Double Roundabout Accident Question

truongster on 18/05/2025 - 22:40
Last edited 19/05/2025 - 22:57

Hi fellas here's another question for you all.

(Driver A - Tesla - Right lane - Orange MS Paint Line)
(Driver B - Mustang - Left lane - Blue MS Paint Line)

Driver A enters roundabout (two lanes) from right most lane with intention to turn right.
Driver B enters roundabout from left lane also indicates to turn right.

Lane markings show

  • Right lane must only turn right
  • Left lane can go straight or right.

Driver B makes a uturn throughout the roundabout.
Driver A turns right and in doing so goes through outer most lane in the roundabout.
Driver A's front left impacts Driver's B's side.

So who is at fault?

Edit: Comprehensive insurance claim sent.

Poll Options

  • 83
    Driver A (Right lane Tesla driver)
  • 393
    Driver B (Left lane Mustang driver)
Automotive

Comments

  • askbargain on 18/05/2025 - 22:45
    +8

    If Blue is right, then the right lane is only for u turning or slingshotting?

    • theHMASfriendship on 19/05/2025 - 08:41
      +30

      Yes, can only use right lane for sling shotting manoeuvres to save fuel on your way to Saturn

    • 2027 on 20/05/2025 - 09:24

      slingshotting

      Even then, only if it’s in a Bird of Prey to grab some whales and save the world

    • core101 on 21/05/2025 - 19:16
      +1

      Not if Blue keeps going around, trapping the inner lane from exiting.

    • supersabroso on 22/05/2025 - 00:28
      +3

      Driver B (Blue) is now correct thanks to the updated right turn arrow & the road rules published on the nsw government website.

      Turning right or making a full turn (U-turn)
      On approach you must indicate right, and turn using the right lane, unless arrows show you can use other lanes to turn right.

      Driver A (Orange) changed lanes without giving way to others which means that Driver B is in the right unless Driver A can argue that Driver B had sufficient time to hit the brakes (upon with both are equally responsible) as all drivers have a mandatory responsibility to brake and avoid an accident if possible, no matter who is in the wrong.

      Changing lanes
      If you need to change lanes, you must indicate and give way to any vehicle in the lane you’re moving into.

      • TightLikeThisx on 22/05/2025 - 18:19

        I concur.

        If Driver B had any common sense they would have changed lanes in the roundabout when they had the chance.

        If Driver A had any common sense they would have taken it extra slow around the roundabout to make sure that driver B either changed lanes or intends to exit right. As it stood Driver B could have legally turned right or done a U-turn. There was no way to tell what they were going to do.

    • RTX9090Ti on 23/05/2025 - 13:11
      -2

      Its Tesla's fault, should give way to Mustang as its a Mustang!

  • lgacb08 on 18/05/2025 - 22:50
    +25

    Seriously, you should know road rule better, this is not even a question. You should spend that time instead to figure out extracting the clip rather than using your phone to record it.

    • truongster on 19/05/2025 - 08:53

      Unfortunate, driver of the Tesla drove the car for more than an hour and the footage looped.

      • Maki on 20/05/2025 - 16:08

        Get a larger USB drive, and look for a program called TeslaCam Viewer II — that's what I used to recreate the video.

      • JakeyJooJoo on 21/05/2025 - 22:47
        +2

        wth, it only holds 1 hour of footage?
        That's so dumb. Teslas really have some junk features.

      • tomlikesbeetroot on 22/05/2025 - 22:14

        Any time you hit the horn the previous 10 minutes is saved and won't be looped.
        Also just been through similar today, when I pulled the usb from the glove box and plugged it into laptop I was able to access more footage that way than via the touchscreen.

  • CodeXD on 18/05/2025 - 22:50
    +1

    Is driver B trying to argue that they had right of way? Leave it for insurance, the dashcam is clear they are the at fault driver.

    • truongster on 18/05/2025 - 23:00
      +1

      Yes, Driver B claims they had stayed within their lane and was ahead of Driver A.

      • SpendLess on 20/05/2025 - 12:02
        +7

        its 2 lanes isnt it? even if the driver was ahead of the other driver you cannot just merge into the lane
        being ahead doesnt mean "good luck everybody" and turn into the other lane

        • jolygood on 20/05/2025 - 19:47
          +1

          Good luck everybody else
          What a interesting roundabout. I'm genuinely looking forward to the decision from the insurance company. OP, keep us posted please.

  • Jaduqimon on 18/05/2025 - 23:02
    +5

    that famous roundabout…

    the left lane marking doesnt show he can turn right. only straight or left….

