Has OzB gone to the dogs?

thewinchester on 11/10/2010 - 11:00

After a post last night and seeing just how things have transpired recently, I'm wondering if OzB is well on the way to, or has gone to the dogs.

I've been around here for 2 1/4 years now, and this was a great community. Nobody looked the gift horse in the mouth and when you had something which provided a good discount/offer, or allowed them to jump the queue and find out about specials before others - everyone was happy.

Fast forward to the last couple of months, and the community seems to have gone south.

I'm going to sample a few recent posts, to show how silly some users on OzB have become. The first two are from recent threads I have posted, and the remaining are from other recent offer postings.

Firstly, a quick paraphrasing of the negative responses so far on a post made last night (http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/32440):

  • 'I don't like the company so I'll neg'
  • 'It's not absolutely, completely and totally free, so I'll neg'
  • 'I don't understand enough about it to know why it's a deal, so I'll neg'
  • 'I've got to go off and read more information about the deal on the company's site (that'll make sure I understand it correctly), so I'll neg'

Examples from another post, a pre-sale code for an upcoming concert series (http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/31056):

  • "line up is a bit shit, not a bargain" (from user sonicentropy)
  • "Not a bargain AND a negative - this isn’t OZHANDYINFO.COM is it?" (user KLoNe)

And here's some examples from other recent posts to OzB in the last week (don't have the time now to go back any further):

All of these aren't good enough reasons in my book to neg a deal, and show just rude parts of the community have become.

There was a time where if something wasn't relevant to you, or you weren't going to use it - you just put the keyboard away and moved on to the next post. Now, people seem obsessed about getting post counts up, and stepping on other people when they can for their own supposed 'advancement' amongst the community.

Now I can't speak to how this could be affecting new memberships, but does the attitude I'm expressing displeasure with keep new people away or make them not want to participate?

Has the community become too focused on specific categories of deals (technology for example), that deals outside of this aren't understood well enough for their value for those who might benefit from it to be understood?

Anyway, that's my thinking out loud done. Be interested to see what others think about this.

Mod — moved to announcement/feedback forum —scotty

Site Discussion

Comments

  • ozhunter on 11/10/2010 - 11:13
    +1

    People felt that you were misleading in your post, if you provided more information, most of those negs would have been removed. With the Good Vibrations, there wasn't actually a saving, so how could have it been a bargain? Negs are valid, if the OP hasn't provided sufficient information, but are usually removed by mods when it has been rectified.

    Wrong specs can think a consumer is getting a better than he really is, eg. if I say a 2TB cavair black for $130, when it's actually a caviar green, its a big difference.

    There will always be 'idiots wherever you go, the more people sign up, the more they will be. There have been some debate on the definition of a bargain eg. some consider $5 off a $100 item a bargain, others won't unless it is at least $15 off.

    • thewinchester on 11/10/2010 - 12:30

      I couldn't agree more that there's always going to be a bit of mob rule, and influence of people who are stingy with their money. It's the job of the community to keep these people in check, and report to ensure the community remains what we all expect of it - one where people are comfortable to come and share information on bargains & opportunities.

      However, getting into specifics I'd love to know how exactly you or others think the Qantas post have been misleading?

      It clearly stated what the discount was for, what the maximum amount you might save could be, and the most pertinent information to the deal.

      Also, why do people expect the OP to copy every single piece of information into a post? Are they that lazy they want others to do all the work for them? Are people that incapable of clicking on a link to find out more information if they are interested, investigate it and determine if the deal is right for them?

      On wrong specs question, you've blown the example totally out of proportion to justify the point. beatlebob gave a -ive vote because the OP accidentally put the wrong RPM speed in the info - not enough of a reason IMHO for the -ive in that case.

      If the scenario was as you'd highlighted where the product title or a majority of the specifications were significantly mis-described, then that's an issue for a mod report, not a negative vote (as the deal will be no doubt pulled by mod on the basis of the incorrect title/description).

      On the GVF pre-sale, this is one I've asked for mod input on previously and there's been no issue with it. Strictly speaking, it was information that would enable you to gain access to something (a concert ticket in that case) before the general public. Such deals have been posted before, and there has been no issue raised by mods, or a prohibition in the rules/guides that I'm aware of that prevents such offers being posted.

