How Does One Enquire about an Abandoned Property That's Not Listed Anywhere?

minty on 11/04/2024 - 12:32
Last edited 11/04/2024 - 16:23 by 1 other user

Not sure if this is the right place to ask.

There's this abandoned residential property (house) that's been empty/derelict for as long as I've known it (20 years) so perhaps for much longer. A mate and I have been chewing over going halves in land+building for a while and this property has always been on the back of my mind.

It's in an expensive area so it could be entirely a pipe dream alas I'm keen to at least sus out the asking price. Checked high and low and can't find the property listed anywhere, nor any historical records of transfer for that matter.

The house seems to belong to an elderly couple judging by a metric tonne of old photos (1990s), so they could have passed away by now for all I know.

What route can I go down to get an asking price, or what's the process for something like this?

Home & Garden

Comments

    • minty on 11/04/2024 - 12:46

      NSW. Always thought (perhaps incorrectly) squatters rights was just an American thing.

      How does one pay rates for something that they don't own? I can't just go to coucil and say hey bill me for this property from today forward(?)

      • arkie0 on 11/04/2024 - 12:51
        +1

        You can't just call up and change owners, councils need a notice of transfer from a solictor/conveyancer which obviously is only created when you actually transfer ownership.

        • minty on 11/04/2024 - 13:03

          And that's how I'm coming full circle, not sure how to even go about it since it's not appearing on any records from my months of investigation.

          • happydude on 11/04/2024 - 17:15
            +9

            @minty: It happens

            https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-30/sydney-squatting-laws…

            A Sydney property developer is set to gain more than $1 million for selling a home he found empty and rented out for two decades.

            The family of the home's registered owners challenged Mr Gertos in the NSW Supreme Court when he applied to be named the owner of the land under the Real Property Act in 2017

            But Justice Rowan Darke found Mr Gertos had sufficient evidence to show he invested money into fixing the home, paid taxes on it and leased it to rental tenants.

            "In essence, Mr Gertos succeeded in taking and maintaining physical custody of the land, to the exclusion of all others, and he has assumed the position of a landlord," Justice Darke said.

            This is the full decision - https://austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/nsw/NSWSC/20…

            • Horacio on 14/04/2024 - 12:58
              +1

              @happydude: Indeed. Don't know why mskeggs below has been downvoted - afaik their comment is spot on.

        • mskeggs on 11/04/2024 - 13:03
          -6

          You can just call up and try and get the rates amended. The council will have processes to make it tricky, but if you want to claim squatter's rights you need to occupy the premises and show evidence you did so.
          Paying rates for 20 years is great evidence, but there are other possibilities.

          Bear in mind it is still trespassing if you are squatting.

      • dust on 11/04/2024 - 12:52

        I'm unsure of why I'm getting downvoted but to answer your question, paying council rates might be harder but if you're connecting a new property to gas or electricity, they don't check whether you own it or not.

      • trongy on 13/04/2024 - 09:20
        +4

        If you search for the legal term that is used in Australia - adverse possession - you will find informative results.

        It looks like in NSW, you would need to occupy the property continuously for 12 years, uncontested by the owner and have enough evidence of doing so to satisfy the court to win the case.

    • Franc-T on 12/04/2024 - 16:06
      +8

      You mean stealing it

      • brad1-8tsi on 13/04/2024 - 09:28
        +1

        Adverse possession

        • Franc-T on 13/04/2024 - 13:49
          +7

          same thing

          • smartazz104 on 13/04/2024 - 16:17

            @Franc-T: Well in that case I’m sure the owner would quickly do something about it.

            • Franc-T on 13/04/2024 - 17:50

              @smartazz104: Owner could be someone in long term care with impairment for example.

  • djkelly69 on 11/04/2024 - 12:45
    +16

    IMO first step would be to perform a title search on the property, and then start searching for the owners.

    • minty on 11/04/2024 - 12:48

      I did, absolutely nothing comes up, no idea when the property was first traded. I reached out to the real estate agent I used for my own property and they came back with nothing either.

