Evangelism at uni? Acceptable or not?

financialwar on 11/08/2015 - 19:00
Last edited 11/08/2015 - 19:46

University should a place of learning, knowledge and reasoning. But at Macquarie University, evangelical Christians are very active, they do this by writing christian and jesus crap everywhere on uni ground in chalk, display jesus loves you signs etc. Christians are the ones that does this, no other religion preaches.

http://www.christianunion.org.au/, the group is funded by https://www.afes.org.au/about

Whose goals are

<i>The Fellowship
AFES employs staff to help and encourage students in their Christian growth and witness, and has student groups on campuses in every state and territory in Australia. Groups hold a variety of activities, such as regular public Bible talks, smaller Bible studies, prayer groups, mid-year conferences and outreach events.

AFES provides materials to students for evangelism and Bible study, and releases various publications such as Salt Magazine and the email prayer resource, Prayernet.

The Vision
Proclaiming Jesus Christ at university to present everyone mature in Him.

The Mission
To promote the mission of Christ in Australian universities by building evangelical student groups that:

evangelise students by proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord
encourage growth toward maturity in Christ
train students in the skills and character to serve Jesus and his people
send graduates throughout Australia and the world to serve Christ
</i>

Do you think this acceptable on a University ground?

Poll Options

  • 248
    appropriate
  • 296
    not appropriate
  • 67
    Should be banned
Education & Work

Comments

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:34

          @nairdajun:

          Rich people could only afford scribes and paper. This is a true statement, but that doesnt mean that prophets were not able to find other means of recording scriptures. Moses recorded the ten commandments on stone. Prophets who wrote the scriptures down were at very least educated in writing. Ancient times also saw the use of hides to record writings, not everything was "written on pape

          You have completely avoided the fact EVERY SINGLE BOOK in the OT is written by a king or high priest.

          I have tried to show these people are plain evil. They dont just make mistakes like you or me, they actively go out and kill, slave, rape and do anything to keep power.

          So why are you trusting anything they say ?

          WOuld you believe Hitler if he claimed to be a prophet or would you just call him a liar ?

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:36
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: I am avoiding nothing, I am taking your understanding of slavery and equality of women, and making sense of it based on my understanding of the scriptures.

          In terms of slavery: Perhaps you would be interested to know that slaves were treated like property. People who owned slaves can kill them no questions asked, and that is perfectly fine in that historic context. Introduction of the laws to outline what ETHICAL TREATMENT OF SLAVES looks like. It took humankind more than two thousand years to abolish slavery, and you assume that slavery could be abolished at a time when slave labor drove the economy? They dont have robotics or production lines, or heavy machinery. if you abolished slavery at that time the world would have collapsed.

          Equality of Women: At a time when it was culturally unacceptable for women to speak to men unless first spoken to, and men do not speak to women - especially samaritan women. JESUS steps into this period and begins a conversation with a samaritan woman who is accused with having multiple husbands, and currently living with a man who is not her husband. Culturally this woman was in such a state of "shame", that she decided to go and get water from a well in the HEAT OF DAY (i.e. 40 degree sun)

          Not to mention when the laws were in place to stone both adulterers, the pharisees only brought the woman to jesus to test him. Instead of also condemning her, he also showed a picture of Gods forgiveness to her and set her free.

          Now at a time when wives were treated like property, and only a little better than slaves, who treated women better: society or jesus?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:36

          @nairdajun:

          Matthew went from being a tax collector and helping himself to people's money,

          NO where does the bible say he actually helped anyone. Its not really fair for you to invent or speculate that he did anything good or bad, because we simply dont know.

          to giving away half of what he owned to the poor, and repaying four times the amount he stole.

          WHere does it say this ?

          Peter went from being a coward to being used by God to heal a lame person.

          We both know theres no such thing as miracles. Remove the impossible and Peter did Absolutely nothing good to help anyone.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:39

          @nairdajun:

          I am avoiding nothing, I am taking your understanding of slavery and equality of women, and making sense of it based on my understanding of the scriptures.

          You are avoiding the priblem that the bible its the product of evil men.

          JESUS steps into this period and begins a conversation with a samaritan woman who is accused with having multiple husbands, and currently living with a man who is not her husband.

          You forgot to mention he tried to avoid her completely because she was a woman and samaritan. Go read the text a bit more carefully…Its full of racist overtones.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:41

          @nairdajun:

          Introduction of the laws to outline what ETHICAL TREATMENT OF SLAVES looks like.

          Go read Ex 21:20 where God via Moses says that masters can beat the shit out of slave providing they dont die within 2 days.

          Is allowing beatings like that ethical ?

          It took humankind more than two thousand years to abolish slavery, and you assume that slavery could be abolished at a time when slave labor drove the economy?
          They dont have robotics or production lines, if you abolished slavery at that time the world would have collapsed.

          SO your telling me god thinks its more important that rich men have slaves to they can live in luxury rather than give freedom and free poor slaves ?

          The rich people who wrote the bible put in things like this because its to their advantage. They dont give a shit about poor people, thats why all these laws are to help themselves. These same authors are all men so they dont give a shit about protecting women, as i have demonstrated with the rape laws etc.

          SO i will ask again, why is god giving slaves to rich people rather than freedom from what is an evil painful existance for the slave ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:43

          @nairdajun:

          Now at a time when wives were treated like property, and only a little better than slaves, who treated women better: society or jesus?

          Jesus treated women the same as everybody else, thats part of the problem.

          For 2000 years because of this example and many others, women have been denied equality in the church and this continues today. Everybody saw this example thats why women have had such a hard time in xian and islamic worlds. Jesus didnt teach the right things via his example.

          NO WHERE does Jesus say WOMEN are equal.

          Imagine how much better the world would have been from that time if he did and some people just listened to him. But he didnt and xians treated women as animals for nearly 1800 years.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:45
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: Sorry i got confused with Zaccheus.

          But matthew was a tax collector (also named levi) and thats what tax collectors do, they collect taxes from the Romans, and charge people a little bit more to pay themselves.

          "we both know there is no such thing as miracles". Sorry you are the only one who believes this. I have seen things in which i dont believe could be possible, but it happens. And anything is possible. I am not limited in the realm of what i deem is and isnt possible.

          I have heard testimonies of people being healed from cancer through a process, i have seen people who couldnt walk but received divine healing. This does nothing to convince you, but i have seen it. and the people who receive this healing believe it. Your cynicism does nothing to deny what we have actually seen and heard. Just because you cannot believe it or deem it is impossible, doesnt mean it hasnt already happened.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:45

          @nairdajun:

          But matthew was a tax collector (also named levi) and thats what tax collectors do, they collect taxes from the Romans, and charge people a little bit more to pay themselves.

          Yes i know tax collectors did those things… like i said no where does it claim he gave away his money to the poor.

          YOUR (profanity) LYING HERE AGAIN.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:46
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: What the f…seriously?
          Jesus approached her and asked for a drink…what are you even reading? Do you read greek or aramaic or hebrew? Somehow you have interpreted the english bible as one with racist overtones?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:47

          @nairdajun:

          we both know there is no such thing as miracles". Sorry you are the only one who believes this. I have seen things in which i dont believe could be possible, but it happens. And anything is possible. I am not limited in the realm of what i deem is and isnt possible.

          I dont believe, i KNOW this.

          SO do you believe MOhammad flew on a unicorn at night to Jerusalem one day ?

          Thats what muslims believe,..

          Your cynicism does nothing to deny what we have actually seen and heard.

          SO why do you believe the criminals who wrote the bible after you see their crimes and evil ?

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:48
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: Luke 19, story of zaccheus. “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I [d]will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I [e]will give back four times as much.”

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:49
          -1

          @nairdajun:

          When someone mentions someone is of a certain race, thats racist.

          The text clearly says Jesus tried to get away from here and she threw herself at him and begged.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:50
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: Oh man….seriously im just going to stop…I dont even know where you get that "criminals" wrote the bible. Clearly this discussion has gone from intellectual and knowledge seeking to just an argument with no other purpose but to 'prove the other wrong'. Lets just agree to disagree

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:56
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: What the f man.
          So if i refer to myself as an asian man therefore i am being racist to asians? How about JK rowling talking about Cho Chang describing her as a chinese girl? is that racist as well? If i say that Barack Obama is the first black american president, that makes me racist against african americans? Your logic mate…

          The narrator of the gospel outlines the identity of the race of the woman to explain how bizarre or out of the norm it was, that jesus was speaking to a samritan woman. JEWS WOULDNT DO THAT AT THAT TIME. This shows that race or gender does NOT matter to Jesus, he is willing to speak to all.

          Go and read John 4 again. i dont know how the hell you can conclude "the text clearly says jesus tried to get away from her and she threw herself at him and begged"

          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4

          Your comments pretty much confirm my suspicions. You dont actually know the scriptures at all.

        • Mumbles on 17/08/2015 - 15:19

          @nickster9999: Its just as confusing when non-Christians ask So how come bad things happen and why doesn't God do something about Satin.

          God created angels. Satin was an angel. God loves humans more than angels. Satin has freedom and power to ruin human lives plus influence humans away from God. Christians say God is more powerful and Satin must still submit to God. So how messed up is that?

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 16:09

          @nairdajun:

          Replace "Criminals" with "Dark Priest Class".

          Borrow this book from the library and read it yourself.

          The Bible fraud : an untold story of Jesus Christ by Tony Bushby. (Australian Author)
          http://library.sl.nsw.gov.au/search~S2?/Xbible%20fraud&SORT=…

          http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-Fraud-Untold-Christ/dp/09579…

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 16:43
          +2

          @Mumbles: I think a lot of people who dont really understand or believe in christianity give Satan more credit than he is actually due.

          The topic of interest you are discussing here concerns the idea of free will. God created both angels and humans, yet bible tells us that only humans are created in the likeness of God. Lots of people will define what this means in different ways, but thats one fundamental difference between us and angels.

          What is interesting that although God created angels and humans, He also gives them free will. Just as Satan is free to do harm in the world, so are we free to do harm (or good) in the world. There is this assumption from people that humans are born good - I dont believe this to be the case. I think as a consequence of sin, everyone is born into sin and therefore we are "born selfish". Babies dont need social cues or teaching on how to be selfish, they grow up selfish.

          I get the feeling you feel that it is unjust, and for the time being yes it seems that way. But a time will come where eventually God deems its time to hold people accountable for what they've done. Just as eventually criminals must face the judicial system…only that death doesnt excuse you from the "spiritual" judgement day.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 16:44

          @sintro: Thanks, will look into it.

