Evangelism at uni? Acceptable or not?

financialwar on 11/08/2015 - 19:00
Last edited 11/08/2015 - 19:46

University should a place of learning, knowledge and reasoning. But at Macquarie University, evangelical Christians are very active, they do this by writing christian and jesus crap everywhere on uni ground in chalk, display jesus loves you signs etc. Christians are the ones that does this, no other religion preaches.

http://www.christianunion.org.au/, the group is funded by https://www.afes.org.au/about

Whose goals are

<i>The Fellowship
AFES employs staff to help and encourage students in their Christian growth and witness, and has student groups on campuses in every state and territory in Australia. Groups hold a variety of activities, such as regular public Bible talks, smaller Bible studies, prayer groups, mid-year conferences and outreach events.

AFES provides materials to students for evangelism and Bible study, and releases various publications such as Salt Magazine and the email prayer resource, Prayernet.

The Vision
Proclaiming Jesus Christ at university to present everyone mature in Him.

The Mission
To promote the mission of Christ in Australian universities by building evangelical student groups that:

evangelise students by proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord
encourage growth toward maturity in Christ
train students in the skills and character to serve Jesus and his people
send graduates throughout Australia and the world to serve Christ
</i>

Do you think this acceptable on a University ground?

Poll Options

  • 248
    appropriate
  • 296
    not appropriate
  • 67
    Should be banned
Education & Work

Comments

    • infinite on 14/08/2015 - 14:35

      This one is flying over the heads of most in here, without a doubt.

  • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2015 - 10:54
    +1

    Do it to yourself if you think it makes you a better person! Don't use it to oppress another person!!!!!

  • Bunnyburger on 14/08/2015 - 11:05
    +2

    Fornicators! Yer all fornicators!

    • financialwar on 14/08/2015 - 13:20

      I'm going to fornicate in a church

      • infinite on 14/08/2015 - 14:36
        +4

        You'll make a great alter boy then.

      • AussieDolphin on 15/08/2015 - 08:47
        +2

        @financialwar - Seriously? You may not agree with Christianity and that is your choice. There's no need to be degrading about it!

      • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 15/08/2015 - 22:09

        There is a deity for that, its called the Goddess of Fertility….or Aphrodite to the greeks. Go find a temple of aphrodite

  • ChickenTalon on 14/08/2015 - 11:12
    +4

    well, at Macquarie you used to be able to do christian studies and get credit points towards your bachelor arts degree.
    Macquarie Christian Studies Institute
    https://mypassword.mq.edu.au/directory/index.php?Anchor=&typ…

    not sure if this is the case anymore, as their website seems like it has been taken down, but it was in the early 2000s.

    University, I don't really have such a problem with. But our government FUNDING churches to go into schools and teach very impressionable young kids there is some sky man sending people to heaven and hell… that's a much bigger travesty.

  • Cluster on 14/08/2015 - 12:31

    I think it's perfectly fine for religious groups to preach their views on campus as long as they're not hateful towards another religion or group. Things like 'join us or burn in Hell' would be inappropriate but 'Jesus saves, go to Heaven' would be fine.

    The one other interesting area I'd like to mention is preaching by deception. At Uni many years ago I saw a poster proclaiming that one lunch time there would be a forum with people who have seen real life extra terrestrials. There was a picture of a stereotypical UFO on the poster. Now, one would assume this meant aliens as in 'ET phone home'.

    Out of curiousity to see who would turn up, I attended the forum. It soon became clear it was organised by a campus Christian group who rounded up various former drug addicts and alcoholics (by their own admission) who were down and out and suddenly saw a (Christian) angel who turned their lives around. That to me was deceptive.

  • DealzEddy123 on 14/08/2015 - 13:13
    +2

    i think you can refrain from using the word "crap" and just use "stuff". it's more polite (im not Christian but just saying)

  • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2015 - 14:26

    The university of sydney has a large evangelical community which includes staff and students. We also have a large amount of liberal voters. Nothing has gone wrong and it is perfectly acceptable. I am not religious.

  • HugoHugo on 14/08/2015 - 17:21
    +6

    Ignore them and move on. Evangelical Christians are harmless compared to some of
    the other mobs actively recruiting out there. I'm an Atheist myself but I'd much prefer
    the weak willed spiritually empty lost souls being swept up in the relative benign teachings
    of Christ than other more destructive organisations.

  • Mysterious Laptop on 14/08/2015 - 22:23
    +4

    I don't think it's any different from the long hair bearded dude in front of the library at UNSW handing out "F*#K TONY ABBOTT" flyers.

    free speech baby

  • sintro on 14/08/2015 - 22:47
    -3

    Christianity is nothing more than a Solar Cult/Sun worshiping religion.

    Next time they mention Jesus, the SUN of GOD. Tell them to look up at the Sun, the light of truth, learn the truth or shut the f**k up.

    Since Christmas is approaching, it might be handy to know the real resaon behind the celebration on Decemeber 25th (Winter Solstice for the Northern Hemisphere) http://jesusastrotheology.com/wintersoltice.htm

    Once you understand this, you appreciate nature more… and understand why you give thanks to the SUN and the energy used to create the food that you eat everyday!

  • Thaal Sinestro on 14/08/2015 - 22:52

    There is far more leftist indoctrination at universities than Christianity (especially in humanities), but I don't hear the atheists complaining about that. Atheist = left winger. All Communist societies have been extremely hostile to religion.

    Atheists are on the losing side anyway. Islam will take over the world. By 2020, over 50% of children born in the world will be Muslims, and they never convert away from Islam or become atheists. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim. Atheists don't breed, whereas devoutly religious people are extremely fertile.

    • sintro on 14/08/2015 - 23:25
      +1

      The term 'Religion' which comes from the Latin verb religare:
      "to tie back; to hold back; to thwart from forward progress; to bind."

      A system of CONTROL based in unchallenged, dogmatic BELIEF which holds back the progress of Consciousness.

      The biggest religion of all is money… close to 100% will be born into this religion.

    • belongsinforums on 15/08/2015 - 20:25

      I don't believe in any zombie fairies, and am not a leftist

    • jackdao on 16/08/2015 - 14:45

      That's why we have been working hard in order to create automatic bots more and more that target those who are related to religion and then pull the trigger.

  • KaTst3R on 14/08/2015 - 23:03

    Sometimes those Christians are so active (aggressive), it feels like an MLM entity…

    • sintro on 14/08/2015 - 23:11
      -4

      Christianity made matters even worse by pretending that Jesus was a human being, while in reality Jesus is a personification of the Sun God. In reality, Christianity is therefore the religion of the sun Helios. That is why believers in Christianity obediently go to church on Sunday. The word “church” is a reference to Circe or Kirke, the Greek goddess of magic. The words for “church” in several languages clearly show this reference: circe (Scottish), chiesa (Italian), Kirche (German), and kerk (Dutch). All churches are deliberately created in order to be able to magically befool ignorant believers.

      • KaTst3R on 15/08/2015 - 00:07

        Ok I wont go so far to the extend of what you said, but we all know in our hearts some (not all) of them have been way too obsessed.

      • christopher8827 on 15/08/2015 - 00:18

        Okay bro. We have heard your theory of Christianity already. However, archaeological and historical points otherwise that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and in fact, no academic scholar would believe that Jesus as a person didn't exist in history.

