actual law and look at the small amount of caselaw in the international community those arguments typically fall to pieces. Just something to keep in mind. When you say that Israel is diametrically opposed to various international laws you are clearly not someone who has done a deep dive into anything surrounding the laws because no reasonable good faith person would do that. You start falling into some weird place of just being some propogandist who isn't interested in actually doing any research, isn't interested in looking at the laws, isn't interested in looking at the various case laws and seeing if and where they apply. Anyways just something to keep in mind. And look my background and education is legal - though I'm not claiming to be arguing from authority. I just think that most people honestly don't understand how complicated international law is and when you say that it's not you're just making an argument from belief and not reality. Much love to you but you should do better to argue from a rational standpoint instead of a place of belief. Looking forward to this being downvoted despite me being, I hope, somewhat reasonable and decent as the community on this site can be a bit ugly at times and we all devolve into some 4chan like community. But hey what do I know?
Also Lowenstein being of Jewish heritage is pretty meaningless. Candace Owens and Jesse Peterson are both of African American heritage and have no issue basically speaking unhinged white supremacist talking points. My background is Muslim and here I am trying to explain that making the argument that Israel does a lot of illegal stuff isn't really true. But my guess again is that no one will care. Everyone in this conflict has already decided what team their on and there's a huge weird gulf between each side with so much polarization. And I don't think it even helps. If the goal is to try to get Israel and Palestine to get together and make peace everyone polarizing right now is not going to do anything but delay that which ultimately hurts the Palestinians more than anyone as it will maintain the status quo which is much worse for Palestinians than Israelis. Which is why I do call out stuff like this a bit - if you want to know my motivation - as I think this rhetoric of just trying to make the other side seem like unhinged N@zis is not going to help either side reach across the aisle to find a way to make a real peace.
But anyways you all feel free to downvote me for trying to be a moderate rational person. Much love to you all.
Don't bother, some of it is plain ignorance but some of it is pure anti-semitism.
Wood 'drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth.' You got that from Vickers, 'Work in Essex County,' page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter? Or do you…is that your thing? You come into a bar. You read some obscure passage and then pretend…you pawn it off as your own idea just to impress some girls and embarrass my friend? See the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One: don't do that. And two: You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f——n' education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library.
Was this meant for someone else? I didn't quote anyone. I've never even read Vickers. I didn't even talk about someone named Wood or mention anything about "inherited wealth." What the heck are you talking about bro?
@rightguy: I'm just joking about. I like what and how you write, even when I don't agree with every point you make. It's always an interesting read. My shitpost is a Will Hunting quote from the movie Good Will Hunting. tldr. It's a backhanded compliment - an appreciation of your intelligence and participation. Genuinely. It's said ironically. Guy in the movie is a dick - you are not.
@seamonkey: Sorry bro - my bad. Hadn't seen that movie in years and honest to God can't even remember that reference. Much love to you and yours. Also can I just take a moment to be reminded how we lost a great guy in Robin Williams. That one still hurts.
@rightguy: Your words had value and I was using that as an easy way to shitpost. Really what was going through my head is how much ozbargain has changed over the last 15 years or so. The seriousness of people on posts about saving a few bucks is next level these days. I really need to check out the forums these days - I'll bet the younger generations are bringing it. I'm old af. That's the disconnect you witnessed. 😂🤣 Have an awesome weekend mate.
👏
But my guess again is that no one will care.
You might be surprised. Some of us still lead with trying to understand first rather than choose a side. Appreciate you articulating the problem with the statement as you saw it, in as respectable way as you could.
I've recently finished a book about how contempt is corroding democracy, and how it has become the currency of the internet to divide along contentious issues, gather in likeminded groups and utterly write off the beliefs, motives and inherent value of those who oppose us.
The Israeli/Palestine situation has always been complex and fraught with difficulty - both sides believe they are in a fight for existence. It's hard to see any easy solution, despite the strong opinions of those that argue exclusively for either side.
The solution is talk to Israelis and Palestinians and figure out what they want and what they're both willing to give and do to get what they want. There's a joint poll that comes out regularly that does this and it's pretty clear what needs to be done. Israeli Arabs are clearly willing to do some work to bridge the gap and find trustworthy partners. The problem with making peace at the moment is who speaks on behalf of the Palestinians - is it the PA or Hamas or both? At least the Israeli government for all its issues with the current government has a single unified legal government that can make negotiations. The fracture between Hamas and the PA has really stalled any ability to make peace. I think it will be good to see Hamas go and hopefully Netanyahu and Abbas can be ousted as well. We clearly need new blood and new voices. The previous Israeli government was the first one in history with Arabs in its coalition. That was historic. Hopefully we can see that again in whatever eventuates once this current conflict is over.
If you want to read the most current joint poll here it is https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Summary%20Report_%…
The solution is talk to Israelis and Palestinians and figure out what they want
That has been happening for the past 80-odd years…
Israel would like to be left in peace, Palestinians would like Israel and all Jews wiped off the map.
Israel's neighbours initiate conflict, Israel does what it needs to do to secure the safety of its people.
Palestinians have been offered numerous deals over the years and they declined each one. It's not hard who the bad guy is in the story, even the Egyptians don't want them in their country. Why do you think that is?
@1st-Amendment: It really hasn't been done. For the most part Palestinians have been used as a chip - first by Pan-Arabists who wanted to make an Arab state but after 1967 and 1973 that was all but abandoned and Egypt put the nail in that coffin when it accepted the Sinai back for peace. Then Palestinians were used by the Soviet Union as a chip against American interests in that area post-1967 (as before that America had little to do with supporting Israel) until the Soviet Union fell apart and then we ended up with a potential peace deal that probably would have gone through if not for Rabin's assassination.
Then in the 2000s you had a chance for peace again but now the Palestinians were being used a chip by Iran to go against American interests and that's sort of how it's been for a few decades now.
But honestly we haven't been listening to Palestinians or Israeli-Arabs or Israelis. When people bring up this topic they typically talk about Chomsky or Saod or more recently someone like Finkelstein. The people dictating a lot of how we in the West think about these issues are other people living in the West who have no skin in the game and won't ever have to deal with the reality of living in the solution that gets created. People who march in pro-Palestinian marches are typically listening to Palestinian voices that live over here and might be second or third generation removed from having lived in those lands. We need to foster a dialogue between Israelis (Arabs and Jews) and Palestinians. I think Israeli-Arabs are a key ingredient in making that happen. We clearly have to get rid of Abbas and Netanyahu as they are two men who have no trust with one another. And we ultimately need a legitimate Palestinian government that can speak on behalf of its people so that a negotiation can actually take place.
I get your point. I think though that we have to continue this process. You're right 80 odd years has gone by. But a lot of the people who have been sitting at these tables are the same people who have been in charge for at least 40 of those years. We need new blood and trusting relationships. Hopefully that will happen in the aftermath of this mess at the moment.
As for the bad guy - yeah I would say that the Palestinian government and the leadership has been corrupt and stupid to not go back to its people with some concept of "hey, we will never get 100% of everything we want and we need to compromise." They have probably failed the worst out of the bunch otherwise we'd have a two state solution. I think the radicalisation of the right wing in Israel has also been a bad guy as all it does is perpetuate the ongoing crisis and pass this solution on to future generations where it could be solved reasonably now. There's plenty of stupidity and incompetence to go around. But the reality is that the Palestinians are the ones who suffer the most from the incompetence and stupidity so their leaders are absolutely far more to blame because ultimately Israel's maintenance of the status quo is not damaging its people to the extent of the Palestinians maintenance of the status quo. Palestine could be a prosperous country like Israel. Gazans could be wealthy but instead their cities, even before this mess, were broken down and suffering from poor infrastructure because of a massive incompetent government that wasn't interested in actually governing its population and improving their conditions or lives.
@rightguy: Well written rightguy….as Biden has said (regarding protecting their "interests" in the region) "if Israel didn't exist we would have invented it".
Maybe creating two states would result (finally) in peace for the Israelis and Palestinians, but the only side that can in reality make this happen is Israel.
However, when their right wing governments approve of the Yinon plan of a Greater Israel, rebuilding the Temple and want a Jewish-only country, it doesn't indicate that they sincerely want to have any Palestinians/ Christians amongst them and they will drive everybody else out, no matter how long it takes to achieve their true intent for the region.Then you also have the fundamental American Protestants looking forward to Armageddon and then converting the remaining Jews, so they pray for Israel and back it to the hilt no matter what it does, so the prophecy comes true.
Israel (as a country) commits what are, objectively speaking, war crimes. There's really no reason to write an essay defending them - they bomb and murder civilians, they claim self-defence on issues that are not legally self-defence on an international level, and they use collective punishment to attempt to flush out Hamas members (again, a war crime).
this rhetoric of just trying to make the other side seem like unhinged N@zis is not going to help either side reach across the aisle to find a way to make a real peace
Israel is not going for peace. They are going for a genocide, and have been inching towards it for over 7 decades. It is, unfortunately, as simple as that.
What war crime does it objectively commit? Can you clarify what that crime is because I could just say that Australia commits what is objectively war crimes. Also a country cannot commit war crimes because a country cannot be brought to court - only individuals can commit war crimes so how can you even say that a country objectively commits war crimes when there's no such thing as a legal framework where it's possible to bring a country to court to have a trial.
Your comment that Israel uses collective punishment is silly. To prove a crime you need to prove that someone in the Israeli military has the mens rea to commit collective punishment. Then you have the issue that we have clear evidence of Israel taking actions to warn people prior to bombings be it with phone calls, flyers, knock bombs, etc. To prove a crime you now need to show that the intent of an Israeli commander (because again you can only charge commanders and not the nation with a crime) is to hurt civilians. And if you were to bring an Israeli commander into court and charge them with the crime you just claimed they committed they would say well we tried to limit civilians casualties by doing this and this and this and this. And they would show evidence of that in the court. And remember this is beyond a reasonable doubt as it's a criminal court. It would be very hard for a prosecutor to successfully show either mens rea or that there wasn't sufficient attempts to limit civilian casualties. And the case would fall apart.
This is why I think it's silly to say that Israel is committing war crimes because you might not like what they are doing from a moral standpoint but they are actually following some interpretation of International Law in this campaign and they are doing a good enough job to at least skirt the line of committing war crimes. And you saying they are committing war crimes when any rational person would know that what they're doing wouldn't be able to be considered a crime in any international court is silly. What you should be doing is just saying you don't like what they are doing because you think it's immoral. That's a good faith statement based on your reaction to the situation. You saying they are committing war crimes or even genocide is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding various international laws like the Geneva Convention or the Genocide Convention.
You are making a very poor argument and ultimately you saying that this is just simple when you clearly don't understand an ounce of how the laws or legal systems work doesn't do anything but present that you're operating in bad faith and choosing emotions over rational thought. And hey I have no issue with people choosing emotions over rational thought but I dislike when people transfer that emotion over into the realm of logic by then channelling that emotion into a legal argument. Much love to you but seriously don't do that bro. Just leave it as an emotional argument which is what it is and save the legal rhetoric for people who are willing to deal with the reality of what the laws are and how the legal systems work.
@rightguy: Allowing the occupation of the West Bank and allowing Israeli "settlers" to kill Palestinians in the West Bank are international crimes.
@AustriaBargain: Occupation of West Bank is an international crime? How? The Geneva Conventions allow for belligerent/military occupation. Are you saying that the Geneva Conventions don't exist? And there's an explicit legal declaration between both Israel and the Palestinians that clearly dileneate roles and responsibilities regarding the occupation. Are you saying the Oslo Accords aren't a legal agreement between the two parties or that they don't exist? I'm extremely confused by how you believe that a military occupation is an international crime but would welcome your argument.
As for your second claim, I don't believe Israel has a legal policy of letting settlers kill Palestinians in the West Bank without suffering criminal consequences. It looks like when violence happens that they are investigated and sometimes charges are brought and sometimes they aren't where a clear reasonable self-defence claim can be made. This seems similar to Australian or American or any legal code. Not sure how it's an international crime. And yes where an occupation happens any member of that occupied group has the right to no longer remain a civilian and fight against the occupation by becoming a military combatant but once they do that they lose all protections as a civilian and then can be subject to being killed in combat by enemy combatants. I don't claim to know Israeli law but your statement is about International Law and there would be nothing in the International Law stopping a settler from killing an enemy combatant if they were to engage in combat. I would imagine that any Palestinian deaths in Area A would be under the legal auspice of Palestianian laws and Area B & C would be subject to Israeli law. But your statement about it being an international crime doesn't make any sense. What code of international law are would the settler be breaking even if they were to go out and kill a civilian Palestinian as an act of murder? Like when Jeffrey Dahmer killed people he wasn't committing any international crimes he was committing state and federal crimes where he resided. I don't believe anyone has ever claimed that Jeffrey Dahmer was an international criminal - just a criminal of the place where he resided. So I'm lost with what claim you're trying to make here.
@rightguy: The Oslo Accords, between Israel and the PLO, aimed to establish a framework for the gradual transfer of governing responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Israel to the Palestinians. However, the implementation of the Oslo Accords and the resolution of issues surrounding the West Bank and its status remain contentious and subject to ongoing disputes between the parties.
Instances involving violence in the context of an occupation may raise questions about adherence to international humanitarian law, especially concerning protections for civilians under occupation.
@AustriaBargain: Again - your claim is that these are international crimes. Are you rescinding those claims or sticking to them?
Instances of violence doesn't mean a policy of it and those instances need to be viewed in context. It's very easy to say hey some Palestinian was killed but then one has to look at the substantive facts of that situation to decide whether there was any justification for the killing, whether there was any crime on behalf of that person who did the killing and whether that crime was pursued in court. It is not always easy to convict people of murder. OJ Simpson famously got acquitted. Recently Kyle Rittenhouse got acquitted. While almost every killing is a tragedy (I'd argue that Hitler's killing wasn't really a tragedy and was the best thing he ever did) not every killing is a crime. There has to be mens rea. There has to be a law broken. There has to be no special circumstances under which that law no longer applied. The reality of the laws around occupation and international law is that once someone picks up arms they are now an enemy combatant. That arm could be a gun, a knife, a blunt object, a rock. Any occupied person who picks that up and tries to fight to end occupation now becomes an enemy combatant and the rules around how one is able to engage with them changes on that basis. They lose almost all their protections under international law for civilians and only have the protections due to enemy combatants. That's sadly how international law works. You might not like it. But that's just how it works.
@AustriaBargain: Yes murder is a crime - no one was arguing that it isn't, especially in California where OJ was charged with it - it's definitely a crime. But OJ was not criminally responsible for anyone's murder. It was determined that he had committed no crime. That's how the law works. A case was presented and it did not meet the threshold of reasonable doubt. OJ got to walk away a free man after his trial. The same would happen if any of the claims you make against members of the IDF or other Israeli governmental agencies were brought to trial. They would absolutely all walk free because the evidence is flimsy, there's no clear mens rea, there's clearly attempts to mitigate civilian deaths. I'm not sure if you've studied wars and any caselaw with regards to war crime trials but IDF does a very good job of keeping within the framework of a reasonable interpretation of international law when it comes to conflict. Believing that they are somehow doing stuff that is clearly or boldly illegal is nonsense. They are acting within a reasonable interpretation of international law - the issue is that people often don't understand how the Geneva Conventions apply to situations such as these. I would highly recommend reading the Geneva Conventions carefully and critically so you can better understand this subject. God bless you and yours bro.
@AustriaBargain: No he did not 100% murder anyone. That's why there was reasonable doubt and why he was acquitted. That 100% threshold was never ever met. But yes, again, murder is a crime in the state of California and in the USA.
@AustriaBargain: No he did not 100% kill anyone. Not his ex-wife and not the poor guy returning her sunglasses.
@rightguy: Posting paragraphs upon paragraphs to justify a genocide on Ozbargain of all places your life is a joke
@WinstonWithAY: Trying to pretend there's a genocide so you can just get off being a bad faith actor in an online interaction is really sad. We have a Genocide Convention - I would highly recommend that you actually try reading it before coming here and cosplaying as someone who has any clue what genocide means. There's a lot of tragic things happening in Gaza but a genocide is not one of things things. Again, we have a Genocide Convention, which I'd imagine would be the definitive defining document and when you use it to look at what's happening in Gaza now there's no reasonable way one can call it a genocide unless you want to absolutely change the definition of what a genocide is and, if so, then what's the point if genocide now means internally displacing of people in during a war. A population of internally displaced people isn't a genocide otherwise there's a genocide of Israelis as there's 500,000 or so internally displaced at the moment as well. So good luck to you mate. I wish you well but I wish you would honestly stop the cosplay and start to act in good faith and deal with reality. God bless you and yours.
If Israel was trying to commit a genocide (which they're clearly not) the war would have been over on 8/10…. saying this bullshit word doesn't make it true…
@Mike911: Actual genocide scholars and historians are either classing it as genocide or are worried it will escalate to one. I assume you know more than them though.
@WinstonWithAY: Cool and actual constitutional legal scholars told Trump he could just usurp power by getting Pence to turn away the real slate of electoral voters and bring in his own handpicked slate instead. Actual medical doctors made claims that 5G caused Covid and that Ivermectin was the only cure for it. Actual historians have made claims that the Holocaust never happened.
If I want to find an "expert" to confirm my bias I totally can. But that's not how science works - we look for consensus. That's how any rational good faith actor approaches something. They don't just go with what one or two people say they look for a clear consensus. And there is no consensus amongst scholars in this field whatsoever. In fact where we find a consensus is that the majority of scholars and historians who study genocides are saying that what we are seeing is not a genocide. And the vast majority of people in these fields are pushing back against these sentiments.
Again, any rational good faith actor would look for a consensus instead of cherry-picking a handful of people saying what confirms one's bias. You trying to pretend there is some consensus where there isn't any is just a weak attempt to apply any weight to your irrational argument. And maybe that works when you speak to someone who doesn't have any critical thinking skills but I don't see that working here my friend.
@rightguy: You said there's no consensus so you can't draw the conclusion yet you've drawn the conclusion that there is no genocide going on. I hope the IDF is paying you something to post so much because this is sad.
Israel is not going for peace
Yet they have offered Palestinians exactly that numerous times and each time got rejected. Do you know who Yasser Arafat is?
Then they initiate a mass terror event and act surprised when there is retaliation. Truly some next level mental gymnastics going on there…
What did Ukraine do to trigger Russia's violence? I'm failing to see the clarity in this analogy.
Anthony Lowenstein comes from Jewish heritage
Norman Finkelstein
Mel Brooks
What complete and utter garbage. If Israel truly wanted to commit genocide Gaza would have been levelled weeks ago.