        • mightyfes on 17/08/2015 - 16:49
          +1

          @Mumbles:

          Screw satin I worship cotton

        • belongsinforums on 17/08/2015 - 17:37

          @nairdajun: raised catholic mate, have read that POS. isnt your argument like saying, read star wars, filter out "the force", and you have a factual text? no doubt that some parts of it are RELATED to facts, but it's near impossible to determine what is truth and what is not, isn't it?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 17:48
          -2

          @nairdajun:

          Zaccheus did not write any bible books. You originally said Matthew was a tax collector and then you stated he gave half his belongings to the poor. None of the apostles gave anything to the poor, there is not one line in the bible that says any of them did.

          Lets stick to talking about real people. As i stated before none of the bible authors are good, kind or charitable people. I will state that try and keep your list to people we actually know something about, and not names that we know almost nothing.

          The bible authors as i stated previously are all pure evil. We dont believe Mohammad because we know he lied for his own advantage. I am stating the same is true of the bible authors particularly the OT where we have the reasonably detailed biographies of many characters.

          Try and stay on topic and get your facts right. I have not lied or made up anything. If you want more examples to back my claims use google or ask and i will show you straight from the bible that they are damned by their own stories.

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 18:01

          @nairdajun:
          You need change the typical imagery of Satan as an external evil figure that roams in Hell with a pitch fork and understand that Heaven and Hell are within us.

          Hell is the lower carnal mind and the place where people dwell to bring violence, immoral acts and hate upon the earth.

          Heaven is the higher realms of consciousness which brings morality and peace.

          As you can see the current state of Earth is more like hell. You can leave the hell of the lower mind by raising your consciousness to the higher state through actions such as meditation etc.

          When you enter within, separate and sever from thoughts of the lower mind (reptilian brain or R-Complex) and activate the single eye pineal gland, you rise in consciousness and out of Hell.

          That's the true salvation. The responsibility lies within all of us to 'save' ourselves and not by praying to or relying on some external force to come save you, give you the things and conditions that you ask for. You don’t need to go to church, say a few words, sing joyful songs and make any donations to organisations.

          In the physiology sense, humans have 3 independent yet interconnected sections in our brain:

          1) The Reptilian section
          2) The Limbic section
          3) The Neo-cortex section

          Each section has it’s purpose.

          The Reptilian section is the instant (no discernment) ‘survival mode’ response section of the brain. It is the oldest in terms of our human evolution, ‘The Old Brain’, The Reptilian Brain. (Also portrayed by the Talking Snake in Eden!)

          The Limbic section is the section of the brain that first emerged in Mammals. It generates our feelings and emotions in regard to our current reality.

          The Neo-cortex section is the Neo-Mammalian section of the brain, the evolved section of higher order thinking. It has infinite abilities. It is the evolved conscious section of our brain which is most in line with source, with our higher self, our true unlimited potential. It generates creation, manifestation, imagination, awareness, development, logical thinking, objectivity, empathy and most importantly: consciousness. ‘The New Brain’.

          That means that you must develop the ability to by-pass your reptilian brain frequencies through conscious DETACHMENT from the reptilian brain, by first recognizing it for what it is! It is simply a shift in perception that must occur within your consciousness.

          More people need to relise this simple fact so it will become a domino effect. Wakey! Wakey!

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 19:39
          +2

          @tomkun01: I Suppose so..but then as is with anything that was written thousands of years ago..there will always be gaps in the understanding. Unfortunately nobody had video cameras and could record thousands of years of history to the point we can point out hey look thats jesus guys… Then again i think thats the point of having faith… You need some small measure of faith to begin with the assumption that what you are reading is true.

          If for example i am reading published psych journals about theories of behaviour and such, if i continually criticize it and disregard it as true, i learn nothing. I have to at least begin with an open minded approach to say that yes, the results you have found are true. The explanation i might not agree with but there are true results. I am not saying "oh its all bullshit, your results are fabricated, and your academic merit is questionable". You have to afford the author some level of credibility.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 19:48

          @sintro: For the record i didnt downvote you, but its an interesting way you look at things. But i am not convinced that you can explain spirituality with biology and psychology. Its a fundamentally different aspect.

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 21:06

          @nairdajun:
          You might've missed my post…

          The Trinity taught in all religious traditions actually teaches you the Expressions of Consciousness.

          How and what are the ways you can make yourself known to other human beings?
          How can any other being come to know who you

          It is done through Thoughts, Emotions, Actions
          or Mind, Body, Spirit.

          Father/Thoughts (Mind) - The creative force that is the expression for consciousness within the individual. For anything to manifest in the physical domain it has to first exist as a thought. This computer I'm typing on, somebody had to envision all the parts, how to put them together. The clothes I'm wearing, the seat I’m sitting on, everything that exist had to first exist in the realm of thought.

          Holy Spirit/Emotions (Spirit) - The feminine aspect of consciousness. Other people don't feel your emotions, they can perceive or sense them but you are the one that feel the emotions in your physiology, it's an internal expression. You feel emotions inwardly inside your physiology hence this is a feminine expression of consciousness it is not something that is externalised and put out, it's something that’s felt within.

          So the “emotions” in the mind- body-spirit connection are the Spirit in which we do something so that’s the feminine force or the spirit. Of course thoughts occur in our mind so that’s the mind component of the consciousness.

          Then there is a union between them so you can look at Thoughts as the creative essence which then blends with or marries to the feminine, this notion is taught in many religious traditions. It’s call the Trinity and you can look at the Trinity that exists in all the religions, you can go back to Babylon, Indus Valley, Egyptian or Christian traditions, every single religious tradition that has talked of a Trinity, it is always a Father creator, a sacred feminine figure of some kind that the father impregnate or inseminate in some form and then from that offspring is born a male child, the Son.

          What we are talking about here is the father being the mind (the creative essence) then the spirit or the emotions being the scared feminine essence or the Holy Spirit and then the male child is behavior, it is active or masculine principle that actually interact with the physical world to change it. And hence that is the only way to actually save ourselves. People in religious thinking will immediately attack this and say ‘You’re saying that saving ourselves will not come through Faith’. YES I AM. Saving ourselves will only come through ACTION. ACTION will save humanity, faith will not do it. Sorry to smash the egoic attachment that people have to religious notions but these religions are created by the control system. People don’t understand that exoteric Christianity are created by the ancient dark occult mystery schools, they don’t understand where this religion came from because they haven’t studied Astrotheolgy.

          I’m not telling you that there are no good concepts in any religion. I’ll say take all the good concepts and leave the NONSENSE. Because one of the nonsense is that you need to believe in something to be saved from the current human condition. You don’t need to believe in a thing, you need to KNOW the TRUTH and right in your own religion there it is! In the scripture, what is the one prescription that the Christ figure gives to the people when he is asked about freedom? He’s only been asked about freedom only once in the gospels, in the words attributed to his teachings. They wanted to know what will save us and what will make us free. And what was his prescription? Knowing the TRUTH will make you free.

          “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32

          Why do you think I’m spending my time and attention to explain all this to you?
          Because if you, my brother (and others), understand this simple Truth there will be more progress for the human condition to move towards true freedom then it would if I just hide this truth from you.

          Please think about the Trinity within you (Thoughts, Emotions and Action) when you reply to this or next time to go to church or pray.

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 21:17

          @nairdajun:

          All good.

          If it's the first time you heard of it I don't expect you to be convinced or fully understand it right away.

          Just keep it at the back of your mind when the time is right and other information presents itself then you can connect the dots.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 21:50
          +1

          @sintro: I had a read of what you said, and just glossing over your Consciousness approach.

          I understand most of the gist of what you are saying but i dont agree that Christianity came about because of "dark magic schools" or have any relevance to Astrotheology.

          The argument that was made about people challenging the belief that Salvation will not come through Faith. We christians believe that salvation is a gift from God, and is not by works so that no man can boast (Ephesians 2:8). This is to mean that nobody can "earn" salvation. It means you cannot save yourself. Just like if the earth was consumed by a supernova from the sun, there is nothing you can do to save yourself. Now it is only in the last few months i understand what this message implies.

          The gospel will be offensive to most people. Nobody likes to hear that they must submit to a being higher than themselves to receive grace/redemption. Nobody wants to hear that there is only one way. For this reason many intelligent individuals have tried to reason that we have not come from God, that we have somehow evolved from monkeys and bacteria. And many would rather believe this than believe that we as human beings were crafted to perfection from a creator, who breathed life into us.

          I am glad you take the time to share this with me, but from someone who is both Christian and aspiring psychologist, these things do not consolidate with each other. The human psyche which involves our thoughts, our emotional responses, and our actions are all individual entities. They MAY influence each other, but people often act in ways that are inconsistent to their thoughts, or inconsistent to their emotions. The concept of the Trinity is that these are three beings that act in unison. No one entity does what is disapproved by the other, neither does one take action without consulting the others. Lets just say that this looks like a perfect ideal "committee" of higher leadership in a company. the CEO, CFO, Chairman all act in unison, with different roles but they operate the company and do nothing out of selfish ambition and do whats in the best interests of all parties.

          The reason this is different to your explanation is that based on what i know about human behaviour, humans operate often in ways that are inconsistent to how they think and feel. This is both good and bad. In a good example, if a person was cheated or wronged, they feel anger (emotion), they think of revenge (thought), but can decide to forgive (action). In a bad way, if a person was envious of someone else, they may feel jealous (emotion), quietly disrespecting the other person (thought), while appearing friendly (action).

          I can see some parallels, because if me as a christian believes that we are created in the image of God, and God exists as a trinity, then we should not be surprised to find some consistencies in that we have three parts to ourselves: a Physical, spiritual, and psychological. One analogy that christians often use, is that God the Father is like the Psychological, Jesus is the physical (because people could see and touch him), and the Holy Spirit was spiritual.

          You quoted a correct verse of scripture, however you also need to put beside that scripture John 14:6 which Jesus says: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. So like you say, knowing the Truth or knowing Jesus, will set you free. And that is very consistent to what we believe.

          I appreciate your discussion, as we have succeeded in keeping it intellectual and not emotional or personal. However I do think at this time there wont be convincing either of us on a mutually agreeable "truth". But i will ponder the things you say, in hopes i may be able to better understand you and any others who think this way if i come across them.

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 21:54

          @nairdajun:

          But i am not convinced that you can explain spirituality with biology and psychology. Its a fundamentally different aspect.