      • gadgetguy on 11/10/2010 - 15:24
        +4

        If you'd simply stated "1 Year Qantas Club Reduced to $xxx from $xxx" then you would have had no backlash.

        As it stands the implication of the title is that it is free to join the club, when that is not the case. Its not until reading either right into the post or going to Qantas that this became clear - that wasted a lot of people's time and dashed a lot of hopes.

        Still I presume you are now very happy with the removed neg's, well done you.

        • andy19363 on 11/10/2010 - 17:48
          +2

          Hmmm….perhaps an area might be set aside in which future deals can be written in wax crayon, texta or spray can, with a space next to them for some type of colourful drawing. Of course, there would also have to be monitoring for excess syllables…….

        • anthony on 12/10/2010 - 16:52
          +1

          If you’d simply stated “1 Year Qantas Club Reduced to $xxx from $xxx” then you would have had no backlash.

          But the offer was not for a 1 year membership, it applied to all membership periods.

          People really should be able to understand the difference between a joining fee which was free and a membership fee which was not free.

  • ShortyX on 11/10/2010 - 11:43
    +3

    People are way too neg happy.

    I posted this http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/32187 and got banned from posting new deals for 5 days as it got 2 negs…however, the deal was for stainless steel bottles and not aluminium bottles.

    Sometimes, it seems that once a couple of people vote neg with ok (not proven) reasoning, everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

  • neil on 11/10/2010 - 12:07
    +2

    Agree with the winchester, and just spent the last 10 minutes removed negs from that deal. Best way is for people to use the REPORT button if there needs to be a clarification made or a questionable negative vote.

    • neil on 11/10/2010 - 12:15
      +4

      I may add, I don't understand why people are more interested in negging deals, rather than finding good deals and + voting them. Seems like a waste of time to me.

      • Mikinoz on 11/10/2010 - 12:24
        +2

        How about remove the neg, and have dislike / like , simalr to what we talked about before ?

        Totally agree with Winchester although cant help thinking i am a bit of a culprit myself

        • ozhunter on 11/10/2010 - 12:29
          +1

          I also think like/dislike would be better, a "dislike" just seems less harsh than a neg.

          • neil on 11/10/2010 - 12:33
            +2

            @ozhunter: I've never liked the neg from day 1. Even if we do have a neg vote, I thought it should be combined to just show total vote (not separate + and neg). That said, with the volume of increasing deals and voting, it's just not sustainable long term to have a moderator vet out every deal, and there needs to some sort of automation which is where the negative votes come in.

            It may be interesting to see what psychological effects changing to Like/Dislike would have. Buckscoop uses Cold/Warm/Hot so seems like we could have something similar. Anyway, not up to me.

            Speaking of Like/Dislike, would be great to have the site integrate with Facebook or other social site, so I can see what my friends are voting for and vice versa.

            • Davo1111 on 11/10/2010 - 13:41
              +2

              @neil: perhaps we need the worm, lol

            • scotty on 12/10/2010 - 00:46

              @neil: Why does Buckscoop's cold/warm system have no such problem?

              I suspect that anonymising the voter might be the reason? So people don't know how votes are counted and whom should they complain? Not sure whether it will work here, as people are already complaining the fact the we anonymise the negative voter for comments.

              Buckscoop is also attracting a different crowd. Somehow OzBargain is also getting the Whingepool people :)

              Buckscoop's system is basically the same vBulletin plugin as HotUKDeals, which is a much larger community. Paul @ HotUKDeals is coming to Australia in November and maybe I'll see how he resolves it.

        • scotty on 12/10/2010 - 00:37

          Problem for Like/Dislike is… they are just different label for the current +1/-1 buttons. We could consolidate the value to show the total vote (number of "likes" - number of "dislikes"). Similar to how the comments are voted at the moment?

          However I doubt people pressing the -1 button is the problem here, but rather some people's comments and attitudes that drag this issue into forums again and again.

          (Note: this should have been in Feedback Forums)

  • retiredfeline on 11/10/2010 - 12:59
    +3

    I think neg/pos is too narrow a channel for effective communication.