        Some Protestant Churches may have questionable motives.

        But the Catholic Church, with all its warts and flaws, genuinely believes what it teaches - it doesn't take much to realise in the past 2000 years, Catholics have contributed greatly to architecture, arts, science, philosophy - it also has survived the rise and fall of entire civilizations/governments.

        • sintro on 15/08/2015 - 01:50
          -4

          Of course they genuinely believe what they teach, it is a system of CONTROL based in unchallenged, dogmatic BELIEF which holds back the progress of Consciousness.

          And they can't even get this right…

          Luke 6:46 Why do you call me Lord and not do what I tell you to do.

          In other words, if Christians were really following Jesus as Lord, they would do what he said to do, and they would find the way, the truth and a new life.

          It's one thing to say Jesus is Lord.
          It's another thing to do what he says to do, which would make him Lord.

          DID JESUS SAY TO GO TO CHURCH ? NO

          Do Christians Say Go To Church? YES

          DID JESUS SAY TO ASK HIM TO COME INTO YOUR HEART? NO

          Do Christians Say To Ask Him To Come Into Your Heart? Yes

          DID JESUS SAY TO ASK HIM TO BE YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR? NO

          Do Chistians say to ask Jesus to be your personal savior? Yes

          DID JESUS SAY TO BELIEVE THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD? NO

          Do Christians say to believe that God raised him from the dead? Yes

          DID JESUS SAY TO LOOK INSIDE OF YOURSELF TO FIND GOD? YES

          Do Christians say to look inside of yourself to find God? No

          DID JESUS SAY TO STIMULATE THE PINEAL GLAND/SINGLE EYE OF YOUR BRAIN? YES

          Do Christians say to stimulate the pineal gland/single eye of your brain No

          DID JESUS SAY TO SEPARATE FROM THE THOUGHTS OF YOUR MIND? YES

          Do Christians say to separate from the thoughts of your mind No

          DID JESUS SAY YOU TAKE AWAY THE KEY OF KNOWLEDGE BY NOT ENTERING WITHIN YOURSELF? YES

          Do Christians say you take away the key of knowledge by not entering within yourself? No

          This way they don't teach you the truth and you won't question anything…

          Do your own research and find the truth - it's the science of the macrocosm and the microcosm! It's game over for them, you'll learn more outside the church for sure.

          I'll leave it here, message me if you want to discuss.

        • SlickMick on 15/08/2015 - 10:19
          +3

          @sintro: I think you need to replace "Do Christians say" with "Does <the organisation that hurt me> say"

        • sintro on 15/08/2015 - 11:38
          -2

          @SlickMick:

          +1 Yes. You have a good point.

          Enough with these Organised Religions.

          Bring on the OzBargain spirit and stop spending Time, paying Attention and giving Money to these Organised Religions for Spiritual Science and Truth that is supposed to be FREE for all!

        • christopher8827 on 15/08/2015 - 11:46
          +1

          @sintro:

          Is this supposed to be about Sola Scriptura? Because it's circular reasoning to attempt to interpret the Bible using the Bible itself, and it is the number one error of Protestant Christians. Jesus doesn't need to mention EVERYTHING to formulate the faith.

          That's why Sacred Tradition comes into play for Catholics - the Deposit of Faith is passed through the living witness of the Church since the time of the Apostles. The Biblical canon, finalised in the First Council of Nicaea in 325AD, only reduces a portion of Sacred Tradition into writing.

        • christopher8827 on 15/08/2015 - 11:49

          @sintro:

          But what is Truth?

          All religions contain elements of Truth, but does the Catholic Faith present the Truth without error?

          Truth can't be discerned by scientific tests.

          Truth is not relative, although it can be distorted. For example, murder is seen as evil by all societies.

        • sintro on 15/08/2015 - 12:46

          @christopher8827:
          No, it's not about Sola Scriptura.

          Jesus doesn't need to mention EVERYTHING to formulate the faith.

          I was only pointing out what -he- did mention and what christians tend to be told to do the opposite.

          History Lesson:

          • The first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea.

          • About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 686, vol. i, p. 598)

          • The Church admits that vital elements of the proceedings at Nicaea are "strangely absent from the canons" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 160).

          • Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling
            factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter… For one year and five months the balloting lasted…" (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).

          • Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God.
            …
            That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

        • sintro on 15/08/2015 - 12:55

          @christopher8827:

          TRUTH is OBJECTIVE meaning that it is NOT based on the perceptions of human beings (which is capable of wavering). Truth is simply that which is. It is that which has occurred in the past and that which is occuring in the present.

          Think about these two quotes:

          "I've come to relise that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are complusively filtered through the screen mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true." - Travis Walton

          .

          "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what is not true; the other is to refuse to accept what is true." - Soren Kierkegaard

        • Diji1 on 15/08/2015 - 18:21
          +6

          @sintro: You do realise you're ranting like a complete lunatic about religion being made up by making up stories about what Jesus said.

          This is after paraphrasing Peter Joseph and claiming that Jesus didn't exist LOL.

          I mean you come across as more raving nutty than the religious nuts.

        • belongsinforums on 15/08/2015 - 20:23

          @Diji1: people are brought up to believe Jesus was real. It is therefore very difficult for people to consider that he's as fictional as the gods themselves

        • christopher8827 on 15/08/2015 - 21:26
          +1

          @tomkun01:

          Yes, yes. The Apostles literally died for a faith they made up themselves. /sarcasm

          http://actsapologist.blogspot.com.au/2015/08/if-jesus-was-my…

        • belongsinforums on 15/08/2015 - 21:46

          @christopher8827: its OK. Star wars episode 7 is coming and I'll be able to see Yoda again. I saw him before so I know he's real

        • sintro on 16/08/2015 - 00:14
          -2

          @Diji1:

          I know the TRUTH is hard to accept and seem crazy.

          Do I really need to give you the exact quotes from the bible? Read it for yourself.

          DID JESUS SAY TO LOOK INSIDE OF YOURSELF TO FIND GOD? YES
          Do Christians say to look inside of yourself to find God? No

          Luke 17:21 "The Kingdom of God is within you"

          DID JESUS SAY TO STIMULATE THE PINEAL GLAND/SINGLE EYE OF YOUR BRAIN? YES
          Do Christians say to stimulate the pineal gland/single eye of your brain? No

          "And Jacob called the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen 32:30).

          "…The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” (Matthew 6:22).

          Do some study yourself. If you are interested in knowing truth send me a message. Otherwise just be willfully ignorant and go watch some TV.

        • tryagain on 16/08/2015 - 09:52
          +5

          @tomkun01: Show me one full Professor of Ancient History at an accredited uni who thinks Jesus didn't exist. You should be able to provide me with a exhaustive list if he didn't but I doubt you will even find one. As you say its hard for people to believe that he didn't exist not just because they were bought up that way but because that's what all the credible evidence points too.

        • belongsinforums on 16/08/2015 - 11:20

          @tryagain: "thinks". lel

        • tryagain on 16/08/2015 - 18:18

          @tomkun01:

          "thinks". lel

          ???

        • belongsinforums on 16/08/2015 - 18:21

          @tryagain: You're right - the shroud of turin is evidence enough of our lord and saviour

        • tryagain on 16/08/2015 - 18:53
          +2

          @tomkun01: 1 Professor is a pretty low bar, but you can't even make that can you. Saying Jesus didn't exist I think puts you in the tin foil hat brigade. I would test a bit harder any other claim's from the same source as it simply isn't supported by the evidence.

