The Queensland government will give out rebates of between $3,000 and $4,000 for households to install solar battery storage systems.
The $10 million program will begin today with the government giving out about 2,000 means-tested rebates.
Was waiting for this after diligent reseach ruled out an EV as my new car, despite a similar large subsidy for them here in Queensland.
Happy? Worth it?
I have saved $9000+ in fuel over 3 years and spent $2000ish in electricity from the grid (no solar for me) No servicing costs. $1300 in tyres. and $90 in wiper blades. Best choice financially I have ever made.
@ashumz: Sounds great overall. Surely you should service brake fluid some time and some other small things?
@ashumz: geez, I haven't even hit that mark in over 3 years of owning my car, I can see why you're saving money on fuel
@ashumz: $220 really?I don't think that's actually as good as you think it is? My 2010 hybrid get's between 900-1000k's for about $85ish a tank. Calculating trip a if going from ann street bris to pitt street syd (900ish kms). Which I've done for aroun $150-180ish which is certainly cheaper. Also this hybrid cost me 4k in 2020 and since then I've spent around 1800 on tyres and repairs all up. EV's especially Tesla's are still way to early and TBH testing on the userbase is not for me. Meh each to their own but those numbers are not that great, I did Brisbane to Melboure for under 250 return for example :/
@wiipantz: How do you calculate it being cheaper - my Volvo XC40 has a 75kw battery which will do ~400km depending on usage. At 31c/kwH this equates to around $23 for each fill. At 1000km range thats about 2.5 recharges - so $57.
If you plan well there's free charging points in some states - we have a fair few here in WA. Many are powered by solar with battery storage too.
Agree that the EV's are still in an early stage, but some people get free charging at work, and cost per km is certainly cheaper than a petrol car despite them being more expensive.
Also factor in you are up for $1500-$3000 for a new Hybrid battery at some point too.
Its an interesting argument with fairly prominent points on both sides. I'm with EV but we still have a diesel 4WD wagon so not completely across the line just yet.
@dogzilla: 3 to 4k for the battery in my car. Also EV's don't need new batteries do they?
Also lol to the xc40
I caluclated cheaper like this.
I paid 150-180 for a return trip to sydney and he paid 220, thus 220 minus 180 equals 40 meaning it was $40 cheaper.
@ashumz: I drive a mere 30 minute city round trip a day so I won't see much fuel savings short term. So if I can't see the benefits straight away, I feel like I should wait till they mature a bit more, come down $30% in price, have more options in hatchbacks, possibly better battery tech. If the innovation takes leap, current EVs will be like $15k in less than 5 years and since I don't do high kilometers, the benefits of buying a $65k Model 3 looks to be not much.
@MKBHD: I'm on the same boat. I know EVs have been around for a while now, but I still feel like I'd be an early adopter if I bought now.
@MKBHD: That's your problem right there, fixated at Tesla and it's premium pricing.
There are affordable EV makers out there that cost 30% less than the M3 you mention with similar tech and quality.
@Speedz: "Comparable tech" is a pretty vague measure.
The Atto 3 is a nice vehicle in its own right, but not really a competitor to the Model 3 - it competes with the MG ZS EV and Hyundai Kona EV.
Compared with the Model 3, Atto 3 is an overall smaller vehicle with a tiny amount of luggage space, meaningfully shorter range than the base Model 3 even with the Extended range version, slower charging, more expensive maintenance schedule, worse warranty due to wierd exclusions on specific parts, and noticeably poorer performance and driving dynamics.
On the other hand it is quite cheap in comparison, and it does have Carplay and Android Auto, which is notably lacking in Tesla vehicles.
The BYD Seal is a much closer match to the Model 3 (and has a price that is much closer to match).
@klaw81: People still cross shop M3/MY against Atto 3 before Seal was released, these are facts. After Seal was released people still compare MY against the Atto 3 despite the clear 15k RRP difference.
I'm not going to debate the rest of your 'negative' points you copy and paste elsewhere, the tech is good enough for it's asking price and comparable to what Tesla has to offer.
30% price difference buys you a lot of other nice stuff.
But hey if you want to be a badge snob, by all means be a badge snob.
@Speedz: @Speedz I'm absolutely not a brand snob.