They are cowards, they won’t do it and they can’t do it because the land is not theirs. People of Palestine will be free sooner than you think, they have the patience and resilience that no body has seen in their life and you know why because they know the land is theirs and they will not let the devil take over
Yeah I don't see 9.5 million Israelis suddenly just handing the keys to Palestinian land over to Hamas and the PA under the current situation. Not sure how the Israelis are "the devil" as I'm pretty sure they're just normal human beings like you and me. My guess is that we won't see a free unoccupied Palestinian nation for at least another 30-40 years. Israel is a nuclear power that fundamentally believes that it is at risk of genocide at the hands of neighbouring states including Palestine. Patience and resilience is never going to overcome a lack of military advantage. Israel has shown Palestinians that yes Palestinians can go and kill a bunch of Israelis but if that happens Israel is going to come down hard on them. Gaza is going to have a hard time rebuilding itself with a lack of supplies and a lack of money. I mean, who is going to give money to Hamas for Gaza to rebuild its infrastructure post war when a further conflict is likely and anything built will wind up bombed and destroyed within a few years. My best guess is that we won't see a free Palestine until maybe the 22nd century. I don't see it happening this century. When is "sooner than you think"?
Why do most Western governments (aside from Ireland which has fought against colonisation in its own history) including ours support Israel unconditionally though? Old mate Albo used to support the Palestinian cause back in the days but did a 180 recently, did five eyes have dirt on him or what?
Why was Ireland one of the few Western governments to essentially back the Nazis in WWII and mourn the death of Adolph Hitler - even having the Taoiseach go as far as visit the Nazi German Ambassador to Ireland to express the Ireland's condolences to the Nazi people that Hitler had died. And mind you this was after the horrors of the Holocaust became public knowledge and the Taoiseach had documented evidence of millions of Jews dying at the hands of Germany. Ireland is a weird country that never seemed to have had any issues with the deaths of Jews in the past and so I can't imagine why it would care about Jews dying now. I mean it also was the only European nation to reject Jewish orphans fleeing the Nazis and blocked multiple attempts to take in Jewish orphan refugees after the war.
Rather than take in the orphans the Ministers of Ireland made speeches such as: “There is one thing that Germany did and that was to rout the Jews out of their country and Ireland should follow suit. They crucified our savior 1,900 years ago and they are crucifying us every day of the week.” This was spoken by Oliver Flanagan, a man who served 4 decades in the Irish Parliament and would eventually serve as the Minister of Defense of Ireland.
Ireland has always been a deeply Catholic nation with a strong history of anti-Semitism that probably flows from old Catholic anti-Semitic views. That's typically been one of the reasons they've never really been fans of Israel.
Can someone who's read it give me a summary?
TLDR for anyone: A Jew says Palestinian people are made up.
Thanks for giving away your bias by saying "Jew" instead of "Israeli".
Did he say anything that wasn't factual?
Israel uses Gaza as a testing ground for new war and surveillance tech
Then exports it to other nice countries to use for their protection
ONLY out of necessity though, since they live next too a bunch of thugs that want to wipe them off the map (that's their own words).. I guess that's the ONLY silver lining to living next too murders and plunderers. I hope this book mentions this FACT.. otherwise, this is just dumb propaganda
Your comment is very naive and full of rhetoric. I’m not saying pro or against, just saying you can clearly tell people who know what they’re talking about and people who are media forwarders.
Why did they move next to these thugs then? Should’ve picked nicer neighbours.
@Xizo: Because Jews are indigenous to Israel, have always been there, never left. Sure some moved to Europe, the America's, Asia and even Australia. But then Hitler happened and many who managed to survive the horror of the holocaust moved back, to join still living Jewish settlements throughout the land.
Look at archaeological evidence to put Jews there at least from 3000 years ago. There were no "Palestinians" then, heck there were no Muslims then even.
The thugs don't like Jews, the thugs committed an ethnic cleansing of Jews, just google how many Jews live in Muslim countries today (for most it's 0) vs pre-1948 (about a million were expelled, and I'll leave it to you to find out how many didn't make it because of massacres). It is unbelievable how the pro-Palestinian narrative turns historical facts on their head. Black is white, up is down and if you repeat it enough times then you tire out the listeners and they start repeating the same lies.
Biden once said “if there was no Israel we would have invented an Israel… it’s the best 3 billion dollar investment “
Clearly they had an agenda hence why they Israel exists today,
Where do your buy your tin foil hats? Asking for a friend
testing ground for new war and surveillance tech
See this:
https://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/1725833921122975768Displaced Palestinians are forced through two surveillance containers
for facial recognition and touchless downloading of their
smartphone data and installation of backdoors.
Remember how the Nazis forced Jews
to have numbers tattooed on their forearms?
This is much worse.This looks a lot like something every Western country has implemented in the past 20 years. See London for instance. Where's the evidence for "new war" tech?
No, but I was thinking of buying it after listening to him on Yeah Nah Pasaran a few weeks ago: https://www.3cr.org.au/yeahnahpasaran/episode/antony-loewens… .. listening might be an easy way to get a quick summary if you're interested
need amazon link
I'm Hanz Heinz and I upvote this post.
I'm Hanz Heinz
beanz meanz?
Seeing some of the comments above - my only call is to think about what you type on the internet. Here is a deal, you may be pro it, you may be anti it
People are impacted on both sides, and if you hand on heart feel like you understand the complexities of the issue, then I STILL dont think this is a place to put it. We're here for deals, and it will be disappointing to see comments from naïve people. I'm sure youre all very worldly geo-political experts with no bias so my comment will be ignored. I'm going to run for cover :)
I felt much better in myself the day I decided to no longer participate in internet debates of any kind. You won't change peoples' opinions so the time and effort to type something out is much better spent elsewhere :-)
I'm agreeing that I would prefer non-political posts in our fun deal site.
I disagree! With all of you! You have now entered a debate with me
Yep. It's like that old meme said… arguing on the internet is like running in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
Must have been an old one, they don't tend to use ableist language these days
I agree FA, but they're are many folks who don't know the full facts behind this conflict and just see it as Hamas/ Muslims bad - Zionists good.
You may not change their mind, but if debating it in a factual way helps fill in their lack of knowledge it may help them to make a more informed decision about how they feel about Israel, America and the Middle East in general.You almost nailed your comment - but forgot to keep it 2 sided.
Anyone who is blanket writing one side good, another bad, is biased and naive. The only way to move past this is with good constructive conversation from both sides.
Remember if youre sitting in your house in Australia, never been a part of a war, never spoken to multiple people from the region on both sides, dont fully understand the history, you are likely naive. I'm not saying dont have an opinion, I'm saying, practice saying "I dont know' more and practice understanding that complex situations are not black and white, but very very dark shades of grey. Hey - I'm sure youre all very anti some of the things happening in Darfur - and if not, maybe you should have stronger opinions on that as well!
Piers Morgan’s family: Good morning Dad
Piers Morgan: Do you condemn Hamas?Hahaha couldn't be any more true unfortunately.
That could be at the breakfast table,
and Piers' mouth is full,
as he asked "whether hummus is a condiment?"
This will be nice and civil.
Downvote if you want but hummus and falafel is an A tier food.
I don’t think this is right
Would you rather be on the side of Zionists?
Whats wrong with being a Zionist?
Everything.
I am a very proud Zionist, and I'll never apologise for that!
JafferMoney, do you even know what the term means?
Would you rather be on the side of rapists and murderers?
Show us any shred of evidence there was rape.
@notbad: As luck would have it, there is website that has a collection of evidence.
It has all of the details of their plans for the future, testimonials, gallery. Much of the evidence is straight from the Go-pros of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists that committed the atrocities on the 7th of October. Unbelievable that after asking for evidence and receiving it, what usually happens is that Hamas supporters yell FAKE!Graphic warning to everyone, don't click on the videos/photos if you don't want PTSD by proxy.
That's the Zionists mate. So no.
You'd rather like candies to be freed
the guy is so caught up with his "free candy" antics that the words "free gaza" anger and confuse him
I'm curious, did they hand out free candies to all the kiddies at the "wag school today" Palestine protest in the city?
Do we really need political agendas posed as "good deals" on here…?
I mean how hard would it really be to find a whole bunch of Pro-this, or Pro-that bumper-stickers / tshirts /ebooks, etc that are on discount to post here and promote your political agenda??
I dont really think we need inflammatory items posted on ozbargain that will obviously incite anger… there are a plethora of online forums you can use for this instead.
Please remove before it snowballsIf it's a Walkley Award-winning book, it's obviously a very good book and it's written by somebody highly respected for their work. This doesn't look to be an emotionally-charged internet post masquerading as a dissertation. This is something that a lot of very smart people, whose sympathies range across the spectrum, have read and have agreed it is very well put - perhaps profound.
People who haven't read it may get upset or begin throwing around accusations, spreading their own perspectives - but this is an award-winning Australian work. Something rated highly by people whose responsibilities are covering this sort of thing. If it's free, it's by definition a bargain.
Agree!
Totally agree with you, this is not a deal it’s someone trying to make a political point, or do something controversial and bring out the popcorn whilst people argue.
Yeah I agree.
jeez man, they're books - free books! jog on if you're troubled by books
They don't gotta burn the books they just
removedownvote em
More Hamas propaganda.
Oh of course, the book written by a Jew is hamas propaganda. Maybe it's time to find another excuse
Care to elaborate as you have not said anything to counter the point.
Are you saying that a Jew cannot support Hamas' progoganda and it's overtly stated genocidal mission? Is that because all Jews are Zionists? But at the same time, hating Zionists is not hating Jews? Make up your mind…. All paths open to you are laced with hypocrisy.
If you believe what a Jew has to say about Israel, I would guess you would also believe what Hamas founder's son says about Hamas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjOEJumoABg
BTW, Hamas leader promised more attacks on Israel on live TV. Do you condone this?
Not the same. Show me rallies of Palestinians at pro-israeli events. There's certainly Jews at pro Palestinian events
@Big Lez: Oh yes, the peaceful Pro-Palestine protests with slogans of "Gas the Jews, Kill the Jews" at Opera house just 2 days after the massacre of 1400 people in Israel.
If he's Jew he's right?! How about all the PRO-ISRAEL Jews? Or they don't count?
People's religion or race only matters if you can tokenize it. We all want one friend who is "BLANK" so we can make jokes and statements about "BLANK" with disdain and then plead "hey it's okay my friend is BLANK and so it's cool for me to think/say this." It's sort of how when a dog bites a man it's not a story but when a man bites a dog it's big news. A woman writing a book from a feminist point of view is likely not going to get any print unless it's like an outstanding book. A woman writing a book that is anti-feminist can make a lot of money even if she's not a great author or thinker by just selling out her group. Plenty of other people have figured out they can use their status of being part of a group to make money online by being that token person who speaks out against the interest of that group. And meanwhile dudes online here and elsewhere just go "well he's a BLANK" so we have to add more weight to it. Any rational person would go with the consensus of a group. I can find you 1 million doctors who say the COVID vaccine is awesome. But then I can find you like 100 doctors who say it's going to kill you. Those 100 doctors will get a lot more time and be able to make more money off of being vocal because for some reason people appreciate outliers more when it comes to media. And it's so irrational because there's no where else in any situation where you would trust a very small minority opinion over a huge consensus opinion. But the sad reality is that people prefer to feed their bias rather than to actually engage in critical thought. I mean look at all those people who decided to take Ivermectin over an incredibly well tested and scientifically studied vaccine. We live in one of the dumbest times.
Any rational person would go with the consensus of a group
Lol that is the opposite of rational… it is faith in authority over logical process. You are actually trying use the argument from authority logical fallacy here which is a rookie error…
Imagine claiming to the rational one then demonstrating that you don't understand the first thing about it…
And it's so irrational because there's no where else in any situation where you would trust a very small minority opinion over a huge consensus opinion
In science it happens all the time. Maths wins over opinion. But most people like yourself don't actually understand the scientific method. You want the authority of science with none of the rigour.
people prefer to feed their bias rather than to actually engage in critical thought
Like you are doing now…
over an incredibly well tested and scientifically studied vaccine
Pfizer admitted under oath to parliament that it lied about the testing of it's vaccine. But you know, tRuSt ThE eXpErTs!
@1st-Amendment: An argument from authority fallacy has nothing to do with what I'm stating. Please do yourself a favour and read up on your fallacies as you clearly don't understand them. A consensus isn't an authority - it is consensus gentium - basic human understanding. It's how we look at the world scientifically. We understand that the consensus of those who deeply study and understand something carries a lot more weight than a small minority of people who haven't studied something and just believe something to be true. I understand that fallacies can be hard to understand but there's some very good websites out there that can help you in your journey to master them. I do however recommend when you respond to someone's argument that you use your own words and just respond to the argument rather than claim a fallacy as it makes you appear like you're in high school as in reality no one really uses those terms, they just use their words.
Also your claim about Pfizer shows the lack of critical understanding you have in these matters. Pfizer tested its vaccines just fine and if you read those studies you would have seen that they were studies designed to test efficacy of a drug to prevent disease from a virus. The problem is that a lot of lay people don't understand vaccine studies and made some inferences that the vaccines were shown to prevent transmission. But if you just read the studies you could see clearly that that wasn't the design of any of the studies and no reasonable data collected to make those sort of claims. To be clear Pfizer never made those claims - lay people did. But anyone with any understanding of how vaccine trials are done would have read those studies and saw that those claims were never made. So your statement that Pfizer admitted to lying under oath is just ridiculous. It never lied. People such as you who don't understand or don't commonly read studies made some ignorant inferences. That's fine - that's why expert consensus driven by repeatable data does matter over what a bunch of what lay people believe something says.
And yes I typically do trust the experts within a western democracy that's reasonably uncorrupt. That's typically a good way of ensuring you stay healthy and safe. But you do you bro. Much love to you and yours.
A consensus isn't an authority
It is to you, you made that very claim…
Pfizer tested its vaccines just fine
"just fine" is your expert scientific diagnosis? This is comedy…
lay people did
Like when Anthony Fauci said that right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK8OB8wlMGA&t=68s
Oopsy…
And yes I typically do trust the experts
So faith then, not rationality…
@1st-Amendment: Nope I didn't make that claim. Please go back and try to read what I did write rather than what you inferred due to your bias or lack of reasonable reading skills.
Yes Pfizer's methodology in testing its vaccines were just fine as in the definition of "of a high quality." Not sure why it's funny to you but okay. You do you.
And did you listen to Fauci. He said it is likely. He didn't say that the research proved this. He made a statement that given those parameters that is it likely that these other situations exist. He didn't say it was certain just that it was likely. Again, you've made a key error in misunderstanding what words mean.
Again, you cut out the remainder of the statement I made. I trust experts in any reasonable democratic system that lacks substantial corruption. Yes I tend to believe in general consensus about subjects I don't have the time or interest or expertise to be able to study myself. I typically don't believe that experts in a field are going to all get together and fake data and create false studies and then publish them and not be found out quite quickly. If I get numerous doctors giving me the same medical opinion I am likely going to believe that opinion over what my plumber tells me is wrong with me. That's typically how most human beings function. When my sink is leaking and I have 20 plumbers telling me the same thing I'm probably going to take their opinion even if I get 20 doctors telling me something else considering it's not in their area of expertise. If you're not doing that then I don't know how you function as a human being as you must have to critically analyze everything and you must scrutinize the food you get given at a restaurant as you can't seem to trust anyone after all.
Nope I didn't make that claim.
What claim? Learn to quote so your sentences make sense…
you cut out the remainder of the statement I made
For brevity, there is no need to quote your entire post again it's right up there if you need to see i all. A snipped quote is just to help give context to the reply, you should learn how to do it…
I trust experts
Which is fine, you do you. But don't then claim this is not an 'argument from authority'. You are specifically arguing something is true purely because the 'authority' on the subject said so. This is not rational it is faith.
When my sink is leaking and I have 20 plumbers telling me the same thing I'm probably going to take their opinion
What about if 8 say one thing, 6 say another, 4 throw their hands in the air and 2 don't even show up?
You see, hardly anything in life is so certain. Anyone offering certainty in an uncertain field should be treated as suspicious.
If you're not doing that then I don't know how you function as a human being
It's quite easy, simply don't trust anything anyone says just because they have a funny hat on.
I wonder the opposite, how does someone who can't think critically get by in life without falling down the nearest hole?you must have to critically analyze everything
Most of the time yes, Critical thinking is an important skill and once learned it is easy to apply. And it's a simple as just asking questions. If the 'authority' can't answer those question then there's a good chance they are lying to you.
Any rational person would go with the consensus of a group.
No, you're making the logical fallacy of authority from popularity (argumentum ad populum).
In any case, it's not "just" one Jewish guy, it's a number of Jewish people and Jewish organisations, a few prominent examples including Norman Finkelstein (Holocaust survivor as a baby, respected academic), Jewish Voice for Peace (human rights organization based in the U.S.), b'tselem (human rights organisation based out of Israel who report on human rights violations in the Occupied Palestinian territories, their reporting and research capabilities are respected by Israeli news organisations and even the IDF have cross checked with them on their figures in the past), Breaking the Silence (Israel based organisation dedicated to letting former IDF members speak about their activities while on duty in the Occupied West Bank), Judith Butler/Noam Chomsky/Naomi Klein (well known academics), and many, many other ordinary Jewish people. There are also Jewish people who are pro-Palestinian freedom for religious as well as humanitiarian reasons, largely Orthodox Haredi Jews (I will admit I don't know much about them outside of the fact they exist).
Also I'm just going to say, debate is arguably one of the key traditions of Judaism… You might be speaking about the general tokenistic "blank" friend, but since it's a discussion about Israel, I think it's pretty relevant to bring this up when you're trying to invoke a logical fallacy of authority from popularity…
@labyrinthinecities: How was Norman Finkelstein a Holocaust survivor as a baby? He was born in 1953 in NY. What Holocaust was there in NY in 1953????
Also on what planet are you on where Norman Finkelstein is a respected academic? I mean he's the guy to celebrated the deaths of a dozen people murdered at Charlie Hebdo because they published a cartoon of Muhammed. He's never been tenured. He's widely considered a crank by everyone other than people who read his books and just accept his footnotes which are absolutely horrendous. The reason why Finkelstein is somewhat prominent is that he's a very good talker and he's tokenized which makes him way more interesting to bring onto TV or speak about in any media. The guy is absolutely unhinged.
No I'm not making an argument that we should only listen to an opinion because it's popular. You've confused ad populum and consensus gentium. What I am saying is that where we have consensus in scholarship that yes that consensus matters. It matters not because it is popular, it matters because it has been clearly analyzed by a large group of people who have arrived in good faith at the same outcome. That's how science works. You're confusing popularity with scientific consensus which are two different statuses. I agree with you 100% that popularity doesn't matter. The general understanding of mankind does though.
And did I dispute that you couldn't find Jews to be able to criticize Israel? I am saying that they are few and far between. But of course they exist. I could find you Black scholars and pundits who would be able to say that slavery was the best thing that ever happened to African Americans but what's the point or purpose? I'm not interested in outliers I'm far more interested in consensus. When we focus only on the most far gone outlying opinion and represent it as somehow equal to the consensus we are enteriing a world of utter bad faith and utter irrational thinking.