        • belongsinforums on 16/08/2015 - 19:30

          @tryagain: neither is Jesus' status as a supernatural being, but that doesn't stop millions from believing it. Belief and "what people think" doesn't mean jack to me.

        • tryagain on 16/08/2015 - 19:35
          +4

          @tomkun01:

          Belief and "what people think" doesn't mean jack to me

          Either does evidence by the sounds of it.

        • SlickMick on 16/08/2015 - 22:39

          @sintro:
          BTW, this was the start of the dark ages, not the church.

        • sintro on 16/08/2015 - 22:55

          @SlickMick:
          What are you trying to say? What are you referring to?

        • belongsinforums on 17/08/2015 - 17:35
          -1

          @tryagain: the only evidence you've mentioned is the bible - a book about anti-homo flying wizards

        • tryagain on 17/08/2015 - 20:53
          +2

          @tomkun01: I haven't mentioned any evidence (put the tin foil hat down and step away), all I have said is find me just 1 full Professor of Ancient History at an accredited uni who thinks Jesus didn't exist. If your claim that Jesus didn't exist had even the slightest shred of credibility you would be able to provide me with a list but alas not one yet.

        • belongsinforums on 17/08/2015 - 21:04

          @tryagain: so what evidence do you speak of? the big problem is that the bible is used to prove the bible itself. there is no strong evidence that confirms jesus' existence, nor, as you point out, disproves his existence.

        • tryagain on 17/08/2015 - 21:59
          +1

          @tomkun01: There is plenty of evidence out there and probably 100 x more mis-information. I am yet to see a expert in the field (ie The professors in achient history I seek) Have any serious doubts, just plenty of internet hacks with an axe to grind. The issue with taking these hack's at face value is then you go online repeating their claims and you are made to look foolish because the expert's just don't agree.

          the bible is used to prove the bible

          Yes and Science is used to prove science, Logic is used to prove logic and reason is used to prove reason. Who would have thought that Historical documents are used to prove history. Amazing hey

        • belongsinforums on 17/08/2015 - 22:16

          @tryagain: and the bible is used to prove that wizards exist

        • tryagain on 17/08/2015 - 22:40
          +1

          @tomkun01:

          bible is used to prove that wizards exist

          Does it or it is just something else you have read but not actually tested (you don't have to answer Im almost certain the later is true).

          You do realize that all your talk about wizard's does actually make you come across as being at least a bit nutty.

        • belongsinforums on 18/08/2015 - 05:54

          @tryagain: Mentioned it before, but I was raised catholic. ive done my hard yards in churches and catholic schools. that's probably why im so nutty

  • definitive on 15/08/2015 - 13:29

    Evangelism you say?

    • sintro on 15/08/2015 - 14:20

      broken link

  • nickster9999 on 15/08/2015 - 13:37
    +3

    These people literally believe they are saving your life. Christians LITERALLY believe that you can only be saved if you accept Jesus, and if you don't accept Jesus, you will burn and suffer in pain and agony forever and ever until the end of time.

    This is why they feel it's ok to evangelise and do all that stuff at the university.

    This blind faith about salvation is the reason why the Catholic Church has supported and promoted child rapist priests. A priest is spreading the word of God at the highest level, therefore the Priest is literally saving lives, and so if he rapes some kids, then that's just collateral damage. Imagine if you found out that the upper levels of management at your university were, for years and years, allowing child rapist lecturers to continue teaching, and promoting them, and not telling the police? I bet half the uni students would be protesting outside the university until was action was taken. So why don't we see protests outside Catholic Church headquarters anywhere in the world? Why aren't Catholics the world over writing en masse to the Vatican demanding action?

    Think of like this: have you ever worked somewhere where there is an employee who is a prick to everyone, but is a high performer? The boss lets them get away with a lot of stuff because he/she is a high performer. Think of all the football players and rockstars that have killed, raped or beaten up women. If they were anyone else we would abandon them, but so many forgive them because of their high status in society. Then take this to the next level, where you have a Priest who, according to the Catholic Church, has a connection directly to God, and is literally helping save the lives of sinners here on earth. What could possibly be too much of a cost to ensure that the word of God is spread? Nothing. Not even the raping of little boys and girls. This is why the Catholic Church has gotten away with it for so long. And it is this general idea why you have Bible bashers at your university.

    • Diji1 on 15/08/2015 - 18:07

      Christians LITERALLY believe

      Hardly any christians LITERALLY believe that you idjit.

      • belongsinforums on 15/08/2015 - 20:18
        +1

        Then they're all sinners

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 15/08/2015 - 23:24
          +5

          Yes even christians are sinners, we dont dispute that fact. But we dont believe that "we" are saving anyones life. We cant "save" anyones life, because we believe that only Jesus can. So we want to pique people's interest to discover what Jesus was all about.

          Now what nick is saying above is only half true. I hope i dont offend anyone by saying this, but the Catholic church originally used the message of the gospel to control the people. That is why the copies of scriptures available to the Roman Catholics were all in Latin, and Latin was phased out as a language. Since Latin was the most difficult language to learn, only the elite could read the scriptures, and interpret them. They skewed the message of the gospel to enforce a "new flavour" or a Temple model of religion, where people go to holy places, to hear holy men read from holy scriptures. All this model was dependent on going to one place, to hear from one man, who "heard" from one god.

          However when Jesus came he wanted to enforce the fact that we could all have individual personal relationships with God without going through a priest (if you have a good understanding of the letters from Paul, this will ring true). This lead to an eventual challenging of the Roman Catholic Church, and you had a split of denominations (protestant, methodist, etc).This was around the time of Martin Luther King (who was involved in translating the Latin Bible to the King James Version).

          On one hand you have people wanting to use Jesus and God to control the people, on the other hand you have several individuals who understood that when Jesus came and died, we no longer needed a "priest" to advocate for us.

          I think it unwise to assume all christians believe the same thing about everything, and that all christians are like roman catholics. Breaking it down, true christians believe in few things in common. 1) Jesus is the son of God (and is also God), 2) we are sinners in need of a saviour, and 3) Jesus died for our sins and rose again. Those three basic assumptions is what defines whether someone is christian or not, anything else that is extra to that are just denominational differences.

        • christopher8827 on 16/08/2015 - 00:17
          +1

          @nairdajun:

          I will take the bait… Catholics didn't use the Scriptures to 'control' people because they were using Latin. The Roman Empire at the time used Latin as their main language. In the 4th Century, the Catholic Church translated the Greek version of the Bible, the Septuagint (from the 2nd century), into the Vulgate.

          Latin was used in the Mass for centuries because it is the official language of the Church. Cardinal Arinze says that Latin "suits a Church that is universal. It has a stability modern languages don’t have … ". The Catholic Church, being 20 centuries old, needs to ensure that a semantic shift in languages are prevented so that the meaning behind the words remains the same, throughout history.

          The problem with your three points in 'common,' is that they tell very little of what Christians believe in. How can Protestantism be true if there are thousands of denominations divided within themselves, so much that they contradict each other on matters of salvation & the faith?

          There are four marks from Scripture & the Ecumenical council Councils to determine the true Church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Marks_of_the_Church#Marks

        • christopher8827 on 16/08/2015 - 00:20

          @nairdajun:

          We want a Church that moves the world, not the other way around.