      • djkelly69 on 11/04/2024 - 12:51
        +4

        Did you do an actual title search, as in through NSW Land Registry Services? You will need to work out the Lot and DP for the property, which is pretty easy using an address search through NSWLRS.

        • minty on 11/04/2024 - 12:55

          Yeah, the real estate agent walked me through the process and turned up with nothing. I was under the impression that such a record would be in place since the (realistic) dawn of time.

          • mskeggs on 11/04/2024 - 12:59

            @minty: That is the case. You can trace all the way back to the block sub-division.
            Go online to the local council to see the zoning and you'll be able to get the correct DP.

          • yellowfever on 11/04/2024 - 13:09
            +7

            @minty: did you pay for the land title search? rather than just ask for agent? there is a fee involved. Every land has a title. Especially in a well established area

            • minty on 11/04/2024 - 13:14

              @yellowfever: Yup I paid, did a bunch of search by myself turning up nothing before pulling the trigger and going to a real estate agent. Which also turned up nothing.

              If I hadn't known this place for so long I wouldn't have bothered wasting the money. The property was clearly bought back when land was cents to the dollar, the backyard is mindblowing large, no way any modern property in the area these days would occupy such an area.

              • apsilon on 11/04/2024 - 21:09
                +8

                @minty: Did you pay the real estate agent or NSW land registry? If you paid the REA they likely just pocketed it and did nothing and/or are incompetent and spun you a tale about nothing coming up in the search. Speak to a conveyencer, they're the ones that handle this sort of thing. There absolutely will be a title for it.

          • djkelly69 on 11/04/2024 - 13:09
            +5

            @minty: Unless it is council or crown land or something very weird, it will have a title/owner you can search. If it didn't turn up any results it was most likely either not the right details or not done properly.

            • minty on 11/04/2024 - 13:17

              @djkelly69: (My knowledge is limited) it's right smack bang in between a residential area with houses in every direction, it certainly just look like any other house on the street. Judging by the crap left in the house/backyard it seems like a regular private owned property.

              • djkelly69 on 11/04/2024 - 13:55

                @minty: Definitely sounds like a normal residential house, which is why I suggested the title search.

                If you want to PM me the address I will try and see what I can work out.

                • GordonD on 11/04/2024 - 14:43
                  +37

                  @djkelly69: If you want to PM me the address, I'll see if I can get in ahead of you and claim it.

                  • Antikythera on 13/04/2024 - 19:51
                    +2

                    @GordonD: the real estate agent the OP used has already beaten you to it.

                • minty on 11/04/2024 - 15:47
                  +1

                  @djkelly69: Thanks for the offer but I'd like to keep it to myself for now, no offence intended towards you whatsoever.

                  It's like that woman that got away, I've been thinking about it too much :P

                  • djkelly69 on 11/04/2024 - 16:13

                    @minty: Haha none taken, definitely not what my intention was!

                  • brad1-8tsi on 13/04/2024 - 15:06
                    +1

                    @minty: where are the rate notices going? Council probably won't give you a contact but they should be able to say if it's paid or delinquent.

  • Fredfloresjr on 11/04/2024 - 12:50
    -3

    Surely, Mr. and Mrs. Yeng already paid $4M via Skype with the agent.

  • AustriaBargain on 11/04/2024 - 12:54
    +3

    Where did you find these old photos, did you break into the house and go through old photo albums?

    • mskeggs on 11/04/2024 - 12:57

      Just a bit of poking around. If someone thinks your house is empty it is fine, apparently.

    • minty on 11/04/2024 - 13:00
      +2

      Found the place when I was a wee lil kid and used to hang out there with mates growing up, when I say derelict it's in absolute shambles, no door/window/water+rust damage to high heavens. Looks like a previous hoarder place that's just left in a hurry.

      • AustriaBargain on 11/04/2024 - 13:07
        +7

        Maybe someone very wealthy owns the land and they just haven't done anything with it because it's a minor part of their portfolio. Or it's part of a trust and the trust is mismanaged if a new house could have been put on there and rented out these last 20 years.