The BYD Seal is a lovely car, and I would be happy consider one in the future. It's right at the top of my list alongside the Ioniq 5 & 6 (which are also more expensive).
I did briefly consider the Atto 3 because of the low price, but found the range was too short for my needs and the design impractical for any decent amount of luggage. Others will undoubtedly have different criteria and find it acceptable.
@klaw81: Anyhow happy for you to fork out $70k+ for a EV, Atto's 480km range is just fine for urban use especially the asking price + government and dealer rebate bringing it down to somewhere in the low $40k driveaway.
As a owner for close to a year now with more than 15k km, I honestly have no range issue. Of course if you intend to take it on interstate drives then the range is drops to a low 300km depending on speed and weather but I have the full size ICE SUV for those sort of interstate road trips until PHEV or BEV 4x4 becomes available.
@Speedz: Atto3 is 280km on interstate. Remember you can only charge to 80% (unless you want to waste more than one hour charging) on the way.
@DryScissors: Reports and reviews of BYD’s autopilot equivalent being downright dangerous. I wouldn’t even compare it to a Tesla
@ashumz: Thanks so much, luckily I can already see for myself that a $9k return on a $160k investment is not great.
@brendanm: There’s no return. It’s not only a loss but a huge loss when you sell it after a few years. Cars are rarely a good investment. They are a liability.
@ashumz: I'm not trying to be nitpickety and if you're happy that's great, because cars are more than just four wheels to many car lovers and regardless of any feel good save the planet value, they do reduce local pollution emissions for everyone, so thanks for that. But isn't that's only $3,500 saving in petrol per car, so I'm curious to the better financial bottom line which you are aluding to above. Surely, even accepting that the super expensive to replace battery will last or adequately perform much past the warranty and ignoring insurance issues that are arising, this needs to include depreciation. So 3 years later, what did your two Tesla's cost back then? and what are they worth now?
I found this…"The price of the Model 3 in late 2020 sat at $73,900 before on-roads" and now according to Carsales.com.au…
"2020 Tesla Model 3 Pricing & Specifications Price Range: $33,850 - $51,900
Just as a comparison: "the new (2020) BMW M135i, which is priced at $63,990" Carsales.com.au says…
"Private price guide is**$46,650 - $50,900".
@xcharliex: Electric cars are going to depreciate more than petrol due to the fact that the batteries are expensive to change. So you might save on the short term, but on the long term its a greater loss on electric vs petrol. Maybe when lithium tech becomes cheaper it would be a viable option, but with the current shortage of lithium (demand >supply), i dont see that happening in the near future.
@ashumz: So based on that you are still behind because of the purchase price for EV on average is at least $15k or more expensive than an equivalent ICE car..
I own an EV as well
@ashumz: I can verify this, pretty much same deal for me although better for me since I have solar and with OVO so doesn't make any difference whether I charge during the day or after midnight.
MKBHD
"Why did you rule out an EV? Would love to get your insights while I make my decision as well."
I was looking at the amazingly low cost (not much more than the battery underneath woiuld cost to stick on my house) of the feature rich BYD Dolphine after $6,000 subsidy in QLD and was ready to buy one. Then I looked at EV pro and con reviews on Youtube.
Any petrol savings seem to be eroded due to other impending costs, tyres requirement and much greater wear and tear costs on them being one, but notably (given what I see happening in the UK) ever higher insurance costs or some car insurers stopping insuring them at all. This apparently due to even slight battery damage creating a huge problem (inclding a fire risk) necessitating a whole new battery or even a write off vs localized fixing in an EV. Also the claim that ongoing engine mainentence is cheaper in EVs is also highly contestable.
Although I already had aninverter put in, I would still need to spend $2,000 or so on a charger. Prefer to put that money into a home battery and was waiting for this promised subsidy. And on top of that, rather than an EV and all its issies, why not just suck up every bit of extra solar during the day to use every night I am thinking?
Inconvenience, less so at home, but definitely at whatever charging station I could find (if working and not busy) and then not so cheap cost apparently.
Terrible depreciation.
The one thing I did find is that, the one thing I was actually most worried about, the battery not lasting above say 50% at say 8-10 years. Still I have a 2014 i30 (nowadays our spare car in a family of 4 drivers) that still drives as if new, but I doubt any EV battery will last 20 years. From memory its had one significant engine repair of under $3,000. Of course a lemon petrol car, like the Mercedes my son was given by my late Mum, would change that comparison.