And for some reason you are confusing academics with activists. Noam Chomsky's area of expertise is linguistics. Naomi Klein is an activist and author and not an academic (she's a college dropout). Judith Butler's area of expertise is gender studies and philosophy. Just as you wouldn't go to your dentist to have your prostate checked I wouldn't recommend going to people with limited expertise on a subject to try to glean a reasonable level of knowledge. Activists aren't academics. They are two substantially different groups of people with two completely different goals. Activists are essentially trying to propagandize an idea while academics ought to be trying to reach the truth (although some do fall into activism over scholarship). A real scholar looks at the data and then sees where it lands. An activist like Chomsky, Finkelstein, Klein and Butler use data to support their political or philosophical beliefs. They are absolutely two different mediums. And if you're reading Chomsky, Finkelstein, Klein or Butler's works on Israel/Palestine thinking you're getting academic scholarship you're mistaken. You're getting activist propaganda. And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with activist propaganda but it should not be confused with academic scholarship.
Also, with kindness and warmth, I recommend in the future you don't just use the tactic of pointing out supposed fallacies to try to undermine someone's argument. You should be able to make the retort without labelling the fallacy because it's typically bad form in debates to throw out a reference to a fallacy other than maybe an ad hominem. Let your words do the work of describing the fault in the other person's argument. Also I highly recommend learning about fallacies before using them as when you misuse them it can really undermine your argument.
Lastly, just so you know various sects of Haredis are against Israel as they see it as a violation for Jews to self impose a Jewish state until such time as their Messianic Age. They see it as a violation of the Three Oaths. Really has nothing to do with Israel's actions and overall more of a belief that there's the creation of Israel goes against a religious tenet of their belief. Here's a wikipedia on what that is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths
What I am saying is that where we have consensus in scholarship that yes that consensus matters
Wtf does 'consensus in scholarship' even mean?
That's how science works.
It doesn't actually. Science works on evidence and proof and reliable predictions, opinion and consensus count for zero. Only Arts student think like this, it sounds very much like you are one of them.
Every breakthrough in science was a result of one or a small group of people against the much larger consensus, that is what breakthroughs are. Scientific progress actually requires the consensus to be wrong.That fact you are getting this wrong tells me you have very little science education.
You should be able to make the retort without labelling the fallacy because it's typically bad form in debates to throw out a reference to a fallacy
Rational arguments are entirely about calling out logical fallacies when identified as it helps keep the discussion rational rather than emotional. You simply can't have a rational argument if one side keeps falling into the same logical falsehoods over and over…
Let your words do the work of describing the fault in the other person's argument
'Trust the experts' is the argument from authority logical fallacy. It is logical impossible to continue a rational argument if you continually fall back to this error in logic. If you want to continue rationally, then present an argument that doesn't rely on having faith in 'experts'.
@1st-Amendment: Consensus in scholarship means a consensus reached by advanced scholars in a specialized field of study or investigation.
That's not at all how science works. Science is held together by consensus - ie. scientific theories. They can change over time as more data is presented. But your believe that small groups work against a larger consensus is not how science works. Understanding grows and deepens and new data emerges. When new reliable data emerges people have to see if the old consensus fits the new data and if it doesn't then that consensus is abandoned in favour of a new one. That's how science works. Not sure why I have to teach a grown-up about it but here I am. This is why science deals in theories because they are the views of the consensus and not a dogmatic belief.
No rational arguments are not about calling out fallacies. That's like a middle school understanding of arguments. Arguments about are about a search for truth in which one party builds upon another's argument or challenges their premises to critically expose them to see if they withstand scrutiny. The point of an argument isn't for one side to win or lose it's to ascertain whether premises are valid or not. Bringing up fallacies is a silly juvenile way of debating. No one outside of children ever do that. You never see that happen in a court of law. Instead one just explains in their own words why the argument fails.
I don't have faith in experts I have faith in the scientific method which, again, relies on consensus forming in the unearthing of new and reliable data. An argument from authority implies that I view the authority as infallible and I put my faith in them. That's not what I've stated. I've stated time and time again that my strategy for life is to rely on the consensus of rigorous academic inquiry in any uncorrupt liberal democracy. I firmly believe that the processes of the method typically provide the best system for how to navigate reality. Scientific/Academic consensus is essentially the extent of human understanding at that moment in time. For the purposes of me navigating the world I am best served to use that consensus to my advantage and use it to improve my life especially in areas where my expertise is slim. That's the best port of call for anyone to go to to try to ascertain the best means forward at that moment in time. And of course there may be a day where there's a different consensus but you can only operate at the moment in time you're living in. Just as how new technology will enter into our lives so will new consensuses and new understanding. This doesn't mean you can pretend that scientific consensus doesn't exist or that it's a failure of human knowledge when a consensus is replaced with another. Human understanding is a journey of growth and taking steps towards that growth.
@rightguy: So… I spent awhile trying to respond/thinking of how to respond to this comment. First of all, apologies for the mistake on Finkelstein, I saw the video of him saying he was a Holocaust survivor as a baby and didn't look into it further.
Look, the point of my original comment… Mainly I was trying to point out that there are lots of Jewish people who are critical of Israel to varying degrees, and it's not so much a fringe minority opinion like that of Covid deniers… Your original comment talked about "the consensus of a group" - to me, that reads as you talking about "consensus of Jewish people as a group". Hence the accusation of making a logical fallacy arguing from popularity, especially when like… Look, I'm not Jewish, so I listen to friends who are Jewish when they say/post on social media stuff like the way Israel = Jews is taught in Jewish institutions (like schools and places of worship) is kinda "cult like"/"indoctrination-y" and it's sold to them as "we are Israel and Israel is us" type of thing. I'm ethnically Chinese, so while there have been attempts by the C.P.C. to spread that kind of rhetoric, the Chinese diaspora is way too big and chaotic to have that work, though having to learn the P.R.C. national anthem in Mandarin language school while here in Australia was whacky.
As for the people I mentioned… You say they're not real academics and are a fringe opinion (the fringe opinion being the criticism of Israel), and that they cherry pick data to support their politics or philosophical beliefs. But what data or information is there to cherry pick? The fact that Palestinians are subjected to a whole bunch of human rights abuses? That Palestinians get raided randomly in their homes in the night as an intimidation tactic? That kids get tried in military courts for throwing rocks at people and sentenced to ridiculously long sentences? The fact that while Palestinians and Arabs have some rights, there are still messed up things like streets where if you're Palestinian, you're not allowed to walk on them? That non-military settlers will come to Palestinian houses and villages and "evict" the people there under threat of violence? The fact that these things and more lead to an extremely disturbing picture which people smarter than me call "aparthied"? And "settler-colonialism"?And if you say they're not real scholars (in this field), they're activist propagandists, they're people with extreme fringe opinions, then who/what would you suggest as reliable scholarship?
edit: so on second thought, I'm really really really not interested on debating with you, but I would be appreciative if you could provide examples of what you consider reliable scholarship on the topic as alternatives to the people I mentioned, since they're the ones whose work I've been reading.
With regard to the Haredi Jewish people… Maybe I'm just being naïve here, but when I see videos of Haredi Jewish people marching at protests, their banners usually talk about the humanitarian reasons for criticising Israel. When I've watched video interviews of Haredi Jewish people, including Rabbis, they've talked about the human rights and humanitarian reasons, with some of them also talking about their religious reasons. I'm not actually interested in modern religion, so I tend to zone out or skip through those sections. So… if it "really has nothing to do with Israel's actions" then do you mean to say they're just… Lying or being untruthful or misleading about their motives?Lastly… I mean I guess thanks for the tip, but I'm not a debater or interested in being one? To be frank, I'm just a dumb university dropout schmuck who gets to see videos of Palestinian civilians being slaughtered, mass graves, "wounded child no surviving family", graphic images of violence and it's aftermath every day on Instagram, while in the Instagram and Snapchat geotags for Israel I see people living life up, having slow days at work, partying, drinking, eating little canapes… And yes, I saw the footage and pictures posted of the aftermath of Hamas's attack. It was awful and horrifying. But in the end, one group is currently partying it up, living the usual social media glam life style, while I've been watching videos of the other group, on the daily, pulling dead bodies out of rubble, kids mutilated, people having to go through surgery without anesthetic, and general suffering. I hope you understand, I'm not interested in "debating" that part at all, because there is nothing in the world that can justify to me the level of slaughter and cruelty against civilians we've seen recently (from either side, but again, proportionality). I just want to know more in general about the context behind it all.
Do you think the author can be a hamas spy?
"Anthony Lowenstein just won a Walkley award for his, so you know journalists think it's the real deal." 😂
so you know journalists think it's the real deal.
Yeah but who would trust a journalist these days?
This will be constructive.
Whether or not you agree with the author, this is probably not an “OzBargain” type of deal.
Great read! Thanks
At least this deal is actually respectable content, unlike the Daily Wire tripe that was posted a few months ago.
I won't say anything about the conflict itself, but Netanyahu's government has been trying to get rid of judicial overview by stripping the high court of Israel of their powers to review the legislature. Terrible move and shows that he's only interested in securing power for himself.
That tells you all you need to know.
i wholeheartedly support the liberation of palestine but im not convinced these sorts of posts do anything other than stir zionists up and make the already-suffering-today ozbargain servers struggle even more. do zionists find these posts thought-provoking? maybe, but i feel like all posts like this one do is have people come in and share their own questionable takes everywhere, leading to arguments and general Unproductive Rubbish.
…having said that, this does look like a good read.
It's called balance when the alternative view is provided. The MSM just spews out the same one sided US Israel propaganda.
A war crime is a war crime. Flags don't come into itA war crime is a war crime. Flags don't come into it
You can believe that. But its not the way the world works.
Were Bush, Blair and Howard ever charged with war crimes for invading Iraq when it clearly met the legal criteria for a war crime?
And the same will happen for this one. No one will be charged with war crimes, even though both sides have committed them, because if any Hamas officials are charged the world will insist Israel's military and leaders are too, and they are protected. Like Bush, Blair and Howard are. Because of the flags they acted under.
"Were Bush, Blair and Howard ever charged with war crimes for invading Iraq when it clearly met the legal criteria for a war crime?" They should have been
I totally agree with your entire post
That was my point above
Does it also come with a Free copy of Mein Kampf?
…autographed by Mental Yahhoo?
HAHAHA
Read this book a while ago. Worth reading without a doubt. The other 5 free books are excellent too. Though, I recommend reading 'Ten Myths About Israel' by Ilan Pappe before 'The Palestine Laboratory'.
Plenty of others there if you'd like a deeper understanding of what's happening in the middle east right now.
From another well respected Jewish scholar Dr Norman Finkelstein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlkFLVCGacEPiers Morgan is now wishing he didn't invite Dr Finkelstein to his show for a debate.
Yeah, he hates having anyone on, who shades his partial intellect
Classic clip
Listen to the podcast Dan Snow's History Hit. There is one about Gaza.
Turns out before Jesus it was occupied by the Egyptians.
Problem seems to be everyone is fighting over historical claims to land. Nobody tries to make the most of now (living in peace) and pass onto future generations they need to be fighting for something.
There is also a good podcast about family trees and genealogy. Turns out that your genetics would dispose of fragments therefore even if you might be family tree related to a king your genetics might not agree.
Downvote if you want but search for the facts while doing so
*The british Mandatory Palestine decided to split the country between the jewish and the arabs, giving more land to the arabs - the jewish accepted, arabs not and decided to attack and eliminate all jewish in 1948, Israel won fighting 5 countries.
*Look for 'Palestine' flag from 1938, it is the Israely flag.
*There were never a palistinian nation, no currency, official governemnt etc.
*Jews were in in Israel more than 3000 years ago.
*Jerusalem not mentioned even once in the holy Quran but mentioned hundred of times in the bible.
*Israel was concured multiple times in the hisotry and the jewish were expeled and managed to come back with time to their home land.And so on, just please try to learn the facts and history.
By the way, Israel is not fighting the 'Palestinians' its fighting the Hams which butchered 1,400 civilians at their home at Oct 7th, Hamas is Isis, and Hamas is hiding behine the civilians and not letting them escape the fighting areas, Israel is the one risking soldier lifes to let civilians go to no fighting zone every day for 4-6 hrs of ceasfire.In other words: Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel, and no matter how the Hamas supporters try to spin it their explicitly stated goal is to rid the land of Israel from its indigenous people. This is the real genocide.
Furthermore, the Palestinian leadership rejected 9 (!) peace offers of a 2 state solution since 1947, they do not want peace. There will never be peace until the Palestinian culture and values change as a society."There will never be peace until the Palestinian culture and values change as a society."… it all because the leaderships that run it are soooo corrupt and soooo profitable from international aid, why would they want to make peace and actually have to govern, work hard and and BUILD a civil economy?!?! That is why thier ppl need to come into Israel to work, need to mooch off Israels water, fuel which they dont even pay for. Theyre leadership has plenty of money to create their own economy but they choose to use it for terror instead of on their own people and then their own people cry out to the world that things are so bad.
Look at Hamas "political" leaders that live in Qatar.. they billionaires, live in mansions and own private jets. IF the poor Palestinian people cannot see this and uprise against this wicked entity then they are doomed for a life of absolute misery for decades to come! Its the greatest example of Stockholm syndrome you will ever see
It's not just the Hamas leadership, it's all of the Palestinian leadership. If you google Yasser Arafat you can find his wealth was estimated to be between $1B-$3B, it's good business to lead the Palestinian people
Heck, he even got the Nobel peace prize, without making peace!@Hamsahamsahamsa: Too True. Further than that.. Arafat wasn't even "Palestinian' .. He was Egyptian. Which probably calls to why deep down he had no empathy with the people he was supposedly caring for.
@Gavman: So are all of the millions of "Palestinian refugees" born in other countries, some of them grand children to a "Palestinian" and yet they inherit the refugee status somehow. Unbelievable but true.
Stop it… your making tooo much sense.
Yep, as far as recent history is concerned, the people in Gaza now have openly supported Hamas for over a decade, they openly support & protect the Hamas terrorists, they openly advocate for the extermination of all Jews and they've got the support of the vast majority of all residents for every attack on Israel they make. They voted Hamas into power and they've never removed them since that time. They've had over a decade to leave the region and move to any number of surrounding Islamic countries if they didn't like it there, or support Hamas - they haven't, instead they gathered there in bigger numbers. The moment they attacked innocent Israeli children and citizens, they signed their own death warrant and the terrorist supports in Gaza backing them.
But that all makes sense and all my vegan friends tell me Palestine is great, so I prefer believe them
Israel fighting Hammas lol.
They have killed 1 hammas member to every 100 civilians. And going back and saying who 'owns' the land does not give any right to slaughter people.
Also, happy for you to explain the illegal settlements in the westbank. No hammas thereOpen the news and search for the truth, weaponse and misseles are being found in Mosques/Schools/Playgrounds and Hospitals, a lot of weapons and underground tunnels under Shifa shospital, Hamas is using the civilians as their protection.
Which news? The news that Zionists own?
I bet you still believe we needed 8 Covid vaccines
Imagine if the UN said to Australia that we had to give up half of our country to compensate some other ethnic group for an atrocity we didnt even commit. Germans committed the holocaust but the Palestinians paid the price.
Germans committed the holocaust but the Palestinians paid the price.
When did Nazi Germany put the Palestinians in concentration camps and attempt to ethnically cleanse them from the entirety of Europe ?
This is Reddit levels of going full tard.
Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Qur'an?
59.3% of the Palestinians expressed “extreme support” for the actions of Hamas on Oct. 7, while 15.7% said they “somewhat” favored the massacre. Fewer than 13% of the Palestinians opposed the massacre.
80% of Palestinians reject both the “one-state” and “two-state” solutions, and instead demand all the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea—in short, the entire State of Israel.
those aren't reasons for downvoting the deal
You 100% knew when you posted this you’d get some downvotes and genuinely upset people who actually have skin in the game on this issue. Might be a free book but was posted to cause divide while you get your internet points. Should be ashamed of yourself
Those incredibly precise statistics are shocking. God bless the survey takers who have spent the last month wandering the war zone to gather them.
59.3% of the Palestinians expressed “extreme support” for the actions of Hamas on Oct. 7, while 15.7% said they “somewhat” favored the massacre. Fewer than 13% of the Palestinians opposed the massacre.
If those stats were taken before Oct 7 , it’d shocking.
If those stats were taken during the current invasion of Gaza where the people answering are facing hell, let’s say I’m surprised 99% don’t show support.
The current invasion may eliminate hamas, but I suspect it will only seed the next group of Palestinians who will want to harm Jews.
Yeah, it’s not exactly a useful survey to ask Palestinians whilst Israel bombs refugee camps and has killed thousands of children. Obviously people are going to be angry with Israel….
One month before the Hamas massacre, 67% of the Palestinian public opposes the idea of a “two-state solution” as opposed to 32% who support it. The poll showed that 53% of the Palestinians support armed struggle against Israel. Twenty percent said they support negotiations with Israel, while another 24% expressed support for a “popular non-violent resistance.” The poll, in addition, showed that if new presidential elections were held at the time, Hamas leader would receive 58% of the votes as opposed to 37% for Abbas.
Man, I actually have no idea about most of this. Unlike most people I put my hand up and say that.
I’m simply saying, a man who relies on statistics like that without thought isn’t a man worth listening to.
Did 100% of those stats come from Israel or the White House
The findings of the poll shatter the claim made by US President and Secretary of State that Hamas is not representative of most Palestinians. Sadly, the results show, without doubt, that the Biden administration is completely clueless about the anti-Israel sentiment among a large majority of the Palestinians.
Pretty sure even before the Hamas attack Mental Yahoo would have claimed he has a mandate to invade Gaza.He's been itching to formalise his permanent despot status like Putin has. The USA is hedging it's bets cos oil.
@Protractor: When questioned about the absence of bomb shelters for Palestinians, one Hamas speaker asserted that their focus was on constructing a 500 km tunnel to defend themselves. They disclaimed responsibility for Palestinian safety, stating it's the duty of the UN and Israel, despite being the elected government.
and 100% of Palestinians in Gaza are living in an open air concentration camp with no freedom of movement, limited drinking water and under constant bombardment.
You might want to do a little reading of events pre October 7, 2023.One of the walls is Egypt.
Israel left Gaza 20 years ago, Hamas used all the bellions of dollars got from the world to build hundreds of KM of underground tunnles, rockets, missles instead of investing it in the public. YET, although attacked from Gaza every year, Israel has been providing food, water and electriciy to Gaza free.
Gaza has a border with egypt but they dont want them, non of the arabs country want to deal with Hamas and the palestinians who advocate for terror.
Agh yes, Israel. Pillar of virtue
Is Hamas a pillar of virtue?