      • Jaduqimon on 18/05/2025 - 23:08
        +8

        oh wow they changed it recently then… cuz i use to live there a couple years ago

        https://www.google.com/maps/@-33.8541255,151.0766323,3a,75y,…

        • lint on 21/05/2025 - 11:31
          +2

          Apple Maps imagery from November 2024 also shows the left lane being straight only, so it must've been changed very recently. Honestly, this change doesn't seem well thought out and seems to make this roundabout worse.

          Either way, I think the straight or right arrow on the left lane means Driver B be must go straight or turn right in such a roundabout. On the other hand, it is also very important to use your left turn indicator to signal your intention to exit this roundabout.

          • supersabroso on 22/05/2025 - 00:34
            +5

            @lint: Yep, badly thought out as it encourages people in the left lane to turn right which is stupid. The real at fault people should be the idiots at RMS that added the right turn arrow on the left lane creating these new accidents.

    • hmac on 19/05/2025 - 11:17
      +3

      Gotta love homebush DFO roundabout. Especially people who go straight from a right only lane

    • AndyC1 on 19/05/2025 - 19:33
      +1

      You are assuming people using this round about have 20/20 visibility compare to the real 0/0 visibility at this round about.

  • pegaxs on 18/05/2025 - 23:15
    +26

    Mustang driver at fault. You can’t just get in the outside lane and do laps around the round about. They needed to get off at the same exit as you.

    Who cares what the moron says, send the dash cam footage to your insurer and let them fight it out.

    NSW Road Rule 111 says;

    (3) If the driver is to leave the roundabout more than halfway around it, the driver must enter the roundabout from the right marked lane

    • star-ggg on 18/05/2025 - 23:35
      -7

      You gotta keep reading:

      (5) Despite subrules (2) to (4), if the driver is entering the roundabout from a marked lane and there are traffic lane arrows applying to the lane, the driver must—
      (a) if the arrows indicate a single direction—drive in that direction after entering the roundabout, or
      (b) if the arrows indicate 2 or more directions—drive in one of those directions after entering the roundabout

    • GordonD on 19/05/2025 - 12:54
      -7

      Yes that is the rule. But all you've proved is that driver B broke the road rules by entering the roundabout in the wrong lane, and driver A broke the road rules by exiting the roundabout contrary to the road rules and causing a collision. The one at fault in the collision is A, and his insurance will be paying. Driver B breaking a rule a couple of intersections back doesn't make him at fault for the collision. It just means he could be booked too.

      • CodeXD on 19/05/2025 - 14:28

        driver A broke the road rules by exiting the roundabout contrary to the road rules and causing a collision

        Curious to know where you think driver A should have exited the roundabout to not break the road rules?

        Road marking

        Roundabout map (Driver A is orange on right lane, Driver B is blue on left lane)

        • GordonD on 20/05/2025 - 09:02
          -3

          Road marking(imgur.com)

          That is the road marking at the intersection where the two drivers entered the roundabout. The OP is trying to offload fault to the other driver by treating those road markings as the important ones. They aren't. The important ones to who was at fault in the collision are at the intersection where A tried to exit the roundabout by unsafely crossing a lane line and colliding with the vehicle that was in the other lane.

          Curious to know where you think driver A should have exited the roundabout to not break the road rules?

          You can only change lanes if you can and do do it safely, otherwise you are at fault in any collision that occurs. If driver A could only change lanes and exit safely at that exit intersection they could and should have done another complete lap around the roundabout, this time making sure they were in the exit lane - the left one - at that point. It would have only wasted 30 seconds of their time to do it safely. Now they are wasted way more than that because of the collision they caused.

          Driver A can argue until they are blue in the face that car B shouldn't have been there. But it was. And because it was A couldn't safely change lanes to exit there then, so they shouldn't have. Because they did, they were at fault in the collision that occurred.

          • Chandler on 21/05/2025 - 16:17
            -8

            @GordonD: I think the problem here is the gap between expectation and reality. The expectation is that if you are going completely around the roundabout (u-turn, slingshot, etc) that you are in the right-most lane. This makes sense, but from my brief read doesn't appear to be explicitly stated in the road rules.

            I suspect you might actually be right (correct) here, even though I think that being the case is wrong (bad).

            Edit: scratch that. Mustang broke Rule 42. Case closed.