Dig deeper to find car reviews translated from China about Chinese Evs and it raises concerns. You can even find a site with stats on how many complaints purchasers make about cars in China. This info was courtesy YouTube's 'Electric Viking'. It is one mostly pro site, but does give the other side as well.
The fire issues.
An issue with not being able to open the doors if battery is dead (I actually wonder why they don't come with a spare).
Car Rental Companies who were big embracers of EVs, are abandoning using them enmasse aparently.
Anyway, I'm not an expert and I am sure others will counter many of the above points, perhaps soundly so (I almsot wish, as I, and my daughters who fell in love with it, would love a Dolphin), but I just suggest doing a lot of homework before buying.
Lots to unpack here, but I can share some of my own experiences after doing a lot of research and talking to a lot of owners before buying a used '22 Tesla Model 3 mid last year:
Any petrol savings seem to be eroded due to other impending costs, tyres requirement and much greater wear and tear costs….higher insurance…
This will depend on your typical driving patterns to some extent, but my own experience was that running costs for my previous 4 door sedan was about $4500 annually, including registration, insurance, servicing costs and fuel but excluding tyres. Currently I'm on track for a touch under $2000 for the EV.
Tyres are likely to be a bit more expensive to replace compared to the previous car simply because they're bigger, but the "accelerated wear on EVs" trope doesn't seem to hold up in my experience unless you drive like a lunatic.
Annual insurance costs are about the same as a similar value ICE car for me, but there was a LOT of variability in the quotes I received.
the claim that ongoing engine mainentence is cheaper in EVs is also highly contestable
I know some manufacturers have a service schedule, but there's really very little to service on a typical EV. There are no fluids or filters to change, the brakes see very little use due to regen braking and there are really only a few moving parts. So far, I've needed absolutely zero maintenance and there's none recommended by Tesla beyond changing the cabin air filter every couple of years.
Although I already had an inverter put in, I would still need to spend $2,000 or so on a charger
Most people will have absolutely no need to install an expensive charger. I charged my car using a standard 10A socket in my garage for the first month. I later had a 15A plug fitted (total cost ~$300) so I could charge a little faster. I generally only charge about once a week, adding ~300km of range overnight on a 7pm to 7am charge.
Inconvenience, less so at home, but definitely at whatever charging station I could find (if working and not busy) and then not so cheap cost apparently
In 6 months of ownership and about 8,000km of driving, I've needed to use public charging a total of 4 times. Twice at Christmas on an 800km round trip, and twice at times I've forgotten to plug the car in at home before going somewhere.IAll 4 times, I did not have to wait for a charging spot or deal with a broken charger, the charging was fast and convenient, and the cost was reasonable. Tesla's own chargers are super fast and tend to be more expensive, but some of the Qld government ones are very similar cost to home charging.
I am aware that queuing is more common along major highways at busy periods like school holidays, but I am yet to experience it myself. I suspect broken and out of service chargers are more of a US thing and far less common here - see further notes below.
I haven't been to a servo in many months except to buy a snack, and I don't miss it at all. I would argue that for everyday use, EVs are far more convenient.
Terrible depreciation
There's definitely some truth to this one, although it's more of a legacy issue than an ongoing one.
In the early days, there was little competition and limited supply, so pricing could remain high. Now competition between several manufacturers has forced pricing down, and the addition of government incentives has also made used EVs less attractive than brand new ones. I suspect the worst of the depreciation is over now, but the upside is that used but relatively new EVs are more affordable than ever.
The one thing I did find is that, the one thing I was actually most worried about, the battery not lasting above say 50% at say 8-10 years……I doubt any EV battery will last 20 years
This is one we have to wait and see on - there seems to be a lot of contradictory data out there.
Modern battery tech has come a long way since the bad old days of the Nissan Leaf. Active battery temperature control, pre-conditioning, more sophisticated charging techniques and more resilient battery chemistry should go a long way to allying these concerns. I'm pretty confident that the batteries in current models will last well beyond 250,000km based on the projections I've seen.
The fire issues
Fire issues are vastly exaggerated. Fires in EVs are incredibly rare - current statistics show that petrol/diesel cars are about 20 times more likely to be involved in a fire.