          "O Catholic faith, how solid, how strong you are! How deeply rooted, how firmly founded on a solid rock! Heaven and earth will pass away, but you can never pass away. From the beginning the whole world opposed you, but you mightily triumphed over everything. This is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. It has subjected powerful kings to the rule of Christ; it has bound nations to his service.

          What made the holy apostles and martyrs endure fierce agony and bitter torments, except faith, and especially faith in the resurrection?

          What is it that today makes true followers of Christ cast luxuries aside, leave pleasures behind, and endure difficulties and pain? It is living faith that expresses itself through love. It is this that makes us put aside the goods of the present in the hope of future goods. It is because of faith that we exchange the present for the future.”

          ~ St. Fidelis of Sigmaringen

        • belongsinforums on 16/08/2015 - 08:26
          +1

          @nairdajun: The main problem with your story is that you're mixing history with religion. The bible is not a factual historical text. It's a bit like mixing dinosaurs (proven by the existence of fossils documented in peer-reviewed papers) with Little Red Riding Hood (a children's book).

        • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 09:22

          @nairdajun:

          Do you realise how evil the idea of Jesus death is ?

          The story is one of utter cruelty and sadness. A father (God) forced himself to offer his son (Jesus) to die a painful death to pay himself back because other Middle Eastern cultures thought human sacrifice was a good thing,

          God could have just forgiven everything, there is nothing forcing him to make or let Jesus die.

        • nickster9999 on 16/08/2015 - 16:50

          @nairdajun:

          Hi nairdajun

          Can I ask a question please? If I do not accept Jesus is the Son of God, what will happen to me?

          Will I go to Hell? If so, can you describe Hell to me?

          Will I still go to Heaven?

          Will something else happen?

        • nickster9999 on 16/08/2015 - 16:55

          @ninetyNineCents:

          ninetyNineCents it's not just evil, it's bizarre.

          You mentioned "A father (God) forced himself to offer his son (Jesus) to die a painful death". It's actually this:

          God actually sacrificed himself to himself to act as a loophole for a rule he made himself.

          And for an eternal being, dying for three days is not much of a sacrifice.

        • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 17:53

          @nickster9999:

          First of all, there is no text in the bible that says there is a trinity. In fact Jesus is not mentioned ONcE by name or title or anything in the OT? Feel free to quote…

          Secondly the reason I say it's evil is because of the example it sets. Nobody should think that human sacrifice is in anyway acceptable for any reason. We don't praise suicide bombers , so we shouldn't say the same for Jesus suicide self imposed or ordered.

          Jesus death given it was voluntary is pure evil. God could have just forgiven without the death, that makes it pure evil.

        • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 19:27

          @christopher8827:

          The Catholic Church wants supreme control because it's an instrument of kings. The pope today still calls himself a prince. The word basilica means king in Greek. The titles, clothing and customs of the church are those of a king who wants to rule.

          In old Europe the pope was above the Christian kings. If you don't believe me, just look how the pope ordered the crusades or divided the world between Portugal and Spain in the treaty of torsidillas not long after Columbus.

          The bible itself is written almost exclusively by kings, high priest who are both political leaders. These are not humble nobodies, they all want power and basically do t give a shit about anyone but themselves.

          Feel free to go thru starting at genesis and list all the bible authors, I challenge you to find a poor nobody who helps he poor. They are all aresholes, rich. And powerful who kill and lie just Mohammad and his descendants.

        • nickster9999 on 16/08/2015 - 20:01

          @ninetyNineCents:

          I totally agree with you. "God could have just forgiven without the death, that makes it pure evil." Spot on. God created a rule, and then killed himself to save himself from the rule that he created in the first place. How messed up is that? He chose to kill himself.

        • ninetyNineCents on 16/08/2015 - 20:06

          @nickster9999:

          Your assuming that there is a god. All ancient kings claimed to be representatives of God. The pharaohs claimed to be sons of Horus etc, and so did the Jewish kings. Even our queen claims the she rules as a proxy for God, go check her coat of arms.

          It's the oldest con in human history. All OT books are written by kings and high priests the two co rulers of ancient Israel.

        • SlickMick on 16/08/2015 - 22:27
          +1

          @christopher8827:
          You should look into what nairdajun said (if you want to know) - it's pretty fundamental stuff of the reformation. Catholics used Latin, the people couldn't read Latin. The printing press was invented, bibles started being published in languages people could understand, Catholics burned them (usually with a Protestant tied to a stake in the midst).

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 00:52
          +1

          @christopher8827: Thanks for your information. I dont really know all the information, but what i do know i have tried to make sense of.
          According to my understanding Emperor Constantine became a christian, but was not a theologian. Therefore he gathered people who would help him make Christianity the official religion of the Romans. These people then formed the Papal system and the college of cardinals. It was over time that these individuals decided that they were the "chosen" ones of God, and that they had authority over the Word, and that somehow people required to confess their sins to the Pope or the minister to have their sins forgiven. Over time these people became obsessed with the power that was "granted" to them, and soon corruption ensued.

          The reason i make the 3 points in common is that if you look through Pauls letter to the galatians was that the Jews (who became christians) wanted to force the gentile christians to become Jews through circumcision. Paul was very aggressive in strong language against the Galatians because he viewed their attempts to conform the gentiles to the Jewish traditions as "corrupting the gospel". Which then Paul wanted them to focus on the basics (i.e. the 3 main points of christianity). You could say that if the Jewish tradition of circumcision caught on, that would be another "denomination". THat in order for one to become christian, they must also become Jewish.

          That is why as long as someone believes that Jesus came from the Father to die for our sins, and rose again to give us eternal life. They are saved, and become children of God.

          feel free to pick at my argument if theres any inconsistencies you see

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 01:04
          +2

          @tomkun01: I would be interested to know why you believe that to be the case. Because how i see it, the Bible is a collection of scriptures written by many different authors. It is a collection of "books" or "scrolls" if you will.

          Many of the accounts of the Old Testament actually align with actual events that happened in history. Jericho for example was destroyed, so was Soddom and Gamorrah. The accounts of Jesus also involve characters in history such as Pontious Pilate, King Herod, King Agrippa, and Caesar. No historians doubt the existence of these people.

          If you then want to make the case that the Bible is not a factual historic text, you are effectively saying that the authors of the books of the bible are just fancy storytellers, and their literary accounts of what they saw is nothing but false. The danger there is that you are questioning the credibility of all the authors of those books, and must include the possibility that every text in human history could be fabricated nonsense. Because you cannot say that because the eyewitness accounts of these men are invalid, but eyewitness accounts of other historic figures (say Genghis Khan) are valid.

          In support of your argument i will agree that not ALL of the books of the bible are eyewitness accounts, but if you actually took the time to read parts of the old testament e.g. 1-2 Kings, Judges, Daniel, etc (filter out the "god" bits if you like) and note the historical figures such as King Xerxes, Cyrus the great, King Nebudchanezzar (prob wrong spelling), you would probably find that they actually align with historian's accounts of these important figures/eras.

          Unfortunately many people who havent actually read the bible pass it off as heresay, like a holy book of moral teachings, or a guide of spirituality. It also includes many historical accounts that align with historical events.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 01:13
          +1

          @nairdajun:

          Just because the bible includes some history does not make the extraordinary claims true.

