Fined for Turning Right at No Right Turn Sign in Medical Emergency (NSW)

BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 16:15
Last edited 05/01/2024 - 17:12 by 1 other user

Hi everyone, as we were driving on a main road, our 10 month old baby started choking.

Distressed and needing to urgently attend to the baby, I turned right at a traffic light (on green turning arrow) into the entrance of an abandoned construction site and turned on the hazard lights. However, there was a "No Right Turn" sign (despite the green traffic light permitting the right turn).

I have dashcam footage with audio where my wife and I have stated "my son was choking". The police officer responded by saying you're close to home (we were a 5 minute drive from home). I then responded saying "do you want me to allow the baby to choke for that long". The officer responded "Hell no…". The cop was totally arrogant and ignored anything we had a to say. It's clear that no reasonable person would turn into the entrance of a construction site but for an emergency.

I've now been fined for disobeying NSW Roads Rule 91(2).

I would appreciate any suggestions or tips.

Many thanks,
Sand.

Automotive Traffic Infringement

Comments

  • jugsy on 05/01/2024 - 16:17
    +64

    Appeal + escalate + appeal + escalate. If you have lots of spare time and mental health bait Current Affair

    • oscargamer on 05/01/2024 - 17:04
      +42

      What nonsense.

      Just object to the ticket. Let the courts decide.

      • Benoffie on 05/01/2024 - 18:51
        +17

        In SA, you can write an objection to the Commissioner of Police. I would do this and outline circumstances and evidence.

        I would bet it would be tossed very quickly especially if the officer failed to assist in a medical emergency as they are trained to do so.

        This is definitely a fact I would be highlighting

        • BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 21:52
          +8

          Thank you! The cop totally ignored repeated comments from my wife saying baby was choking (on dashcam).

          • Widget on 05/01/2024 - 23:55
            -4

            @BuBerryCo: Write an objection and make a complaint against the police officer. If they fail to act, tell them you're going to A Current Affair.

          • mattmel96 on 06/01/2024 - 22:24
            -1

            @BuBerryCo: So from this we can assume that you also have the preceding Dashcam footage of your wife screaming at you to stop the vehicle as your child is choking, and you then making the illegal turn. You will want to keep that video file if you elect to take the matter to court.

            How long after the incident did the police arrive? As my Dashcam stops recording after I turn the engine off, which I would have done before I got out of the seat to assist my wife if I was in a similar situation. So as yours was still recording do we assume that you had got back into your seat and restarted the vehicle when they arrived?

            My question would be why you didn't turn to the left or continue through the intersection and pull over in the bus lane. The right turn lane is quite long so it seems strange to have chosen that course of action that needs you to cross two lanes of traffic when other options are available.

            • DazMon on 15/01/2024 - 22:20

              @mattmel96: So as yours was still recording do we assume that you had got back into your seat and restarted the vehicle

              Some people like me have constant power supplied.

              • mattmel96 on 20/01/2024 - 12:38

                @DazMon: So yours records 24/7? What model Dashcams do you have?
                Most of the ones that have 'parking mode' have both constant and ignition power. They record constantly whilst ignition is on but drop back to a reduced mode waiting for a trigger such as a bump or such.

                • DazMon on 20/01/2024 - 22:31

                  @mattmel96: I have a Navman Smartbox.
                  Well worth the extra cost.

            • Slinky0111 on 19/01/2024 - 09:08

              @mattmel96: Also unsure why you would turn the car off. You going want to assist as fast as you can, put the car in park and put the hand brake on and get out. Also keep the air con on in a distressing situation.

              • mattmel96 on 20/01/2024 - 12:42

                @Slinky0111: Habit, after 40-odd years of driving, it would be select P, Park brake on and ignition off, seat belt unbuckled out of pure muscle memory.
                Requires no conscious thought freeing up conscious mind as to how best deal with the actual emergency.
                Having been a first responder to a number of accidents, I remember them and what actions I took but have no recollection of putting the car into park, handbrake, etc

      • HeWhoKnows on 06/01/2024 - 07:58
        +23

        And lodge a formal complaint against the police officer for being so arrogant and unhelpful in an emergency.
        They are supposed to facilitate. Not fine you!