        • trongy on 13/04/2024 - 09:28

          There was a derelict house near where I lived as a child. My parents fold me that the siblings who inherited it were feuding and would never agree on what to do with it.

          • AustriaBargain on 13/04/2024 - 10:27
            +1

            @trongy: Meanwhile it keeps going up in value, so even though they miss out on living in it or renting it out, it's still appreciating just by doing nothing at all.

  • Sammy2000 on 11/04/2024 - 12:56

    This could be a good plan. The inherited owners may not be able to afford to do anything with it.
    It might also be listed as a heritage site or they are in an argument with the council as they cannot build what they want on the land.

    • Franc-T on 12/04/2024 - 16:07
      +2

      Could be someone in care

      • Horacio on 14/04/2024 - 12:59
        +1

        From the sounds of it this is quite likely

  • blldzd on 11/04/2024 - 13:02
    -4

    Trying to think of anything else in the world you can leave untouched for 20 years and still technically own. I say it's up for grabs. They clearly don't need it.

    • mskeggs on 11/04/2024 - 13:04
      +10

      That's not at all how property works in a common law country.

      • blldzd on 11/04/2024 - 13:07

        I'm aware of that mate. When you have unoccupied homes for 20 years and homeless encampments in the local park, maybe some laws are bad?

        • mskeggs on 11/04/2024 - 13:08
          +12

          I agree with you, but leaving a house, or a car, or a ham sandwich untouched for 20 years doesn't let someone else declare it is theirs.

          • blldzd on 11/04/2024 - 13:13

            @mskeggs: If the supply of ham sandwiches were as scarce as houses, 99 times out of 100 someone would (and should) eat it if you put it down and walked away from it

            • Sammy2000 on 11/04/2024 - 13:46
              +3

              @blldzd: It may be a piece of art not to be eaten but admired as it forms or doesn't form mould.
              They might be a horder who still owns the sandwich but collects them in case the price increases over time or need it on a rainy day.

    • AustriaBargain on 13/04/2024 - 10:28

      Your ass? You can spend 20 years without touching it if you use a bidet.

      • KLF23 on 13/04/2024 - 16:14
        +1

        No soap on your ass for 20 years? I'm pretty sure that was the guy in front of me in the post office queue the other day. I had to take a couple of steps back.

        • smartazz104 on 13/04/2024 - 16:19
          +1

          Where are you all seeing these donkeys…

    • heyimcasey on 15/04/2024 - 20:54
      +2

      wow there's so many landlords on ozbargain it seems

  • mini2 on 11/04/2024 - 13:05
    +7

    Call the council, pretend to be a neighbour and want to contact them to sort out the fence.

    Not 100% success rate, but with some dumb luck, you might get lucky.

    Alternatively, find a real estate agent whom you're chummy with and ask them to use their app - they can look this shit up, or how else they letter bomb correctly?

  • skinner on 11/04/2024 - 13:06
    +7

    Could try sending that address mail, the owners might have it forwarded elsewhere.

    • minty on 11/04/2024 - 13:24
      +7

      That's one of the first thing I did actually, sent a friendly mail enquiring about it a year ago and a follow-up since and alas nothing. The postie just left it on the doorstep and has been there ever since.

  • ForkSnorter on 11/04/2024 - 13:30
    +9

    Squat in it for 12 years, then you own it.

  • Drakesy on 11/04/2024 - 15:18
    +3

    Just squat, thats the only way.

  • cuteseal on 11/04/2024 - 17:13
    +6

    Could it be council land or a reserve or something?

    Also I assume you've tried all these avenues?

    https://www.nswlrs.com.au/Access-Titling-Information

    Online
    NSW LRS provides easy online access to New South Wales land title records including:
    - NSW LRS Online portal for free index searches
    - Authorised information brokers for professional assistance, title record searches and other products
    - Historical Land Records Viewer (HLRV) for charting maps including county, parish and town maps.

    In-person
    There are a number of over-the-counter services and public terminals available to assist your search of NSW land title information.