          For example the bible claims that Jacob went down to Egypt with 70 people and then four generations later ( it says Moses is fourth gen after) they left with six hundred thou men.

          Do the math, that requires every woman to have something like twenty kids. We all know that lots of women and babies died, that kind of reproduction even today is impossible.

          Archeology also has been looking for traces of the exodus and can't find anything. The bible gives places they stayed and no one can find any traces. Three million people leave a lot of rubbish, and a lot graves and nothing can be found.

          The story of Noah is also completely ridiculous, no serious person accepts that as remotely true or accurate.

          You also forget to mention the terrible morality in the bible.

          For exMple how it allows slavery, and how it recommends to trial a wife for adultery by ordeal.

          Or how about the recommendation for raped virgins to be purchased by the rapist in duet 20.

          Shame on you for your complete dishonest representation of what the bible really teaches in Moses law.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 01:15

          @nairdajun:

          Batman also mentions New York that doesn't make it true.

          Do yourself a favour and list the bible authors and list their crimes and position in life. No go thru and try and list a single good thing done by any of these men.

          Not one bible author EVER does a good or kind thing. Then again what else does one expect from kings and priests from acne it Middle East times.

          Now answer the question , why is God talking and helping such utterly terrible aresholes ? These men are the same type of evil as Saddam etc and yet God is still their friend.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 01:20

          @nairdajun:

          Emperor Constantine did not become a xian, that's an utter lie. He only allowed xianity when previously it was illegal. Go read any encyclopaedia about his life.

          It's important to state the facts accurately. Constantine worshipped the sun all his life and this never changed.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 01:23
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: I understand this argument, i was talking to someone today who believed the same.

          What we understand (or increase to understand) is the aspect of the Trinity. Is that 3 seperate beings are in such close community with one another, that nobody does anything by themselves without the agreement of each other. You could say that three different individuals thinking so alike, that they act as a single entity.

          God is an entity of free will, and created us in His image (thats what we believe), so in concordance to that we also have free will. The reason why God is referred to as "love", is that He always chooses the objective to love. That comes through many different ways, and i wont be able to answer that people ask "well then why does God allow suffering, or why did God command the Israelites to wipe out certain races". I am not God so i cannot explain his motives, only that if i could i would be putting myself on the same level as God.

          Lets move on to the topic of sacrifice:
          In the old testament you will see that God knows (and perhaps) the rules. He offers guidelines to the people he created in order to live a great and fulfilling life. He also allowed them to choose disobedience. When man chose disobedience, he rebelled against his creator. Now because God is a loving being, he doesnt want that enmity between creator and creation to result in eternal seperation - that is, God still wants to be in relationship with man. In order to deal with sin, blood has to be shed. In a sense, the "wages" of sin is death, and if you do not wish for eternal death, something else must take your place. The most simiplistic way i can explain this is that you work X hours in your job, you get X amount of pay. if you break the law doing X, you deserve X. It is the same concept as that, albeit more spiritual and more complicated.

          If you say that God can just forgive everything and anything, yes technically He can. But that wouldnt be "just". If you for example say that yes a judge can "forgive" a murderer and let him run free, that is not justice.

          So Jesus CHOSE to die for our sins, because He knew we couldnt save ourselves. We were born into a world of condemnation and disobedience that started from one man (adam), and through one man (Jesus) we also claim redemption and forgiveness. If Jesus did not die for our sins, our existence would be even more cruel and sad. This world for us would have no hope, we ought just to live in the most selfish way possible. Because theres "no point" without a redeemer, because we cant redeem ourselves. There would be no faith in humanity, because humanity fundamentally would be evil.

          I am open to answer any questions you may have if you want to send me in private chat. I am open to intellectually spiritual conversations, but i dont assume i can "argue" you into believing in Jesus Christ…id like to see someone try.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 01:30

          @nickster9999: I do not assume to know exactly what will happen to you, only to hope and pray that you will never have to experience Hell. Instead i hope that if you desire to go to Heaven, you will find that path.

          I think that you being as intelligent as you are, could probably find some clue in the scriptures of what Hell might be like.

          Question is what have you discovered, and how does it sit with you?

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 01:34

          @ninetyNineCents: You may be right, i retract that statement. Only that some people believed that he became a christian. Scholars believed that he might have been the first christian emperor. Lets just say that he allowed christianity to thrive, and was POSSIBLY the first christian emperor.

          Scholars are in disagreement as to whether he was christian or not, so im not sure about this last claim you make that seems to be steeped as a 100% fact.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 01:50
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: Batman puts Gotham city as a place somewhere possibly in america, in a movie (just referring to the movie) that was created less than 10 years ago. If that existed in real life, we would be able to find it without looking very hard (say google maps).

          Ill say something that i have said before. If i assume to know the motives of God, and the reasons behind God's activity, i would be putting myself on the same level as God. Because i am not, i wont. But i will say this, for every story and character that is included in the Bible, God has a reason for telling it/allowing it to happen.

          One fundamental question is that you judge the people in the old testament as "terrible assholes". What makes you think that you or i are any better than these people? Because you have never had a slave? Because you have never raped /murdered anyone?

          What about have you ever done/been involved in (one aspect or another) harming another, be it physically, emotionally, or psychologically, or stood to gain something from a loss of someone else?

          I know i have, which means i am not excluded from the judgement of the evil that i have done.

          Lets just for one moment assume the old testament is 100% factual and correct. If this is so, the difference between these "terrible assholes" is that the ones that God helps, were the ones who recognized that they were not the rulers of their own lives, that they were as insignificant as the next person, and there exists a God who is more powerful, more holy, wiser and better than they were. THey acknowledged themselves for what they really were, part of His creation and not gods.

          Interesting you bring up this concept of the "same type of evil". We believe that to God, there is no difference in "evil". Rape is the same as adultery, hatred (e.g. racial) is equivalent to murder, and all fall under the banner of "sin".

          It is humans like me and you who want to put "evil" on a scale, to say that this is better than that, so that we make ourselves look and feel better about ourselves, comparing ourselves against others who we think are lesser than ourselves. This is called Self-righteousness, and you dont have to be "christian" to be self-righteous…and this is as much a sin as the previous. I have been as guilty for this as anyone else in this life, and fortunately my eyes have been opened to how I do this, so that i dont keep doing it.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 02:37
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: Only if you ACTUALLY read the bible, King David never attributed to himself as a God, King Solomon never once likened himself to God, King Nebudchanezzar toward the end of his reign, actually admitted that God was higher than himself, who at one stage proclaimed that he was "the shit" (for lack of a better term).

          I am not sure where you get this idea that the Jewish Kings believed that they descended from "God", because its clear in the bible (and to historians) that the first King of Israel was Saul. And he was "appointed" by God. After Saul, God "appointed" King David. So you see, at least Saul, King David, and Solomon (the first 3 kings of Israel) never once doubted that the role of King was "given" to them, and they were merely stewards of a kingdom.

          "All the OT books are written by kings and high priests the two co rulers of ancient israel"
          Completely untrue. The books of Ruth, Job, Judges, Jonah, rest of the prophets, were not written by kings or high priests or even by Moses. They were written either by the prophets themselves, or by scribes employed by them.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 03:14
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: What you need to also include is that Jacob (aka Israel) could have had more children even at the age of ~140+, and the lifetimes of individuals in that period was not certain.