          People believe that the spiritual domain is separate from the physical domain.

          If you think that the spiritual domain is not where you are right now because you are in the physical domain. You are mistaken.

          If you think that the spiritual domain is some place other than the physical domain. You are also mistaken.

          If you place emphasis on one above the other and say this one take precedence and this one is not important, either you say the spiritual is more important and the world of matter shouldn't be given significance, it is IMBALANCE and it is NOT TRUE.

          Or if you say institutional science describe the material wold is all there is and the universe is like a dead mechanised clockwork that happened by accident for no reason and there's no such thing as the spiritual domain. Both of these worldviews are inaccurate, not based in TRUTH and most of all they are based on brain imbalance.

          My post on the Trinity is an example how the spirit realm interacts with the physical.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 22:04
          +1

          @sintro: Its true, i also think that the spiritual domain is somehow incorporated into the physical domain. If i did not agree to this, that means the spiritual has no power over the physical. But it does…that is how (well its what i believe) miracles can occur. How healings can happen and atheist,christian, agnostic doctors stand gaping in disbelief because its not medically or physically possible.

          There are some things i do understand/believe about the spiritual domain. One of them is that it operates on a different realm of possibility. It is not bound by conventional rules, it mocks (for lack of a better term) the "laws of physics", and it is timeless - that is it is not limited or bound by by time.

          So like i said, you cant use the physical to explain the spiritual. That would be like trying to explain the concept of free will by using cells and organs. I mean we can measure brain activity but we cant say that this the cells cause us to have free will.

        • nickster9999 on 17/08/2015 - 22:45

          @nairdajun:

          No, can you please give me a straight answer? What does your holy book say will happen to me ie a non-believer?

          Do I go to hell or not?

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 23:20
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: Right. Now that i have spotted this comment im going to open a can of worms in your so called personal attacks on me and my understanding of the scriptures. Where i have made mistakes i have been open to accepting and correcting myself. However you use very obnoxious comments.

          I never said David or any other bible character claimed to be god. You really need to read more carefully.

          Revert further up where you said:

          …All ancient kings claimed to be representatives of God. The pharaohs claimed to be sons of Horus etc, and so did the Jewish kings

          King David, Saul, Solomon were all Kings of Israel. Jews by association are Israelites. ffs.

          It is AMAZING actually AMAZING how you can take a verse out of context:

          "18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18.

          HOW THE F DID YOU CONCLUDE THIS MEANS THE LAW IS PERFECT AND NEEDS NO CHANGING?

          Jesus is merely saying that the Law is going to remain until "everything is accomplished".
          That is like saying "truly i tell you, that next year there will be a massive earthquake"…and then it actually happens.

          ffs your logic is amazing, i cant even keep up.

          Jesus never says killing, slaving, raping is wrong when its done by any bible author.

          Jesus says to LOVE YOUR GOD, and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. So does this mean that killing, slaving, raping, is OK? WOW lets think…i think its NOT okay!

          So according to you, Matthew who was a tax collector, Peter who spent his life being a fisherman and then a evangelist was eventually crucified, Paul who was an exemplary Pharisee - the worst of the worst when it came to the christian movement - arrested, killed christians. Spent his life then atoning for his sins and did more good to make up for the bad he did…somehow ALL THESE PEOPLE committed crimes against humanity.

          I didnt skip any details. Your erratic reasoning goes from one topic to another, and your logic is so flawed you bring in scriptural references, interpret them out of context (which is clear to see you do not even take into account the cultural context or literary context), make conclusions about scriptures that DONT EVEN MEAN anything to what you assume it means…Accuse me of telling lies when it seems SO clear that you just pick and choose bits that you like from the Bible, then use them out of context.

          I addressed your so called "interpretation" of the "rape law" in the OT. As i said, CONSIDER THE CULTURAL CONTEXT. This was not the 21st Century. There is no Feminist Movement yet. There is no Equal Rights policy. This is an era where might made right. Whatever was "right" was determined by whoever was in power. Introduce the OT Laws for ethical treatment. Essentially saying i dont care if you have 10x more gold than the other person, if you stole from him, you pay him back.

          The OT in its entirety documented the history of the nation of Israel. Documented the line of David, which Jesus would be born into. Documented the failings of the Israelites to acknowledge the coming of the Messiah, that Jesus and God was more compassionate and his standard of treating people SURPASSED what could be documented in Law.

          If you actually bothered to look in the bible and read it for its entirety, you would find that Psalm 139 says things like "you knit me in my mothers womb" "I praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made". The underlying understanding that ALL HUMANS (male and female) are fearfully and wonderfully made. Reinforced by Paul who in Galatians 3 wrote "In Christ there is neither male nor female, jew nor gentile, slave nor free. All are one in Christ".

          You just read bits of the bible that reinforce your skewed perspective of the christians, the history of israel and of the middle easterners, and of our faith in general. And then you make remarks like "if you define their ethnicity you are racist"…

          It is actually hilarious. Given this attribution of the violence and brutality of ISIS to the Israelites in the old testament, it makes me wonder if you are racist yourself.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:30

          @nairdajun:

          Most people dont realise that Satan basically doesnt exist in the OT. He only really appears in the trial and judgment of job.

          The snake in genesis is not Satan, its a talking snake. No where inthe text does it say the Snake is Satan. THis is an attempt by believers to get around the fact that believing in talking snakes it utterly stupid.

          Most people also dont realise that the bible also says that snakes used to fly before one of them decided to talk to Adam and Eve and as punishment snakes lost their flying abilities.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:34

          @nairdajun:

          Jesus says to LOVE YOUR GOD, and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. So does this mean that killing, slaving, raping, is OK? WOW lets think…i think its NOT okay!

          Ive told you several times, love they neighbour is Jesus quoting Lev 19:18.

          You simply have no concept that slaves were a different class of people and were not equal or considered humans. America when it wrote its decl of independence thought the same way. Everybody knows the first line is "all mean are created equal"…blah blah free and all that. Guess what ALL MEN for them didnt include NON WHITES.

          The same is true of Lev 19:18 it too says men should love their neighbours and then a few lines later it talks about slavery.

          You are truely bankrupted you keep on avoiding the problem that Jesus also NEVER condemns slavery. Half of the world were slaves back then, jesus would have seen thousands of slaves every dday, and YET he NEVER condemns it.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 23:34
          +1

          @nickster9999: Lets put it this way….

          According to my understanding, one day everyone in humanity's existence will be put on trial. They will be made accountable to God of what they did in this life, and judgement will ensue.

          Lets just take me for example. I imagine it to be like a divine courtroom (this is not biblical, this is just how i imagine it might be like). Behind the booth is not 1 judge, but 3. Jesus is one of them, Holy Spirit is there, and God the Father is there. During this time someone lists all the sins i have committed, all the people i have wronged, every single action with immediate and collateral consequences to harm others is listed. Repercussions of my actions that i was not aware of while i was alive, i have been shown and told. My soul will be laid bare for everyone to see. The weight of my sins and actions bring me down. It is at this point when Jesus steps out of the booth, picks me up and says "Son…your sins are forgiven". He turns to the Father and says this son of mine received my gift of salvation while he was on Earth. I stand as his advocate.

          This is kind of like what i imagine might happen. What happens after that i am not really sure. There are many references in the bible about being "cast in the darkness", "burning in the lake of fire" and people attribute this as "hell". Honestly nobody who has been to hell has come back to tell the story so…yeah. My idea of hell would be eternal separation from God.

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 23:35

          @nairdajun:

          I dont agree that Christianity came about because of "dark magic schools" or have any relevance to Astrotheology.

          You don't see the relevance because you haven't studied Astrotheology yet.

          I'll start off with a few points and an example of solar symoblism at a church.

          • The sun “dies” for three days at the winter solstice, to be born again on December 25th.

          • The Sun of God is “born of a virgin,” which refers to both the new or "virgin” moon and the constellation of Virgo.

          • The Sun’s “birth” is attended by the “bright star,” either Sirius/Sothis or the planet Venus, and by the “Three Kings,” representing the three stars in the belt of Orion.

          • The sun at its’ zenith, or 12 noon, is in the house or heavenly temple of the “Most High;” thus, “he” begins “his father’s work” at “age” 12. Jordan Maxwell relates, “At that point, all Egypt offered prayers to the “Most High God.”

          • The Sun enters into each zodiac sign at 30 degrees; hence, the “Sun of God” begins his ministry at “age” 30. The Sun of the visible heavens has moved northward 30 degrees and stands at the gate of Aquarius, the water-bearer, or John the Baptist of the mystic planisphere, and here begins his work of ministry in Palestine.

          • The “Sun of God” is the “Carpenter” who builds his daily “houses” of 12 two-hour divisions.

          • The “followers” or “disciples” of the “Sun of God” are the 12 signs of the zodiac, through which the Sun must pass.

          • The “Sun of God” is “anointed” when its’ rays dip into the sea.

          • The “Sun of God” “changes water into wine” by creating rain, ripening the grape on the vine and fermenting the grape juice.

          • The “Sun of God” “walks on water,” referring to its’ reflection upon the waters' surface.

          • When the “Sun of God” is annually and monthly re-born, he brings life to his former self, raising it from the dead.

          • The “Sun of God” is the “Lion” when in Leo, the hottest time of the year, called the “throne of the Lord.”

          • The “Sun of God” is hung on a cross, which represents its’ passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter.

          • The “Sun of God” wears a corona, a “crown of thorns,” or halo.

          Example:
          This is the stained glass window at Leonard's Church at Naremburn.
          http://oi60.tinypic.com/t0gntd.jpg

          There is a red SUN in the center and inside the SUN it reads "IHS" which is a monogram or a combination of letters that forms the abbreviation of the name Jesus Christ. The SUN/SON has twelve orange rays that represents the 12 disciples and the outer circle is also divided into twelve sections which represents the 12 signs of the zodiac that the SUN passes through each year.

          The Bible is not a religious book, it's a book of allegories for the microcosm - ancient psychology of the human mind explaining how higher conciousness can be achieved which is the actual teaching of Jesus and the macrocosm which is the movement of the Sun/Son (of GOD) across the sky throughout the year and if you take the scriptures in the Bible literally then it's like a children's story book with good moral teaches. I hope you have read that Christmas web link I posted previously http://www.jesusastrotheology.com/wintersoltice.htm.