    • nobro25 on 06/01/2024 - 08:26
      +8

      It's a medical emergency. It's not that the OP is being negligent any other time if the OP is being lazy or just making excuses then they should pay the fine.

      In this instant instance they have grounds to stop there for a medical emergency. Also it's not like they have stopped in the middle of the road obstructing traffic.

      The irony is if they actually did stop in the middle of the road they might've been all right and just put their hazards on for a few minutes.

      At the end of the day the cop just had a power trip.

  • ThithLord on 05/01/2024 - 16:25
    +30

    That Police officer sounds horrible - I wish you luck, OP. Hope your son is ok!

    • Caped Baldy on 05/01/2024 - 19:58
      +27

      My recent interactions with cops has not been positive. A lot of pricks and assholes.

      Highway patrol even among the police are known to be jerks.

      • OzBestDeal on 05/01/2024 - 22:38
        +8

        I worked as police contractors years ago, and yes I agree with how majority of police regards highway patrols as jerks. Normal police will assess circumstances and more lenient depending on the circumstances… but highway patrol.. hell no, they're there to make money.

  • Butt Scratcher on 05/01/2024 - 16:31
    +23

    It's not really the cops place to make those kind of decisions.

    Prepare some evidence and submit an appeal to revenue NSW.

    Failing that, take it to court

    • Shoocat on 05/01/2024 - 16:35
      +13

      I would take this to court. You'd expect a magistrate to side with you in this instance!

      • Butt Scratcher on 06/01/2024 - 09:13
        +2

        To be honest, I wouldn't be quick to jump onto OP's side. But if OP feels strongly about, should definitely appeal it.

        I'm aware security guards are required to do basic first aid courses and need to redo it every few years. I'd imagine it's the same for cops, since I'd say it's even more important for them to do so. Same for some general workplace managerial positions

        Basic first aid courses teach you how to recognise when a baby is choking and what to do. So I'm guessing the cop would've made some kind of judgement and would've been capable of handling the choking, if the baby was choking.

        • I like freestuff on 06/01/2024 - 10:12
          +6

          “He stopped choking just before you got to the window”.

    • Sinnerator on 06/01/2024 - 08:45

      so, police, if someone is dying write them a ticket ??? hmmmm

      • quick-dry on 06/01/2024 - 12:39
        +2

        recent world events would suggest one accepted method is securely pin them to the floor betwen the head and shoulders until their choking and flailing ceases to be a danger to them or anyone else.

        This method isn't universally accepted, as it has shown to result in extra paper work

        • RevolverUpstairs on 07/01/2024 - 14:51

          I hear if the victim has a deadly amount of fentanyl inside of them this works a treat too!

          • quick-dry on 07/01/2024 - 15:56
            -3

            @RevolverUpstairs: eesh, -3, should I have added the "/s"? is that ppl who think I think cops on necks is cool? or people who dislike implying cops on necks isn't cool?

      • Butt Scratcher on 07/01/2024 - 10:23

        Quite frankly OP should be glad that the cop was there. They're required to have a current first aid certificate.

        I did a basic first aid course ~5 years ago, pretty sure it has expired by now, but still remember what to do if a baby is choking (I don't have the best memory)

        • Slinky0111 on 19/01/2024 - 09:11

          Doing something is better than doing nothing.

    • fullmetal on 06/01/2024 - 18:17
      -2

      Yeah, magistrates should be patrolling the street instead.

      • Butt Scratcher on 07/01/2024 - 09:57
        +1

        Yes, and cops should be presiding over courts instead

    • sween64 on 06/01/2024 - 20:00
      +2

      Police Officers can use discretion and not issue a fine.

      • bp2000 on 08/01/2024 - 13:11
        +1

        💯 … strongly disagree that police officers can't use discretion. It's a large part of the job imho, and I've seen it happen a few times. This sounds like 💯 the time to exercise that discretion.