          If Sarah was able to have children at 90 years of age (which was a miracle) then we need to allow the assumption that this opportunity could have been afforded to those who came after them. We know that SOME women died, and SOME babies died, we dont know exactly how many. Furthermore you have factors in this day in age and you cannot compare eras side by side. For example the average age of a woman giving birth and getting married is increasing every year, when it would have been common in that time for a women to begin childbearing at 12. If they lived as long as some of the men did, it gives them over 100 years to bear children. Because Sarah was able to give birth to Isaac at 90 years of age, we cannot discount the possibility that others too, may have done the same. The majority of them also did not have to deal with some of the things we have to today, like university and high school and school in general. In an ancient agricultural society, you had children when you got married. This occurred in the early teens, nearly twenty years earlier than our "average" childbearing age today. In the healthy teenage years, women are much more capable of successfully bearing children and surviving than in their later years. If one woman was married at 12 and had children every single year until 32 (easily achievable in this era), you would already fulfil your quota. In this society, women had internalized their value as attributed to their ability to produce children, and was not hindered by "careers" or other things.

          Noah - If you went back 200 years and told the europeans that the earth was round, theyd have burned you at the stake. Just because you dont believe it, does not make it untrue. Unless you had a time machine and a camera, you cant "prove" that it didnt happen either. Theres plenty of archaeological evidence to suggest the presence of a great flood. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2000/sep/14/international…

          Morality: Again it seems like you assume that everything that happens in the Bible that does not conform with your understanding of morality means that God is by association, immoral. How about assuming God as an entity of Love, which also includes the aspect of free will?

          If you actually had read the Bible, you would find that the old testament laws also instructed the Israelites ethical treatment of slaves, and how to go about matters of "justice". You are forgetting that the old testament laws were written for a nation who had been living in 400 years of slavery, who had no knowledge of a different life, how to run a society or even how to go about matters of fair treatment and justice. It is the same as the african american slaves who finally received freedom from slavery, but most did not know what to do about this newfound freedom. They did not know any other way of life.

          For raped virgins to be purchased by the rapist - what then is more ethical? allow the raped virgin to die with no redemption, and be forced to beg for a living? Become a prostitute for the rest of her life, attributing herself to more pain and shame?

          It sounds like you are criticizing my understanding of the bible, when it seems to be that you have an inaccurate understanding of "what the bible really teaches in Moses law". In the words of Jesus, all the laws in the time of Moses can be summed up in two: Love your God with all your mind, soul and strength, and Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

          If you truly did do things that were loving to your neighbor, you would not have need for law. Justice would always occur, in fact the world would be "unjust", but positively so. People would be over generous to each other, not giving fair exchange but giving more than each other deserved. However the only time we give people more than they deserve, is revenge and pain.

          Instead the laws in Moses time was defined as the bare minimum requirements for "justice". When someone wrongs another, they dont just go for what was taken from them, they want more. And that is why the law existed "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Because if you took my eye, my natural tendency is for you to get your eye taken out, and then perhaps some more for the pain you put me through.

          In fact, i can paraphrase the ten commandments. This is how you love one another and love/care for yourselves:
          You honour your mother and father
          you dont steal
          you dont lie to each other
          you dont covet your friend's stuff
          you dont sleep with another mans wife
          You take a break one in every 7 days, and allow your animals, wives, children to take a break.
          etc, etc.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:17

          @nairdajun:

          think that you being as intelligent as you are, could probably find some clue in the scriptures of what Hell might be like.

          Question is what have you discovered, and how does it sit with you?

          ::
          You are firstly assuming that hte bible is telling the truth. Secondly there is NO firey hell or judgement in the OT. Hell with fire and all that is a xian invention. Most of your beliefs and approach is not from the bible but made up bullshit by men from a much later age.

          I have already caught you a few times telling lies because you dont actually know what the bibel says.

          LIke i asked before, knowing the lives of the bible authors particularly int he OT, given they are killers, rapists, slavers and other unspeakable evil, whyd o you trust them ? More importantly why does your god have anything to do with such utterly evil scum ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:18

          @nairdajun:

          You may be right, i retract that statement. Only that some people believed that he became a christian. Scholars believed that he might have been the first christian emperor. Lets just say that he allowed christianity to thrive, and was POSSIBLY the first christian emperor.

          Scholars are in disagreement as to whether he was christian or not, so im not sure about this last claim you make that seems to be steeped as a 100% fact.

          :: Its a YES or NO , there are no MAYBES..

          If you dont know for sure you shouldnt make up shit. There is no proof that Constantine was a xian. Most of his life story does not in anyway say that he is. You really shouldnt be lose wiht the truth like that its not honest.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:21

          @nairdajun:

          What we understand (or increase to understand) is the aspect of the Trinity. Is that 3 seperate beings are in such close community with one another, that nobody does anything by themselves without the agreement of each other. You could say that three different individuals thinking so alike, that they act as a single entity.

          THis is utterly stupid. THe bible is 1000+ pages and no where does it actually say there is a trinity. Ask any Rabbi about the trinity if you want.

          I dont particularly care if htere is a trinity, im just trying to pinpoint how dishonest it is to claim something like this as true with absolutely NO evidence. Most of your words here are guesses. If there was a trinity, dont you think its an important fact that God should have mentioned at least once ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:28

          @nairdajun:

          It sounds like you are criticizing my understanding of the bible, when it seems to be that you have an inaccurate understanding of "what the bible really teaches in Moses law".

          Im criticizing the fact, you dishonestly omit the evil laws that allow slavery and rape.

          WHen you start to examine the laws you are obviously avoiding it becomes obvious Moses laws are the same as Shariah law, in their brutality and disrespect for women and slaves. How does one explain god thinks slavery and raping women is acceptable ?

          > In the words of Jesus, all the laws in the time of Moses can be summed up in two: Love your God with all your mind, soul and strength, and Love your neighbor as you love yourself

          Jesus is quoting and summarizing Moses. Like i said Love thy neighbour is from Lev 19:18, i added the bolding.

          http://biblehub.com/leviticus/19.htm

          18'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

          Here we have in gods laws in Lev, god telling Moses the same thing as Jesus and yet 2 lines later he gives further instruction about slavery. Is that love ? Jesus himself NEVER bans slavery at all, in fact i can give several more examples where he tells slaves to work for their masters without complaining as its gods will.

          Here is Jesus speaking about slavery and at no stage commenting on the wrongness of violence or slavery itself. He had many opportunities but saw nothing wrong with slavery in all its pain and suffering. In fact he thinks nothing of hurting a slave for any reason.

          >
          The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
          <<

          How does one explain God being evil and allowing MOses laws to curse the people of Israel for 1000 years ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:36

          @nairdajun:

          "All the OT books are written by kings and high priests the two co rulers of ancient israel"

          Completely untrue. The books of Ruth, Job, Judges, Jonah, rest of the prophets, were not written by kings or high priests or even by Moses.

          Judges was written by Samuel who was the high priest of ALL israel and advisor to the kings.

          Nobody knows who wrote Job or Ruth, so its not fair to include them. Stick to the books we actually know.

          The books of the prophets were written by Elites. Nearly all of them are advisors or high priests eg, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah.

          Moses (Leader), David (King), Samuel (High priest), Joshua (Military Leader), etc.