    For clarification/corrections perhaps there should be a ? button, separate from report, where the comments generated the OP can see easily and can be hidden once the problem is fixed.

    Some people want to express degree of liking. Perhaps there should be a scale of 1 to 5 and the results are averaged. Maybe a weighted average so more experienced subscribers get more say. Don't know how to handle the front page threshold though.

    Would be a big untested change to the publishing algorithm though.

    Just throwing out some ideas.

    • Davo1111 on 11/10/2010 - 13:41
      +1

      Just throwing out some ideas.

      Sure :) feel free to suggest any that come to mind.

      As a general note, the site rules were made by the community and the mods just enforce it. We take all suggestions on board, and do our best to make changes when feasible.

  • Davo1111 on 11/10/2010 - 13:37
    +1

    ‘It’s not absolutely, completely and totally free, so I’ll neg’
    ‘I don’t understand enough about it to know why it’s a deal, so I’ll neg’
    ‘I’ve got to go off and read more information about the deal on the company’s site (that’ll make sure I understand it correctly), so I’ll neg’

    I just returned from overseas, and pretty jetlagged. If i was here, I would have sent users to the penalty box for neg votes like these.

    Sometimes OzB suffers from its own popularity, and as expected we have a huge community base. All we can really do is enforce the site rules, so please use the report button when possible.

  • retiredfeline on 11/10/2010 - 20:19
    +5

    Ok, how about this: Since people tend to be neg-happy and you mods spend a lot of time culling invalid negs, perhaps the problem should be fixed at the user interface.

    Without changing any of the popularity algorithms, the UI could be made to pop up a window when the - button is clicked on, showing a list of radio buttons with valid reasons for negging, and also requiring a comment to be entered. That would at least tell the user what the rules are. As it is it's too easy to neg, just one click and a comment entered, and you mods then have to clean up afterwards.

    • Mikinoz on 11/10/2010 - 20:21
      +1

      Now thats a good idea!

      • neil on 11/10/2010 - 20:47
        +1

        Yeah, not a bad idea. I think at one point we may have had that but the reasons for voting negative are sometimes hard to define.

        Example:
        Duplicate
        SPAM
        Not Active
        should be REPORTed and not voted neg, and a mod will remove. Since a mod will remove, no point in negging.

        Negative vote:
        Cheaper elsewhere
        Some issue with the company
        Some problem with the product (breaks easily)
        Other grey areas.

        So we'd have to put an other field and then we run into the same problems as before.

        • retiredfeline on 11/10/2010 - 20:50
          +1

          At least it raises the bar and puts the doco at the point of use instead of RTFG.

        • samfisher5986 on 11/10/2010 - 23:46
          +1

          If you always receive the product from the company, then you shouldn't negative vote it. If you don't then it should be marked as spam/scam.

          Also, please tell me one product that exists that deserves to be negative voted because it breaks easily? The quality of a product should be posted as comments and not used as a vote.

          What i'm trying to say is its easier then you think to have set reasons to negative vote with a box below for clarification on that set reason.

          • neil on 12/10/2010 - 00:07

            @samfisher5986: Well, just by memory, COTD has had people complain of various problems regarding shipping and warranties. Just the other day, someone negged a deal from a 1 deal a day site, that was selling a particular kind of shoe. This person purchase the shoe, the previous time they sold it and found the shoe to be defective.

            Breaks easy, off the top of my head, I can only recall bad types of DVD-R's being sold that according to reports have a higher likelyhood of bad burns, unrecoverable data etc.

            But you are right, more often than not, legitimate votes fall into a few common categories. Would be good to have automated removals when a deal has x amount of duplicate, spam reports.

            • samfisher5986 on 12/10/2010 - 18:10
              +1

              @neil: Just because COTD can be stubborn with warranties doesn't mean its not a bargain.

              For example, a PS3 for $200, but it gets voted off because of warranty issues?

              Someone needs to clearly post their opinion saying that COTD has poor warranty service, but thats about it unless you want to create store profiles where we can rate their service.

              And why should poor quality DVD-R's get negative voted? They are very useful for cheap one use discs, for backing up I only use verbatim, but i'm not about to negative vote any brand but verbatim.