          And the way they work out Easter Sunday is the first Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal (spring) equinox (for the northern hemisphere) when the Sun is at the day/night equilibrium rising above the equilibrium. This is also where the cross came from, if you look at the image like a clock, 9 represents the spring equinox, 12 represents the summer solstice, 3 represents the autumn equinox and 6 is the winter solstice. When the Sun moves from pass 9 the spring equinox the Sun/Son is said to be resurrected from the death of the winter season. So every year the Sun/Son dies and is reborn on the cross.

          I can tell you plenty more but I hope this information will help you see the solar symbolisms next time you go to church.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 23:36
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: for fuks sakes man. John 13:34-35

          34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

          HOLY SHIT DID JESUS SAY THAT? THAT DONT SOUND LIKE IT CAME FROM LEVITICUS

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:37

          @nairdajun:

          So according to you, Matthew who was a tax collector,

          I never said that at all. I said we dont know much about Matthew. We cant comment if he did or bad things because there simply is nothing either way in the gospels etc.

          Peter who spent his life being a fisherman and then a evangelist was eventually crucified,

          The bible never says Peter was crucifed.

          Paul who was an exemplary Pharisee - the worst of the worst when it came to the christian movement - arrested, killed christians.

          That never happened. What Paul claims to do is what we would call terrorism. ROme would not allow ANYONE to go around just killing people for any reason, because it causes social unrest and gets in their way of collecting tax.

          Spent his life then atoning for his sins and did more good to make up for the bad he did…somehow ALL THESE PEOPLE committed crimes against humanity.

          Where does it say Paul helped anyone who was poor sick or in trouble ?

          In the book of Philemon we have the account of Omnesis a xian slave running away from his xian master, and guess what Paul does ?

          He sends him back to his master. What kind of arsehole tells a slave looking for comfort to return to his evil master ?

          Next time you reply to me, please quote what i say… you seem to have a bad habit of misreprsenting my words completely.

          I have already caught you lying about Constantine, Ezekiels prophecy, and caught you on many mistakes like your claims about Noah.

          You still refuse to address why you believe the criminals who wrote the OT. Would you goto a prison and believe the stories of murders and rapists and other vile scumbags in prison ? Because if you ebleive the bible authors, you should believe everybody in prison. Every single bible author is 100x worse than any criminal in Australias prisons today.

        • sintro on 17/08/2015 - 23:38

          @ninetyNineCents:
          Who mentioned anything about the talking snake being Satan? The voice of the snake refers to the lower mind (reptilian brain), that is all.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 23:40
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: OH MY GOODNESS I CANT BELIEVE WHAT IM HEARING.

          Most people dont realise that Satan basically doesnt exist in the OT

          GUESS WHAT. JOB IS IN THE OT. The events of Job occurs between Noah and Moses. HOLY SHIT

          No where does it say that the snake is Satan. That is true. However Satan is called the deceiver. Thats not enough to say that the snake is Satan, but whether the snake was Satan or not, doesnt really change anything.

          HOLY SHIT SNAKES USED TO FLY? Please provide scriptural reference GENIUS. There is no scripture like that. Making up shit again i see.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:41

          @nairdajun:

          According to my understanding, one day everyone in humanity's existence will be put on trial. They will be made accountable to God of what they did in this life, and judgement will ensue.

          NO where in the OT does it say mankind will be judged. This is an invention of the NT.

          How does one explain that the jews for 1000 + years never knew about this ?

          How does one explain that no where in the OT is Jesus mentioned ?

          Dont you realise that the bible is filled with complete absurdities and contradictions against itself.

          You are inventing your own belief system thats not even in the bible. I could show you a 100x things that would literally blow your mind about the bible. You dont realise at all how different you are from anybody in the bible.

          For starters as i have mentioned before, you hate slavery, and yet NOBODY in the bible says a single word against that.

          Thats pretty (profanity) up isn it it. God speaks to all these people for thosuands of years and he cant even get around to teaching them that slavery is wrong. THe same goes for women, 3000 years and God still doesnt have the capacity to teach his children that women are equal. Thats just like islam and its terrible crimes against women. Xians are no different and believe the same about women even until today.

          You might think differently but you are breaking the laws of the bible on this matter. For example Paul says that women are too stupid and shouldnt talk in churchm and should ask their husband questions at home. Why are you listening to this idiot ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:46

          @sintro:

          Nobody, i was just trying to show that Nairdajun, has no idea that hes/her beliefs are completely different and unfounded on the bible on something as major as Satan.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 23:47
          +1

          @sintro: I think you might find i dont go to a roman catholic church, and we dont have stained glass windows with artistic renditions of a white jesus in 15th century clothing.

          I kind of understand what you are talking about, many people have made references to that kind of stuff and christianity but i like to keep them seperate. Because if i believe that the bible is true, then these people have attributed the Creation as "gods" rather than the creator. If God created the stars and Moon, set the universe into motion, spun the galaxies and breathed life into humans, i think it makes more sense to put more emphasis on the creator, rather than the creations.

          Kind of like paying attention to the cause not the symptoms.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:52

          @nairdajun:

          HOLY SHIT SNAKES USED TO FLY? Please provide scriptural reference GENIUS. There is no scripture like that. Making up shit again i see.

          Lets not forget you also believe snakes could talk, its not far fetched to also believe snakes used to fly…Go read about seraphs. The jews believed in flying snakes just like all other ancient cultures. REmember the story of Nehashutan the bronze snake that Moses put up to save the people. The word Levi means snake as well.

          Ancient peoples thought snakes were magical etc.

          Bolding is mine…

          http://biblehub.com/genesis/3.htm

          14The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:55

          @nairdajun:

          There is no scripture like that. Making up shit again i see.

          Hey apologise i havent made anything up.

          Everything i have said is 100% true.

          I have even provided bible quotes several times.

          Lets not forget how many mistakes ( or were they lies) you have made starting with Constantine, Ezekiel, Noah, authorship of Ruth, etc.

          You also lied about slavery, several times and continue to do. You lied about rape being allowed in the bible.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:57

          @nairdajun:

          GUESS WHAT. JOB IS IN THE OT. The events of Job occurs between Noah and Moses. HOLY SHIT

          I think its pretty fair to say Satan basically doesnt exist in the OT after you realise he barely says 10 lines out of 1000 pages. The book of Job is one book out of nearly 50.

          Then again Jesus is NEVER mentioned anywhere in the OT. NOT ONCE!!!.. He doesnt talk, doesnt appear by name or title or anything.

          talk about bullshit.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 23:57
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: Paul made some suggestions for orderly worship.

          again: Do you understand the cultural context and the situational context? NOPE THATS WHY YOURE BRINGING THIS UP.

          The church in question had problems. How would you like it if you went to an orchestral performance and some MALES decided to be rowdy and scream while they were playing? You would tell them to stfu. Stop misinterpreting scripture, using it to reinforce your narrow minded understanding, then telling everyone "HEY GUYS PAUL HATED WOMEN". Women in this church were disrupting a worship service. They had questions..GREAT! but ask them in an appropriate time. How would you like it if you were giving a presentation and some women kept interrupting you every three words to ask "What does that mean"? You would get angry and tell them to LET ME FINISH. this is NO DIFFERENT.

          We christians view Jesus as the fulfilment of the law. We aim to live out the actual essence of the law, which is to love one another. Because we believe like Paul does, if everyone was capable of loving one another, you wouldnt NEED law. Police wouldnt have any work to do, Lawyers would not be required. There would be no need for a judicial system, because everyone is trying to outdo each other in love and kindness. Thats the world we hope for. thats the ESSENCE of what we believe. So it doesnt matter if you pull inconsistencies in the bible or not, because like i said our core beliefs are:

          1) We are Sinners in need of a saviour
          2) Jesus died on the cross for our sins
          3) We have salvation. And we are being commanded to love one another.

          The bible is supposed to be used to HELP US do that. To help us understand how to love each other. So if you can for one moment set aside your cynicism and conclusions that the bible was written by evil people and actually seek to understand how the majority of us christians try and accomplish that, you might actually start to see some correlations between the OT and the NT, and how christians who took the bible seriously went on to help instigate on real world social issues like the abolition of slavery.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 23:58

          @nairdajun:

          again: Do you understand the cultural context and the situational context? NOPE THATS WHY YOURE BRINGING THIS UP

          Stop making excuses for those evil men. Of course we know slavery was everywhere.

          Show some backbone and stand up for whats right and stop making excuses for the criminals who lied and claim god wants slaves because they are kings and deserve them.

          We dont make excuses for pedophile practices that some middle east cultures think is acceptable do we ? We dont we know its wrong so apply the same standards on the bible.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:00

          @nairdajun:

          Women in this church were disrupting a worship service. They had questions..GREAT! but ask them in an appropriate time. How would you like it if you were giving a presentation and some women kept interrupting you every three words to ask "What does that mean"? You would get angry and tell them to LET ME FINISH. this is NO DIFFERENT.

          DO you really think ONLY women interrupted church services ?

          Are you stupid ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:03

          @nairdajun:

          We christians view Jesus as the fulfilment of the law. We aim to live out the actual essence of the law, which is to love one another

          We ?

          For 1800 years xians, didnt think or act the same. THey went around the world slaving, killing, raping anyone they could.

          BTW: Jesus did not fulfill any law, you cant fulfill laws. How exactly does one fulfill thou shalt not steal ? or thou shalt not work onthe sabbath ?

          YOu cant, this is utter bullshit yet again from xians.

          which is to love one another

          Yet again xians have not loved each other for 1900 years.

          YOu need to go back and check what xians did to each other and everybody else for 1900 years. Wars, slaves, rapes on a GLOBAL SCALE.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 18/08/2015 - 00:03
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: holy shit man…this is so amazing im thinking of sharing it on social media seriously.

          You have abandoned sound reasoning and just stubbornly sticking to your own beliefs. Even as I, being more deeply read in the scripture, having a deeper understanding of the cultural context and literal context for whom it was written, trying to explain to you the context so it makes more sense…NOPE doesnt help. You still believe that somehow, the scriptures mean exactly what they say with your 21st century worldview. TOTALLY disregarding that the scriptures are thousands of years old, writing to a people of a DIFFERENT cultural context, and a DIFFERENT world view. More than that, you believe that the authors of scripture were evil, hated people, revelled in criminal behaviour, and that somehow God doesnt love you, he in fact hates you and want you to be a slave to Him.

          this is so amazing.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:03

          @nairdajun:

          The bible is supposed to be used to HELP US do that. To help us understand how to love each other.

          Is it love to make laws that allow slavery and rape of women ?