  • JimmyF on 05/01/2024 - 16:44
    +2

    Fined for turning right at No Right Turn sign in medical emergency (NSW)

    There is always a 'reason' the law doesn't apply to everyone.

    Why didn't you just stop at the lights and check on your child?

    • El cheepo on 05/01/2024 - 20:23
      +19

      Probably would of just got fined for obstructing traffic then 😂

      • JimmyF on 05/01/2024 - 20:38
        +9

        Would have been cheaper though ;)

        • El cheepo on 05/01/2024 - 20:55
          +35

          Ah, a true gentlemen of Ozbargain.
          Look hard enough and the savings are everywhere haha.

    • BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 21:53
      +8

      Looking back at it - that would have been the cheapest and most rationale option. We are first time parents and in an emergency didn't make the best decision.

      • photonbuddy on 05/01/2024 - 22:13
        +5

        We are first time parents and in an emergency didn't make the best decision.

        I think you made the right decision, especially if there was a green arrow - suggesting little to no danger to other drivers.

        Take it to court, and then send the clip to the rabble-rouser media outlets!

        • lgacb08 on 06/01/2024 - 04:27
          -2

          I think you made the right decision, especially if there was a green arrow

          Not sure if that was the case, OP implied green light permitting could also mean just general one single green light that would normally allow you to go ahead or turn right or left if there's no other contraindication, which was not this case. Otherwise he'd say the green right turn light.

          • SpainKing on 06/01/2024 - 08:12
            +3

            @lgacb08:

            Distressed and needing to urgently attend to the baby, I turned right at a traffic light (on green turning arrow) into the entrance of an abandoned…

            Reading

          • photonbuddy on 06/01/2024 - 09:50

            @lgacb08:

            Otherwise he'd say the green right turn light.

            Well done to you!

            Now … back to school for some reading and comprehension classes!

      • dbmitch on 05/01/2024 - 23:39
        +6

        The best decision is any that helps your child immediately.

        You made the right decision.

        • brawndo on 07/01/2024 - 12:20
          +1

          Some might say he made the right decision

    • Assburg on 06/01/2024 - 17:00
      +3

      Yes, https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal…

      If you're afraid someone is experiencing a serious medical emergency you have a common law defence for any otherwise illegal actions taken in your attempt to resolve that… e.g. stealing a car to drive a dying person to the hospital, shooting someone who is going at another person with a knife (which isn't "self"-defence).

      The seriousness of the potential injury is obviously linked with the seriousness of the crime that will be forgiven, but like with all defences, the onus is on OP to prove on the balance of probabilities that is the case.

      With dashcam footage/audio/the choking ongoing with police officer there you'll probably get it thrown out before it goes to court. If the kid is just "coughing"… cool join the club but still curious as to why your wife couldn't just lean back and resolve situation.

      Be prepared to address that point.

    • Azro on 07/01/2024 - 12:24
      +1

      "Why didn't you just" wrote a person sitting in their comfortable chair at home.

      • JimmyF on 07/01/2024 - 14:38
        -3

        wrote a person sitting in their comfortable chair at home.

        I hope you are writing this standing in the rain and wind then, instead of a comfortable chair. As clearly only those uncomfortable can have a say right?

        Check it out for yourself, https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B041'32.7%22S+150%C2…

        Kids choking, surely the OP could have stopped in the turning lane they pulled into to turn right to check on the kid rather than complete an illegal turn or went through the intersection and stopped in the bus lane, or turned left. Many choices, but at the end of the day they turned right when it said they can't.

        • Azro on 07/01/2024 - 15:21
          +1

          I mean you don’t always think rationally when in emergency. I’m surprised I need to explain it.

          • JimmyF on 07/01/2024 - 15:46

            @Azro:

            you don’t always think rationally when in emergency

            What emergency? The OP wife was in the back with the baby! There was no need to break the law or stop instantly to 'save' the child.

            https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/824655?page=1#comment-1480…

            I’m surprised I need to explain it.