              Once again, my point is that by restricting negative voting to specific things you are just going to force all other types of votes into comments which is the whole benefit.

              And scotty, my idea is that all negative votes would have little comments to expand on each basic reason.

        • anthony on 12/10/2010 - 16:59
          +2

          Why not just remove the negative vote completely?

          The report button works for the major things.

          It the deal falls into

          Cheaper elsewhere
          Some issue with the company
          Some problem with the product (breaks easily)
          Other grey areas.

          Then it will not receive positive votes and the issues can be made in the comments.

          • andy19363 on 12/10/2010 - 17:35

            @anthony: big +1 from me for that idea…..

            However, it is possible that mod input would increase……
            There should also be some way of noting that the post had been mod reviewed, to save everyone and his dog from continuing to report it

          • dzf on 18/10/2010 - 17:44

            @anthony: not that i entirely disagree, i guess the flipside of that comment is that I use the negs to draw my attention to particular comments that might warn me about something.

            i know it's a bit of a laziness thing, but unless it's for an item that i'm particularly interested in and don't mind reading each and every comment for - then i probably wouldn't be able to tell where/what those 'warning' comments might be, or if there are any at all.

    • scotty on 12/10/2010 - 00:50

      Argh. For those been with OzBargain long enough (3+ years), this is exactly what we had before! Then we found a selection of reasons is not enough, so a comment is now required before you can vote negative.

      Just having a list of reasons actually makes it easier, not more difficult to neg.

      • retiredfeline on 12/10/2010 - 02:57

        I was suggesting both a drop down list of standard reasons and a personal comment required.

  • mick123 on 12/10/2010 - 11:39
    +2

    Simple solution really.
    If post gets:

    1 -ve vote: 21 lashes
    2 -ve votes: Waterboarding
    3 or more -ve votes: burn em at the stake!!

    Not sure if these measures go far enough though. I am open to more suggestions

    • Davo1111 on 12/10/2010 - 12:18

      agreed, but i think the punishments should be for poor negative vote reasons.

      • slowmo on 23/10/2010 - 02:50
        +1

        I think if everyone is so adverse to the idea of negging a post, then why don't we just do away with the system? Just have 'likes' or +ve votes?

        We can always pat each other's back for a job well done regardless of how crappy the job was done.

        I'm pretty sure the -ve vote system was intended for some valid reasons in the past, but it seems that the current OZB crowd is so adverse to getting negged and taking it personally. The neg button has outlived its original purpose.

        I vote to have it removed temporarily and see what happens in the comments sections next.

        After all, if every user gets lynched for negging a deal instead of reporting, then there's no need for one.

        • scotty on 24/10/2010 - 22:54
          +1

          I vote to have it removed temporarily and see what happens in the comments sections next.

          Ok this will be what I'll do. Remove the negative votes, trial it for a month and see the community reaction, and decide whether to remove negative votes permanently, or roll back the changes.

          I will draft out some proposal and post it here tomorrow.

    • scotty on 24/10/2010 - 22:52

      The problem for that is, not only I need to find new moderators, I also need to find executioners :P

  • UnicornAir on 12/10/2010 - 16:30
    +1

    I would also like to add something to this thread.

    I posted a deal here today as a rep http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/32494

    It was unpublished with the following reason.
    1. No deal here
    2. Spam style post
    3. Price withheld

    I would like to comment on all 3 reasons of having the deal removed.

    1. Me and my team went through google and searched each and evry single model even on ebay and came up with the lowest prices. We then reduced our prices way below that. Plus threw in free shipping and even promised a further discount if installed by us but no pressure. Prices were for units only which companies sell at a higher price when not selling in combo with installation.

    And you are telling me its a no deal. What are you guys after? A FREEBIE DAIKIN SPLIT SYSTEM OR SOMETHING.

    1. Spam style post. Before there was the genuine deal and the spam. So who came up with this one. Spam style yeah. What was so spamming about this one. Being a user for 1 year and having only posted 4 deals, i've become a spammer right. I agree that my past deals weren't as good but now that i did post a good one, it gets removed based on that.