          THe jews in the OT didnt love their neighbours one bit… go check what happens in Joshua etc.

          Your claims are complete and utter bullshit. The shear scale of the wars against neighbours in the OT by jews because they want to steal their gold and virgins completely overshadows your complete BULLSHIT.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:07

          @nairdajun:

          how christians who took the bible seriously went on to help instigate on real world social issues like the abolition of slavery.

          You forgot to mention that xians are the world champions in slavery by a wide margin.

          Thats BILLIONS of slaves under xian power by xians who went to church every sunday.

          Jesus and the bible must be the worst teachers in history because their pupils took 1850 years to realise slavery iss wrong.

          BTW: The christian church opposed abolishment. GO check your history books. For example it was the xians in the bible belt who were the confederates.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:09

          @nairdajun:

          Because we believe like Paul does, if everyone was capable of loving one another, you wouldnt NEED law. Police wouldnt have any work to do, Lawyers would not be required.

          What a load of bullshit. You seriously need to go read how terrible life was for the average joe int he bible under gods prophets. The same applies to xian europe where we were all slaves of the king and church.

          Let me remind you yet again, how terrible life was for slaves. YOu have a 50% chance of being a slave. Now read Ex 21:20 where it says a master can beat his slave. Goto Deu where it says a master can force himself on his female slaves.

          Is that a good future for anyone ?

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 18/08/2015 - 00:09
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: Jesus can fulfill a law because if Jesus never stole, he fulfilled it. If he never murdered, he fulfilled it. If he took sabbaths throughout his life, he did it.

          GUESS WHAT? thats the point. He lived the life WE CANT.

          Oh so somehow being christian means that we become so holy that we cant do any wrong. GUESS WHAT? were STILL HUMAN. We stuff up, we trip over, we do some bad crap for selfish reasons. But were trying. Are you perfect?

          What about the atrocities committed by non-christians? So you somehow think you are better than christians, that christians are evil? Hitler? Pol-pot? North Korean leaders? You love slavery right? Egyptians? Persians? Babylonians? How about North Vietnam? Japanese? Middle Easterners?

          Christians get a bad rap from select few in our history that give us a poor name. That is no different to any of the races and nations i have outlined above. Except people like you think that because were Christians means were not allowed to mess up, and that we have to be perfect.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:13

          @nairdajun:

          You have abandoned sound reasoning and just stubbornly sticking to your own beliefs.

          I have not. I am simply showing you how evil your god is with his laws and you think they are perfectly fine.

          You make excuses for criminals of the worst kind.

          Even as I, being more deeply read in the scripture, having a deeper understanding of the cultural context and literal context for whom it was written, trying to explain to you the context so it makes more sense…NOPE doesnt help.

          So your agreeing Moses lied when he claimed those laws like slavery and rape are from god ?

          How come God never corrects them after Moses died ?

          Is your GOd blind or stupid ?

          You still believe that somehow, the scriptures mean exactly what they say with your 21st century worldview.

          SO your agreeing that OUR AUSTRALIAN morality is better than YOUR GODs.

          TOTALLY disregarding that the scriptures are thousands of years old, writing to a people of a DIFFERENT cultural context, and a DIFFERENT world view.

          Is the bible from God or written by frauds as i claimed ?

          More than that, you believe that the authors of scripture were evil, hated people, revelled in criminal behaviour,
          They are… you havent shown me a single example to prove me wrong.

          Show me a single example of THREE BIBLE AUTHORS doing charity or kindness to anyone …

          Put up or shutup.

          and that somehow God doesnt love you, he in fact hates you and want you to be a slave to Him.

          If GOd loves everyone he would not make laws like slavery now would he ?

          If he can ban eatting pork he can also ban slavery. WHy cant your god show a little backbone on real issues instead of wasting dozens of laws about shaving beards and other stupidities.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 18/08/2015 - 00:20
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: You know what, this is the last response im going to make to you. Because its clear that youre not willing to move, open up, or even listen. Youre not really asking questions, youre just taking shots at christianity, and at me.

          This was a problem in this time of this specific church. That is why PAUL is WRITING A LETTER TO THE SPECIFIC CHURCH…IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO READ THE WHOLE THING.

          PAUL didnt write any letters to OTHER CHURCHES regarding this issue, which suggest that this problem was ISOLATED to this church. After Paul and the disciples founded the churches in these areas, women WERE EMPOWERED. For the first time WOMEN AND MEN were in the same room, worshipping TOGETHER. in the Old days in the temple, they were separated in different halls. They never had to DEAL with this issue until now. With the rise of these new churches, many of these churches started up small, and were predominately Gentiles. Gentiles dont have the same cultural norms as the Jews, and theres no Cultural Norm that stops them from speaking up. PAUL was saying this "I do not allow women to …." based on his CULTURAL norm. If men were also disturbing the service, i expect Paul to say the SAME THING.

          But again, you probably will say something like "Dont make excuses for these evil people" and make no attempt to understand the cultural and historic context. You seem to love pulling bits and pieces out of context, using them as ammunition to fire at the christian belief.

          Id love to see what you're like in an academic forum.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:21

          @nairdajun:

          You have abandoned sound reasoning and just stubbornly sticking to your own beliefs.

          Its not a belief its a fact. I already showed you that several bible authors are criminals of the worst kind.

          Moses killed 15000 for speaking against him.

          Is he not a truely evil man or not ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:24

          @nairdajun:

          You know what, this is the last response im going to make to you. Because its clear that youre not willing to move, open up, or even listen. Youre not really asking questions, youre just taking shots at christianity, and at me.

          Im not taking shots at all, im simply pointing out the truth that you cant defend.

          I claimed that the bible authors in the OT are criminals and i have given some examples of their crimes, by QUOTING the bible.

          I am not making anything up, everything i have said is FROM the bible, and i have provided quotes on several occasions.

          One last question, do you know where the word testament comes from ? It will blow your mind…

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:28

          @nairdajun:

          PAUL was saying this "I do not allow women to …." based on his CULTURAL norm.

          We both know where Paul got his attitudes. The question is why are you listening to this idiot, even after he says such stupid things ?

          Do you also go see witchdoctors who believe in evil spirits and magic when you are sick or do you goto a real doctor ?

          What kind of idiot thinks Paul or any bible author has a morality or truth to teach us.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 18/08/2015 - 00:33
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: No because instead of remaining as an intellectual argument and fact finding, knowledge seeking mission, here you are calling me a "liar" because i simply stated what i understood to be true.

          For example: I understood Constantine to be a christian, so thats what i said. I retracted that statement when i couldnt base it definitively.

          You have been pulling things out of context from the bible. That doesnt make what you say fact or true. That is just like me pulling out quotations from academic journals out of context and summarizing that this is fact because this journal said so without looking at confidence intervals, validity and reliability statistics, and cultural context.

          To me its plain to see that you dont even want to consider that actually the Bible might be a story of God's loving will for mankind, and although shit happened along the way, he always wanted us to be in relationship with Him and each other. To love each other and treat each other as we would want to be treated. No actually instead you firmly believe that because the OLD testament laws were written for a people WERE SLAVES how to ethically treat slaves if they ever owned any, and that wars that Moses was involved with made him a mass-murderer, i expect you want to say King David also was a mass murderer even though Israel was constantly at war with other nations.

          Yes i do know where the word testament comes from. It comes from 13th century Latin which can translate to "will", "law" or "covenant". Which makes sense. The OLD Testament was the OLD covenant. More specifically, the Covenant that God made with people in the OT. Culminating to the Covenant of the Messiah. aka God's promise to send a Messiah. The New Testament or Covenant/will of God/Law is Jesus. The covenant being that we are redeemed by him and Saved by him, Gods Will that he always wanted to be in relationship with us, and Jesus as the fulfilment of the Old Laws.

          So yeah. Nice conversation but this is going nowhere, and i have work to do. I just realised unfortunately instead of spending time trying to share knowledge with you i have actually wasted time that i should have used doing my readings and catching up on study.

          If ever one day you actually are interested to find out more, without attacking every single thing christians believe in and have to say, and actually genuinely are interested in finding out more. Maybe we can talk again in future. Call me a coward if you like, but Im going to just stop while im ahead and not saying highly offensive things that i will regret later.

          Cheers. Good luck with convincing christians that the bible's authors are evil criminals and that God is evil.

        • sintro on 18/08/2015 - 01:04

          @nairdajun:

          Kind of like paying attention to the cause not the symptoms.

          If you ignore the symptoms you won't go looking for the cause. As in if I had a red rash on my elbow but I'm ignoring it all together then I won't be trying to find out what caused it.

          The stars are a reflection of what is inside you, see point #2.

          The Eight Principles of the Universe:

          1. Principle of Mentalism: “All is Mind”. If you want to change reality. You yourself will need to change the way you think through your thoughts and emotions.

          2. Principle of Correspondence: “As is above, so is below. As is below, so is above.” The very large, the totality and the very small, individual units which comprise the whole are reflections of each other. The universe is Holographic, self-similar across all scales. The universe is inside the individual and entire universe is like an individual, they are reflections of each other. To know the workings of the individual will help us understand the macrocosmic laws similarly to learn the macrocosmic laws will help us learn how the concsiousness in the individual functions.

          3. Principle of Vibration: “Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.” The Universe has no "solidity, as such. Matter is merely energy in a state of vibration. This is a spiritual construct, we are here to learn and gain and grow in consciousness. We are spirit having a human experience, the whole universe is spiritual having an experience in solidity.

          4. Principle of Polarity: “Everything is dual; everything has an opposite, and opposites are identical in nature but different in degree.” Eg. Are hot and cold really opposites or can we look at it as the presence of heat energy and the absence of heat energy meaning they are the same thing fundamentally.

          5. Principle of Rhythm: “Everything flows, out and in; the pendulum-swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left- rhythm compensates.” Eg a plane flying with the flow of the wind will require less energy and plane flying against the wind will require more energy. At this time more WILL and EFFORT is required to move the consciousness in a positive direction to break down the pre-existing belief systems that don't serve who we are.

          6. Principle of Cause and Effect: “Every cause has its effect; every effect has its cause.” Everything happens according to Law. "Chance" is a name for Law not recognised. There are many plane of causation but nothing escapes the Law. you cannot break a law without consequence, negative consequence. The effect will not happen immediately, there will be a time lag. If you did a wrong and immediately a bee stung you within two seconds every time, you will connect the stinging with the wrongful act that you did but since that doesn't happen and there is a time lag at experiencing something harmful to ourselves or to other people it is very difficult for people to see the connection. Karmic consequences is more complicated than that, all of us are experiencing in the aggregate the wrongs that the human species is conducting on a daily basis which we do attempt to rectify and stop which karmic action is being accrued due to inaction.