            What that people claim the law doesn't apply to them because they claim 'emergency'. Bit like the post from a few days back, some guy who didn't eat all day and then claimed their sugar dropped so had to pull over in a no stopping zone and got fined for it.

  • Muzeeb on 05/01/2024 - 16:50
    +11

    However, there was a "No Right Turn" sign (despite the green traffic light permitting the right turn).

    Is this a NSW thing?

    • JimmyF on 05/01/2024 - 16:54
      -3

      Is this a NSW thing?

      Nah, just a road rules thing…..

    • ihfree on 05/01/2024 - 16:56
      +13

      I've never seen that combo.

      OP, maybe you can tell us which junction.

      • Muzeeb on 05/01/2024 - 16:57
        +14

        Probably poorly described by OP. We need an MS Paint to clarify.

        • ihfree on 05/01/2024 - 17:05

          My only thought would be time based with no filter light. We need Street view.

          • Muzeeb on 05/01/2024 - 17:11

            @ihfree: That would make sense but also sounds like setting drivers up to fail.

        • Jimothy Wongingtons on 05/01/2024 - 17:51
          +1

          @mspaint

          • BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 21:50
            +1

            @Jimothy Wongingtons: Is there a way I can share a photo from the dash cam on OB?

            The right lane had arrows pointing right for 20m, then a green traffic light to turn right BUT also a no right turn sign. Makes no sense but that's how it was

            • OzBestDeal on 05/01/2024 - 22:42
              +2

              @BuBerryCo: Upload to imgur and share the link on OP (edit your post)

            • yummycoot on 05/01/2024 - 22:42

              @BuBerryCo: select my account then files to upload the pic on OB and get the link and paste it here.

      • Roentgenium on 06/01/2024 - 09:34
        +1

        I can think of at least one junction in NSW which fits this criteria, however it has has buses excepted

      • filmer on 06/01/2024 - 16:50

        Sounds like there was a standard greenlight, but not a red turning arrow. With that said, given you can never turn right it would be silly to have a turning arrow.

  • brad1-8tsi on 05/01/2024 - 16:56
    +9

    You can appeal via the Revenue NSW website. It's all written on the fine notice you received. The policeman should have mentioned this.

    I'd also suggest that you and your wife do a good First Aid course - not one of the crap ones that are all on line and do 4 hours of "show competence". It's a cheap investment in your ability as a parent.

  • Baysew on 05/01/2024 - 17:20
    +2

    I've now been fined for disobeying NSW Roads Rule 91(2).

    If there is a no right turn sign at an intersection, or another place on a
    road, a driver must not turn right or make a U-turn at the intersection or
    place.
    Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units

    Seems correct, you did break that road rule. You may need to go to court and plead your case.

    • Muzeeb on 05/01/2024 - 17:35
      +4

      It's illegal to break the road rules in the event of an emergency. OP forgot to turn on his blue and red rotating beacons. Easy mistake to make.

      • Switchblade88 on 05/01/2024 - 17:45
        +1

        Are the rotating beacons a blank cheque exemption for road rules?

        Asking for next time I create an emergency.

        • LukeS on 07/01/2024 - 15:44

          Nope.

          Rule 306 of the Australian Road Rules establishes which rules can be bent by an emergency vehicle, if safe and reasonable to do so.

      • spaceflight on 07/01/2024 - 16:13

        It's illegal to break the road rules in the event of an emergency

        However a medical emergency is defence to having broken the law.

        Stealing Assburgs comment

        If you're afraid someone is experiencing a serious medical emergency you have a common law defence for any otherwise illegal actions taken in your attempt to resolve that… e.g. stealing a car to drive a dying person to the hospital, shooting someone who is going at another person with a knife (which isn't "self"-defence).
        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/824655#comment-14809757

        https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal…

    • johnno07 on 06/01/2024 - 12:10
      +1

      If you have a reasonable excuse for breaking a road rule it's a defence (i.e. if the officer, in their discretion, fines you, then you take it to the maggie's and defend your actions). My experience with being pulled over has been such that if there was an actively choking infant in the car that I would bet that I wouldn't have been fined - so it does seem a bit sus. But if you've got audio "proof" then it's probably worth taking to court.