Hey Redditors, how are you all today
F
Lol… more than half the tech you guys are buying through ozbargain are Israeli inventions. Maybe you should boycott this website? It is clearly promoting the zionist regime
Half the tech? Yeah sure.
Ozbargain become another regilious frantic place. Admin, Pls remove.
jeez it's a respected publisher giving away some books. If the world is too complicated for you and you can't handle conflict, I feel very sorry for you.
Get an education and learn the history about Palestinians being Bedouin arabs and all of them are nomadic. Let me guess you must be a Muslim.
That publisher turned left so hard they did a 360 and walked away
Political biased bs
Thanks OP. Got 'em.
Hi, can you open them? I can't open mine.
Yes. I use Calibre. Mine downloaded as epubs.
Došlo vrijeme da se Židi svete
Sve džamije u oblake lete.
Nema Sadama, Nassera i Tite
Da te opet od Židova štite.The left-wing colonial people have to invent specific rules for Jews/Israel to justify their takes. Because if you believe land belongs to the indigenous people, it's clear Jews were the indigenous people to the land. Jews were there long before Islam was even a religion, before and during when the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, the Romans etc. controlled the area.
Jews remained the largest group in Jerusalem even well into the 19th century under the Ottomans.
If, on the other hand, you believe the land should belong to whoever is there now after wars etc. because historical claims are illogical and that's how every country in the region was formed, then it belongs to Israelis now.
So instead they have to create a special rule for Jews/Israel where Jews lost their right to the land when they were driven out via wars and conquest, but also don't have a right to it now because Jews moved back and other people who lived there after that were driven out because of wars. It makes no sense unless you apply a random cutoff that says the only thing that counts was who was there around the turn of the 20th century.
No to propaganda.
Great deal. Weekend sorted.
Too bad its only an ebook. Coulda used the toilet paper..
I know. Truth hurts.
The Bible works better and is more available accessible.
go ahead and post it as deal with the free link
What is the point of even trying to understand any nonsense over there? They sure don't care enough about peace so no reason i should. Only sympathy is for those that keep getting born into a life of poor options and suffering who somehow break the cycle and don't further perpetuate it. Meh, next deal please.
By the way Israel is about to finish the job. Please do not stay quiet, up your game and, go fly over there. I mean, walk your talk.
Nobody is going to "win ".
Terrorism will now haunt the withering planet until it's end now.
Who ever gets the land, wins.
Red Alert.
You think that's where it ends? Lucky you.History says differently.
What a loser
Not until you waste time protesting for nothing.
Anything changed? after all those protests? Aside from massive traffic?
I was expecting the worst when i opend this thread. Thankful that the masses are starting to see the ocupation for what is
Yea. very few numbers of propagandists participating as well. Massively outnumbered.
yes agreed, it all didnt start on october 7.
Awesome deal thanks! Free Palestine from the oppressing and occupying Israeli nazi!
Your account has 8 comments, 7 in the "[PC] Games for Gaza - 256 Games for US$10 @ Itch.io" thread and now 1 in this. Obviously a second account as you're too afraid to spread your jew hatred on your main account.
Long time lurker first time poster :p
I hate baby murderers (idf) not Jewish people. Ur just a prejudiced antagonist my friend.
Can you please show me where they expressed hatred for jewish people?
Letting Hamas into Israel (by "freeing Palestine") = death to Jewish people there. We have just seen an example of that on 7/10. This is what "Free Palestine" means = 7/10. So, this is where they expressed the hatred. They support genocide of Jews.
@eva123: The fact that you think that jewish people need to die to free palestine of israels control says more about you than anyone else.
Maybe they could start by not having absurd levels of control over palestines supplies, like food, water, electricity etc.
Not starting wars and killing thousands every few years.@[Deactivated]: I do not need to think that, I just need to revisit the events of 7/10. This is how I know what Hamas, who represents the Palestinians, wants.
As for water etc. - if only "Palestinians" would invest the billions they are receiving from around the world in building a better life, they wouldn't have had to rely on Israel for supplies.@eva123: Now visit 2008-2009, 2012, 2014, 2021 and the many cases that were too small to be considered a war.
You clearly know NOTHING about Palestine with your absurd statements about development.
I'm not going to continue to argue with an alt. Log onto your main, quit being a coward.
@[Deactivated]: I do not understand your point.
And sorry, mate, I have a reason to strongly believe that I know much more knowledge about Israel and Palestine than you do.
The facts are - Palestinians care more about killing Jews than living better lives. Gaza is a factory for hate. You have no idea how those people think. They are not your average Australians.
They dream to be martyrs, they believe it will bring them a better afterlife. Most of them are religious fanatics. It is all they care about. So, give me a break. Talk to some of them and find out for yourself.@eva123: If you don't understand my point from the first line, you're clearly as educated as a rock on the ongoing conflicts between them.
Now like I said, get on your main, coward.
No deal, should not be on Ozb.
Thankfully the people with the biggest guns are always on the right side of history. The terrorist sympathisers can whinge all they want, but remember you only have two options at the next election, and neither one will make a difference
Which group/people are terrorists?
And can you please indicate what would make a group terrorists please.A great example of a terrorist group would be the Australian Navy when they patrol the South China Sea
Dutton & his pseudo brown shirts have already dived deep into Mental Yahoo's AH. You don't have to sympathise with terrorism to call out the atrocities Israel (not Jews) and the extremest fundamentalists have foisted on innocent people.Even Israels own citizens are waking up to Mental Yahoos psychopathic behaviour
Even Israels own citizens are waking up to Mental Yahoos psychopathic behaviour
Israeli citizen are still mourning their 1400 dead and anxiously waiting on news of their 240 Hostages. They did not even start it, so stop with your biased rhetoric. Hamas is only to blame for this violence…period.
Haha
I love the "they didn't start it" argument in defense of Israel.
As if there isn't an entire series of "operations" in the 21st century alone where they killed thousands.@[Deactivated]: and how many of these "operations" started because of Hamas's terrorist acts or because they won't stop shooting unguided rockets at Israeli cities?
Every single one them.
@dealhunter52: You'd know the answer to that question is not on your side if you did an ounce of research.
It's 1200
What a hot mess :| I do hope these highly contentious 'deals' stop showing up on Ozbargain.
Sure it's a 'deal', however probably not the most suited to ozbargain, knowing the heated typefest that will ensue following the post.This is a great topic during the Ozb Anniv meetups.
It’s quite incredible that such a simple topic can be spun into such a ‘complex issue’.
Yes — unfortunately the terrorist sympathisers, and anti-Semites engage in increasingly elaborate mental gymnastics to justify their immoral objectives. Cognitive dissonance is a natural consequence of their brainwashing, I guess
OzBargain is for the people and by the people! Thank you for displaying ur moral high ground and demonstrating that the inhabitants of Gaza are rightfully deserving of their human values! For anyone opposing, have a long look at ur self, if ur position is denying basic human rights then check ur self as a human.
Why is an Australian dollar worth less than a US dollar? Simple economics
I don't agree with the political "deals" to be honest.
Right wing, left wing, extremist, wars etc.But, if it's not against the rules, a freebie is a freebie.
also @eva123 nice alt account to mass vote the pro-israel stuff buddy
I’m out. I swore that wouldn’t argue with terrorist sympathisers, anti-semites, and clowns on the internet. Many in this post tick all three boxes.
Oh, and thanks for the books. Upvoted.
Can you please indicate what makes someone a terrorist. (In your opinion)
The acts of Hamas, and ‘regular’ Palestinians on October 7th. What happened that day far outweighs the acts of the IDF since.
@[Deactivated]: No, it started on the morning of the 15th May 1948. The desire to destroy the Jewish nation has remained ever since.
If the Jews didn’t fight back, or didn’t have the means to fight back, there’d be genocide.
@gasman70: Yeah, just ignore the fact that the land was and has been slowly getting taken from the people who were there first.
As well as Israel having control over basically all of Palestines supplies and utilities.Sounds to me like you're not against terrorists, you're just against a specific group of terrorists.
Because by most peoples standards, both Hamas and the IDF are terrorists. Which I agree with.
@gasman70: So the 1200 Israelis dead on Oct 7 (yes, no longer 1400, Israel has admitted it's around 1200) outweigh the over 10000 Palestinians dead since that day (including over 4000 children)?
Hmmm…@poisongodmachine: Absolutely. Do you know what it takes to take a life using the methods Hamas employed? To rape, kidnap, immolate? It takes a special type of criminal to carry out these crimes.
Pressing a button to kill a rocket-launching terrorist hiding in a tunnel under a school, and causing collateral damage/death is an entirely different scenario.
But your simplistic, terror-supporting, anti-Semitic, brainwashed mind wouldn’t be able to differentiate.
@gasman70: U mean if the Jews didn’t have the help of their British mandate buddies then Palestinians would’ve still had a home without oppression. Israel’s population all come from Europe buddy, there never was an israel pre 1948 but there was Palestinians ( muslims, Jews and Christians) all coexisting in harmony before the Zionist occupiers came in to create the Nakba ( catastrophe ) that expelled the indigenous from their lands. I feel uve been misinformed my friend :)
@Hay09: Existing in harmony. Holy shit, how naive are you.
Do you have any idea how many Jews live throughout the Middle East, and how many remain? There are none outside of Israel, and all didn’t relocate by choice. Many were killed and the rest were forced to flee.
Read up on some history of the ME and then respond.
@gasman70: You need to hear from an actual native Palestinian jew. I don’t know where you get your info from. There was peace and harmony among Christian’s Jews and muslims before Israel came to existence and decided kill them and drive them out their homes and take over their land. Why don’t you google map of Israel 1948 until now, the evidence is clear, your just in denials. It is because of Israel that the oldest church in the world and many more got bombed, it is because of Israel that christian Palestinians are going to become extinct as only few hundred are left.
Google Hamas charter/covenant and read it. Especially the part where they clearly state that killing Jews is their objective.
This will give you an example of how terrorism is defined.
-The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.-“the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” (IDF Spokesperson Daniel Hagari, 10 October)
“Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings” (Israeli defence official, 10 October)
“Israel has no choice but to render Gaza into a place that is temporarily, or permanently, unfit for living” (Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former Head of the National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 11 October)
“Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf … The entire population of Gaza will either move to Egypt or move to the Gulf” (Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former Head of the National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 13 October)
“Remember what Amalek did to you’ … This is a war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness” (Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 3 November)
Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, 19 November: “I agree with every word of Giora Eiland in this article [in which Eiland called for targeting “the entire Gaza population” and causing “severe epidemics” to break out there]”
Deputy Speaker of the Knesset Nissim Vaturi MK (Likud, governing), 17 November: “All the preoccupation with whether or not there is internet in Gaza shows that we have learned nothing. We are too humane. Burn Gaza now nothing less!”
Deputy Speaker of the Knesset Nissim Vaturi MK (Likud, governing), 16 November: “In 1967 we held them by force. This mistake must not be repeated. As a democratic country we must allow them to leave for other countries, far from here #Voluntary_Transfer”
Chief of Staff of the IDF Northern Brigade in Gaza, Col. (Res., currently in active duty in Gaza) Oren Zini, November 16: “We are talking here about a hornets’ nest. The entire Strip is a hornets’ nest of terrorists. Therefore we have to work systematically … A systematic, continuous, long treatment—without taking to heart all these noisemakers, … there are a lot of noisemakers, we should ignore them at the moment. I object to, now I’m talking privately, yes? As a private individual. I object to the entry of all sorts of things to the other side that might help them recover. I believe in suffocating it. This means stubbornly continuing to strangle them—below ground, above ground”Yitzhak Kroizer MK (Otzma Yehudit, governing), 5 November: “the Gaza Strip should be flattened, and there should be one sentence for everyone there—death. We have to wipe the Gaza Strip off the map. There are no innocents there”
Former Deputy Commander IDF Gaza Division Amir Avivi, 29 October: “We are not taking any chances … When our soldiers are manoeuvring we are doing this with massive artillery, with 50 aeroplanes overhead destroying anything that moves”
Former Israeli Ambassador to Italy and Israel Hayom columnist Dror Eydar, 26 October: “For us, there is one purpose: to destroy Gaza, to destroy this absolute evil”
Former Likud MK Moshe Feiglin, 26 October (?): “There is one and only one solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. And when I talk about destruction, I mean destruction like it was in Dresden and Hiroshima, without a nuclear weapon”
Under any definition the USA has more terrorists and terrorist sympathisers than the rest of the world combined. The NRA has locked it in.
How stupid are you?
What do you call mass murdering innocent children at a school with a military grade weapon? Exercising the 2nd amendment?
Look at the growing annual death toll by gun in the USA FFS
Stupid? Meh. Deny away
@Protractor: I loathe American gun culture and the 2nd amendment for enforcing it, but what the hell has this to do with terrorism?
People, and especially mentally ill people, shouldn’t have easy access to guns. That’s a no-brainer.
Lol only picks 2 categories that supports his own racist undermining. Why not add baby death sympathisers ( ur definition of a clown apparently) that’s where I fall under. Or are u just ultimately a terrorist sympathiser or anti semite if u believe dead Palestinian babies is just wrong.
You think there’s a moral equivalence between a child having its throat cut with a knife, and a child killed in a building that is used as a rocket launch site, that was struck by an IDF guided missile?
Remember, the IDF use weapons to protects its people, whereas Hamas use its people to protect its weapons.
The only end to this conflict is the destruction of Hamas at any cost. They don’t want peace, they have refused it every time it was on the table.
They want the destruction of the Jewish state far more than they want their own.No evidence of babies throat cut but plenty of bombed babies, babies made to starve to death, new borns dieing because there is no fuel to operate incubators. Israel = evil!!!
@Hay09: It’s well documented in words and pictures of what was done to Jewish children, yet you defend it?
Hamas has huge supplies of fuel, food, water and weapons. Where on earth do you think the billions of dollars of donations go each year?
You just believe what a terrorist organisation wants you to believe. Remember the day after the atrocities, a Hamas spokesman said that they don’t harm civilians, or woman and children…..and then the videos started emerging.How gullible are you?
Ur post 100% supports genocide because “any cost” means the entire Gaza population. U sick sick human, I hope ur community is safe from terrorising people such as ur self. Crazy rhetoric!
@Hay09: There’s an old saying that goes, ‘if Palestine lay down its arms tomorrow, it would continue to exist. If Israel did the same, its existence would cease almost immediately’. Based on middle eastern history since 1948, this statement is obviously true.
Does this tell you anything?
Where is your evidence of babies throat being slit by Hamas? Don’t tell me you still believe that lie, wow !
Everyday we are seeing babies and kids blown to bits by Israeli rockets. 7000 in total massacred, thousands still under the rubble and thousands with amputated limbs without anaesthesia, this knows how many with no family surviving. where is the humanity ?The evidence is all over social media, there is no denying those facts
No wonder Hamas used Child and women as a shield and shelling from the hospital.
Why?
Both sides just need Jesus Christmas in their hearts….
Need a heart first :)
Seriously…. we don't need this bullshit propaganda on here!
The mods allowed the precedent multiple times ,and the "harvest" of that decision goes on….
Which book and which part in particular did you find was propaganda?
So much pro-Palestinian propaganda is coming up lately… Did we see here any opposite posts? Nope, because it is not popular. Most people don't want to understand; they are happy with whatever they are being fed.
It’s because israel are blatantly in the wrong. Difficult to make the killing of 13000 innocents 40% of whom are children as a good thing naturally don’t u think? It’s a hard sell champ.
This is why there will never be peace in the region. People that live in an echo chamber and live and breathe their side, they can't see the complexities of a longstanding 2-sided conflict.
Not that i would have higher hopes for anyone that uses the term "champ" so quickly :p
It’s not complex, Gaza is a concentration camp and Israel are unequivocally oppressing and have been committing atrocities for decades. Ur a champ when ur views are racist and dehumanising if u know what I mean. I’m trying to be respectful:)
@Hay09: What aspect of the post you responded to was racist?
Do you consider the many comments in this deal making generalizations towards Jewish people racist?
@Strange1: The post that supports the killing of innocent Gazans is in my opinion supporting ethnic cleansing and deemed racist.
On the contrary I support Jews and all other innocents equally, my problem lies at the perpetrators of atrocities on all sides to be clear.
No-ones stopping you from posting "pro-israel" or even neutral on the situation deals.
The huge majority have absolutely no idea what they’re marching for. They have no idea of the history, or the hatred.
Did you see the ‘queers for palestine’ brigade recently? It’s like turkeys voting for Christmas.
”The huge majority have absolutely no idea”.
And what’s the basis to your claim. Any objective evidence or are you projecting your opinions as facts. Quite ironic.
Seen any video taken at these marches? Obviously many are Muslims who are there only because of the Jewish element. They don’t give a damn about Saudi Arabia killing scores of Yemens, or Daesh killing Shias, or Bashir killing tens of thousands of Syrians, etc. it’s the anti-Semitic slant, as always. Then you have the Leftists. Their anti-semitism is well documented and long-standing. Then there are the students, whose motivations are laid bare when asked why they are there, and they just parrot the same crap they hear their uninformed brethren spout. ‘Free palestine’, ‘apartheid’, ‘two state solution’, and other ill-informed crap.
@gamemaster: Watch some march videos. Then tell me that the majority of these people are well informed.
@gasman70: No need to watch videos when I’m present there and I can tell you there’s nothing wrong with it. No one has a problem with Jews no one chants antisemitic phrases. There are actually many Jews along side us too for your information.
The cause of most of the problems today is Zionism! nothing to do with Judaism !
Anti-semetic!
Free free Palestine!!
From Hamas!
From Israel
Go research and stop being ignorant
When Israel bombs your house, wipes out your family registry, bombs your kids, parents, your hospital, your churches, your schools, your university, your mosques, your refugee camps, your bakeries, Hamas would be the least of the problems
You’re welcome to move to Gaza.
Uneducated comments will be ignored
Free Plalestine - FROM HAMAS!
When Israel bombs your house, wipes out your family registry, bombs your kids, parents, your hospital, your churches, your schools, your university, your mosques, your refugee camps, your bakeries, Hamas would be the least of the problems
Netanyahu is a terrorist.
Hamas is quite literally a designated terror group.
By Israeli allies. More countries in the world don’t designate them as a terrorist organisation than those who do. So the term terrorism is very much a political term.
That Israel has openly collaborated with by the way. Why might they do this?
….and WHY might Israel never be declared a terrorist state guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity? Because you will never ever hear the suggestion levelled at them by conventional news outlets or any puppet government in the west.
Why? Because they are all owned and controlled by zionist interests… including all of our puppet politicians on both sides. You don't get anywhere in your political career unless you pledge your allegience to the zionists.
According to what definition ? And if they are a terrorist by that definition why is the IDF not ???
I support Palestine
I stand behind anyone big enough to shield me from the bullets
Freee Palestine!!!!