          They were written either by the prophets themselves, or by scribes employed by them.

          Only rich people like kings and priests could afford scribes. Try a bit harder and you will see my statement is correct. Very few people could read and write and even fewer could afford to write books. Vellum, etc was very expensive more than the average person who struggled to survive could afford.

          People like you and me simply could not afford to get an education to read or write let alone spend money writing on "paper" that cost more than they earned for weeks worth of work.

          For starters humble people like you and me didnt even know how to write back in those days.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:39

          @nairdajun:

          If you then want to make the case that the Bible is not a factual historic text, you are effectively saying that the authors of the books of the bible are just fancy storytellers, and their literary accounts of what they saw is nothing but false. The danger there is that you are questioning the credibility of all the authors of those books, and must include the possibility that every text in human history could be fabricated nonsense.

          But they are liars, Ezekiel for example claims that the city of Tyre will be destroyed forever for its evil. Tyre still exists today, you can go on Google maps and see it for yourself with people still living there.

          Want me to show more examples ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:42

          @nairdajun:

          Instead the laws in Moses time was defined as the bare minimum requirements for "justice".

          Please dont try and make excuses for these laws. You either believe God gave them or he didnt. YOur basically admitting that god is no better than Mohammad and for some unexcusable reason finds it necessary to make laws that match their customs.

          In fact, i can paraphrase the ten commandments. This is how you love one another and love/care for yourselves:

          You forgot to also mention the ten commadnments also say you shouldnt steal your neighbours slave.

          But where does it say you shouldnt HAVE slavery ? Where is the law that makes women equal ?

          You seriously need to go thru and read the 613 mitzvot.

          http://biblehub.com/exodus/21.htm

          >
          7"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
          <<

          http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22.htm

          >
          28“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

          29then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.
          <<

          Now tell me these laws are fair and good and not like Shariah law…

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 09:45

          @nairdajun:

          Lets just for one moment assume the old testament is 100% factual and correct. If this is so, the difference between these "terrible assholes" is that the ones that God helps, were the ones who recognized that they were not the rulers of their own lives, that they were as insignificant as the next person, and there exists a God who is more powerful, more holy, wiser and better than they were. THey acknowledged themselves for what they really were, part of His creation and not gods.

          So killing tens of thousands to keep power is acceptable to god ?

          You wouldnt believe Stalin or Hitler or Saddam if they claimed to be prophets and yet the kings and friends of God inthe bible do exactly t he same crimes for their advantage.

          God could have picked good king men, but he ALWAYS picks the utter worst scum. Thats the problem. THere is no excuse for helping or selecting these men in anyway. The other sadness is God never condemns these men for these crimes, and thats why they continue to always do these evils. Even Jesus never condemns them.

          They are evil men, when you kill on that scale , what makes you think they are honest ? THey tell their stories to strike fear into the reader, thats why we have those stories. THose men lie to keep power. its always about them.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 12:42

          @nairdajun:

          For raped virgins to be purchased by the rapist - what then is more ethical? allow the raped virgin to die with no redemption, and be forced to beg for a living?

          How about punsihing the rapist and putting in some sort of jail to protect other women from this barstard.

          Become a prostitute for the rest of her life, attributing herself to more pain and shame?

          Just listen to yourself. The father is compensated for the loss that he would take in not selling his daugther to husband and the poor girl has to live with this criminal.

          Thats utter ly sad. This law validates that women have no rights and are objects to be sold.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 12:44

          @nairdajun:

          Only if you ACTUALLY read the bible, King David never attributed to himself as a God, King Solomon never once likened himself to God, King Nebudchanezzar toward the end of his reign, actually admitted that God was higher than himself, who at one stage proclaimed that he was "the shit" (for lack of a better term).

          I never said David or any other bible character claimed to be god.

          You really need to read more carefully.

          All i said was that David, SOlomon and ever other bible author is a criminal of the worst kind that should not be trusted to tell the truth on any matter.

          No go back and try and find a single example of any bible author doing a single GOOD thing.

        • SlickMick on 17/08/2015 - 13:32

          @ninetyNineCents:
          nvr mind. I didn't realise there was soooooo much to respond to :)

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:10

          @SlickMick:

          Haha, theresint much its basically the same theme. That is nairdajun doesnt tell the whole story and often skips details which when examined paint a very different picture of the bible and just as importantly the motivations of the authors who wrote the bible.

          Its hard to have respect for Jesus when you realise he claims Moses law is perfect and doesnt need changing (mat 5:18), especially after you realise he must have known that it offers almost no protection for women as i have demonstrated by its rape law for virgins. This is only the start i can show with a few texts that Moses law is just another variant in the mid east culture of violence and brutality that we see in islam and ISIS today.

          Everything we see and hear about ISIS and condemn is also done by bible heroes without condemnation. Jesus never says killing, slaving, raping is wrong when its done by any bible author.

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:13
          +2

          @ninetyNineCents: I appreciate all your comments but i think you should keep this discussion purely intellectual instead of calling me a liar based on your understanding of the bible.

          Firstly i have read the bible, cover to cover. I dont claim to be able to extrapolate every scripture or memorize every verse, but on the surface at least i understand that the entire old testament was actually pointing to the coming of a "better" world, one in which we attribute to anno Domini "the era of the Lord". Because we have Jesus, we have hope.

          Now essentially listen to yourself. You are judging the scriptures based on your human understanding, which is all limited. You are trying to bring God down to your human understanding of morality. You can pick at inconsistencies in the Bible all you like, the fact remains that the Bible is a collection of documents written by different people over hundreds if not thousands of years.

          You make a lot of arguments saying "there is no evidence to suggest that it is true", is there sufficient evidence to explain that it is false? If there isnt, then it is POSSIBLE. Humans make assumptions and "laws" (e.g. scientific laws) to help them understand aspects of the world. We are constantly finding out our current understanding of the "laws of physics" do not apply to many things. Examples are non-newtonian substances, particle physics. Do not assume that the rules that we make to understand things are always correct, especially if were trying to comprehend things we will never understand in this lifetime such as things occurring in the spiritual realm. As i have said, just because you are not convinced, does not make it false.

          Re: trinity. It does not say that in the old testament, but if you read the book of John, it says in the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. < If you keep reading this you will find that John is talking about Jesus. If you keep reading toward the end of the gospels, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as the Advocate, or the Helper. He commands his disciples (the great commission) to go forth and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

          I dont know what version of the bible YOU read but to me that is a clear reference to the trinity.

          You call them "evil laws" that permit rape and slavery. You are trying to hold an ancient society toward your moral standard. Slavery was legal at that time, and it was normal. Slavery predates the Old Testament laws and just because it occurs doesnt mean that God condones of that behaviour. You are completely omitting the fact that it was God who wanted to deliver Israel from slavery, and also it was christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery in the 1800s. You also get people writing funny articles saying that christians invented slavery. This is bullshit, because slavery predates christianity (as i have said) and slavery was STILL occurring during the time of Jesus. Romans had male and female slaves during this time.