            42 Starting a U-turn at an intersection

            A driver making a U-turn at an intersection must start the U-turn:

            (a) if the road where the driver is turning has a dividing line or median strip—from the marked lane nearest, or as near as practicable, to the dividing line or median strip, or
            (b) in any other case—from the left of the centre of the road.

            Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
            Note. Centre of the road, dividing line, intersection, marked lane and median strip are defined in the Dictionary.

            https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/sl-…

            • trapper on 21/05/2025 - 17:24
              +7

              @Chandler: The term U-turn is defined in the Road Rules Dictionary on page 330, and explicitly excludes turns made at a roundabout.

              U-turn means a turn made by a driver so that the driver’s vehicle faces in approximately the opposite direction from which it was facing immediately before the turn was made, but does not include a turn made at a roundabout.

              • star-ggg on 21/05/2025 - 17:45
                +3

                @trapper: We need a poll of how many people don't even read their own links

                • Chandler on 22/05/2025 - 13:28

                  @star-ggg: I did, just not all of the relevant clauses unfortunately. Doing a u-turn at a roundabout from the outside lane is just stupid, but apparently legal in NSW…

                  To build on this: if I'm the Tesla in the right lane coming from Homebush Bay Dr northbound, and someone in the left lane of Australia Ave southbound joins me on the roundabout (in a similar position to the Mustang) to turn right (onto Homebush Bay Dr southbound), I need to stop on the roundabout and give way to them? Both are completely legal turns by both parties.

                  • trapper on 22/05/2025 - 13:39

                    @Chandler:

                    I need to stop on the roundabout and give way to them?

                    Yes. In this situation I would have slowed down or stopped allowing the mustang to pass in front, then changed lane behind him to exit.

                    What you can’t do is cut across another lane without checking and cause an accident.

                  • star-ggg on 22/05/2025 - 13:48

                    @Chandler: It's very clear in the printed road rules cars entering roundabouts need to give way to cars already in the roundabout. It's also printed in road rules the Tesla should have their left indicator on to let other cars know its intending to exit.

                    • Chandler on 22/05/2025 - 13:58

                      @star-ggg: Agreed. Didn't look at the footage close enough to see that the Tesla didn't indicate their exit. Sounds like it really is a shit sandwich!

              • Chandler on 22/05/2025 - 13:24
                +1

                @trapper: Fair call.

                Now this is an interesting intersection. I was going to say that they should be painting a straight arrow in the left lane and a straight/right arrow in the right lane at the midpoint of the roundabout for that turn, to clarify that the left lane cannot do a u-turn at the roundabout. But that would conflict with the markings at the Australia Ave southbound entry, which say that the right lane must turn right, and the left lane can turn right or go straight.

                Looks like a shit sandwich. Tesla drive made a fair assumption that the Mustang would be turning right - because who does a u-turn from the left lane - but strictly speaking it appears that the Mustang's turn was legal, and that the Tesla did "change lanes" on the roundabout and "cause" the collission…

                • SpendLess on 22/05/2025 - 13:31
                  +1

                  @Chandler: yeah definitely poorly design and confusing as its a unique roundabout. But as another poster mentioned the right turn/u-turn is allowed cause theres another entrance to the DFO at the next exit up which the Mustang may have been trying to get to

    • n3ck3ntry8bort0rgasm on 20/05/2025 - 18:41
      +2

      You can’t just get in the outside lane and do laps around the round about.

      yes you can it's called taking control of your life and executing free will. 🤠

    • apsilon on 19/05/2025 - 05:43
      +12

      Wouldn't happen to drive a grey mustang would you?

    • 2esc on 19/05/2025 - 09:38
      +3

      I understand where you coming from but it doesn't apply in this particular case.

      • star-ggg on 19/05/2025 - 10:29
        -1

        Are you saying it's completely illegal to do a U turn in that roundabout?

        • qtr pounder on 19/05/2025 - 21:20
          +18

          No, you need to be in the right lane.

          Who TF attempts a U Turn from the left lane? 😵‍💫

          • star-ggg on 19/05/2025 - 23:00
            -3

            @qtr pounder: Both lanes have the same turn direction arrows, why does the one in the right lane have a different meaning to the one in the left lane? If there were no arrow markings then 100% agree you can only right turn or U turn from the right lane.

            • lainey13 on 20/05/2025 - 13:42
              +9

              @star-ggg: Um, because those arrows are for turning RIGHT? The left lane driver did a U turn, thus NOT turning RIGHT… If they followed the direction of the arrow, they would have exited at the same exit that right lane driver did, but they would have exited into the lane next to the other driver and thus NOT caused an accident.