    Over-the-counter services
    For a fee, over-the-counter services at NSW LRS provide access to:
    - Title searches
    - Images of dealings
    - Plans
    - Documents

    Public terminals
    Public terminals at NSW LRS provide access to:
    - Free searches including street address inquiry, prior title and new lots created
    - The Historical Land Records Viewer (HLRV)
    - Old Form Torrens title folio images

  • GordonR on 11/04/2024 - 18:06

    Is there a local Facebook group for the suburb? Ask if anyone knows anything about the house or who lived there.

  • ihbh on 11/04/2024 - 18:09
    +6

    Knock on the neighbours - maybe they know sth. A lady in my street bought in the 60s.

  • mitt on 11/04/2024 - 18:26
    +11

    It could be an unregistered subdivision. The land could be part of one of the adjoining blocks & it was subdivided physically but not on paper a long time ago & nobody has realised that its part of their adjoining property.

    Kids move into grammas house next door after she dies, they dont realise the shady person next door is supposed to be paying them cash rent for the unofficial house, neighbour dies, kids never realise they own a second house.

  • garetz on 11/04/2024 - 18:27
    +2

    If the owners passed with no will and no mortgage it will revert back to government ownership of the land, if a living relative was not found.

  • Ocker on 11/04/2024 - 18:48

    Just move in, and after 12 years claim ownership via adverse possession.

    • alexdagr8 on 14/04/2024 - 11:50

      Who says you need to wait 12 years, just tell them you did 12 years ago - do it the property developer way!

  • elgrande on 11/04/2024 - 19:04
    +24

    OP wants a free house, plus free legal advice.

    Move in, you will soon meet the owner.

    • sauce2k on 12/04/2024 - 11:58

      hahahah this comment is underrated

    • SteveD on 12/04/2024 - 19:33
      -4

      It might seem for OP that he is getting the house for free or discounted price, but in reality there is no such things as free lunch. Karma always finds its way. What goes around comes around.

      • belongsinforums on 12/04/2024 - 20:45
        +4

        If you're providing evidence that karma is real, I want to be notified and part of this momentous occasion

        • johnno07 on 12/04/2024 - 23:31
          -1

          !RemindMe Someone proves superstitious hokum to be true

      • redfox1200 on 13/04/2024 - 07:35

        So he moves in and fixes the place and has a home, isd this good or bad karma. Asking for a friend.

        • SteveD on 14/04/2024 - 14:27

          Tell your friend, our behaviors and attitudes are influenced by our past experiences and the consequences of our actions. Positive actions tend to lead to positive outcomes, while negative actions can result in negative consequences.In terms of neuroscience, our thoughts and actions shape the physical structure of our brains. When we engage in positive behaviors and thoughts, it can lead to the strengthening of neural connections associated with those behaviors, making it more likely that we will continue to act in a similar way in the future. Overall, the scientific explanation is rooted in the idea that our actions and intentions have a real impact on our lives and the world around us, influencing our thoughts, behaviors, and experiences over time.

      • smartazz104 on 13/04/2024 - 16:20

        Karma

        Now this is comedy.

  • Euphemistic on 11/04/2024 - 19:36
    -4

    Its about time goverment started to force use of these houses. You need to use it at least xxx weeks per year or itll be sold or leased for you. Not surewhat mechanism would do it, but might help with the housing problems.

    • afoveht on 11/04/2024 - 23:33
      -3

      Absolutely. Private property should be limited by use or occupation. This idea that some decree backed up by (currently publicly paid) force makes it yours unconditionally is much of what's wrong with the world.

      First couple minutes of this is apt:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03GYzR0LyQM

      • May4th on 12/04/2024 - 14:17
        +1

        aand we've done a full circle back to communism

        • whyisave on 13/04/2024 - 09:27
          +1

          Late stage capitalism

        • smartazz104 on 13/04/2024 - 16:21
          +1

          And yet the government is happy to hand our money to big business.

      • Antikythera on 13/04/2024 - 19:55
        -2

        only land owners should be able to vote.
        1 vote per ten acres owned.

  • Tee Rex Arms on 11/04/2024 - 20:01
    +8

    You and a mate going halves in anything property related will end badly.