          7. Principle of Gender: “Everything has its masculine and feminine principles.” Mental gender is the state of co-existence between Masculine and Feminine aspects of the human mind. Our Left Brain Hemisphere largely facilitate the Masculine aspect of the mind or Intellect (logic, analytical and linear though processes), while the Right Brain Hemisphere largely facilitates the Feminine aspect or Intuition (creative, compassionate and holistic though processes).

          Finally the 8th Generative Principle is CARE. What are you giving attention and helping to grow. What are you focusing upon? What are you focusing upon ultimately gets generated. But that does NOT mean you be ignorant of the negative because you're going to feed that and give power to it. That is actually feeding IGNORANCE and that is going to grow. By ignoring the negative you are ensuring more of it occurs. Ultimately this is what you are giving your energy, this is what you are focused upon to, this is what you actually CARE enough about to do to spend your time on, pay attention to manifest in the world. That's what generates our experience in the aggregate. Most people DON'T CARE about what is really happening, therefore it is impossible for us in the aggregate to the change the direction of energy, to change the direction of consciousness and ultimately to get what we say we want.

          What we care about on a day-to-day basis acts as the driving force of our thoughts and actions. Therefore Care can be seen as the ultimate Generator of the quality of our experience. This Principle has been has been often been referred to as the Generative Principle. The word generative is derived from the Latin verb genere, which means "to create".

          Eg. We need to develop the HEART, MIND, GUTS. You gotta Care enough to Know, to develop the knowledge, then you gotta Act on it and put it into practice and apply it. So that's the order Heart, Mind, Guts or CARE, KNOWLEDGE, ACTION. Those are the steps, all three of those have to be in place, that's what unity consciousness is, it's unifying Thoughts, Emotions, Actions the three aspects of consciousness.

          People wait a lifetime and miss out on this knowledge. I've shared this to you for FREE. Save it, read it and do more study into it.

          Honestly, I can show you more about spirituality from the outside of a church than a lifetime inside a church.

        • AusBargainhunter on 18/08/2015 - 03:41

          @sintro:

          It may be free, but there's certainly nothing new in what you wrote that isn't found in numourous belief systems, and self help books.

        • sintro on 18/08/2015 - 08:24

          @AusBargainhunter:

          I'm not proclaiming that it is anything new.

          As the old saying goes: "There is nothing New under the Sun" is means that Truth is singular and eternal. It has always been here and it will always be here whether you notice it or not.

          This is what we to to pay attention to and spend time on, it's great to know it is in self help books because this is what it is for.

          To study this further, can you share with me which book you found this information in?

        • AusBargainhunter on 18/08/2015 - 09:06

          @sintro:

          Just to make it clear, I'm not interested in talking about existential rabble.

          But if I must make a list - numerous Psychology texts I have read (too many to name), DBT, CBT, ACT, Positive Psychology (Harvard University - Psychology 1504). Books like the 7 habits of highly effective people, the power of now, the happiness trap, and countless others.

          Good luck on your quest for knowledge, meaning, and fulfilment.

        • AusBargainhunter on 18/08/2015 - 09:11
          +1

          @sintro:

          Just to let you know … "History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new." Ecclesiastes 1:9

          You might want to read the whole 1st chapter. The "meaning" is more or less explained here "1:9-11 Men's hearts and their corruptions are the same now as in former times; their desires, and pursuits, and complaints, still the same. This should take us from expecting happiness in the creature, and quicken us to seek eternal blessings. How many things and persons in Solomon's day were thought very great, yet there is no remembrance of them now!".

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 11:23

          @nairdajun:

          No because instead of remaining as an intellectual argument and fact finding, knowledge seeking mission, here you are calling me a "liar" because i simply stated what i understood to be true.

          You are not looking for truth at all. NOT ONCE have you quoted the bible. I asked you to show me several things from the bible and you WONT or CANT.

          ere you are calling me a "liar" because i simply stated what i understood to be true

          You lied about constantine and you lied about ezekiel and you lied when you said Matthew donated his money to the poor.

          You told me xians disapprove of slavery and then i showed you Jesus telling stories that slavery is fine and then theres the example of a xian giving a tough time to another xian slave. This slave in the book of Philemon runs to Paul. What does Paul do ? Does he say slavery is wrong ?

          Your claims about xians not doing slavery are a COMPLETE LIE. From bible times until the 1890s.
          Every time i challenge you to go to the bible to back a claim you make it turns out your WRONG or LYING…
          Is it honest to say xians think slavery is wrong when you have nearly 2000 years of them doing it ?

          This is why you refuse to go check the life stories and actions of the OT bible authors, because YOU KNOW im correct.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 11:29

          @nairdajun:

          What about the atrocities committed by non-christians? So you somehow think you are better than christians, that christians are evil? Hitler? Pol-pot? North Korean leaders? You love slavery right? Egyptians? Persians? Babylonians? How about North Vietnam? Japanese? Middle Easterners?

          Of course those peoples in the past did wrong, but nobody should go around pretending they are examples we should follow.

          Your argument is again complete crap. Imagine a pedophile in your street hurt some kids and then told the police dont worry theres another pedophile somewhere else in Australia.

          Show some backbone and integrity and stop making excuses for the criminals who are in the bible that you treasure as bible authors and heros.

          Its only when we stop lying about the bible we can move and become better humans. The morals of the bible are flawed, just like Shariah law. If you want to see the bible laws in actions goto Afghanistan or ISIS and you can see God and his laws that he gave to Moses in all their glorious action and pain. Slavery , mistreatment of women etc thats what YOUR GOD gave to Moses.

          Its strange how YOUR GOD would be so evil to share such stupid and cruel laws in the first place.

          But you never want to talk about the OT and Moses laws, because they are a disgrace and shame that you cannot escape.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 11:42

          @nairdajun:

          Cheers. Good luck with convincing christians that the bible's authors are evil criminals and that God is evil.

          Are these the works of "good" "kind" men we should listen or appreciate or are they MORAL MONSTERS ?

          Moses killed 15000 supporters of Korah for disagreeing with him in a discussion..

          >
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korah

          Numbers 16:1-40 indicates that Korah rebelled against Moses along with 249 co-conspirators and were punished for their rebellion when God sent fire from heaven to consume all 250 of them. Korah's Reubenite accomplices, Dathan and Abiram, were also punished when God caused the ground to split open beneath their feet swallowing them, their families, anyone associated with Korah, and all their possessions.

          Numbers 16:41 Furthermore, the Israelites who did not like what had happened to Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) objected to Moses, and God then commanded Moses to depart from the multitude. God then smote 14,700 men with plague, as punishment for objecting to Korah's destruction.
          <<

          David

          Kills 100 philistines as a wedding present…

          Here David goes out of his way to kill 100 philistines and then mutilates them. Those philistines were minding their own business and HE want out to KILL THEM.

          http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/18-25.htm

          >
          25Saul then said, "Thus you shall say to David, 'The king does not desire any dowry except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to take vengeance on the king's enemies.'"
          <<

          http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/david-buy…

          Elijah kills 40+ kids for calling him baldy

          https://bible.org/seriespage/4-elisha-and-two-bears-2-kings-…

          3 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

        • sintro on 18/08/2015 - 23:02

          @AusBargainhunter:

          Please recommend one that actually has information close to what I described above.

        • sintro on 18/08/2015 - 23:50

          @AusBargainhunter:

          You might want to read the whole 1st chapter. The "meaning" is more or less explained here "1:9-11 Men's hearts and their corruptions are the same now as in former times; their desires, and pursuits, and complaints, still the same.

          So here it tells you human beings are easily succumbed and ruled by their lower mind, reptilian brain or R-Complex.

          This should take us from expecting happiness in the creature, and quicken us to seek eternal blessings.

          Knowing this you should now be more conciously aware that you need to learn and understand the eternal laws of the universe. (The 8 principles I've listed out.)

          How many things and persons in Solomon's day were thought very great, yet there is no remembrance of them now!".

          Here Soloman being the Soul of Man, meaning the spiritual awareness and conciousness we once knew are now forgotten, dismissed as rabble and unimportant.

          This is purely due to the WILLFUL IGNORANACE of the masses in society today caused by the manipulative effects of all the mindless entertainment, erroneous belief based teachings of organised religions & new age religions, corporatation funded instiutionalised corrupt science, the coersive authority of government and the belief in money, which actually limit the potential of what an individual can do. All these control system are in place to keep you submissive, dumbed down, docile and struggling so you can't recognise and don't CARE about the TRUTH.

        • AusBargainhunter on 19/08/2015 - 00:38

          @sintro:

          I only read your first reply.

          The 8 key points in your comment I replied to are found in various teachings, maybe not in a single belief structure.

          Like I said not really interested in getting into a debate about such things.

          Most of the talk on this entire post (meaning everyone) is just filled with self serving existential nonsense.

        • sintro on 19/08/2015 - 08:37
          +1

          @AusBargainhunter:

          Most of the talk on this entire post (meaning everyone) is just filled with self serving existential nonsense.

          Most nonsense lie with in those who believe in SOLIPSISM. From the Latin adjective solus: "alone" and the Latin pronoun ipse: "self"

          The ideology that only one's own mind is sure to exist. Solipsists contend that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure, hene there is no such thing as objective truth, and nothing about the external world and it's workings can actually be known.

          This is the mindset the majority of people are in. They don't even know how to regcognise TRUTH.

          All I am saying is CARE about knowing the TRUTH, no matter how it may seem to you at the time.

          We need to stop making these belief based RELIGIONs as TRUTH and start making TRUTH the RELIGION.

          It is about SERVING TRUTH as is, take ACTION based on TRUTH without the bullshit.

        • AusBargainhunter on 19/08/2015 - 10:31

          @sintro:

          Yeah, I agree, totally.

        • sintro on 19/08/2015 - 11:13

          @AusBargainhunter:

          Great!
          Let's get back to hunting for a TRUE BARGAIN!

    • christopher8827 on 15/08/2015 - 19:46

      Actually Protestant Christians believe in that: Onced saved, always saved. Which is a ridiculous notion to me. Obviously, if one knows that the Truth lies in the Catholic Church and denies it they are damned. However, those who had no contact with the Faith or ever heard of it will unlikely be damned.