From Hamas
Israel IDF are terrorist and have killed 13000 innocent lives labelling them human shields!!! The horror israel have been demonstrating for decades is unravelling chronically! The world is watching ur demonising acts and dehumanising a vulnerable nation! This asymmetrical warfare is disgusting! Guided missiles blowing up babies limbs and killing innocents everyday! The world sees the truth!
Is this a joke? You invade another country and kill them in the most barbaric ways, then want support? Yeah they shouldn't have been occupying your territory, but Hamas sold you out - they knew that 10 lives would be taken for every Israeli (most of them civilians), and did it anyway. They knew their actions would kill you and result in your people starving, and couldn't care less.
If anything their actions woke up the giant and the giant showed the world who the real terrorist is! Ur right about that
Your protection is Hezbollah and Iran. You think U.S aircraft carriers care about them? Israel could squash you on their own, but they must at least try and look like they're doing the right thing to the international community.
they knew that 10 lives would be taken for every Israeli
Bingo!…a Zionist sympathiser has actually admitted to their non-publicised death policy- 10 "other" lives for the life of one Jew.
I support Israel.
People who support Hamas are the ones who haven't had the misfortune to deal with Islamic terrorism.
Because they are too busy dealing with Zionist Jewish terrorism. Read amalayek that mental yahoo referred to, that bible is an encyclopaedia for ethnic cleansing.
List 5 Zionist Jewish terrorist incidents around the world in last 10 years.
You can get about 20 in Palestine dating back to 1948, the nakba? King David hotel bombing is a good one here read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
I’m glad u asked.
2018 Palestinian protest over 200 unarmed people killled
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests#:~:text=The%20first%20protest%20took%20place,go%20zone%20imposed%20by%20Israel.@Hay09: So the Islamists are spreading the love all around the world. Glad it's not the Zionists. BTW, I will feel safe living amongst the Zionists as opposed to living amongst the Islamists.
@RSmith: 2023 daily killing of innocents in Palestine! Most recent terror attack by Zionist occupation
@RSmith: What are you talking about? Lol where did I say they were? Ur that blindsided and in disbelief that ur trying ur out most best to push the agenda that israel are the “good” guys. Anyone that is well educated in this conflict understands otherwise. Get a grip.
King David hotel bombing
The early Zionists used brutal terrorism on many, many occasions to force change and gain power and land.
A few of these Zionist terrorists even went on to be in the Israeli government.
Turn on the news and you’ll see daily violence towards Palestinians civilians and civilian infrastructure for political and religious ideologies of Israel. That by definition is terrorism.
@RSmith: Killing innocent children isn’t self defence.
How many children are you comfortable being killed? 10? 100? 1000? All of them?
@RSmith: Human shield is an Israeli propaganda and lie. No proof of that claims exists. In any case there is no justification of killing innocent people even if trying to kill hamas. Try again.
@RSmith: 75 years in an offensive position.. it doesn’t make sense logically to call anything they do self defence. It’s like a rapist calling his motive self defence. Those little new born babies are not rock throwers, and if u see them as “human” shields just imagine it was ur own baby, would u still sacrifice them as such? Don’t think so unless u got a sick twisted mind that is unable to show empathy to killing of innocent children based on their nationality or religion, that would categorise u as a racist my friend, not something to be proud of.
Everyone in the IDF and satanyahu and all the Zionist politicians and ministers
One hadith quoted by Hamas and some islamic government to advocate for the genocide of Jews:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
Yalkut 245c: Extermination of the Christians is a necessary sacrifice.
Why did you use a selective quote? Why not quote the context? Comical.
Don’t take a quote out of context, you can literally do that with any book.
I’m Islam there are many conditions to a war. First being non combatants are not to be hurt !, trees can’t be damaged, kids can’t be hurt, no looting, no mitigating dead bodies, it is prohibited to kill anyone that’s tied, burning is also prohibited.
If you don’t have knowledge please don’t try and use it to your advantage
@sarah965: It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (ﷺ), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said:
They are from them.
Sahih Muslim 1745a
@gto21: Again you’ve taken that completely out of context. If you’re gonna copy paste things Atleast research in to it. Do you know for every quote there is an explanation and understanding
It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) forbade the killing of women and children.
Sahih Muslim 1744The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said that “He is not of us who does not have mercy on young children, nor honor the elderly" (Al-Tirmidhi)
Whoever kills a soul, without [its being guilty of] manslaughter or corruption on the earth, is as though he had killed all mankind, and whoever saves a life is as though he had saved all mankind. (5:32)Quran
Those who are not generally engaged in fighting – like women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and others who do not participate in the fighting – are not to be killed. The Prophet (peace be upon him) prohibited this. His prohibition of the killing of women and children is clearly related by Ibn `Umar in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3015) and Sahîh Muslim (1744).
@sarah965: Muhammad seems indifferent when women and children are being killed in the process. Read slowly what he said: "they are from them." Let that sink in.
@gto21: You don’t have a right to cherry pick and take this out of context from a holy book.
If you’re doing that why don’t you quote Netanyahu ? ‘
“ attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”@sarah965: That's a holy war by Allah. It's in Chapter 2 of the Quran. The King is supposedly Saul and the prophet is Samuel.
@gto21: I don’t understand what you said but I can tell you it is forbidden to kill women and children and non combatants
@sarah965: To address your other claim, Hamas and some Islamic governments quote that hadith to advocate the genocide of Jews. Not me; I'm just reporting what they said.
@sarah965: Quran 5:32 was a command for the Jews: 'For that cause, We decreed for the Children of Israel…'"
You deliberately omitted part of the verse and took it out of context.
The command for Muslims is in verse 33.
You even quoted: "…without [its being guilty of] manslaughter or corruption…"
This means Jews had authority from Allah to carry out capital punishment for specific crimes committed in the land. Which land do you think it's referring to?
@gto21: Here u go a whole list of verses from the bible Old Testament declaring death to disbelievers.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/killing_non_believers
Lol ur a sad guy and with ur back against the wall being the antagonist in this discussion u have to throw out racist attacks to back ur self. Israel are evil doers and the world knows it mate.
@Hay09: If it's wrong it condemns Muhammad as a false prophet. As Muhammad confirm the Torah and Injil. Which mean Muhammad did not find those verse problematic. Maybe that make Muhammad evil for confirming it.
Lol this guy, go read the Torah and how it’s basically a guide book on how to kill “disbelievers”. Everyone is a servant in the eyes of zionists and is a lesser human. Islam on the other hand puts an emphasis on equal human rights.
All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.
@Hay09: If the Torah has any immortality, it proves that Muhammad was a false prophet, as Allah and Muhammad confirmed the Torah.
@gto21: I’m not here to discuss religions with the deaf and blind. I’m here to tell ur that u are a supporter of genocide and should be ashamed of ur self!
@gto21: Israeli literally called all Palestinians human animals and this was in 2023! You would think humans have evolved since the Quran 1400 years ago or even the Torah 3000 years ago! Still calling humans animals in 2023???! And ur talking about historical anaologies! Here mate in real time ISRAEL CALLING PALESTINANS HUMAN ANIMALS!!! How revolting!!
@Hay09: The minister specified that Hamas are animals in some videos. You should examine everything he said, not just one video or one taken out of context.
Regarding the evolving situation. They quran is a book for all-time. Jews are referred to as worse than animals in the Quran. However, you didn't express concern about that, did you?
@Hay09: Regarding what you quoted:
S.F.H. Faizi, an Islamist and author - …but the authenticity of the texts thereof is still doubted by ulema…
@Hay09: Since you are talking about blacks, it reminds me of this chapter name, and it's talking about blacks. 😳
Chapter: The permissibility of selling ANIMALS for ANIMALS of the same kind and of different quality
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported:
There came a slave and pledg- ed allegiance to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)
@Hay09: One of the wall of the concentration camp is Egypt.
The main reason Islam is the fastest-growing religion is the birth rate. However, Muslim warn of an impending tsunami of apostasy.
Anyone who supports Hamas should be deported to Gaza immediately. If that’s too frightening, how about the West Bank or Lebanon. I’m sure the Hamas-supporting West Bank Palestinians and Hezbollah would be quite accomodating.
I thought Hamas does not have a presence in the West bank at all?
They don’t, but the PA have a very weak hold on the reins of power there. WB Palestinians want Hamas, or a similarly violent regime in charge.
You need to enjoy your time in hell :)
Shallow and ignorant
There is no Hamas in the Westbank. I’m not sure what information sources you use but I would suggest you should question them.
Can you read? You support Hamas but they’re not in Australia. West Bank Palestinians openly support Hamas.
Comprendez?
"There is no Hamas in the Westbank"
Are you sure about this?
U should be deported for being so dictator like, last I checked we have freedom of speech in our country. No one is supporting terrorism here mate, ur obviously anti-Muslim and it just puts ur moral compass on display here.
Anti semites might have the louder voice, but that's not going to stop Israel from doing the right thing and completely destroying hamas. The western world is WITH Israel.
You want a ceasefire? Fine… release the hostages, and surrender!Can you not articulate a point without having to resort to resort to the antisemite card? It seems like a tactic to silence opposing voice than to actually call out hatred of Semites, of which Arabs are semites too.
speaking of the weakest of points to latch onto lol.
It’s a legitimate question, feel free to answer.
Lol this guy with the anti semite card, poor victim crying crocodile tears while bombing babies and blowing their limbs apart.
hamas are the aggressors, Israel are the victim, and hamas needs to go….
Some people love their Hamas. The hatred for Israel is so deeply entrenched in them that they can't see the truth or they willingly ignore it.
@RSmith: Israel commits the crimes so don’t be surprised if people call those actions out. You do realise people can oppose hamas and also the action of Israel at the same time. It’s not one or the other. Only an extremist would support hamas or the IDF without question. We need less extremists if there is any chance of a resolution to this issue.
@gamemaster: Why aren't the other Arab countries supporting Palestine? Because they know what kind of problems they'll have to deal with.
@RSmith: They support Palestine and the the Palestinian cause. They oppose the actions of Israel. But if they get involved they been turned into the enemy and become a target. When you have the US, UK backing Israel, you can hardly do much in intervention.
@gamemaster: Funny that… Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc don't allow taking out rallies in support of Palestine. When it can happen in western countries, it would be natural to assume that it occurs in those countries as well.
@RSmith: You are using strawman arguments.
Using your rational why doesn’t Germany take back the Jews?@RSmith: Just FYI, i am palestinian, who lived my entire life in Jordan, because my grandparents barely survived 1948 then 1967 and then kicked out to jordan walking from Telaviv barefooted to Amman (from one country to another), and to let you know that 70% of Jordan occupation is palestinian people originally, who REFUSE that palestinians in the west bank to leave, and ALL are looking for the chance to return and retrieve their land that was TAKEN BY FORCE AND FIRE. the reason the all pelestinians reject this, because once the people out, then there is no return, just like what happened in 1948. My grand parents were living in Hefa, which is not Telaviv. right now, if the person does not hold an israeli passport is not allowed to enter, and whatever you had, is not yours anymore!!!
Funny that you speak of zero knowledge.
It’s like saying the rapist is a victim and the victim is a bigot
the rapists were hamas…. in your infinite wisdom, how were Israel to respond to 7/10?
Nope I’ll be clear israel are the rapists sorry am I anti semite now because I said that?
It’s 7/10 everyday in Palestine at the moment.
you're revolting… you're comparing the barbarity of what hamas did with the people dying because hamas hides behind its civillians? You're sick….
Some Islamists called the women attacked by Hamas "whores."
Non Islamic women are to be treated as such according to the skybook
Please point to the part of the Quran which says that?
They say anti semite because they have run out of options to defend the atrocities of the Israeli perpetrators
atrocities? hysterical…. Israel is the most moral army on the planet. No army in the history of warfare has shown as much regard for their enemies population, unlike hamas who love every point they score when one of their own is killed when they hide behind them…
lol I don’t know what ur moral compass is like but to call the killing of newborn babies unnecessarily due to not supplying basic resources moral, is kinda cookoo.
You're talking about fuel? You mean the fuel that hamas has plenty of and hordes to themselves, and refuses to accept fuel that Israel tries to deliver? You are completely blind to the tactics of the terrorists that are hamas….
Israel isn't targeting newborn babies. They target Hamas terrorists who are notoriously known for embedding themselves within civilian buildings (schools, hospitals, mosques) and using Gaza citizens as human shields, as well as preventing civilians from leaving despite the IDF giving warnings of strikes in advance. Meanwhile, Hamas deliberately targeted civilians on 7/10. There's no moral equivalence.
@Charlieeee: More lies. If you know there are civilians in a building and you still drop a bomb, that’s on you. You’ve killed that child. The fact that this human shield lie is still propagates is comical. Many people see it as BS.
Agree
Or do should we only value israel lives? And discard the human animal Palestinians right?
Did I say that? I mourn all innocent lives lost in both Israel and Gaza… the deaths in Gaza are SOLEY the responsibility of hamas!
Nope the IDF are launching them missiles not Hamas it’s like saying a murderer is not responsible when he clearly stabbed someone to death because he was rightfully provoked!??? What sort of justice system do you stand for?
innocent gazans are being killed because Israel was forced into a war they didn't want by HAMAS, who hide behind and underneath their civillians…
@Mike911: U just repeated justification for my example. Killing of innocents is not justified. U call them human shields I call them innocent babies. I’m calling for a ceasefire and a resolution that meets international law and humanitarian requirements.
@Hay09: there will be a ceasefire when the hostages are released and hamas are no longer in a position to attack Israel, which they've said they will do over and over and over again…..
@Hay09: You do understand what a "war" is, right?
What exactly should Israel have done? come in and raped JUST the right number of gazans? put JUST the right number of babies in ovens and made their parents watch till they died? You've got no idea what you're talking about…. this proportionality argument is futile…@Mike911: Lol here lies the difference, u believe anything that comes from where u are morally inclined to ( support Israel at all costs ). There is no doubt Hamas committed atrocities but the question of burning babies and rape is still open and not evident to say it occurred unequivocally. I love the question of what would I have done? I feel like being the leader of the worlds most technologically advanced military, my options would not just be limited to indiscriminate carpet bombing? But instead i would take that route if I want an eye for an eye or an opportunity to wipe existence of Gaza. Thanks for asking.
@Hay09: there was evidence of those atrocities… and if you honestly believe Israel has carpet bombed gaza, you have no idea what warfare is…. Israel have sent troops in… if they wanted to erase gaza, they could have done it in an afternoon…. the war would have been over on 8/10… So your accusation of carpet bombing is ridiculous…
@Mike911: U don’t accidentally kill 5000 babies and 13000 innocents without carpet bombing? If that’s the IDF being surgical then damn that’s crazy, mind u Gaza is the most densely populated location on earth, but u already know that. How many HAMAS operatives have been killed? That’s how I would measure the success of their offensive really, I think it’s weak when u aim ur weapons at innocents
@Mike911: Rapists and murderers have used this same analogy in a court of law to demonstrate remorse and hopefully incur a lesser punishment. The judge would still label them murderers and rapists regardless of motive and provocation.
@RSmith: In ur racist and prejudice mind, but in my scenario I’m sorry to disappoint u, the Israeli defence force are the rapist and murderers in this story my friend.
@RSmith: Nope I can be clear about this and say Hamas are guilty and must be convicted, but I cannot do this and ignore the atrocities by the IDF, I hope this gives u a better understanding of my position. Thanks and I wish u the best
@RSmith: Where did you see that they were hiding in hospitals, schools, mosques, churchs or whatever? please give me 1 100% proven lead. non mentioned on the IDF is proven to be true, even declined by the western biased media.
waiting your sources my friend.
@RSmith: very clear, whatever ISRAEL says about what they found or think is 90% a lie.
They said that Hamas, or palestinian resistant bombed Al-Ahli hospital, they even provided video and audio. it was revealed by multiple investigating authorities that both video and audio were edited, and revealed the true video, and the audio was recorded in a studio, not a phone call as they claim. and if they can interfere this phonecall, why they cannot find them yet?, also, the damage of Hamas rockets can never do quarter the damage of the rockets or bombs of israel, which was proved to have attached that hospital.
Another lie, after they said it was resistant who bombed al Ahli hospital, they have bombed another 13 hospitals or more, they bombed 3 churchs with christians in them, they bombed 89 mosques up until last week, they bombed UNRWA hospitals. Hamas did all that?
Another lie, they said they found in Rantisi hospital names of terrorists shifting in surveillance of hostages, they are all named of the days of the week (wow what a coincidence ), also, the room was 4x4 with no tunnels and only 1 exit, what a great Hamas base they have found.
Another lie, they said they found tunnels under Al-Shifa hospital and made a 20mins video of it, and they have NOT SHOWN A SINGLE ENTRANCE OR EXIT that leads to the hospital, they only showed in a different video A FRESH DIGGED shaft, with all rubble around it, and they said we found this shaft that is going into a tunnel, but we closed it?!?!?!?!
Another lie, they showed a video of a nurse was screaming for help, with bombing around her, the woman was in fully lit room (not available in Gaza at the time of the released date), and it was quite and clean and with power and TV, clean mask, clean gloves, and the bombing audio was implanted into the video, and it was the same bomb audio copy pasted all the time.
i can keep going, seriously, this is just a tiny portion of what is there!!!!
@Mike911: Hello, again Hello,,,,
Israel was forced into war? Israel are the war its self, please read at least 1 of the books!!!!!
Racist much? Kinda nazi like isnt it
Great deal.
I'm only up to page 3
I support the Palestinian/ Arab and Jewish/ Israeli populations, and it’s for this reason that I am against those who willingly use innocent human civilians, women, children and the elderly, to spread hatred of Jews. Reading Son of Hamas, by the Palestinian son of one of the cofounders of Hamas helped realise who the bad guys actually are, Hamas.
you should read and listen more, you have 2 ears to listen from both sides of the story, not to one traitor, he was never in hamas, even thought he was son of theirs. Money can buy the cheap souls.
Never. Again.
btw… @mods… how can a vote be cancelled???? kinda defeats the purpose of having that option.
There are guidelines for casting negative votes which includes what are justified negs. Violation of these rules can see votes removed. It’s a system which generally works well.
Hamas, sorry, ISIS, has launched a visious attack on Israel on Oct 7, BUTCHERING 1400 civilians at their homes, parents with kids were burnt alive, parents were shot dead in front of their childs, women and teenage girls were raped, hundreds were slaughtered at a PEACEFUL MUSIC FESTIVAL.
AND 240 WERE KIDNAPPED INTO Gaza, 40 KIDS including BABIES are in Gaza tunnels for the last 45 days.
Hamas is ISIS, Israel has to defend itself and fight back and eliminate the Hamas which hides behind civilians popultaion, centres etc.
Would you ask U.S to stop fighting the taliban after 9/11 or the Nazis?!? PURE EVIL HAS TO BECOME EXTINCT FROM THIS WORLDWhat’s that got to do with this deal? These books are about Palestine, not pro hamas. The actions of hamas are widely condemned.