    2. Price withheld. I had no reasons to do this. I linked directly to the promo page as there were many models and prices to list. If users had a problem with this they could have just mentioned this and i would have posted the prices up like i did after. But by the time i did the deal was removed.

    I don't understand what is happening on Ozbargain. I personally am a long time user of Ozbargain which has nothing to do with my rep status for this company. I have noticed that unless you offer freebies nowaday its just not a deal. People are being very biased with their negative votes. I have seen positive votes go for $5 vouchers on online sites but no for this deal i posted.

    Thanks to the 2 users who voted negative.

    • anthony on 12/10/2010 - 17:03

      I have passed the deal onto a friend as I think they are looking for a split system

      Price withheld. I had no reasons to do this. I linked directly to the promo page as there were many models and prices to list. If users had a problem with this they could have just mentioned this and i would have posted the prices up like i did after. But by the time i did the deal was removed.

      If you put a few examples of model/rrp/sale price you might have kept them happy.

    • neil on 12/10/2010 - 17:28
      +2

      Just had a look and other than the multiple negative votes and REPORTS, it does resemble an ad rather than a bargain.

      For reference this is the Title:

      Pre Summer Sale - Daikin Split Systems At Lowest Prices inc postage to Sydney Metro Areas

      No price in title.

      Unicorn Air has searched high and low to bring you the lowest prices possible on these Daikin Split systems.

      Our prices are the lowest amongst all our competitors. We sell the units directly to the public without any installation pressure. But if you do choose to get your units installed through us we will offer a further discount on the unit prices.

      All prices are inclusive of gst and postage to Sydney Metro areas. All other areas need to get a postage cost from us.

      If you have any enquiries regarding this deal or can find a cheaper price elsewhere feel free to post here or email us on [email protected].
      Best Wishes

      The Team At Unicorn Air

      It reads as an advertisement, no prices, no models listed, it's simply a cut/paste job stating all about your company.

      Now if you put some examples of what you are selling and their prices, and even some competitors prices for example, you would probably have a good deal on your hands. Haven't seen many A/Cs being advertised lately.

      You may want to spend some time reading some of the guidelines/tips to posting a deal. http://www.ozbargain.com.au/wiki/

      • chloden on 23/10/2010 - 07:23
        +1

        Would it be that hard to let the guy know that he had got it wrong, given him a reasonable time to respond and then if he did not comply, remove his post.

        • neil on 23/10/2010 - 13:27

          The comments from other users in the thread explained to the OP that it read as SPAM, the mod put a note on the deal, and the votes on the deal were 0 pos and 2 neg. If the mods hadn't unpublished this at this point the deal would have disappeared from the new deals section and the OP is automatically locked from changing the title and description. Since the mods would have to change the title and description, we would have to go through the OPs website note all the prices, change the title and description. Given that we are inundated with SPAM, sockpuppeting etc, it may take us a bit to get to it and change it. So lets say a few hours go by, the deal is riddled with negative comments and votes, but with a new title and description but at this point how many people see the change in the deal. Remember people see new deals via the new deals page, the RSS feed or the Email, so think of it as 1 chance to impresss Ozbargainers.

          Or…..

          We could unpublish the deal, the OP could submit a new deal making the changes need.

          Contrary to belief here, there is some logic to moderation here.

        • scotty on 24/10/2010 - 22:39

          @chloden — do note that UnicornAir has been on OzBargain for a year, and had previously posted valid offers + having offers unpublished with reasons from moderators. I have also had email conversation with them on 13 Oct.

          I think it is more a problem of business/merchants being misled to think OzBargain is just a cheap/free advertising platform. There is a lot more to it — a community of people wanting to get best bargains.

          I'll usually try to email the business to discuss what OzBargain is really about.

        • chloden on 28/10/2010 - 19:33

          Fair enough Scotty. I understand that you have rules, but sometimes it seems that there is one rule for some and another rule for others. Having said that I do understand that some things can slip by you, but I have been frustrated myself by posting what I considered to be worth sharing only to have it voted down accompanied by incorrect comments. I don't bother to post anymore but still use the sites for my own gain, I am sure I am not the only member taking this position. I personally think the idea of ticking a relevant box with a reason for your vote is an excellent idea as it would stop a lot of unnecessary comments.