      The Catholic Church doesn't promote or support child abusers nor as sanctioned child abusers to be in its ranks - it has, like any other human institution, an incompetent clergy who made the wrong decisions, which lead to devastating consequences. Ie. read the Royal Commission on Child Abuse in Institutions.

      The Catholic laity have done what is possible to put those scum to justice. People can live a double-life, making it hard to sort the wolves from the flock.

      The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

      Catholics can lose their salvation by committing mortal sins, and salvation and justification, are recognised as one thing and that they are a on-going process.

      • sintro on 16/08/2015 - 00:54
        +2

        I hope you gained something from my previous posts to you. Do some research and don't be trapped in one mindset. Step back and take a good look.

        Don't support or belong to any organisation that tries cover up child abuse.

        http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/11/pope-complicit-…

        http://childabuserecovery.com/pope-francis-found-guilty-of-c…

        The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

        So how does this help guide your spiritual enlightenment?

        How does the Holy Spirit inspire you personally? Explain Holy Spirit.

        • christopher8827 on 16/08/2015 - 01:34

          It's pretty much biased news coverage

          How does the Holy Spirit inspire you? Does a voice boom from the sky, directing and intervening with every aspect of your life in violation of the free will principle?

        • belongsinforums on 16/08/2015 - 08:27

          @christopher8827: "Biased" news. Hehe, I'd love to hear a news source that isn't biased.

        • SlickMick on 16/08/2015 - 22:33

          The Holy Spirit is God's presence within the Christian. It is like I now have a super-charged conscious that, to the extent that I learn to use it, can make decisions as Jesus would,overruling what my human spirit would have me do.

        • SlickMick on 16/08/2015 - 22:35

          @christopher8827: no, you've missed the whole point of the NT.

        • sintro on 16/08/2015 - 22:56
          -2

          @christopher8827:
          I'm not interested in whether the news is biased or not. I'm only interested in the TRUTH of the matter. The TRUTH is bias and extreme that is what real journalists cover.

          You are Catholic and you cannot explain Holy Spirit clearly and what it means to you as a human being. The Trinity taught in all religious traditions actually teaches you the Expressions of Consciousness.

          How and what are the ways you can make yourself known to other human beings?
          How can any other being come to know who you are in this physical manifestation?

          It is done through Thoughts, Emotions, Actions
          or Mind, Body, Spirit.

          Father/Thoughts (Mind) - The creative force that is the expression for consciousness within the individual. For anything to manifest in the physical domain it has to first exist as a thought. This computer I'm typing on, somebody had to envision all the parts, how to put them together. The clothes I'm wearing, the seat I’m sitting on, everything that exist had to first exist in the realm of thought.

          Holy Spirit/Emotions (Spirit) - The feminine aspect of consciousness. Other people don't feel your emotions, they can perceive or sense them but you are the one that feel the emotions in your physiology, it's an internal expression. You feel emotions inwardly inside your physiology hence this is a feminine expression of consciousness it is not something that is externalised and put out, it's something that’s felt within.

          So the “emotions” in the mind- body-spirit connection are the Spirit in which we do something so that’s the feminine force or the spirit. Of course thoughts occur in our mind so that’s the mind component of the consciousness.

          Then there is a union between them so you can look at Thoughts as the creative essence which then blends with or marries to the feminine, this notion is taught in many religious traditions. It’s call the Trinity and you can look at the Trinity that exists in all the religions, you can go back to Babylon, Indus Valley, Egyptian or Christian traditions, every single religious tradition that has talked of a Trinity, it is always a Father creator, a sacred feminine figure of some kind that the father impregnate or inseminate in some form and then from that offspring is born a male child, the Son.

          What we are talking about here is the father being the mind (the creative essence) then the spirit or the emotions being the scared feminine essence or the Holy Spirit and then the male child is behavior, it is active or masculine principle that actually interact with the physical world to change it. And hence that is the only way to actually save ourselves. People in religious thinking will immediately attack this and say ‘You’re saying that saving ourselves will not come through Faith’. YES I AM. Saving ourselves will only come through ACTION. ACTION will save humanity, faith will not do it. Sorry to smash the egoic attachment that people have to religious notions but these religions are created by the control system. People don’t understand that exoteric Christianity are created by the ancient dark occult mystery schools, they don’t understand where this religion came from because they haven’t studied Astrotheolgy.

          I’m not telling you that there are no good concepts in any religion. I’ll say take all the good concepts and leave the NONSENSE. Because one of the nonsense is that you need to believe in something to be saved from the current human condition. You don’t need to believe in a thing, you need to KNOW the TRUTH and right in your own religion there it is! In the scripture, what is the one prescription that the Christ figure gives to the people when he is asked about freedom? He’s only been asked about freedom only once in the gospels, in the words attributed to his teachings. They wanted to know what will save us and what will make us free. And what was his prescription? Knowing the TRUTH will make you free.

          “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32

          Why do you think I’m spending my time and attention to explain all this to you?
          Because if you, my brother (and others), understand this simple Truth there will be more progress for the human condition to move towards true freedom then it would if I just hide this truth from you.

          Please think about the Trinity within you (Thoughts, Emotions and Action) when you reply to this or next time to go to church or pray.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 22:09

          @SlickMick: bold…VERY BOLD statement. I congratulate you on your bravery, but i think that is open to be challenged. I agree with the first part, but i think theres more to the Holy Spirit than your explanation. But i wont give you a hard time for it =)

        • SlickMick on 18/08/2015 - 13:18

          @nairdajun:
          Just trying to explain to a child what a spoon is for :)

        • christopher8827 on 24/08/2015 - 21:33
          +1

          @sintro:

          I call bullcrap on this Mind, Body, Spirit heresy that you're sprouting, which has no foundation in the early Church or the Church Fathers. The Catechism of the Catholic Church summaries the doctrine of the Trinity:

          1. "*The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the 'consubstantial Trinity'. [Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.] The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: 'The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.' [Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.] In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), 'Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.' [Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.]"

          2. "The Church uses (I) the term 'substance' (rendered also at times by 'essence' or 'nature') to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term 'person' or 'hypostasis' to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term 'relation' to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others."

          3. "Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (325) that the Son is 'consubstantial' with the Father, that is, one only God with him. [The English phrases 'of one being' and 'one in being' translate the Greek word homoousios, which was rendered in Latin by consubstantialis.] The second ecumenical council, held at Constantinople in 381, kept this expression in its formulation of the Nicene Creed and confessed 'the only- begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father'. [Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed; cf. DS 150.]"

          4. "The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): 'We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father.' [Nicene Creed; cf. DS 150.] By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as 'the source and origin of the whole divinity'. [Council of Toledo VI (638): DS 490.] But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: 'The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature… Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,… but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son.' [Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 527.] The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: 'With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified.' [Nicene Creed; cf. DS 150.]"

          5. "The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit 'proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)'. The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: 'The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration… And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.' [Council of Florence (1439): DS 1300-1301.]"

          "All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity." - St. Augustine of Hippo, "On The Trinity" 4th century A.D.

        • sintro on 24/08/2015 - 23:20
          -2

          @christopher8827:
          The Truth is clear and simple just like the Trinity as I explained to you. Common sense will tell you that how I explained it makes sense but not what you quoted.

          What you have quoted is the convoluted version of the same thing but without the crucial details for you to make true sense of it and take the correct actions.

          The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the 'consubstantial Trinity

          This is correct. To attain Mastery of one's own Consciousness, they need to be in a state where they can controls their own Thoughts, Emotions, & Actions by bringing them into Unity / Non-Contradiction / Non-Duality. This is called Unity Consciousness. ONE.

          Bro. Until you take in the Light you will never dispel the Darkness. And "The Light" is the "Knowledge of Truth".

          Next time when you PRAY, think of the relationship between your Thoughts, Emotions and Actions when you mumble to yourself "in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit" and how these three expressions of consciousness need to unite and work in harmony with nature in order to bring about positive ACTION and Change for yourself and the others. It is this interal Trinity within you that brings to you what you have prayed for.

          Do you get it?

        • christopher8827 on 24/08/2015 - 23:39

          @sintro:

          No, I don't think you get it. The three Persons of the Trinity are not 'expressions of consciousness'. The term 'person' or 'hypostasis' are to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them. It is used in the Trinitarian formula alongside with the sign of the cross:

          The Christian begins his day, his prayers, and his activities with the sign of the cross: “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God and calls on the Savior’s grace which lets him act in the Spirit as a child of the Father. The sign of the cross strengthens us in temptations and difficulties. (CCC 2157)

          The sign of the cross is closely tied to baptism. Jesus told the apostles, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).

          When Catholics are baptized “the sign of the cross, on the threshold of the celebration, marks with the imprint of Christ the one who is going to belong to him and signifies the grace of the Redemption Christ won for us by his cross” (CCC 1235).

        • sintro on 25/08/2015 - 00:36
          -2

          @christopher8827:

          No, I don't think you get it.

          I totally get it that you are trapped in your religion and can't just try to understand the inner workings of your human mind, body and spirit along side with you have been taught by the church. I think it'll be good for you to study other religions so that you can see how similar they all are. IT WILL SHOCK YOU.

          “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

          I don't think you understand what you are saying when you say, Amen.
          Amen RA, Amen/Amun/Amon is the name of the Egyptian SUN GOD RA.

          Also the Cross comes from the movement of the earth around the Sun and it represents the Equinoxes and the Solstices. See the image:
          https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/87/56/2d/8756…

          A real-life example:
          This is the stained glass window at Leonard's Church at Naremburn, NSW.
          http://oi60.tinypic.com/t0gntd.jpg

          There is a red SUN in the center and inside the SUN it reads "IHS" which is a monogram or a combination of letters that forms the abbreviation of the name Jesus Christ. The SUN/SON has twelve orange rays that represents the 12 disciples and the outer circle is also divided into twelve sections which represents the 12 signs of the zodiac that the SUN passes through each year.

          The Bible is not a religious book, it's a book of allegories for the microcosm - ancient psychology of the human mind explaining how higher conciousness can be achieved which is the actual teaching of Jesus and the macrocosm which is the movement of the Sun/Son (of GOD) across the sky throughout the year and if you take the scriptures in the Bible literally then it's like a children's story book with good moral teaches. I hope you have read that Christmas web link I posted previously http://www.jesusastrotheology.com/wintersoltice.htm.