Also you figure if 1400 is incorrect. Please update yourself with the events.
Lol
I mean there's people in this very thread that are justifying Hamas's actions. Also a guy that refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organisation.
The reality is that this deal was political in its nature and this is the kind of discussion that comes from a highly polarized situation.
These books are now free which is why the deal was posted. There is no rule to say books even if political in nature can not be posted. If the books offensive then the sensible action would be to ignore the deal and move on. When people neg a deal, others get curious and take more notice of the deal.
Who are Palestinians, they elected these butchers, murderers, rapists, baby killers. Hamas and Palestinians are same.
Sounds like what a psychopathic genocidal propagandist for Israel would say. Boo to team genocide.
Idiot facts are wrong
You know Israel's continuous oppression and illegal occupation literally created Hamas right? Israel also funded Hamas which embarrassingly backfired.
By the way,I condemn Oct 7 and also Oct 8, Oct 9 , Oct 10, Oct 11…etc because my moral compass is not biased to only 1 day. Save the kids firstLet's not forget that Hamas also fired 5000 rockets into Israel. Their aim was to inflict maximum casualties on Israel. Luckily Israel had the iron dome system which managed to intercept most of these rockets. Even if you take a conservative figure of 5 lives lost per rocket, there would've been 25000 casualties of civilians.
you have just started watching this, first of all, in total hamas fired more than 100,000 rockets in its entire life, however, Israel killed 100's of thousands of palestinians in 1948 and 1967, bombed and tanked and missiled them, they even killed babies, kids, mothers, elderlies, in all ages and colours and religions. this all happened even before Hamas was established in late 1980's.
Educate your self. so shameful to speak with ignorance.
you must have started watching only this season, which started on 7th of October!!
207 plus votes v 20! Palestine is winning this war! Free Palestine!
Free Palestine!
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*from HamasTo be honest even if Hamas was removed from the equation, Israel would just find another group to make the enemy. They did it with the PLO before hamas. Additionally Israel initially backed hamas, so in a way you can say they help create the problem.
Hamas, an extreme Islamic group—please refer to their agenda—took over Gaza by force, throwing PLO officers from rooftops in the process. Once Hamas is eliminated, I hope international forces will be positioned to prevent any terrorist organizations from ruling Gaza. The goal is to ensure that the education system does not teach children to bomb themselves while dying in honor of killing jews. Israel seeks peace, the palesininas have rejected and missed nine peace agreements. For Hamas, it is not about land; it is a religious war. I strongly encourage you to read Hamas' ideology for a deeper understanding.
@yanivsr: But the fact that Israel has killed over 10000 innocent civilians just means more Israeli hatred will be blossom. If someone killed your child would you be so quick to forgive?
Hamas is one issue but the toxic Zionist beliefs are equally as abhorrent. It’s why many good Jewish people are speaking out against Zionism. Which in my opinion is a terrorism ideology, not one of peace and unity.
If Hamas wins the war, they may seek to spread Sharia law worldwide. It's uncertain who the next target would be, but it wouldn't stop with Israel.
@gto21: Hamas is a tiny group in Gaza with no military. That will never happen. But thanks did the laugh.
@gamemaster: I agree to some degree with your comment. Hamas is that delusional. I guess that's the power when you believe Allah is on your side.
Yeah dude, it's called the West Bank. No Hamas, and yet Israel still illegally occupies them, subjects them to an apartheid regime, and illegally settles their land. Israel violates international law with reckless abandon.
Support for Hamas and its “military operation” is even higher in the West Bank
Free Palestine*
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*with the purchase of another Palestine of equal or greater value.
Yup, good too see the ratio. Common sense and humanity rule
More like blind following the blind.
Sure, tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel better while the majority of us use critical thinking and speak up for humanity
Wake up genocide supporters, millions around the world are marching against Zionism and Israel Govt. If you don't have the right facts, go dig deeper. Learn, educate yourself and stop being a fool. Free free Palestine!
And lot of countries are opening their eyes to the scourge of Islamic terrorism.
Netherlands being the latest one.
:) open ur eyes to all terrorist if ur gonna go there, don’t just pick and choose.
there's that bullshit cry of "genocide" again… If they wanted to finish off gaza, they could have done it in an afternoon without putting their soldiers in harms way….
The western world are FIRMLY in support of Israel… You fringe terrorist supporters are loud but a minority…. back in your boxThey have shared their intent to and are currently implementing. Israeli politician was quoted saying we should drop a Nuke there. Go read the proper international law definition of Genocide and u will come to know, what is occurring is clear genocide! And we are not waiting for the wipe out of their existence to call it out. Go back in our box? Did u support Gaddafi? U sound like a dictator.
Except they couldn't, cowards :)
No. Your puppet politicians that are bought and paid for by Zionist interests do though.
Hahaha which western world are you talking about ? You mean corrupt Zionist bootlicking politicians ?? As far as facts are concerned, the whole world stands with Palestine. You need to stop watching 9 news and Fox News
If anyone wants to go to Palestine World Pride 2024, I will pay for the flight tickets.
Don't think return tickets will be required.
I am not into politics of the world but it's interesting to know the history of these non stop war between these two countries during these modern times (5 wars!) It's surprising to see the two country is still ongoing with it.
Our current two/ three super powes of the world depending how you view them. ( the ones with more nuclear weapons besides economy wealth or land size…)
China
Israel - we need to do business with them so no comments business will resume as usual.Palestine - we shared our silent support with you guys as you are the original colonial people but you guys are on your own.
USA
Israel - We are against the hamas terrorism….we will supply weapons to you guys, just keep fire spamming and we will continue to sell you more.Palestine - our hearts are with the people of Palestine, we will donate… ( psst psst, how much money did we make/aid on the weapons sale, 3.8billion Mr P) erm $100 million usd!
Russia
Israel - We are still friends right? I need to get business support from middle east countries since the West have cut out our income.Palestine - we will provide 60 tons of survival items, we cannot sell you our weapons but…. Psst ppst we can sell you USA weapons 🤣 we confiscated from the Ukraine war and remember not to tell Israel.
Among the G20, nine countries (Argentina, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, and Turkey) have recognized Palestine as a state (Indonesia and Saudi Arabia only recognize Palestine) while ten countries (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, the United Kingdom, and the United States) have not
Sigh, human history is always built on the pathway of blood of innocence and war, guess it will never change and will always be in a cycle. I pity the people who are the victims between these war just not fair.
Vinland Saga: Thorfinn:" I have no enemies, it is not okay to harm another human being. "…. What a waste he can really fight 🙄
Says the man not into politics lol we need more people like u, good stuff.
Yeah, lol… did he just get all that pertinent information from the back of a fag packet.
I am Indonesian, what I can say is Israel land belong is to Jewish people, FULL STOP
if you don't agree then read the history
Here to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mR2W43t6tI
Yeah perhaps ur right and the Jews there built a mosque (masjid al aqsa ) in 1035 AD out of the goodness of their hearts. Lol everything may be made in China and so is ur baseless claim.
What about the Western Wall that was built many years before the mosque?
Cool. So being Indonesian makes you an automatic authority?
Being a citizen of the most populous muslim nation in the world would surely lend some insight and credibility.
Not authority but definitely an important view.
Did you know in Israel, it is illegal to do a DNA test , you know why ? Because they will find out they are not native to the land. They will all be from around the world. You can convert to Judaism and go to Israel and become a citizen .
Thanks man. Being Indonesian made you more credible than anyone else.
Politics
If this is a bargain, then next thing I can post here is free e-bible and mark as a bargain.
These books were previously not free, they are now. How is that not a bargain?
Do so at ur own risk,
U may be labelled an anti semite!You're comparing apples and bananas, what would be closer/comparable is if you posted free e-Books of academic works or in depth books written by reputable academics and journalists who wrote about the Bible - whether it's to do with it's history, it's social impacts in a specific era, liguistic or translation choices and their political consequences, etc, etc.
I'd love to (add to my already massive reading list) read a free and legally obtained scholar's analysis on liguistic choices on King James bible and the socio-historical and political reasons behind them without having to pay, I dunno, $50 dollars for a jstor article or something.
Thanks OP. I've been meaning to pick up a copy of "The Palestine Laboratory: How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation Around the World" ever since listening to Antony Loewenstein speak on a podcast. It's fascinating and horrifying how Israeli companies develop these surveillance technologies by testing them on Palestinians. Surveillance technologies which are used around the world by governments against minority groups, politicial opponents, political dissidents, journalists, and activists. I remember reading awhile ago an article which mentioned that while there are laws (in Israel) against selling these technologies to countries with bad human rights records, they're very weak and easily slipped past, which is how they get into the hands of the governments of places like the UAE. Keen to read and do a deeper dive into this.
Also interesting in the other books, though my reading list is already way too big.
Blessed are those that seek knowledge, good stuff man
I've grabbed a copy. Thanks
Recommend: On Palestine - Noam Chomsky & Ilan Pappé
Chomsky? Give us a break.
Chomsky…..is he one of those what you label a "self-hating Jew"?
Pain in the arse aren't they.
Basem Naim, Hamas Head of International Relations has just claimed that the IDF carried out the atrocities of 7th October, and not Palestinians. Israeli jets killed 1200 Jews and 200 Palestinians, and the tunnels found throughout Gaza were constructed by Israel to blame Hamas for terrorist activities.
In other news, Palestinian and LebaneseTV/Radio are broadcasting that they must continue the fight to defeat, destroy and eradicate Israel at any cost, through Jihad. Also, it calls for identifying all Israelis as soldiers and therefore targets.
Any people still support this scum? Lying, murderous, intolerant, terrorist filth. They’d cut all of our throats just for the ‘honour’ of doing it.
Many have no idea of the monster they’re supporting.U my friend need to cut down on watching the racist sky news and read a book.
You’re a complete buffoon. The guy said it himself.
Are all of these terrorist supporting posts all from you? I’d say an IP ban should be exercised.
Don’t be so harsh when the truth is simple and obvious.
There's plenty of hate and propaganda on both sides. The divide is growing.
As someone who supports the rights of Indigenous Australians to their land, naturally I support the indigenous peoples, whose uninterrupted presence for millennia in the region, gives them the right to inhabit their land. Never Again will Jews be subject to the horrors of Nazi Germany.
So Christians have right to claim Nazareth? Because Jesus was born there
Jesus is Jewish, he’s also the promised Messiah of both Jew and Gentile.
I thought the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah to come.
The Pharisees hated Jesus.
Never Again will Jews be subject to the horrors of Nazi Germany.
The sick and dark irony of this is that they became the very thing they swore to destroy
Three-quarters of Palestinians Support Hamas’ Attack on October 7, Says New Poll.
I’d say the same proportion of Lefties would agree.
People who dumb down issues into lefty vs righty are probably the ones who only read clickbait headlines and not the articles.
Again with the personal attacks. If you can’t articulate a point without personal attacks why bother posting. Just stay on the sidelines if you don’t have any valid points.
@gamemaster: Every point is valid. The fact that you sidestep every one is your issue, not mine.
Perhaps you need to pull your head in a little, or at the very least, know what the hell you are on about.
@gasman70: Being critical of Israel is not antisemitism. If anything calling it’s against violence and genocide is a noble cause. I fully support that. Under no circumstances is killing innocent children and babies acceptable.
That’s because 100% of Palestinians have been living under occupation and oppression for 75 years, what do u think they wouldn’t support it? Put ur self in their position? Would y just take a bone ur whole life and accept that u will have no past present or future?
Occupation and oppression? OMFG. Keep drinking the cool aid.
Actually, its a concentration camp to be aligned with definitions and living conditions.
Prior to Israel ‘occupying’ the West Bank, and Gaza, Jordan and Egypt occupied each region respectively. Prior to Jordan and Egypt, it was Britain, prior to Britain, it was the Ottoman Empire, prior to the Ottoman Empire, it was the Byzantine, prior to the Byzantine, it was the Roman, prior to the Roman it was the Greeks, prior to the Greeks it was Medo-Persia, prior to Medo-Persia, it was the babylonians and assyrians, etc. There was one population who consistently lived there the whole time.
Yea, I’d be oppressed too if I tried to start several wars by rounding up the gang and getting beat every single time.
Peace and love!
So adamant to drag Australia to a war that had nothing to do with them lmao
if u love the middle east so much why not migrate there?
It sounds you are projecting your opinions rather than commenting on this deal.
because its not a deal same as Games for Gaza bullshit
This isnt PoliticsBargain
It has been for yonks. Blame the right wing (profanity) who saturate the space.
Australia is providing weapons to Israel and patting satanyahu on the back as he commits a genocide. We have already become involved
Another typical response when trying to defend innocent Palestinians babies. I wish to live in my beautiful country of Australia but I fear some speech here creates threats of anti semitism and Islamophobia, so I choose to speak out against such hate crimes to maintain the status quo that is a peaceful, loving and respectful majority nation we are.
Islamophobia is a myth, it was created to stop people pointing out the bad ideas of Islam. Criticising a religion isn’t a phobia.
Is Scientolophobia a thing? Mormonphobia?
Is it possible you feel islamophobia is a myth is because you want a free pass for hate speech towards Muslims and Islam? At what point does it become hate speech or all comments acceptable?
Who said anything about muslims? Why do you keep misreading everything? Are you Cathy Newman?
Islam is a religion, and while I think little of any religion, I feel Islam is by far the worst. We don’t see baptists or Catholics loving death more than we love life, or killing in the name of their religion. Also, when was the last Mormon killing of a gay person, or apostate? Do Jews routinely kill their daughters for brining ‘shame’ on their families?
Do you think criticism of religion or bad ideas is a line that shouldn’t be crossed.
@gasman70: Over 1.5 billion worshipers and all you have is your biased cherry picked views of Islam. I hate to break it to you, the majority of the people are regular everyday people who just want to live a peaceful life.
I can also cherry pick…
Christian’s and the multiple crusades embody hate and death. The illegal wars in Iraq based on lies perpetrated by western democracies would be a big another murderous act. Buddhist murdering Rohingya in Myanmar would be considered evil. The Christchurch terrorist. In fact more terrorist acts are committed by right winged groups.Most of the Islamic beliefs are from Judaism, they are abrahamic religions.
@gasman70: If 1.5B people are Muslim and if in your opinion they are violent why isn’t there violence everywhere. Why aren’t all Muslims killing anyone they see, everyday? The reality is vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. Your arguments fall apart if you don’t cherry pick.
I would suggest you go a talk to people of the Islamic faith, just have a conversation with them and you’ll see they are regular people who want to get on with their lives. Maybe your hardline views may soften.
@gasman70: You claim him as Muslim because he articulated his response to ur Ludacris post really well. I would say he is somewhat educated and actually seeks knowledge without prejudice. If that is what being a Muslim is then sign me up.
@gamemaster: Ok, ok. Just answer a couple of simple, straightforward questions.
- Is gay marriage/homosexuality a sin?
- Should anyone be allowed to leave their ‘faith’, including Islam?
- Should religion be open to criticism?
- Is Islam inclusive and tolerant?
@gasman70: U preach too much hate man, ur questions are antagonising and hypocritical. All human values should be respected, that’s the beauty of life, we are all different and to the benefit of each other, not so we can sit there and point and criticise what each human values. Learn some respect man, it’s posts like urs that is triggering and misleading. This conflict did not start October 7 that’s just when u started caring about it. Trot along mate.
@gasman70: Again with the cherry picking. Ask the same question to Judaism and you’ll get the same answer.
I can see you are trying to project your subjective morality as the only correct view. I’m sorry but you don’t have any moral authority nor any objective means to test your morality.
@gamemaster: Muslims conquered land from India to Spain; one doesn't conquer that amount of land through self-defense. One reason the Crusades happened was because Christians were defending their land. Without the Crusades, Europe would probably be Islamic.
@gasman70: So you think Islam is the worst. Is that why it’s the fastest growing religion in the world ? And so many more are actually picking up the holy book reading it and converting. Please be respectful in the way you talk about it
@sarah965: 'Please be respectful in the way you talk about it'
Why? Free speech is about being respectful or disrespectful as you want. As long as you're not espousing violence or calling from the committing of crime, you should be as disrespectful as you see fit. Just agree or disagree, debate and discuss. Everyone bring a winner.
@sarah965: The main reason Islam is the fastest-growing religion is the birth rate. However, Muslim warn of an impending tsunami of apostasy.
Exactly. All it does is stifle some of the genuine concerns that Western society has about the increasing presence of Islam in the West.
Maybe if the west stopped bombing middle eastern countries to steal their natural resources people wouldn’t need to migrate. So they bomb their home, take them as refugees and then complain about why they are here
Perhaps the worst thing about 7/10 terror attacked Hamas was not the hostages, not even the 1400 dead (which, by the way, unlike Israel who gave Gazan residents 3 weeks to evacuate south before attacking, were attacked without notice), it’s the gratuitous and sickening violence for the sake of violence, that was carried out on women, children and whole families. It is horrifying reading the accounts and seeing the images and videos that were proudly broadcast by Hamas.
3 weeks to evacuate? What planet are u living on. Get ur facts right before u speak please it’s misleading. So approx 3 weeks after October 7 is October 28. Read this https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-10-29-2023-…
October 28 Israel already killed 8000 innocent Palestinians. Damn people are really blindsided
Your figure of 1400 is incorrect much like the rest of your comments.
Perhaps the worst thing about 7/10 terror attack… was carried out on women, children and whole families. It is horrifying reading the accounts and seeing the images and videos that were proudly broadcast by Hamas.
As bad as it was it was last months news. Many thousand of Palestinians have been killed by Israeli since then. Over 10000, that’s the latest story. The cruelty of the Israelis towards the Palestinian people. Attacking hospitals with false claims of Hamas HQ, lying about Hamas rosters which turned out to be a calendar with the days of the week. Plenty of lie. Maybe you need to keep updated with what is occurring as 7/10 was several weeks ago and Israelis acts are magnitudes more abhorrent.
@gamemaster: In a way you can see why Hamas HQ is hiding around a hospital - they are facing a much more powerful army that could wipe them out easily if out in the open. But it sure is intersting listening to people who are convinced Hamas HQ is nowhere near hospitals… where do these sort of people get their news? The Hamas official social media channels exclusively ???
@slick7: The claim is made by Israel so the onus is on the Israelis to prove the claim, which they haven’t. Don’t you remember the entire Iraq 2003 war? All based on lies. Israel is doing the same IMO.
Anyway it’s pretty barbaric to attack a hospital regardless. Killing one hamas is not justified by killing one or more innocent civilians. The moment you start justifying innocent civilians being killed, you’ve lost your humanity and become the monster you are fighting against IMO.
@gamemaster: "The claim is made by Israel so the onus is on the Israelis to prove the claim, which they haven’t."
Do you hold the other side accountable to their claims as well?