    • SomeGuyOnOzB on 25/10/2010 - 11:20

      I've had a look too.

      Apart from posting bargains, there's a time saving issue to do with the site too.

      When you have multiple items that are bargains, apart from mentioning that, it's also a good idea to mention one or two examples.

      The best examples of price savings (% wise, $ wise etc) or if they're all great prices, maybe the ones you think might move.

      That way it doesn't come across as just "here's my catalog" which is what some sellers have done and makes you stand out from the spammers.

      I see you mentioned a few deals later on, but it's best to do that in the body of the deal when you post it :)

  • anthony on 12/10/2010 - 17:26

    slayer22 on http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/32267 - and he seems to have a real beef with this company

    You are not wrong!

    "lol and i was just about to order my parts for my new pc from centrecom, (removed) dirty dogs. gonna head off to pc case gear. thanks for the headsup multi 97."
    http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/32181#comment-287335

    • Davo1111 on 12/10/2010 - 17:47

      Slayer has just earnt himself 24 hrs in the penalty box for inappropriate language and not following the voting guidelines.

  • slowmo on 23/10/2010 - 02:53
    +1

    Another beef I have is that I found that there are double standards between posting guidelines and mods moderating the posts. This is aimed at ad-ware posts which are disguised as freewares.

    Please decide to either fix the posting guidelines or fix the posts.

    • neil on 23/10/2010 - 13:29

      Slowmo, can you give an example?

    • Davo1111 on 23/10/2010 - 16:07

      The mods have to draw a line between what is spam, and what is just a crap genuine deal. Slowmo, if you could please provide an example, and we can look into it.

      We try and make the site as transparent as possible. If there are any issues that you're afraid of speaking out, use the "contact" form on my page, my email is there too. Just throw [OZBARGAIN] in the subject line.

      • slowmo on 24/10/2010 - 15:26

        I want to clarify my position, first of all, I have no vested interest in OZB nor in most of the posts or vendors posting here. I use OZB as a reference point for many deals I like to know about in this country. This post probably would serve as a final point where I am willing to speak up and hopefully be heard. Not because I'm afraid of repercussions, I always believe in 'making noise' first to see if someone bothers to listen, before apathy kicks in.

        I neg a deal most of the time because there's insufficient information, if anything else, I tend to explain my negs. Then there are times nowadays where I don't even bother to neg just because I am thinking 'whats the point now'.

        Yes , I believe OZB intended to be community driven, but which group of community?
        1) The whiners who +ve votes blindly and never -ve vote anything just to pat themselves on each good and crap deals they posted?
        2) The non-objective group who always seek to -ve every single deal or comment by people who dared to speak out? (even though this could be due to sock puppetting by accounts that seeks to -ve anyone who said bad things about posts.)

        Here's 2 examples that grates on my nerves…

        http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/32710
        http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/30864

        (Don't get me wrong, I own an android, and i enjoy the game. But that has nothing to do with dealing with the post in question.)

        First of all, Freeware is free, as in air is free for anyone who can breathe. There must be NO catches or strings attached. Ad-supported, paying for add-ons, etc etc are not examples of freeware, thus shouldn't be classified as a freebie. That's called shareware. People who were familiar with the BBS days, can draw parallels to POP clients like eudora which are hugely popular, but often have nag-windows or bars for advertising. These goes away when you pay/register. It's the same concept for mobile apps. Ads go away when you pay/register, and thats how I remember calling my own applications 'shareware' when I wrote them 20 years ago.

        I hate to see someone (or a group) bastardise a proper term (shareware), and call it a free software. I understand the sales type will try to call their own program's 'free', but it's not.

        My beef as explained in previous post lies in the part where you stated in the guidelines where freeware shouldn't be allowed, but here's the confusion, AD-ware isn't free, but because you allow them to be posted. It causes great confusion (to me at least), as it looks to me that you could just pick any 'free' software from itunes or android market and post here just to clock up posts.

        I admit it's a challenge to pigeon-hole softwares, as the marketing/sales dept tend to invent new ways to get around. However, I always think apps from itunes/android market should belong/posted in the forums. I have no issues for games like those from bigfish, where someone posted voucher/codes to redeeem a game… because you have to pay previously to get it.