          Your God was put together from stories of other Gods. Nothing about Christianity is its own such as holidays, traditions and even the deity was stolen.. it's a sham. Why do you think so many EDUCATED people left Christianity? It's because they read something other than the bible. Christianity is a cult because it teaches not to think for yourself. To blindly follow, do what they say or else. There is NO free will. A saviour that says follow me or burn does not offer free will. This is what is called Exoteric Christianity intended for and likely to be understood by the general public and popular among the general public. You are missing the knowledge from Esoteric Christianity which is intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with specialised knowledge or interest. What I am telling you about the Trinity is from the Esoteric knowledge.

          I'm not asking you to reject everything you've learnt about Catholicism or Christianity but to know that there is a lot more to it than what they can teach you. Time to move on and learn from others.

        • christopher8827 on 25/08/2015 - 15:27
          +1

          @sintro:

          I don't think you understand what you are saying when you say, Amen.
          Amen RA, Amen/Amun/Amon is the name of the Egyptian SUN GOD RA.

          Amen is a word that came to English from Latin, which got it from Greek, which got it from Aramaic, which got it from Hebrew (technically, Aramaic may have had it anyway, before it became the standard language of the Jewish people a few centuries before the time of Christ).

          It is difficult to translate this word directly, which is often a reason that words are borrowed from other languages (i.e., if there’s no direct way to translate this foreign word, just borrow it).

          The specific Hebrew word amen (’amen ) appears to be derived from a related verb—’aman , which means "he confirmed, supported, or upheld." This verb is also associated with the Hebrew word for truth (’emet ), which carries the idea of certainty or dependability (i.e., that which is true is that which is certain or dependable).

          ’Amen itself is an interjection used to agree with, affirm, approve, or emphasize something else that has been said. Thus when Jesus begins certain sayings by declaring "Amen, amen, I say to you … " various Bible translations often render the "amen, amen" different ways. Because of the word’s association with the Hebrew terms for truth, the double amen is sometimes rendered "truly, truly" or "verily, verily." Because of its association with the Hebrew terms for confirmation or dependability, one might also translate it "certainly, certainly" or "most assuredly."

          When one says "amen" in response to a prayer, it serves as an affirmation of agreement with the content of the prayer (cf. 1 Cor 14:16)—in which case it is sometimes translated "So be it" (cf. CCC 2856)—or as an expression of faith that God will hear and act on the prayer.

        • christopher8827 on 25/08/2015 - 15:32

          @sintro:

          The IHS monogram in the centre of the sun, was adopted by the St. Ignatius for the Jesuits.

          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Ihs-logo…

        • sintro on 25/08/2015 - 17:49
          -1

          @christopher8827:

          Amen is a word that came to English from Latin, which got it from Greek, which got it from Aramaic, which got it from Hebrew

          You stopped it a bit short bro.
          …which got it from Hebrew, which it got from Egyptian.

          Etymologically, the word’s root is Hebrew in origin, with its use spreading to eventually encompass Christianity and Islam. Amen is found in the Bible, of course, but also in the Quran and in Hinduism. Amen is a shared response to liturgical rites and a means of affirming sacred scripture. Beyond Judaism, in the fading mists of early history, the word can be traced to ancient Egypt and a particular line of pharaohs, that of the Amun or Amen –hotep lineage.

          It is common to end a discourse on spiritual matters, (or end a prayer) with (the word) "Amen". Few of us realise that the word "Amen" is an Egyptian word. It refers to the Egyptian god of Thebes. The Hebrews adopted the word and it passed into Christian use as "Amen". It is a petition for (the god – Amen) to fulfill our words.

        • sintro on 25/08/2015 - 18:40
          -1

          @christopher8827:

          The IHS monogram in the centre of the sun

          Yes, that's it. So the monogram of Jesus is in the center of the sun.
          What is it doing on a stained window at Leonard's Church at Naremburn, NSW?

          It's telling you Jesus represents the SUN so pay more attention to the SUN of GOD and it's relationship to earth and all living things. Next time when you eat, give thanks to the SUN which brings light energy to the Earth to grow your FOOD that you eat.

          • The sun “dies” for three days at the winter solstice, to be born again on December 25th.

          • The Sun of God is “born of a virgin,” which refers to both the new or "virgin” moon and the constellation of Virgo.

          • The “Sun of God” wears a corona, a “crown of thorns,” or halo.

          Please look out for solar symbolisms next time you go to church.
          Just give it some consideration, PLEASE.

      • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 18:45
        +1

        First of all your lying when you say the Protestant position on salvation is Anything. There is no single Protestant church, but tens of thousands, each with their own made up beliefs on many matters. This possible because they are all lying and interpreting what bible Texts they choose to select.

        Every single xian church is basically calling all other churches liars that's why somebody went and started their own church. In fact a few hundred years ago xians were killing all other xians becAuse they were in the wrong church. It was the same situation as what we see in the Middle East with one Muslim faction killing the other ones.

      • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 22:22
        +1

        I would challenge your last statement.

        If we are saved by Christ's grace alone (as a gift of salvation), and through faith (us believing that we have received the gift of salvation) and not by works (by any effort of our own striving), then by association we CANNOT lose our salvation by committing mortal sins.

        If we are saved through effort, we need to make constant striving for effort to maintain our salvation. (in support of your last point). But if we are saved by grace, through faith…then we cant win or lose our salvation…

        Have a think about that and what that implies :)

        Am I saying that a person who has committed atrocities in his lifetime and genuinely received Christ on his deathbed and asked for God to forgive him for his sins will be forgiven and be with God?
        YES based on my understanding, most likely he will. Is it fair? No it isnt, but thats not really the point. Salvation is a gift from God, and no matter how much i or anyone complains of what the man did in his lifetime, does not give me the right to give a gift that does not belong to me.

        Does that mean that someone who accepted Christ and then turned away from him and forsook him will be with Jesus when he dies? Not sure…because it says "i will forsake him who forsakes me".

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 00:26

          Am I saying that a person who has committed atrocities in his lifetime and genuinely received Christ on his deathbed and asked for God to forgive him for his sins will be forgiven and be with God?

          Do you realise how disgusting this concept is…

          What a stupid concept you can rape little kids but if you say you believe in jesus all is forgiven.No wonder xian churches are filled with pedophilia.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 18/08/2015 - 00:54
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents:

          Thats why the gospel is offensive. Especially to people like you.

          You dont want to hear that all sins/wrongs are equal.
          You dont want to hear that rape is just as bad as theft..only rape is more psychologically damaging.
          You dont want to hear that theres nothing you can do to redeem yourself from your wrongs.
          You dont want to hear that someone had to die so that you could have a chance of forgiveness.
          You dont think its fair that someone who spent most of his life doing bad things can go to heaven if he is truly repentant of his life, and seeks redemption and forgiveness.
          And you dont agree that there is a God who is more concerned about the wellbeing of each individual soul than what each person thinks is "fair".

          Im so glad that he operates that way and not based on individual whims and whinges. Because it means people that i dont agree with dont have to suffer hell.

        • ninetyNineCents on 18/08/2015 - 11:21

          @nairdajun:

          hats why the gospel is offensive. Especially to people like you.

          Yes im a bad person because i say slavery and raping women is bad, unlike YOUR bible authors.

          You dont want to hear that all sins/wrongs are equal.

          Big words from someone whose source of morality thinks slavery and rape are fine.

          You dont want to hear that rape is just as bad as theft..only rape is more psychologically damaging.

          I said in the beginning rapists should be in jail, so women get protection from monsters like that. YOUR BIBLE says they get the benefit of BUYING the victim.

          Its these sorts of attitudes that make the MIDDLE EAST the shithole that it is today. The mid east is a terrible place for women BECAUSE they are following the same attitudes and laws as the ones i have pinpointed.

          You dont think its fair that someone who spent most of his life doing bad things can go to heaven if he is truly repentant of his life, and seeks redemption and forgiveness.

          No they dont. SOmeone who kills, rapes and hurts people has gone beyond forgiveness.

          Would you let a pedophile work in your local preschool ? Of course you wouldnt… they have crossed the boundary, they only deserve jail time.

          And you dont agree that there is a God who is more concerned about the wellbeing of each individual soul than what each person thinks is "fair".

          God doesnt care about me or you. The entire bible was given ONLY TO JEWS. Jesus and the apostles only preached in ISRAEL. The apostle Peter and James had arguments with Paul that it was wrong for Paul to preach to gentiles.

          If it wasnt for Paul the bible would have remained ONLY FOR THE JEWS. What kind of idiotic statement is it to then say God loves everyone when he cant be bothered from Moses to Jesus to share his message with EVERYONE.

          Just look at the absuridy of Paul and his work. Here we have an ordinary man who tells Jesus that he is wrong and he wants to preach to non jews. The irony…

          Im so glad that he operates that way and not based on individual whims and whinges. Because it means people that i dont agree with dont have to suffer hell.

          And yet he constantly talks ONLY to kings and high priests. Still waiting for you to show me to be wrong on this, but you cant so you dont try.

          So why does your god only talk to kings and high priests in the OT and NOT ONCE does he talk to a nobody…

    • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 09:25

      The Catholic Church allows their pedi priests because they know there is no God. They only hide their fellow criminals from the real police in countries like our own.

      If there really was a god, shouldn't they stop simply by pure fear of his judgement ?

      They are by their actions admitting there is no God.

      • sintro on 16/08/2015 - 23:13

        They are by their actions admitting there is no God.

        It shows that they have no moral understanding of the distinction between right or wrong behaviour and there is not a place called heaven or hell that you go to after death.

        They ARE the ones manifesting the condition on Earth called Hell.

        • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 23:57
          +1

          You completely missed the point of my statement.

          All xian churches only hide their crimes from the police, because they are real and they know jail is a real punishment. None of them seem to be worried at all about God who supposedly sees all.

          Hell or gods judgement doesn't worry all those Churches, they are only worried about the police and jail because they are real.

          You might also want to check your bible. No where does it say pedophilia is wrong. How could God think writing stupid laws about shaving beards is wrong but forget something truely important like pedophilia ..?

  • [Deactivated] on 15/08/2015 - 13:48
    +2

    Two obvious flaws in O.P.'s comments:

    1. Had these comments been anti-Jew as they are anti-Christian, O.P. would have been accused of anti-semitism. Unfortunately no such legal/social protection is available for Christians.

    2. There is no comment by O.P. regarding other religions imposing themselves at uni., e.g. muslim prayer rooms and female only areas. Again, unfortunately Christians have not been provided with areas for their exclusive use.

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