Israel has offered evidence in support of their claim. I take it then, that you have seen it and don't believe it?
@Strange1: Their claims have been debunked including by western media. Some of the claims were comical.
I believe all claims should be reviewed regardless of “sides”. At the same time claims shouldn’t be dismissed just because it comes from the “other side”. Unfortunately using lies and propaganda is a part of war. It’s up to the media to verify the claims, I don’t think they have done a good job at that.
@gamemaster: Indulge me and share with me the Western media that have debunked the claim about Hamas having operations underneath the hospital (Western media). I've seen no major Western media do this.
You'll agree there is a lot of mis-information around (both sides), so it never hurts to discuss these things.
Here are some links from CNN/BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67478425
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-sh…@Strange1: Try the ABC's Media Watch for starters,(it mentions several news reports) and before you regurgitate the 'lefty' slur, the host was completely unbiased on the topic.If you think Israel & Mossad don't spew BS you live a sheltered life. Israel has committed war crimes.Terrorism by statehood
@Protractor: Hi @Protractor - i regularly watch Media Watch, and saw this particular episode. You are right that he pokes holes in some of the Israeli claims, but his conclusion at the end is that we aren't sure. It certainly was not "debunked". And i think the host himself would not appreciate people making claims that aren't actually reflective of what was said … that's kind of the point of the show. I also note that this episode aired before further evidence was provided (that sealed door wasn't open - and really that's the most compelling evidence).
It's not really helpful that you are putting words in my mouth "lefty slur", accusing me of living a sheltered life. I read media from around the world including Al Jazeera. I think i've been respectful to anyone posting in this topic, with exception to a couple of choice posts that are blatant racism (but these thankfully got removed).
There is a lot of mis-information on this conflict - i don't pretend it's one sided (nor do i believe the person i was responding to believed it either).
And as for whether media watch is completely unbiased - i don't agree. That's my opinion. Just like your opinion is that it s.
@Protractor: Name calling? You don't have the necessary skills to debate me on this, do you?
Thought you would thrown in that you watch "Media watch" and "you live a sheltered life", to give the impression to others that you are somewhat an expert in this area.
It's a pity. And why this sort of conflict will continue for many more years to come.
@Strange1: Rubbish. You claim to not be one eyed and then go on to side with Israel. I pointed out Media Watch as a starting point for readers because I was impressed at how they walked a straight line. The main point you deliberately missed on that episode was this BS claim about the so called extensive Hamas HQ under the hospital. At the time Israel claimed to have evidence of it. Yhey had no such thing.All they showed was their own footage not media or independent) of weapons and other sundries located in a few locations. The tunnel section found days later was short and had a dead end.
MW exposed BS on both sides but only one side has relentlessly proceeded with a political Armageddon much akin the the principles the Jewish ppl built their martyrdom status on. Hypocrites much?
IDF is FOS and you'd be pretty gullible or desperate to trust anything Mental Yahoo says.@Protractor: "the principles the Jewish ppl built their martyrdom status on"
Bang. Thanks for at least being honest about your motivation behind your posts. I rest my case.
@Strange1: There you go. Your total denial of the 180 degree back-flip on what defines the Jewish ppl. Apparently their morality is interchangeable. Also your dishonesty in claiming to be unbiased, and the hypocrisy that followed was a beacon, in your 1st response. This is why Israel will continue to fail every test of humanity, and it's supporters keep shutting down any scrutiny of the decades long ethnic cleansing.Even Israels own non fundamental population are calling it out."
You can fool some of the ppl ,some of the time….
@Protractor: I responded respectfully to another poster on an event. To be fair, that poster was very respectful in his/her tone, even if i disagree with his/her arguments.
You responded to my post, made a claim (which i debunked), and for good measure put words in my mouth and used terms like "sheltered life'.
We could have continued discussing the Media Watch interview (and the conclusion that you should be drawing is that no Western Media that i'm aware of has successfully confirmed or denied the Israeli claims)
BUT
You started name calling. Then you brought in generalizations about people of a entire religious group. There are others in this topic labelling all Muslims as terrorists. You are as bad as them. There are literally millions of strangers with a pro-Palestinian viewpoint - i'll debate the topic respectfully with the many of them out there that are respectful, and don't resort to cheap racism.
And for the record this is the second time you've accused me of claiming to be un-biased. When did i ever do that? I'm clearly arguing from a pro-Israeli perspective - but I'm certainly aware of the complexities of a two-sided conflict over many decades, where a lot of blame falls under both sides.
@Strange1: "You responded to my post, made
a claima recommendation to view MW (which i -I wish I'd debunked),"Your last sentence / paragraph is the same hollow apologist chaff the Mental Yahoo IDF churn out to milk weapons from the USA.
Michael Frante sung it best. "You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace"
The facist thinks he can. Do you seriously think the world and Israel is safer now, and will be safer post this obliteration?Not often I hear posters complaining about being called unbiased. And I'm glad you are 'aware of complexities'. Personally I think those complexities are going to create a whole lot of hurt across the planet,beginning with Israel, for decades to come. Maybe climate change impacts will head it off…
Stop speaking logic. The terrorist simps here will go back so far and talk about the kingdom of Palestine. I mean kingdom of Israel and maybe even Judah. Unreal.
See that Jackson Hinkle tanky actually posted a Jewish coin from the early 1900s stating it was Palestinian… its SMH stuff.
Anti-Muslim may be the better legal term. And also the term terrorism shouldn’t be associated with a religion or nationality. Should read the definition of terrorism closer to understand this. Anti hate crime legislation are in place to protect anti-Muslim and Anti-semitism violent crimes. To call it a myth is really ignorant.
I am apolitical and this humanitarian crisis is none of my business
Save the whales
Save the
COMMON NAME SCIENTIFIC NAME CONSERVATION STATUS ↓
African forest elephant Critically Endangered
Amur Leopard Panthera pardus orientalis Critically Endangered
Black Rhino Diceros bicornis Critically Endangered
Bornean Orangutan Pongo pygmaeus Critically Endangered
Cross River Gorilla Gorilla gorilla diehli Critically Endangered
Eastern Lowland Gorilla Gorilla beringei graueri Critically Endangered
Hawksbill Turtle Eretmochelys imbricata Critically Endangered
Javan Rhino Rhinoceros sondaicus Critically Endangered
Orangutan Pongo abelii, Pongo pygmaeus Critically Endangered
Saola Pseudoryx nghetinhensis Critically Endangered
Sumatran Elephant Elephas maximus sumatranus Critically Endangered
Sumatran Orangutan Pongo abelii Critically Endangered
Sumatran Rhino Dicerorhinus sumatrensis Critically Endangered
Sunda Tiger Panthera tigris sondaica Critically Endangered
Vaquita Phocoena sinus Critically Endangered
Western Lowland Gorilla Gorilla gorilla gorilla Critically Endangered
Yangtze Finless Porpoise Neophocaena asiaeorientalis ssp. asiaeorientalis Critically Endangered
African savanna elephant Loxodonta africana africana Endangered
African Wild Dog Lycaon pictus Endangered
Asian Elephant Elephas maximus indicus Endangered
Black-footed Ferret Mustela nigripes Endangered
Blue Whale Balaenoptera musculus Endangered
Bluefin Tuna Thunnus Thynnus Endangered
Bonobo Pan paniscus Endangered
Bornean Elephant Elephas maximus borneensis Endangered
Chimpanzee Pan troglodytes Endangered
Fin Whale Balaenoptera physalus Endangered
Galápagos Penguin Spheniscus mendiculus Endangered
Ganges River Dolphin Platanista gangetica gangetica Endangered
Green Turtle Chelonia mydas Endangered
Hector's Dolphin Cephalorhynchus hectori Endangered
Humphead Wrasse Cheilinus undulatus Endangered
Indian Elephant Elephas maximus indicus Endangered
Indus River Dolphin Platanista minor Endangered
Irrawaddy Dolphin Orcaella brevirostris Endangered
Monarch Butterfly Danaus plexippus Endangered
Mountain Gorilla Gorilla beringei beringei Endangered
North Atlantic Right Whale Eubalaena glacialis Endangered
Red Panda Ailurus fulgens Endangered
Sea Lions Zalophus wollebaeki Endangered
Sea Turtle Cheloniidae and Dermochelyidae families Endangered
Sei Whale Balaenoptera borealis Endangered
Sri Lankan Elephant Elephas maximus maximus Endangered
Tiger Panthera tigris Endangered
Whale Balaenoptera, Balaena, Eschrichtius, and Eubalaen Endangered
Whale Shark Rhincodon typus Endangered
Bigeye Tuna Thunnus obesus Vulnerable
Black Spider Monkey Ateles paniscus Vulnerable
Dugong Dugong dugon Vulnerable
Giant Panda Ailuropoda melanoleuca Vulnerable
Giant Tortoise Vulnerable
Great White Shark Carcharodon carcharias Vulnerable
Greater One-Horned Rhino Rhinoceros unicornis Vulnerable
Hippopotamus Hippopotamus amphibius Vulnerable
Leatherback Turtle Dermochelys coriacea Vulnerable
Lion Panthera Leo Vulnerable
Loggerhead Turtle Caretta caretta Vulnerable
Marine Iguana Amblyrhynchus cristatus Vulnerable
Olive Ridley Turtle Lepidochelys olivacea Vulnerable
Polar Bear Ursus maritimus Vulnerable
Snow Leopard Panthera uncia Vulnerable
Southern rockhopper penguin Eudyptes chrysocome Vulnerable
Albacore Tuna Thunnus alalunga Near Threatened
Beluga Delphinapterus leucas Near Threatened
Greater Sage-Grouse Centrocercus urophasianus Near Threatened
Jaguar Panthera onca Near Threatened
Mountain Plover Charadrius montanus Near Threatened
Plains Bison Bison bison bison Near Threatened
White Rhino Ceratotherium simum Near Threatened
Yellowfin Tuna Thunnus albacares Near ThreatenedCommon denominator in this sad list and this tragic conflict……us humans.
Lol
(profanity) war crimes and (profanity) everyone thinking war crimes can be justified as "self defence"
If you are using terror to combat terrorism, you are a terrorist yourself. So (profanity) you
take your meds and latibulate.
So true. I say just let the iron dome do its thing. Seems fair. Smh
I’m not going to + or - this deal as to do that is to pick a side, but can humanity just behave like civilised people for once. While we’re busy fighting pointless battles and wars over whose version of whatever sky fairy is “right” or “wrong”, the real loser is planet earth and the environment. It’s almost as if the powers that be WANT us to be divided so that we don’t unite against THEM!
Aren’t you being antagonistic and divisive by using the term “sky fairy”? Seems a little hypocritical tbh.
Ok we can use the term god, divinity, father.. whichever. That’s ok. It’s something that doesn’t physically exist. It’s just an idea that has developed over many millennia by different groups of people. They are free to support whatever they want to support.
That’s very disrespectful and unnecessary. This is not about religion. Educate your self. Israel has a major political agenda and that is to kill/push the Palestinians out so they can steal their land.
Research the history of Beersheba (for example) and the history of Palestinians. Then tell me whether it's about religion and who's land it is.
And Hamas aim is to kill all Jews.
Next.
On a side note: Love how so many people think that when you start and lose wars you actually get to define the terms. This land that was never an Arab state has been given so many chances. Though much can be blamed on Yasser and the other warmongers surrounding this Holy land.
The river to the sea crowd are a total blast. Wish I could crowdfund random rockets to on the side just fund my retirement. Crazy stuff. If it wasn’t so real and sad you’d laugh.
I know! How dare these people refuse so many chances for giving up their land to other people!
Except that it was never their land. Before Israel, it was ruled by the British. Before that, the Ottomans. Then the Mamluks, Crusaders, Fatimidis, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Israelites.
Just because it was perpetually colonised, does not mean that there was no native population.
Many nations in Africa were colonised by the British and the French, does that mean the native populations do not exist and/or the land belongs to no one?
@DewinDell: Just curious about the point your making - would you say the rule of the game is who ever gets there first owns it forever?
Maybe buy a history e-book too boss.
Maybe it will make a difference, maybe not but one of the best books you can read is a peace to end all peace….it explains how much of what has occurred in the middle east developed as a direct result of imperial meddling from the British and the Russians, and then the other European powers, between the 1800s to the end of WW1…
It might help to understand what a mess this is, how responsible all parties are for the general situation, while being able to state unequivocally that the murder of civilians is unacceptable, as is their use as human shields and tools for a terrorist resistance.
Peace ✌️
Don't you wish you could turn back time?
.Bring me a battleship and I can turn back anything lol
Looks more like propaganda to me. Every single one of these books is anti-Israel.
which part of which book? I take you have read these books to make that claim?
Yep.
Free propaganda! I'm getting one for everyone in my family so they can better sympathise with Hamas. Thanks OP!
😆 LOL
yep
Has Mental Yahoo's golden boy joined the fight yet?
I've run away from them all the way to this other side of the planet, just to see their crap also exist here.
But why did you click on the deal, login, make a comment? Wouldn’t it have been easier to ignore the deal. It’s some free books, no one is forcing you to download and read them?
Id love to hear more details if you feel like sharing
Well, I didn't want to "politicize" the comment section, but I guess it's too late.
I lived in the region under religious law (see, I don't even have to tell you which religion) for most of my life and was taught about the religion, (their) ethics, hollybook, etc. for years in school. So I know enough to know it's not about freedom, children lives, etc. If it was, we should have seen free books about the 85000 children (of the same religion of course) who died from starvation during a war raged by (between) the biggest supporters of Hamas.
There's just too much to cover here. And for me it's not just about this, it's about how they treat women, children (read little girls), homosexuals, journalists, minorities, etc. It's 2023, there should be some eligibility criteria to form a country. If they are willing to implement Australian constitution/law, then I'd be the first one supporting them, but we know that's not going to happen.
Again, too much to cover. What makes me even sadder though, is that I saw hundreds of millions of oppressed women forced to wear hijab there, but here it's being promoted as diversity. I know all it takes is a minority of crazy people to take down a great nation, while the majority is silent; yet here I see a small minority shouting crap in front of the Oprah house, and yet the majority of people are like, meh.
The OP posted free books, let me just mention one free wikipedia page here:
From the river to the sea there is only one flag U see 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
Why do most Western governments (aside from Ireland) including ours support Israel unconditionally though? Old mate Albo used to support the Palestinian cause back in the days but did a 180 recently, does Israel have dirt on him?
Lobbies and money.
Politicians get bought and change their ideologies based on economic influence, money and and media. Even if it means supporting immorality. They rather stay in power even if they have to be complicit with questions actions of foreign influences.Israel is also a nuclear state.
They want the billion barrels of natural gas and oil off the coast of Gaza.
Maybe because they were the victims of a massive terrorist attack recently?
At least partially because they're the only functioning democracy in the Middle East. Further, across the spectrum their human rights are out of this world compared to their neighbours, for example take a look at this LGBT+ rights index graph.
One could easily argue the rest of Middle East need to follow the Israeli lead. Western governments certainly realise this.
Interesting dicussion thread. Always intrigued by how other people's minds work and what factors contribute to their misinformation and biases. On the topic of this being a deal, it's not. You could spend your Black Friday looking for some actual bargains instead…
Not the time and place for this. Keep this politics off here.
The title alone is in stark contrast to the claim of providing a "deeper understanding of what's happening in the middle east right now". It is nothing more than propaganda masquerading as a deal. I find the whole thing abhorrent.
It’s a book. You don’t need to read it. It might be insightful to others. I can’t see the issue. It cost money before and now it’s free.
For those that think this is about Hamas please do your research and think again. Why did the west try and invade Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Lybia, the west has been a cause of destruction in the Middle East even the genocide happening now in Congo, all for the theft of natural resources
Why is the Us and Britain so heavily involved in this war ? We’ll have a read :
‘New discoveries of natural gas in the Levant Basin are in the range of 122 trillion cubic foot while recoverable oil is estimated at 1.7 billion barrels, according to the study, entitled “The Economic Cost of Occupation for the Palestinian People: The Unrealized Oil and Natural Gas Potential.”
This offers an opportunity to distribute and share about US$524 billion among the different parties in the region and promote peace and cooperation among old belligerents, the study notes.’https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil…
Have you also heard of the Suez canal ? Well Israel and the US want to make their own and to do that they need to take over Gaza and let me tell you that they won’t stop at Gaza.
Oh is that why Hamas raped young girls and burnt babies? Because of the West, natural gas, and the Suez canal?
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-23/all-art…No evidence to the rape or burnt babies by Hamas . It’s only what Israel claims and Israel did massacre a lot of its own people with their helicopters and tanks. Have you heard of the Hannibal directive protocol Israel implement? They would rather kill their own people than have them be hostage. They implemented that protocol on October 7 hence why they massacred a lot their own people with their tanks and helicopter and hence why there were burnt people and cars. Hamas didn’t have any tanks
But honestly there is so much more to October 7 that the public doesn’t know yet. Did you also know the venue of the nova music festival was changed 48 hours prior and Hamas was not even aware so Israel changed it with a purpose , I wonder why ?
The amount Israel has lied is just beyond ridiculous
There's no evidence that there are 14,000 Palestinians dead, this is only what Hamas claims.
Also have you heard about the misfired rockets that Hamas and Palestinian Jihad fire? Including the one that destroyed a hospital?@fredblogs: There is actually video footage of every attack and every destruction and every person murdered by Israel. There are billions of witnesses to the genocide Israel is causing because it is happening live for the world to see.
The one that hit your hospital was from the fault of the rockets fired from your own iron dome.
@sarah965: There's video evidence of the Hamas atrocities of October 7, often filmed with their own GoPros. Hamas is actually proud of their rapes and murders of Israeli children. One terrorist called his mother proudly telling her he had killed 10 Jews with his own hands. The phone belonged to a Jewish woman he had just murdered. The dad calls him a "hero".
Not sure what you mean by "your hospital". It was the al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City, hit by a misfired rocket from Palestinian Jihad.
The video footage you speak of showing destruction was also caused by misfired rockets. But it's common for Hamas to blame Israel for every misfortune that befalls them.@fredblogs: U know I’ve tried so hard to find these videos u speak of as u make it sound very accessible for people to witness, but I keep getting to a road block. I want to believe what ur saying but unfortunately it just seems to be speculation on ur part. Only evidence I stumble across are innocent Palestinian children without limbs or innocent women and men lay dead on the ground amongst rubble massacred by indiscriminate carpet bombing.
@Hay09: Oh and you’re looking in the wrong places if you can’t find the video. Follow Motaz Azaiza a young journalist that has been documenting everything and there are many like him. It’s a shame Israel massacred 60 Palestinian and 2 Lebanese journalist in the last 45 days
@Hay09: You can't be looking very hard. Took 5s to find this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omTTRqZhw8Q
Just curious, do you also deny the holocaust?@fredblogs: If you call that video evidence then that’s just very embarrassing. There was no proof of rape or that Babes were killed. That really showed nothing but the after math of Israeli tanks and helicopters because as far as I know I don’t think hamas has any tanks or helicopters, maybe home made grenades but they don’t cause damage like that
This here is what evidence means
@fredblogs: You mean those calls staged by Israel ?