        Guidelines/ policies/laws have to evolve at some point in time, due to changes in community and trolls who seek to bypass these rules. I think it's time for guidelines to evolve.

        In regards to the neg votes, I think something is wrong with discouraging neg votes… if mods are finding themselves revoking -ve votes because you are preventing a post from being removed or preventing a poster from being banned, then I think something is wrong with 1) the auto-ban system or 2) the guidelines in which the mods are acting on.

        because, from my logic, vote changing is autocratic. People should have their right to say what they want (constructive valid reasons… not trolling), regardless on how stupid it may sound to you and thus vote accordingly.

        I don't know which direction you guys(mods/admins) want your site to move towards… but if you find yourself having to 'administrate' more than necessary, then something is wrong/broken somewhere… and needs to be looked at.

        in reg to spam, i think it can be solved when you have a system that auto-removes/sandbox a post for manual review when there are enough (arbitrary number) people reporting it.

        • SomeGuyOnOzB on 25/10/2010 - 11:33

          Freeware was initially blocked to prevent flooding of the site with too many deals.

          I agree that if you speak up on some deals, then there's a chorus of people who like the deal that may want to shout you down.

          That's partly why the report button was introduced, although it doesn't address all the things you might want to raise.

          Now that adware exists, it has the potential for it to flood the site.

          However, I'd want to give it a few months to see if any such flooding does occur because I've personally warned about other potential issues that, in time, petered into nothing. (So now I take a give it some time approach)

          I'd agree that maybe adware should not be called a freebie. Though, depending on someone's download limits and how much free download they have spare … it would be a freebie for some.

          Yeah, we are dealing with an increasingly diverse community of people and the nature of what we are dealing with keeps expanding and changing (eg adware games now exist) … and the problem comes with seeing how the community responds to them.

          As regards automating, there is always the potential for people to try and abuse the automation, so we have to take a careful approach.

          If auto sandboxing of a deal was brought in, there are some businesses who might just ask their employees to vote their competitors into the sandbox all the time …

          We've already had to deal with a business that was voting against his/her competitors.

      • Davo1111 on 24/10/2010 - 17:35

        I think its interesting that users are concerned about speaking out due to repercussions (you're not the first person to touch on this). I think its a pretty fair community here, when a ban is outside sockpuppeting or spam, its usually discussed in detail in the mod forum. I've always offered my email, so people are always able to contact me outside ozbargain.

        imho games that have ads are free, and should be classified as freebies. You pay nothing for it, and you're not expected to buy the product in the ad - merely providing exposure to something you might want to buy.

        I see what you're saying, but a freebee (on ozbargain) would be impossible to acquire (unless manufacturers dont want to throw something out). I'll give a few examples.

        • free samples - basically a trial for a product.
        • free Business cards with the printing companies name on the back
        • free secure parking - provided you sign up to their mailing list.

        Not really sure where to go from this, but i'm always open to discussion.
        bbl dinner - sorry to cut it short

        • slowmo on 24/10/2010 - 21:36

          I think its interesting that users are concerned about speaking out due to repercussions

          One possibility is when people themselves want to post their own deals sometime in the future, and I do know there are people who lurk around neg voting posts/comments by the person "they don't like" . I agree that's juvenile but there's no stop-gap for this.

          imho games that have ads are free, and should be classified as freebies.

          This is the problem. games/apps that have ads use mobile data, and data on mobiles are not free. See my point now? Lets not argue about bytes used by ads or how trivial it is in comparison to the mobile data plan.. on principle those are not valid reasons to call/term Ad-ware a freebie/freeware. A platypus is a platypus, you don't call it a weird looking duck.

          I'm actually talking about 2 issues here, one is the blurring of actual terms used to categorise apps/games, as well as the double standard used to mod such posts.

          This is where it gets hairy, if you agree that ad-ware apps == freeware, then shouldn't such posts be removed because in the guidelines it clearly says no free software?

          Ad-supported softwares nowadays are like a drop in a big ocean, why not confine them to the forums where people can browse IF they are interested.