EVs are extremely unlikely to catch fire in the event of a collision, despite popular belief.
An issue with not being able to open the doors if battery is dead
This issue is not exclusive to EVs, but I believe all passenger cars sold in Australia are required to have a manual door release, at least on the front doors. Door lock issues only happen if the auxiliary 12v battery system fails, and has nothing to do with the main traction battery.
Car Rental Companies who were big embracers of EVs, are abandoning using them enmasse aparently
Car rental companies in the US specifically. They went in way too deep way too fast, their customers had EVs foisted upon them with no assistance or pre-drive training - horror stories from US customers are really common, particularly among non-Tesla rentals that needed to use the extremely Electrify America charging network.
(Public charging in the US is a total mess and will remain so for at least another year or two until they have a standardized charge plug across all vehicles, while Australia ad Europe are already almost entirely unified on the international CCS standard).
Also, rental operations were totally unprepared for on-site charging of multiple vehicles and had to make up policy and procedures on the fly. Staff training, delays in getting suitable repairs and the aforementioned depreciation issues also contributed. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
The Australian fleet of EV rentals has had some of the same challenges, but AFAIK are still in service and are performing reasonably well, according to a recent chat I had with an agent.
I just suggest doing a lot of homework before buying
Absolutely agree. Talk to EV owners, watch reviews on Youtube (actual reviews, not muppets with click-bait titles), get an EV rental for a weekend and take a little trip to test it for yourself.
I'd be the first to agree that EVs are not for everyone, and a mild mind-shift is required to drive one. They have quirks and a period of adjustment is required. But everyone who has driven my car has absolutely loved the experience and gets out with a smile on their face. I strongly recommend it to anyone who has an interest.
Thanks for sharing your first hand anecdotal evidence and experience.
Given your post I was just updating my pre-Christmas homework and came across this YouTube from the UK…
'EV insurance costs are shocking… here's why!' Maybe he's dogy. but her quotes a report that claims: "Issurance premiums for EVs are 72%…higher than this time last year"
For what it's worth 'The Electric Viking' I mentioned above just put out a YouTube talking about how EV sales in renewables global trendsetter Germany have "fallen by over 55%".
Europe is ahead of us in EVs so I think potential purchasers and the government should have our radar up.
Buying someone else's mistake/a second hand EV with a long warranty left over might work, but then you don't get the $6,000 subsidy. To me it's like buying shares, I am buying them thinking it's a good idea, while the person selling them who probably knows more than me thinks it's a good idea to get rid of them.
@xcharliex: EV insurance costs are shocking
I can't really comment on how much insurance costs for EVs are rising (only paid one year so far) but it's true that EVs typically cost a little more than their equivalent ICE counterparts.
There's a good article here that goes into a deeper comparison and the reasons why, but the upshot is that the newer technologies and younger dealer/importer networks don't yet have well-established supply lines for spare parts and panels, there are fewer qualified repair staff and facilities, and some specialist equipment may be required for certain types of issues.
Insurance prices are quickly rising more generally anyway - houses, cars, boats - pretty much everything seems to be considerably more expensive.
EV sales in renewables global trendsetter Germany have "fallen by over 55%".
Germany isn't much of a trend-setter in EVs (or renewables either, any more). They have a very large traditional ICE vehicle manufacturing industry that has significant momentum and won't be turned around so quickly. They have begun the EV transition but only VW offer a few passenger vehicles outside the premium luxury range. That will probably change in the next 12 months.
If you want to see what's happening at the forefront of EV adoption, look to the Scandanavian countries where EVs make up more than 80% of new vehicle sales.
Incidentally, EV sales have dropped off worldwide in the past 6 months or so, but so have passenger vehicle sales more generally. EV sales had been at all-time high growth levels that were not sustainable with limited capacity, so it's not surprising that they've come back to more reasonable levels - the numbers are still growing, but not as quickly as before.
Buying someone else's mistake/a second hand EV with a long warranty left over might work, but then you don't get the $6,000 subsidy
As I mentioned earlier, this is part of the reason why EV resale values have been lower than some might have liked. When state and federal subisides make new cars more appealing, why would you buy a used one? Consequently, those seeking to sell a used EV often have to settle for a lower price.