            • SpendLess on 20/05/2025 - 18:05
              -4

              @star-ggg: im with you on this @star-ggg.. even the lines on the round about road indicate that the Tesla should have stayed in his lane while the Mustang could turn or exit as indicated from the original arrows at the start.

              https://imgur.com/a/6cX2a8B

              • Chandler on 21/05/2025 - 17:02

                @SpendLess: Mustang broke road rule 42 - see my comment here

                • SpendLess on 21/05/2025 - 19:35

                  @Chandler: Go on google maps and look at the road again or even look at the cam again and look at the road signs and lines. If you look on google maps the next road up from them is Australia Ave and the road sign again shows that the left hand lane is straignt or turn right/u-turn and the right lane is turn right/u-turn only. So what happens if this time round its just the Tesla on the road only and the Mustang comes onto the road from Australia Ave where it says the left lane can go striaght or turn right/u-turn. Mustang was able to catch up and the Tesla goes straight as its turning and Mustang hits the Tesla?
                  Not all roundabouts are the same. There are signs on the road for a reasons and line markings for a reason. Both of which the Tesla ignored and caused this accident.
                  The lines on the roundabout indicated the Mustang could go straight or turn while the Tesla either merge and exit when safe to do so or continue doing a U-turn.

                  • Chandler on 22/05/2025 - 14:01
                    -1

                    @SpendLess: Hah - I literally just came up with that exact scenario just before reading your comment!

                    After reading what we've got so far, I'd say that both parties were doing a legal turn, but the Tesla apparently failed to indicate their exit and also should have given way to the Mustang. Having said that, it was a fair assumption (but it was an assumption!) by them that the Mustang was turning right, not turning around; and it looks to me that the Mustang wasn't in a easy spot to watch either.

                    • SpendLess on 22/05/2025 - 14:19
                      +1

                      @Chandler: yeah thats driving though you need to be weary of your surrounding. Feel bad for the Tesla cause it is a bad? uniquely? designed roundabout and if i ever drove it first time i may have also got caught out if i was not paying attention to the road signs and lines

        • david6509 on 22/05/2025 - 09:51
          +1

          Sounds like you need to go back to driving school bud. "When using a roundabout to make a U-turn, you must approach in the right lane" Mustang driver was not in the right lane and caused the accident.

          https://youtu.be/sCXtcXD17qU?si=uepmLsgchNDKWcyc&t=62

          • star-ggg on 22/05/2025 - 11:46
            -1

            @david6509: Hi bud, did your driving school teach you arrow markings on roads are for decoration only?

            • david6509 on 22/05/2025 - 14:22
              +1

              @star-ggg: The arrow marking where he entered from shows he can turn right.

              I still stand by the statement made by transport for nsw "When using a roundabout to make a U-turn, you must approach in the right lane"

    • SlickMick on 19/05/2025 - 10:17
      +2

      I remember that Chevy Chase Vacation movie - the right lane is trapped to just circle the roundabout until the left lane is clear, yeah?

      • trapper on 20/05/2025 - 10:36

        Yes, what's the alternative. Change lane when it's not clear and then crash?

        • SlickMick on 20/05/2025 - 12:51

          edit: sorry, yeah, if idiots blocking you from exiting you could potentially be stuck there I guess.

          • star-ggg on 20/05/2025 - 13:03

            @SlickMick: The correct lane as in the lane that is marked for the direction you are intending to travel?

      • Some Guy on 20/05/2025 - 17:41

        Big Ben, Parliament.

  • shxhshzhz on 18/05/2025 - 23:22
    +12

    Road Rules 111 (5)

    5) Despite subrules (2) to (4), if the driver is entering the roundabout from a marked lane and there are traffic lane arrows applying to the lane, the driver must—

    (b) if the arrows indicate 2 or more directions—drive in one of those directions after entering the roundabout.

    Mustang should be at fault. A uturn was not one of the directions indicated by the lane arrows. Only straight and right are permitted.

      • shxhshzhz on 18/05/2025 - 23:35
        +3

        Watch the video and read the post and road rules before commenting

      • Fredfloresjr on 19/05/2025 - 06:31
        +13

        FFS, PLEASE never drive on the road

        • tenpercent on 19/05/2025 - 07:24
          +3

          Have you ever seen any roundabout with an explicit u-turn allowed sign or marking?

        • star-ggg on 19/05/2025 - 07:52
          -7

          Cause I can read lane markings and know the rules?