    • spaceflight on 06/01/2024 - 18:38

      However there was also a green right turn sign.

      Which one do you choose to be the one that must be obeyed?
      Which one is incorrect?

      • LukeS on 07/01/2024 - 15:45

        If there are two conflicting signs/signals, the more restrictive one takes precedence.

        • spaceflight on 07/01/2024 - 16:16

          Is that established somewhere or just your assumption?

          Traffic lights are a more restrictive control device because they are electronic, can be managed to account for current conditions etc.

          A sign is a dumb device that may not be correct or reflect the current road conditions.

          • MrFunSocks on 07/01/2024 - 21:09

            @spaceflight:

            Traffic lights are a more restrictive

            More restrictive as in what you can do. "No right turn" is more restrictive than "yes you can make a right turn".

            • spaceflight on 08/01/2024 - 11:57

              @MrFunSocks: Read what I said, I was not taking about the restrictions of what can/can't be done.

              Traffic lights are a more restrictive control device because they are electronic, can be managed to account for current conditions etc.

              It is reasonable to assume that a traffic light would be more correct than a sign.

              • MrFunSocks on 15/01/2024 - 14:43

                @spaceflight: Read what the person you replied to said. They weren't talking about "control devices", they are talking about which rule is more restrictive. No right turn is more restrictive than "yes right turn is allowed", like I said.

                • spaceflight on 15/01/2024 - 19:15

                  @MrFunSocks:

                  Read what the person you replied to said.

                  I did

                  They weren't talking about "control devices", they are talking about which rule is more restrictive.

                  I know, and as I asked

                  Is that established somewhere or just your assumption?

                  It seems that is just an assumption.

                  No right turn is more restrictive than "yes" right turn is allowed", like I said.

                  Which comes right back to what I originally said.

                  Traffic lights are a more restrictive control device because they are electronic, can be managed to account for current conditions etc.

                  A sign is a dumb device that may not be correct or reflect the current road conditions.

                  What do you trust?
                  The static sign which has been there for a long time and might have forgotten to be removed or the electronically controllable traffic management system which can be updated at any point and should be reflective of current conditions.

                  If you are flying on a plane do you trust the date/gate printed on your ticket (the sign) or do you trust the TVs around the airport (the traffic light)

                  • MrFunSocks on 16/01/2024 - 12:57

                    @spaceflight:

                    If you are flying on a plane do you trust the date/gate printed on your ticket (the sign) or do you trust the TVs around the airport (the traffic light)

                    Completely different scenarios. In the OPs situation there isn't a no right turn sign given to him as he turns onto the street. It's there, concreted into the ground. It's permanent. A paper ticket printed out isn't permanent, it's indicative of the details at the time of printing. If the no right turn sign was no longer applicable it wouldn't be there. It is there, so it's applicable.

                    • spaceflight on 18/01/2024 - 21:32

                      @MrFunSocks:

                      Completely different scenarios.

                      No they aren't.

                      They are both referencing a static piece of information (ticket/sign) and a dynamic (traffic light/monitor)

                      In the OPs situation there isn't a no right turn sign given to him as he turns onto the street.

                      That's because there is a green arrow given to him by the functional and dynamically controlled traffic light.

                      It's there, concreted into the ground. It's permanent.

                      Actually it's stuck onto the traffic light pole.

                      In 2017 there was a NRWL sign attached too
                      https://www.google.com/maps/@-33.6927157,150.9141504,3a,45.5…

                      That's apparently fallen off in the last 6 years as it's no longer there.
                      https://files.ozbargain.com.au/upload/330117/109630/screensh…

                      A paper ticket printed out isn't permanent,

                      Nether is a road sign attached to a traffic light, the traffic light is permanent.

                      it's indicative of the details at the time of printing.