To me it's like buying shares, I am buying them thinking it's a good idea, while the person selling them who probably knows more than me thinks it's a good idea to get rid of them
I don't think there's any reason to be particularly suspicious of used EVs. It's really no different to any other near-new used car - the user's needs have changed, an upgraded model is available that has better features, the lease term has expired - there are any number of innocent and legitimate reasons. In my case, the previous owner wanted to tow a camper van off-road, and a low-clearance EV sedan simply wasn't going to cut it.
@klaw81: Imagine though that buying a tesla model 3, 7 years old, no warranty, 100k on the clock, never been serviced except for wiper fluid.
How much would you pay? 10% of original cost? ;)
@Naigrabzo: It's impossible to say, given the vagueness of the hypothetical question.
What's the condition of the paint and panels? How about the interior finishes? What's the condition of the battery (as reported by the BMS), what's the maximum projected range, and for that matter, which battery chemistry is fitted? But unless the car was utterly trashed and/or the battery clearly failing, 10% of the original price (around $6-7k) sounds utterly ridiculous. It should easily be worth $25k or more, but even then it's a total guess.
We may find in five years time that a particular model, or a particular battery chemistry, is actually a timebomb….or we may find that some models are actually impressively resilient and the risks about battery degradation were totally overblown. Car people know that British cars of yore usually had terrible electrical issues after a certain age, that Falcons of a certain era commonly blew head gaskets, that certain models of Kia have engines that are prone to sudden death, that early VW's fitted with DSGs tend to break rather easily and are expensive to fix. We should expect to see this happen in current models too, and there will be winners and losers.
Also, you need to consider that the value of a used car is often affected by the value of alternatives. How much is a similar model new now? Price competition (among other factors) currently make buying new EVs more attractive than used, which lowers resale values - this may continue into the future.
What's the price of petrol and diesel like at this period, and what's the price of electricity in comparison? That made a massive difference to EV sales numbers in the US a while back. For instance, if the price of oil jumps hard because of conflict escalation in the Middle East, we can expect to see used EVs look more appealing and the used value of ICE vehicles declining.
Will registration regimes change during this period? It seems pretty likely that state registration schemes will be adjusted to compensate for falling revenues on fuel levies in the next few years, but depending on the new policy, that may swing the balance one way or another.
The new and used car market will be in a period of significant upheaval over the next decade, with new regulations coming into force for both emissions and fuel standards, a changing landscape of government incentives for particular types of vehicles, competition pressure from Chinese products, and the quickly evolving nature of EV technology more generally. Not to mention the macro elements of general economic factors - inflation, wages growth, interest rates and global trade stability.
Making confident predictions in this kind of environment is silly, and anyone who claims to be able to make accurate forecasts is kidding themselves.
@klaw81: What you say is true but ignores the question:
Would you buy a car that has never been serviced in the last 7 years?
Also, the BMS will report 99% battery is remaining and Tesla can easily have software adjust the degredation or just adjust motor power to make it look like the battery is ok. :) AFAIK no company can defy physics with battery degredation yet.
Maybe in 7 years we can hope for wipers and headlights that actually work. :)
@Naigrabzo: The short answer is yes, I'd be happy to buy a car that hadn't been serviced in 7 years, IF it was a car that was designed to not need servicing.
Servicing isn't some kind of magic that keeps a car in good condition. It's a carefully planned preventative maintenance program for a complex piece of machinery that's prone to breaking without regular care.
Scheduled servicing is something that we've all needed to do because internal combustion engines and their associated drivetrains are incredibly complicated systems with inter-dependancies and involve a large number of moving parts, many of which require constant lubrication to prevent catastrophic wear. Plus there's an entire complex system to release all the heat that's generated by the engine. In addition, there are a number of items in an ICE that are effectively consumables and need replacement at regular intervals - clutches, chains, belts, filters, oils, pumps and impellors etc are all wearing parts.
In contrast, an EV driveline is extremely simple - a relatively simple electric motor (or two) direct-mated to a sealed single-speed gearbox, and some driveshafts. Outside that, the entire energy supply has 2 or 3 moving parts - a few relays or contactors. There is literally nothing to service in the entire drivetrain. So why would you worry about it not being serviced?
As for the headlights and wipers - they work exactly as I expect.