Also look up cnn and the guardian, no evidence to rape . Keep up with the upto date informationHahaha and you believe Hamas hit their own hospital ? Another lie created by Israel and then they go and bomb every other hospital out there .. please
@sarah965: CNN, evidence of rape: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/world/israel-investigates…
And mutilation: "I saw him chop off her breast and then he was throwing it toward the road, tossed it to someone else and they started playing with it.”
These are the people you're defending?@fredblogs: I don’t think you read them properly. There’s a lot of he said she said, but still no physical evidence is available to back up the claims.
Try this one, maybe will make more sense to you from time of Israel page
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id…
@sarah965: That article has videos of Palestinian terrorists admitting that rapes happened, including with children and dead bodies.
Again, these are the people you're defending?
@fredblogs: IDF actually publish the death count too my friend… goto their website it’s all there buddy. Israel are crazy mofos specially that mental yahoo acting off emotion.
Of course America has NEVER done stuff like that during their faux reasons wars…
They want the billion barrels of natural gas and oil off the coast of Gaza
AND
Hit it right on the nail Sarah965…as the saying goes "Follow the money"……and who usually has most of the money?
Sure go ahead and read these but also read other points of view, dont be a bubble person.
It is fundamentally wrong of verso books to offer a free bundle with only one side. It's propaganda.
Books aren't the problem.People are. We are tribal.Period.
Humans bang on about "humanity" and the state of the world shows we have bastardised that word till it shrivelled up.
It's as over used as 'moral high ground'.
At this point someone should just call those swallowing the US Israel versions as woke. LOLMental Yahoo is a rabid facist
terrorist propaganda ……. or alternatively you can just read Hamas's charter … what a lot of BS
The charter for 2017 states they want a two state solution with Palestinian having their own recognised state.
Which part if you don't mind? I looked, I couldn't find it. I found this in page 6, point 20:
Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.
They define what they mean by 'river to the sea' on page 2:
Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit.
I.e. all of Israel.
If you’re gonna cherry pick a statement at least mention the whole statement . It continues on with “ Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.”
Do you know what the line of 4th of June 1967 is ?? That was right of Palestine, but Israel continuously been stealing more their land. Just google the map of Israel and look how over time they have taken over more and more land for the last 75 years
@sarah965: Hamas outline the obliteration of Israel as I mentioned above, and your statement mentions only a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem its capital. Can you link to a map of where Hamas agrees Israel should remain as their own state?
Israeli terrorist
Israel= Nazi Germany
Lol how the tables have turned from oppressed to oppressor
JHC this site is shit to load today
Lmaooo, keep going, please.🍿 😂
I’ll never understand the post-modern left. Islamism is a totally barbaric system that enslaves women, defenestrates gay people, and beheads western journalists… But because they’re a slightly darker shade of brown than the indigenous Israelis - whose ancestral ties to that land go back at least three thousand years, to the beginning of recorded history - leftists support them and think that Israelis should be driven into to mediterranean sea (ie Holocaust 2.0)?
I really think leftists need to explain this inherent contradiction. Do they believe in feminism? Do they believe in gay rights? Do they believe in a free press? Do they oppose beheadings? If they don’t believe these things- then left is evil and should be made illegal and leftists sent to reeducation camps.
On the other hand, if they do support those things then they MUST oppose Islamism and support Israel.
Reconcile your hypocrisy, leftists!
Israelis are originally from Poland, do you know it’s illegal to get a dna test in Israel? They’ll do it all just to hide the truth and maintain their pathological lies!
Do the rightists believe in bombing babies? Removing fuel from hospital that subsequently results in incubators to fail and new borns dieing? Do rightists just support hate crime in any shape or form? Do rightists understand true human values and the beauty of everyone’s difference and how mankind should all be viewed with equal understanding of their own values?? Or do u wish to adopt ways of dictatorship and force people to believe absurdity and lies and call it a democracy? It’s a free world mate anyone can be and believe whatever they want! The only thing the rightist represent is cruel racism! It’s funny cause if we discuss the holocaust and the sheer hate that the survivors have for Germans in comparisons with Gaza concentration camp inmates hating Israelis, you deem this moral incomparable?? They never gave Gaza any hope! Any deal ever negotiated crumbled quicker than u can think because of Israelis position reigning supremacy over the Palestinians! They would give no concessions during a negotiation and expect Palestinians to crumble! U should be ashamed of ur self! Supporting genocide in Gaza and even low level ethnic cleaning in the West Bank where Hamas doesn’t even exist! Shame on you and your interpretation of where moral sovereignty must lie! Be human feel human and share equal standards for all nations! You make ur position one sided and sided with a view of lies, conspiracy and manipulation! You believe anything israel say because ur a slave to the system of the oppressors! Ur weak minded because u choose the strong but morally wrong side to feel superior! Shame on you!
I know right.
It was years of 'believe all victims'.
Now they are all like 'but there's proof of rape'.
What is going on? Like wtf?
Tbh I think both sides are bad. Both sides are commiting war crimes and basically just doing whatever it takes to get a victory. The most dumbest though is the US supplying arms and weapons to a war that has nothing to do with them. If anything would have been better if the US were promoting a ceasefire than fueling the war
Also if you neg at least have the decency to comment instead of being a cowardly douche bag
Many thanks, OP. There are some great books there. Appreciate your post.
Before anyone rubbish this deal, this is legit a good book. Here's a review by Francesca Albanese, UN rapporteur. Please educate yourselves by actually reading facts from a Jewish's POV.
"Not surprised at all that #ThePalestineLaboratory won such an important award. I started reading it on my way back from Australia & I simply could not put it down. Well researched facts, strong analysis, necessary context, and also beautifully written. Well done
@antloewenstein"
.We're down voting FREE books now?
It’s just the minority racists that oppose any insight to any view other than their own. Even if it means it’s free, if it doesn’t suit their agenda then it’s false even though this book contains many factual information about the Palestinians.
People be giving you a negative because they are offended but what you say … smh that’s the kind of people they are
freepallestine
No matter how many books, tv shows and rallies are out there.. fact is hamas started it, Israel will end it.
I'm certainly against killing innocents, no matter which side but what options does Israel have if coward hamas leaders prefer hiding amongst Gazans?
These stupid hamas supporters dont understand that Hamas themselves dont care but rather also torture and kill their own citizens.
Hamas is the least of their worries. Israel bombing their families, churches , schools refugee camps, stealing their land is the issue for them. You know, with the amount of orphans now, Israel has created more hamas for themselves
Some of the comments here are pretty disgusting.
Especially those downplaying the atrocities that occurred on 7th Oct.
No one who's rational doesn't understand that Israel's treatment of Palestinians has been poor and urgently needs to change but that shouldn't give license to justify or try to pretend that the barbarity displayed by Hamas, not the Palestinian people as a whole, was sub human. Anyone who labels Hamas' actions as 'resisting' or those of 'freedom fighters' needs to have a good look at themselves. Rape, torture, hostage taking and worse are not acts of resistance when they're perpetrated predominantly on a civilian population.
There are definitely two sides to this. Neither side is blameless so to see this as black & white shows a level of bias, especially by those throwing around the term 'Zionists' to cloak the word Jews.
Looking at this impatially without a dog in the fight, logic would dictate that anyone who cares for the civilians of Gaza and wants to see the huge loss of life, cease, should be marching in the streets calling for Hamas to surrender so that not another shot need be fired.
At the same time, the citizens of Israel will be throwing out Netanyahu & his cronies in the hope that the next government are able to forge peace and work towards a viable two state solution. But the immediate step to stop this war would be for all the hostages taken on Oct 7 to be released and for Hamas to surrender. It would be the end of needless dying.Mental Yahoo will do a Putin and reform the constitution so he will be King of Israel forever. Watch this space. Israels voters have already stepped into his dirty little trap and are ruing the decision.
How about calling for the removal of Mental yahoo now, rather than recommending a march for Hamas to surrender? Do you really think any Arab or Islamic countries will ever trust or work with the facist?One of the parties is a democracy and the other is an authoritarian dictatorship who hasn't allowed the people of Gaza to have a say since 2006.
Your language, name calling, lack of understanding and diversion away from something that would immediately end civilian casualties right away, to me at least, rules you out as someone who truly cares for the Palestinian civilians caught up in the middle of this war.And Israel can do,has done no wrong? Yeah, I got the memo. Why haven't you called me a terrorist supporter yet, that's the usual pattern.Do you recall Biden asking for calm reactions early in the conflict?He admitted the USAs overreactions, that basically incubated ISIS. Israel is doing the same thing? World peace ? Not happening while the right wing zealots rule the world.
Here, have a read.>
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/@Protractor: Did you actually read what I initially wrote? Let's compare your comments vs mine.
I said "No one who's rational doesn't understand that Israel's treatment of Palestinians has been poor and urgently needs to change" AND "Neither side is blameless"
So I don't understand your rush to assume that I said or implied "that Israel can do no wrong".
You're just showing that you're incapable of looking at situation in a genuine manner, which means apportioning blame on both sides. That's why I reckon your one sided opinion is meaningless and unhelpful.@JudoChop: I did, and you implied that the solution for those who want an end to atrocities is that they should take one route or else they are phoney,basically. I note your use of the word 'dictate', which is why I consider your bending of words meaningless and unhelpful. Israel and it's current regime are incapable of treating civilians they way they would like to be treated. They have justified thousands of civilians deaths seeking one target. This is nothing but a racist hate payback by a facist. Dictate is a word very applicable to the IDF and Mental Yahoo.And to the whole ignore the death toll argument Israel is using.
I knew OzBargain was the best place to come to solve the world's problems!
Go Israel.
Bibi - go hard and then go harder.
Finish this now.
There u go, no need to pretend to be civil. Ur racist supremacy views are patent. Nothing to be proud of mate but I’m more concerned about what ur capable of. New Zealand Australian terrorist that carried out attacks on innocents in mosques shares ur same rhetoric. U are a threat to society and should be on a watch list.
What a senseless meaningless comment.
Awww diddums
I think that's very biased to just hone in on one New Zealand Australian attacking a mosques when muslims attack churches in Africa constantly but mainstream media don't bother picking it up. Also the countless Muslim terrorists attacks in Western countries
Go, Israel!
We, the people who DONT
think our own God is great, and every other religion or that religion's god is inferior to our religion OR
DONT want to convert every other human on the planet to our certain religion, OR
Hold any radical ideology or who are part of a massive global community who want to kill an entire race or religion or want to "gas" anyone OR are anti-Jews or Anti- Western OR
Who are not grateful for the country we have migrated to OR
Who dont want to assimilate or respect law and culture and people of the country we have migrated to
WE ARE WITH ISRAEL!!!
Do you support the killing of innocent children? Your statement seems to approve of it. Atrocious.
Have you ever gone to school or taught to respond rationally to someone???
@[Deactivated]: I think I’m the one here portraying any rationalism. Your anti Muslim views are one sided and purely racist. Last I check being a racist is not being rational.
@[Deactivated]: Go on and cheer the killing of innocent children in Gaza. Do ur supremacy kind proud.
Wow and now you have deleted your previous comment and posted more crap.
So you think, those babies killed, women raped in Israel were not innocent?
You think those Israeli babies had super human brain to have hatred to someone?!?!?!You definitely seem to support that otherwise you wouldn't have posted such absolutel DUMB comment
@[Deactivated]: U see where me and u differ is I do condemn any atrocities against innocent human lives both in Israel and Gaza. However with ur double standard, and the way ur cheering Israel’s response, it’s clear that u don’t care for Muslim lives hence making u anti Muslim.
Sound like you disagree with Muhammad.
It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (ﷺ), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said:
They are from them.
Sahih Muslim 1745a
@gto21: Maybe have a proper read of your bible. Plenty of violence and rape. Is that in keeping with your beliefs?
@gamemaster: Muhammad confirm the Torah. If it has immorality that would make Muhammad a false prophet.
Muhammad allowed sexual crimes on war captive.
@gto21: Judges 19.
Is that what you believe?
Raping and killing women? That’s in your bible. So maybe you should worry about your own beliefs.@gamemaster: Muhammad confirms the Book of the Jews. If it has rape. That will make Muhammad immoral. It was Allah who allowed it in chapter 4 of the Quran. Allah allows the Muslims to sexually abuse the war captive. And the hadith says that their husband was still alive.
Both Allah and Muhammad approve of sexually abusing those women.
🤮
@gto21: It’s your book mate. Your bible is a violent book. Why are you so obsessed and angry with Islam. It’s like you are projecting your frustrations onto islam and Muslims. I’m going to leave it here as I do worry this is causing you distress. Maybe leave all the religious stuff on the sidelines for a while and just enjoy your day. Take care mate.
@gamemaster: Good. I want to avoid speaking about Muhammad. He is so disgusting, he makes me want to vomit. I'd rather not talk about him. But if you come back, I won't have a choice. The books of the Jews were confirmed by both Allah and Muhammad. If it's wrong, then Muhammad and Allah are wrong.
If you have read any comments that glorify terror, please remember that you can report anyone who labels Hamas' actions as 'resisting' or those of 'freedom fighters' to ASIO here and they'll probs be put on a watch-list.
I love Australia just the way it is, western and free. Let's help keep it that way.Is that you, George Christensen?
Pauline?
Matt?Listen to the son of Hamas co-founder as he denounces group at UN, and exposes 'Savage' indoctrination of Palestinian kids.
VideoI hope these 30 minutes educate you more than all of the propaganda in this "Deal", it's worth it, as it is also free. Best of all you get to hear the truth from the mouth of someone closer to the conflict and Hamas than any of the people in this comments section
No thanks, YT really has gone downhill.It full of pus from shape shifting moon units
Why not take heed of what actual smart Israelis are saying about Mental Yahoo, every single hour of every single day?
The man is a toxic facist@Protractor: Just for you, on the UN.org website (that's the United Nations for anyone who doesn't know), glad I could help alleviate some of the conspiracy concerns you had.
The son of Hamas co-founder part starts at 11:05@Hamsahamsahamsa: Let me guess, on any other day you'd be bagging the UN?
What's the UN saying about war crimes by Israel right now? Which do you think matters?https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israel-gaza-un-experts-u…
@Protractor: So… you're just not going to watch this because you're afraid of being confronted by some uncomfortable truth?
Here you go, another link to the UN speech by the son of Hamas co-founder, his part starts at 11:00
@Hamsahamsahamsa: No, I'm not going to watch because it's coming from a fat QLDer with an agenda.
Which part of the UN press release do you disagree with?@Protractor: You make no sense, why are my abbreviated username and an agenda preventing you from watching the UN speech? I feel that you're a bit afraid to open your mind to a perspective that might change your mind about this topic. Here you go, click here
@Hamsahamsahamsa: People with closed minds shouldn't lecture people with open minds. You're like a heavily invested JW flogging Watchtower. Move on.Broaden YOUR mind.Which part of that UN press release I linked is wrong?
I'll make it easy, but read the rest that I linked>
Israel/Gaza: UN experts urge lawyers advising Israeli military to refuse legal authorisation of actions that could amount to war crimes
GENEVA (23 October 2023) – UN experts* today called on all lawyers advising the Israeli military to refuse legal authorisation for acts that may amount to war crimes in retaliation for the Hamas attacks on Israel.
“We unequivocally condemn the massacres of civilians and hostage-taking by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Israel,” the experts said. “Those acts, committed against civilians, were atrocities.”
They noted that since the 7 October attack, the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) have been reportedly preparing for a ground invasion.
“Israel has launched a barrage of deadly airstrikes into densely populated civilian areas in the Gaza strip, destroying or damaging homes, hospitals, markets, and UN Reliefs and Works Agency (UNRWA) buildings,” the experts said. The airstrikes have reportedly killed more than 3,400 Palestinians and injured more than 12,000, including children.
The experts also noted that Israel increased its blockade on Gaza, cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel supplies.
“As Israel responds to Hamas and conducts operations in Gaza, all lawyers advising the military must identify and seek to prevent actions that may amount to war crimes. They have a professional duty to deny legal authorisation for criminal acts,” the experts said.
“Lawyers must refuse to give legal authorisation for actions that violate international law,” they said.
read the rest. Open mind and working heart required.
@Protractor: When asked why they built tunnels instead of having more bomb shelters for the Palestinians, one Hamas speaker said they built tunnels to protect themselves, and it's not their responsibility to protect the Palestinians. (Although they are the elected government). They stated that it's the responsibility of the UN and Israel.
@[Deactivated]: You shared a video showcasing Israel's assistance in constructing a bunker to expand hospital operation space. However, Hamas is now using the bunker for its operations. Did you watch the video content before sharing it?
Furthermore, you did not even understand the point I was making.
I'm aware of the hostage release through media reports. Israel is releasing more hostages than Hamas to ensure their release.
You misunderstood my comment and the video. What's the point of engaging in a conversation with someone like you?
Antisemitism has dogged Western civilisation since the middle-ages and the level of it has risen and dipped over the centuries culminating, obviously, in the Nazis racial war. Since then, it's been relatively dormant and not a big issue - until the 21st century. Now it's on the increase across the West and this can be mainly attributed to the increasing presence of islam in the West. Sure, there are plenty of non-muslim sheeple, 'useful idiots' who bleat along but the main thrust of it comes from islam. This is a direct result of the failed attempts at multiculturalism within Western democracies. Multiculturalism has not worked basically and now we're left with the mess. Western nations have allowed this to happen and we only have ourselves to blame - future generations are not going to look kindly upon us. Now there's kickback happening. Consider this - the Netherlands, one of the most liberal of liberal democracies, an open and welcoming society, just elected Geert Wilders to probably be their next PM. If that's not seismic, then nothing is.
Hahaha
I'm sure there's no violence,misery,death,destruction and negative outcomes in your turgid daydream.
Time to go. The mange is getting too thick in here.
“There’s no Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There’s only a brutal Israeli occupation.”
-The editor in chief of Israel’s largest English language newspaper.
Freedom of the press in a democracy. Great innit!
Freedom of the press in Gaza - discuss.
Hamas Charter 1988 - Article 13
"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement … There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors … As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
A big fat down vote for bringing political crap onto a sales site. None of us understand what's going on over there with the media spin on things.
Aaaaaand let it begin.
Some real armchair wisdom here… =\
Are these books what " You Don't Mess with the Zohan" is based on? Can someone also post some Fizzy Bublech Soda Stream syrup deals
Just take a look at the character and conduct of the 'protesters' for either side - tells you all you need to know.
Meanwhile in Perth: https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/abc-perth-off…
Would have posted an ABC link if there was one…
Boy I'm sure these comments will be sane and respectful.