    • ChipsChicky on 13/04/2024 - 02:07

      Your comment is specific to this property or any property? and why ?

  • Gersman on 12/04/2024 - 08:38
    +1

    Get a fencing contractor to contact the council asking for details of the owners to send a quote for a replacement fence to go up, someone should be paying the rates and councils usually give details of the owners to a legit contractor for half fence billing etc.

  • b0rnwithabeard on 12/04/2024 - 10:32
    +5

    ask purplepingers for some advice

    • eddyah on 12/04/2024 - 18:36
      +1

      Bunch of non-twitter / up to date people on here

      purplepingers should be told about this ASAP!

      • ChipsChicky on 13/04/2024 - 02:17

        who is he and what does he do?

      • Horacio on 14/04/2024 - 13:00

        Yeah! Share the squat info!

  • May4th on 12/04/2024 - 14:19
    +1

    you should be asking a conveyancer or solicitor to do the relevant title searches, not the real estate agent who most likely just pocketed your money without doing anything. I'd be very surprised if there isn't a title

  • 2esc on 12/04/2024 - 15:41
    +1

    Its most likely not abandoned just someone with to much money doesn't want the hassle of renters. I know of approx 20 vacant houses on farmland in my shire where the farm has been bought by the neighbouring farm and the houses just sit there slowly falling apart.

    Some because they have had bad renters in the past and others they are just not interested.

  • coolbzk1 on 12/04/2024 - 16:26

    that is why we need kids to inherit properties….

  • apey2000 on 12/04/2024 - 17:53

    Plot twist.. the bikies own it.

  • Leanne59 on 12/04/2024 - 19:02
    +9

    If this property has not been dealt with in decades it could still be under the Old System. I personally have only ever dealt with or seen the Old System documents once when I was working in the mortgage department of a Bank and it was handed over to a solicitor to do the relevant searches.

    Old System land is the most complex of the
    three land titling systems in NSW and has
    many contradictions and curiosities. As such,
    this guide can only be regarded as a search
    companion and further consultation with Old
    System experts may be necessary if you are undertaking a complex search.

    https://www.nswlrs.com.au/getattachment/515c97fd-d3f0-4020-a…

  • Thaal Sinestro on 12/04/2024 - 19:39
    -5

    There is no temporal pressure to sell vacant land. It is the component of housing that is appreciating the most in value. I think it was Mark Twain who told people to invest in land because they ain't making any more of it. You mention it's in an affluent area, so it is probably worth 1.5 million.

    I wish I was Aboriginal. Aboriginals get huge swathes of land for free; Asians and Caucasians have to pay 1 million for a tiny parcel of land. Not fair. Ticking a box on a government form is usually not enough to get "free stuff".

  • weee on 12/04/2024 - 21:30

    lol sort out your mate first, any share of the ownership with a 'mate' is begging for life time problems

  • WilliamDGH on 12/04/2024 - 21:34

    What's the address? Maybe someone here can help You find some clue. Surely noe one would care If it's abandoned.

  • serpserpserp on 12/04/2024 - 22:02

    Just go and live in it

  • ribze1 on 12/04/2024 - 22:21

    Vacant land and houses in major cities should be taxed.

    • redfox1200 on 13/04/2024 - 07:38
      +1

      They are taxed just like every other house

  • FoxJump on 13/04/2024 - 08:09
    +1

    search it on https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/

  • DiscoJango on 13/04/2024 - 08:45

    Maybe just put a post up on a local facebook group, someone in the area will know someone who knows someone.

  • KeshOB on 13/04/2024 - 09:46
    -1

    "Stealing from the traditional owners."

    One of the fundamental values of being an Aussie.

  • Name on 13/04/2024 - 12:50
    +1

    If you're serious about it and want a possibly cheap approach (under say 5k) with limited liability. Mow and tidy up yard, get solar panels installed and electricity connected. Electricity account could be used as you living in the property and wait 12 years and if no one comes knocking, take it through the courts to try and claim it. In the mean time you might be able to earn a few hundred a year on electricity generation. Keeping the yard tidy will stop anyone else coming knocking.

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