      • MondaySleeper on 19/05/2025 - 09:45
        +5

        geez…. can you please stop driving for the sake of rest of the people on road?

    • AndyC1 on 19/05/2025 - 19:32
      +1

      This roundabout has the rule that is people have no idea, so watch out.

    • trapper on 20/05/2025 - 10:38

      The lane marking show that both lanes could continue around.

      • UltimateAI on 21/05/2025 - 11:12

        No both lanes can turn right. While you turns are permitted that doesn’t give you right of way.

        • trapper on 21/05/2025 - 14:17
          -1

          You always have the right to continue in the lane you are already in.

          • UltimateAI on 21/05/2025 - 16:09

            @trapper: You are correct, clearly I forgot about clause "a driver must not exit a roundabout if it would cause a collision with a vehicle continuing to circulate." (QLD only)

            • Chandler on 21/05/2025 - 17:04
              -2

              @UltimateAI: Mustang broke NSW Road Rule 42. See my comment here

              • trapper on 21/05/2025 - 17:23
                +6

                @Chandler: No, it is not a U-turn.

                The term U-turn is defined in the Road Rules Dictionary on page 330, and explicitly excludes turns made at a roundabout.

                U-turn means a turn made by a driver so that the driver’s vehicle faces in approximately the opposite direction from which it was facing immediately before the turn was made, but does not include a turn made at a roundabout.

  • MS Paint on 18/05/2025 - 23:26
    -5

    Why didn't the Tesla AI algorithm predict and avoid the accident?

    Subscription not paid?

    • randomusername2017 on 19/05/2025 - 06:41
      +1

      Defensive Driver Mode off.. Indicator target acquired.

    • Caped Baldy on 19/05/2025 - 10:38
      +1

      Smart car, dumb driver.

      Honestly, both drivers should have been more aware.

    • tasty-falafel on 21/05/2025 - 15:57
      -2

      Driver doesn't look white, that's why.

  • Fredfloresjr on 19/05/2025 - 06:30
    +26

    Whoever voted driver A is at fault is just solid I****, give your license back

    • Danstar on 19/05/2025 - 09:03

      Agreed.

    • st1ng on 19/05/2025 - 22:02
      -2

      Isn't it good I have a licence, not a license.

    • trapper on 20/05/2025 - 10:39
      +3

      lol driver A changed lane and crashed into another car. 100% fault.

  • ronnknee on 19/05/2025 - 09:09
    +11

    Have driven through this roundabout many times, and it's still quite scary each time (unsure if other drivers know what they should be doing).

    Also OP, your post was really hard to follow. The convention should've been left lane being driver A and right lane being driver B (left to right).

    • Jaduqimon on 19/05/2025 - 09:14

      it was like what you said before a recent change.

      See old google street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@-33.8541255,151.0766323,3a,75y,…

      • ronnknee on 19/05/2025 - 09:16

        Oops was editing my comment and left out this:

        To be fair, the double roundabout could've been made more driver-friendly by making left lane straight only and right lane can go straight or turn right. That way it's less ambiguous and less chance of accidents. I guess it was designed the current way to handle more traffic because it's always so busy around the area.

        But yea, they should've kept it that way because it's more conservative. All cars give way to cars already on the roundabout. Left lane only goes straight. Right lane can do whatever (and/or exit via left lane if it's safer).

        • Neoika on 19/05/2025 - 14:25

          Conservative but congestive, more cars staying on the inner lane for right turn as a result. I haven't been there, but it obviously was an issue that caused the usual change.

          Unfortunately, this change brings some opportunitists to do uturn in the outer lane. There should be a warning for vehicles in the outer lane, saying uturn prohibited.

    • TEER3X on 19/05/2025 - 09:15
      +4

      Seems like a recipe for disaster. I wonder how frequently accidents occur there now.

      • MondaySleeper on 19/05/2025 - 09:51
        +1

        its a notorious roundabout near DFO outlet, Homebush SYD

    • AndyC1 on 19/05/2025 - 19:30

      It's the most common accident spot on the roundabout, so you must have seen the crashes near the bus stop opposite DFO .

  • SlickMick on 19/05/2025 - 10:27
    +4

    I've experienced worse. I was in the left lane. A moron was in the right lane, but decided they actually wanted to turn left not right, and drove straight across in front of me to exit.

    Roundabouts don't work because there are too many stupid people (as this post has vote has revealed).

    Either driving tests need to be stricter so driving is a privilege only for the competent, or our roads need to be dumbed down to their level.

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