@klaw81: Thanks! That makes sense about the few moving parts etc. Do you reckon some maintenance is required for the valves, coolant etc or not?
@Naigrabzo: In general, things like valves don't require maintenance. If they work, you don't touch them. If they don't work, you replace them. It's usually pretty obvious if they don't work.
According to Tesla, the battery coolant is not a consumable - it is a closed loop system expected to last the lifetime of the vehicle, and is only replaced if contamination has occurred.
If you're interested, here's the section of the Model 3 owner's manual that talks about recommended regular maintenance (it's not very long):
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-E95DAAD…
Something else that's worth noting - a lot of the cost of major servicing on an ICE (replacing a timing chain at 100,000km for example) is the amount of time required to remove sufficient parts to get at the part that needs replacing - dust covers, drive belts, coolant hoses, air intake housings, wiring harnesses, sometimes the entire battery and battery enclosure - because there's just so much complex machinery in the engine bay and it's very "full" of components.
On an EV, things are quite a bit more simple - the motor(s) and gearbox(es) are self-contained units that don't require any maintenance, and the ancillaries (power steering, HVAC and braking systems) are mounted just in front of the firewall under a single cover and can be easily accessed with a few screws. If something does go wrong with the valves etc that requires replacement, a mechanic can have the offending part removed and replaced in 20 minutes.
@Naigrabzo: the amount of service a electric car needs is different to an ICE car
dont apply petrol car servicing standards against evs
@klaw81: im amazed at how patient u are with all these replies, despite half the things being thrown at you being sourced from click bait headlines and cherry picked data or issue not relevant to EVs or Australia
the anti EV hate train is real.
People forget that NOBODY is forcing evs on you. Its not an attack on your views if an EV is better or worse for your needs
People are allowed to and do buy EVs even if it doesnt make financial sense. given people do that since forever with ICE cars.
Cant put this arbitrary cost standard against EVs treating it as some utility device that is a workhorse, but give all other ICE vehicles a pass when someone buys one cause they just like the car for personal reasons. The comparison is disingenuous and pointles
Lastly it needs to be understood by everyone that EVs dont need to be 100% perfect and make sense to exist and buy (before, today or in the future). They will also improve over time. Cause nobody holds the same standard to existing tech which faced the same scrutiny when they tried to replace horse and carriages
@xcharliex: The insurance premium on my Model 3 jumped over $500 on my last renewal. But that would be if I was silly enough to just renew. The policy I'm on now is comparable to what I've just paid for a 2016 VW Polo GTI. I suppose you can pay shocking premiums, or you can do the ozbargain thing and shop around.
come on WA, do this and I'll buy them tomorrow!
Same… Im not holding my breath though.
Why would you need this in WA though with lots of sunshine, maybe Tasmania?
Night time power.
we have over supply issues during the day and over demand and under supply at night.
Considering getting an EV as well, we'd need it to charge the EV at night as well. Even if it is just minor top ups it'll help the thing last the week.
Okay, I get what you're saying thanks.
I am on the AGL EV plan, $5 to full charge over night. Amazing.
Places with sunshine make batteries potentially viable. Places with little sunshine don't get enough to charge batteries…….
I'd be tempted too. Or a decent rebate on an EV with bidirectional grid charging.
Worth noting there are quite a few eligibility requirements for this including having less than 180k combined household income for the previous financial year.
Typical.
Take up of this is gunna be pretty low I reckon
Have a few mates in the industry in QLD and they have had a lot of interest even when this rebate was hinted at.
Only people I see taking it up is cashed up retires.
Low "income", but high "wealth" sitting in the bank.
More subsidies for the baby boomers who don't need it.
Oh I see you're in the middle class.
Income eligibility is via a notice of assessment from the ATO.
Whilst it didn't say so explicitly, I'm guessing that means taxable income?
Really need this to happen in NSW. I've been wanting to get batteries for my house ever since I got Solar but the lump sum amount has just really turned me off it. I can't afford 10-20K in one hit for batteries.
I thought everyone on OZbargain wouldn't qualify being means tested
Whats the break even now then?