                      Just like the sign being added, maybe it was right when they added is years ago.

                      Half of it's now fallen off and there's an overriding traffic light.

                      If the no right turn sign was no longer applicable it wouldn't be there.

                      How do you know somebody hasn't forgotten to remove it?

                      It is there, so it's applicable.

                      How do you know?

                      Traffic lights are electronic, can be managed to account for current conditions etc.
                      If the sign was still applicable then the traffic lights shouldn't have been programmed to give a green arrow.

                      • MrFunSocks on 19/01/2024 - 12:48

                        @spaceflight: If the sign wasn't applicable it wouldn't be there lol. You're wrong in every single way here.

                        • spaceflight on 19/01/2024 - 16:35

                          @MrFunSocks: If the sign was applicable the traffic light would have been programmed so it didn't direct traffic in a way that it shouldn't.

  • GordonD on 05/01/2024 - 17:25
    +14

    That's an unusual response to your baby choking. To turn right.

  • lunchbox99 on 05/01/2024 - 17:35

    How would a 10mo be choking? Were you feeding it while driving?

    • Muzeeb on 05/01/2024 - 17:37
      +1

      It may suffer from GORD.

      • lunchbox99 on 05/01/2024 - 18:56
        +1

        Oh yeah, maybe. They do sometimes puke for no reason…

      • BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 21:55
        +3

        He has reflux

        • Scrooge McDuck on 06/01/2024 - 12:26

          Does he eat a lot of dairy?

          • BuBerryCo on 06/01/2024 - 15:36
            +1

            @Scrooge McDuck: He is mix fed. Dairy based formula (Aptamil for reflux)

            • MITM on 06/01/2024 - 16:07

              @BuBerryCo: I know condition this well. One day it just stops. Hang in there.

  • JIMB0 on 05/01/2024 - 17:56
    +5

    Please post MS Paint drawing along with the dashcam footage.

  • Ynk on 05/01/2024 - 17:58
    +16

    You had a green turning arrow and a no right hand turn sign? I've never seen that before!!!! I can't believe that's a thing.

    • Drakesy on 05/01/2024 - 18:27
      +7

      I have a feeling it was a green light with a no right turn arrow, you're completely right though as that would be counterintuitive.

      • BuBerryCo on 05/01/2024 - 21:48

        I'll try to upload the pic.

        It was a green turning arrow + no right turn sign.

        • Inertia-g on 06/01/2024 - 08:15
          +7

          Pretty sure that’s not a thing - unless the no right turn was a temporary sign due to the construction or something?

        • Lurk Hartog on 06/01/2024 - 09:01
          +5

          Just post the google maps link.

  • bdl on 05/01/2024 - 18:05

    Hell no…

  • Drakesy on 05/01/2024 - 18:27
    +2

    Ummm
    And if someone hit you would you tell your insurance "but my baby was choking therefore i was in the right"

    Unfortunately rules are rules, get to the hospital legally unfortunately.

    More importantly, if you were stopped and baby is still alive was it really choking?

    • Some Human on 05/01/2024 - 19:40
      +1

      I don't get why wife couldn't lean between the seats and help the baby until OP could stop the car safely.

      • kerfuffle on 05/01/2024 - 19:42
        +1

        Wife would probably get done for not being restrained by a seatbelt properly

        • Some Human on 05/01/2024 - 19:44

          I figured it would be harder to spot than a car making an illegal turn.

    • bobbified on 05/01/2024 - 23:19
      +2

      There are some rules where a medical emergency is an exception that's written into the wording of the rule The rest can be decided by a magistrate, but need to bring proof like medical notes, etc.

    • spaceflight on 07/01/2024 - 16:18
      +1

      and baby is still alive was it really choking?

      It's impossible to be both dead and choking.

      If you are choking then you are alive

  • 7ekn00 on 05/01/2024 - 18:36
    -5

    How do two people help with a choking infant compared to one?

    Send the non driver over the console into the back seat to attend the issue and keep driving or pull over to the left :/

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