          This is the same as rape, you are applying the current perspectives of rape in this day and age, and trying to make an ancient time applicable to your current day perspective of rape. Women in those days couldnt do anything on their own, they depended on a male to provide for them. Jailing the rapist doesnt help the woman, neither does "compensating the father". It is not right, but a woman's value was determined on 3 things in those times. Her virginity, her beauty, and her ability to bear children. You also need to consider that women in this time period were treated similar to property. You and I will never be able to fully comprehend the cultural context in which slavery and rape occurs in the ancient times, so there is no point trying to apply our moral standards of this day in age to say that X or Y is right or wrong and that because its wrong therefore God must be an injust God.

          Nothing i have said in all these comments are "lies", they are true comments based on what i understand of the historical context and the biblical knowledge. I admit my knowledge is not fully comprehensive, but that does not make my comments lies.

          THe passage you are quoting in Luke is a parable that Jesus is telling. It is a STORY. These stories he told to give people a picture of what the "kingdom of heaven" will be like. Jesus uses language that is appropriate for the time. You dont expect Jesus to say something like "if you dont complete the work your boss sets for you, then prepare to get fired" do you? Try to place yourself in the cultural context and stop taking things out of context.

          Jesus tells slaves to work for their masters and not complain because if YOU were a master and your slaves worked hard for you without complaining, wouldnt YOU value that slave as faithful and hardworking? Lets bring this to the current era. If you were a CEO and you heard people complaining all the time and NOT hardworking, you would FIRE that person immediately. If they were hardworking and complaining, you might try and identify if there are any other problems. If you saw them hardworking and NOT complaining, you would say that they are a good worker.

          Rich people could only afford scribes and paper. This is a true statement, but that doesnt mean that prophets were not able to find other means of recording scriptures. Moses recorded the ten commandments on stone. Prophets who wrote the scriptures down were at very least educated in writing. Ancient times also saw the use of hides to record writings, not everything was "written on paper"

          Ezekiel claimed that Tyre would be destroyed forever - Who is to say that it wont still happen? Are we all dead yet? is it the end of the world already?

          Try and find an author who did a single good thing: Solomon using his wisdom was able to determine who a baby's true mother was. To me, justice was served that day. Moses with the help of God lead a nation out of slavery. Oh thats right you still dont believe that actually happened. Paul spent the first chapter of his life killing and arresting christians, but then turned his life around for something to help others rather than persecute them. Matthew went from being a tax collector and helping himself to people's money, to giving away half of what he owned to the poor, and repaying four times the amount he stole. Peter went from being a coward to being used by God to heal a lame person.

          Anyway, these things will probably not be enough to convince you, of that its plainly obvious. It seems like you have a very solid interpretation of the scriptures, and your belief(or disbelief) in them is firm and unshakable. I suppose theres not much point in me trying to ask you to consider other points of view if you arent willing to consider them. But you make many good points, and these are opportunities for me to seek answers for your points.

          In order to gain understanding of anything, you need to first be willing to make some assumptions that the thing you are pursuing to increase your knowledge in actually exists or at least possible. If you are not willing to assume that it is true, you will never be convinced or even accept possibilities of certain things happening. If people between 0AD-1700AD were willing to accept the possibility that the earth was round, they could use MANY phenomena to confirm that belief or prove that the earth was round. but many were not, and labelled it as heresy. I have been willing to accept that some of what you say is at least possible, which encourages me to find answers to some questions i have. But as long as you arent willing to assume for a moment that the scriptures are true, then we wont get anywhere.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:17

          @nairdajun:

          I appreciate all your comments but i think you should keep this discussion purely intellectual instead of calling me a liar based on your understanding of the bible.

          I called you a liar because you intentionally avoid mentioning the evils that i have been pointing out.

          Face the facts Moses law == Shariah law in all its brutality and pain.

          You delibrately tried to paint a nice and fuzzy picture of christianity while avoiding its very real failings about two of the most important issues in all humanity.

          Slavery and equality of women.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:20

          @nairdajun:

          You call them "evil laws" that permit rape and slavery. You are trying to hold an ancient society toward your moral standard. Slavery was legal at that time, and it was normal.

          You just admitted the laws of Moses are not from God but the product of the culture at that time.

          Moses is committing fraud here by representing them as gods ideas and will. Every single prophet including jesus accepting Moses laws as true and genuine. Not only does that make them barbarians that also makes them evil for failing to correct the evil within them.

          We all know that islam and shariah laws creates a hell for people in those lands, so why pretend otherwise for the bible ? WHy pretend its gods word when its so obviously the product of mid east kings and priests who lie for their own advantage ?

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:23

          @nairdajun:

          Ezekiel claimed that Tyre would be destroyed forever - Who is to say that it wont still happen? Are we all dead yet? is it the end of the world already?

          What are you on about ? Ezekiel claims it would be destroyed in his day and remain destroyed forever. Thats WHAT HE SAID, nothing more or less.

          He didnt say uit would happen in the future he said it would happen then.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:25

          @nairdajun:

          THe passage you are quoting in Luke is a parable that Jesus is telling. It is a STORY. These stories he told to give people a picture of what the "kingdom of heaven" will be like. Jesus uses language that is appropriate for the time. You dont expect Jesus to say something like "if you dont complete the work your boss sets for you, then prepare to get fired" do you?

          THe purpose of these parables is to teach. Jesus failed to teach that slavery is evil here instead he condones it.

          Try to place yourself in the cultural context and stop taking things out of context.

          You just admitted the bible is the work of men and Jesus is just another bigotted backward middle east man.

          So tell me why are you raising him on a pedestal when he is so blind he cant see anything wrong about slavery ?

        • KnifeEnthusiastBoi on 17/08/2015 - 14:28
          +1

          @ninetyNineCents: The Laws of Moses were given by God to a nation who knew nothing but slavery for 400 years. If you were really interested in a current day example, go and find out what the slaves in america did after slavery was abolished. Many had no idea what to do with their newfound freedom, and many continued to work for their former masters in exchange for pay.

          The laws of moses was given by God to the nation of Israel to help them establish a society of order and to outline the minimum requirements of fair treatment of EACH OTHER.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:31

          @nairdajun:

          Try and find an author who did a single good thing:

          Solomon using his wisdom was able to determine who a baby's true mother was. To me, justice was served that day.

          Thats not goodness in the sense of selfless charity or kindness.

          You forgot to mention that Solomon destroyed the kingdom with his excessive taxes. Thats why the northern tribe broke away.

          Moses with the help of God lead a nation out of slavery.

          Yeh and five minutes later he wrote laws that allows slavery back in. Go read how Moses treated people who dared to speak against him. As i said before he executed 15000 when Korah dared to question Moses about some matter. Korah wasnt violent or anytthing, Moses was just your typical tyrant who cannot and will not allow any dissent.

          The poor jews after they left Egypt, ended back in Israel as slaves of all the future kings. The exodus story isnt about freedom from slavery at all, its about one tyrant trying to grab power for himself, which is what happened. Moses was from the line of high priests who with the kings ruled the country and lived in palaces while the poor suffered.

        • ninetyNineCents on 17/08/2015 - 14:33

          @nairdajun:

          If people between 0AD-1700AD were willing to accept the possibility that the earth was round, they could use MANY phenomena to confirm that belief or prove that the earth was round

          Most people in the ancient world knew the earth was round. THis is another example of xians telling lies so they can pretend that job is scientific by saying the earht is round.

          You dont know your history or bible very well.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth

          The idea of a spherical Earth appeared in Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most Pre-Socratics retained the flat Earth model. Aristotle accepted the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds around 330 BC, and knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.[2][3][4

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