I did some very basic (and probably wrong) napkin math. But I made some assumptions about it - firstly I have no idea how much electricity costs you, but I've put in 30c/kWh as a general price. I also don't know much about the different battery options, but decided to look at a Tesla powerwall just because I thought it would be easier to find info. The places I found online suggested a total price (including installation) of about $14-$16k; I went with the higher amount and said it's $16k for it. I also assumed you'd be able to fill the battery to max and use all the power each day - so in this case, filling up to full during the day and using all the power at night. I'm pretty sure that's the fastest way to calculate the break even point, but if I'm wrong I can change some numbers. Of course though, some days might be cloudy and overcast and so these numbers are best case scenario
Using this, it seems like for these numbers, the rebate will make a Tesla Powerwall break even 2 years sooner. Of course, these assumptions and/or the math could be wrong, and I'm happy to redo the numbers if so.
Also, if people want a generalised formula for it to work out their specific best cases I can provide one, or if people want a google doc that has this info ready to go I can make one too.
Hopefully this helped!
Your figures fail to take into account the price paid by retailers for electricity exported. 5-7c k/w on average, this is the opportunity cost lost by charging your battery vs selling back to the grid. You need to dedutct that figure from your daily ROI.
Even without that the payback figure is 9 years which is not a sound investment.
Ah that's a very good point, I didn't think of that - thanks. So, the sell rate would essentially be the cost of electricity less the FIT rate, right? That would mean the calculations would be done at a rate of $0.25 if your electricity rate is $0.30 and the fit is $0.05 right?
The figures also fail to take into account the lost investment opportunity on the $13000 purchase price e.g. an investment of $13,000 making 5% compounded annually would be worth approximately $21,166.64 after 10 years. A 10 year old battery would be worth very little.
Edit: I didn't initially see gromit's reply below saying the same sort of thing.
Charging the battery to full and discharging it completely on a daily basis is not good for the battery. You will have to tweak the numbers to 80% of the battery capacity, which will increase the RoI period slightly
Good point - I don't have a battery yet so haven't done any research into that yet. Is there the ability to limit the power drained and charged each day?
At 16k u wont break even in its warrantied lifetime. As well as the FIT opp cost and not using 100% every day you need to add opportunity cost of not having that money earning interest in a bank or dividends as shares. So add at least another $650 a year to your costs.
They just need to pull their finger out on V2G for ecars, help with updating the electrical install at homes/apartments and consign standalone batteries to offgrid.
Then the car battery will degrade even faster, being used up every night.
Come on TAS, would love to add some batteries to my panels, but just not worth the cost yet.
You can get an interest free loan to do a battery install though, assuming you qualify ? So no upfront, and/or invest the capital and help defray costs by using the invested money to pay the loan down, along with inflation helping you out
Category A is for battery installation
https://brighte.com.au/tas-energy-saver-loan-scheme/househol…
Yeah, we used that to install the panels (or the heat pump, done at the same time). Battery quote on top was just too much.
The rebate is available to eligible Queensland homeowners with a combined household income of less than $180,000
Dammit.
Rich ass
I'd be surprised if anyone under that combined is gunna have solar and battery high up on their list of things to buy.
I know right. I shall not qualify and neither my wife.
What a farce! Literally been sitting waiting for this program for months after I got a heads up from an installer. Then they put this caveat on it and it's dead in the water.
Shame they aren't on the list. :(
Now need a deal on the storage and to see the real cost
If your calculated ROI is beyond battery warranty ie 10 years, then it's probably not worth it. It's like paying for 10 years of electricity in advance.
Did you calculate that at the rate electricity has been going up? I dont think you did.
I didn't calculate as this deal is not applicable for me. It's good to add that factor into your spreadsheet if you think it's relevant.
Do you understand that battery (and solar panel) warranty is not "until death"…. it's generally until 20% degraded….thus "only" 80% efficient.
I'd take anyones' batteries or panels that are "only" working at 80% efficiency, and happily suck the life out of them for another 50 years.
What's your address?
Yes I understand battery warranty. This is why it's important to calculate the ROI for these. Just like any other investment.
then you understand that if the ROI breakeven period is longer than the warranty period, it may still be worth it.
![[QLD] Solar Battery Rebate Scheme - $4000 Rebate if Highest Income <$66,667, $3000 Rebate if Combined Income <$180,000 @ QLD Gov](https://files.ozbargain.com.au/n/34/831034.jpg?h=0d5bad93)
https://www.ama.com.au/