          "There are so many useful free software programs and websites out there that if we listed every great one, then we would be inundated with deals. Feel free to discuss any of these in one of our forums. Alternatively, add the freeware to its dedicated free software wiki page – Useful Free Software. "

          so either change the guide line or be more harsh with iphone/android/whatever mobile app supported by ads posts.

        • scotty on 24/10/2010 - 22:48

          This is the problem. games/apps that have ads use mobile data, and data on mobiles are not free.

          So is the download of game. And the handsets that are required to play them? What about the cost of development of Android which is subsidised by Google, probably from the revenue from their online advertising arm, which the advertisers pay, which comes from the extra cost the consumers have to pay…

          Sorry but my point is, if we count everything that might cost there is usually not much freebies left.

          After all, AdMob ads don't use a lot of bandwidth, and you can always play in airplane mode.

  • Davo1111 on 24/10/2010 - 17:39

    because, from my logic, vote changing is autocratic. People should have their right to say what they want (constructive valid reasons… not trolling), regardless on how stupid it may sound to you and thus vote accordingly.

    but we still have to draw a line when how stupid is too stupid. It annoys people (both other users and reps) get neg voted when there are stupid reasons.

    Stupid reasons that i've seen in the past.
    - i dont like this company
    - its not free (expensive product)
    - im angry today

    • slowmo on 24/10/2010 - 21:45

      but we still have to draw a line when how stupid is too stupid. It annoys people (both other users and reps) get neg voted when there are stupid reasons.

      Stupid reasons that i’ve seen in the past.
      - i dont like this company
      - its not free (expensive product)
      - im angry today

      I understand where you are coming from, thats why I explicitly said "regardless on how stupid it may sound to you " people should be entitled to their opinion of the post/vendor, regardless on how everyone else think how stupid it sounds… yes, it's a fine line to walk.

      I would be okay if a -ve poster said "I don't like this company because it screwed up my order twice. buyer beware." but if it was something like: "it's dell." neg I will put him in one quiet corner to listen to rick rolls for 3 days. That's why I believe that there is a need to further establish what is considered an acceptable -ve reason, and what isn't.

      I want to point out that OZB deal posts do not have persistent memory, but people do, and people will always remember their past experiences with the vendor/seller, and their feedback would be useful (+ve or -ve). The onus is on the vendor/seller to cultivate goodwill so that -ves become +ves, not the mods nor the OZB sites.

      I can't remember from another thread I was reading about someone asking for a reason for +ve votes… I do believe it's a good idea, maybe you can experiment the sort of 'drop down' reasons box used previously for -ve votes to be in place for +ve votes… things like:
      - +1 because I like the sound of this
      - +1 I took up this deal
      - +1 This deal looks interesting, I will check it out later
      - +1 extremely rare find! +1 again!

  • Davo1111 on 24/10/2010 - 23:14

    rage, just wrote down a huge response, and wasnt logged in. I'll summarise what i wrote.

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/wiki/help:voting_guidelines

    those are the current rules, if you have any suggestions let me know.

    Basically we get criticism either way, whether we just leave the neg vote up or take away the vote. so i dont think we can win this one.

    Perhaps mods dont remove negs? and 3 neg voted comments in a row revoke your vote?

    • slowmo on 24/10/2010 - 23:48
      • some reason I can't reply to scotty's comment, is there a limit of replies allowed per subtree of replies?

      i'm going to quote scotty's reply here:

      So is the download of game. And the handsets that are required to play them? What about the cost of development of Android which is subsidised by Google, probably from the revenue from their online advertising arm, which the advertisers pay, which comes from the extra cost the consumers have to pay…
      Sorry but my point is, if we count everything that might cost there is usually not much freebies left.

      Thats stretching the point, the reason we have handsets is because we want to own one. That has nothing to do with downloading the softwares themselves. Neither do Google in the grand scheme of things.

      I am not after the suggestion that people/ozb have to do bean counting. I am saying, educate people to be able to discern what are clearly free, and which are the ones with strings attached. Ad-supported apps have their places but they should not exist in the new deals page as per your posting guidelines.

      After all, AdMob ads don’t use a lot of bandwidth, and you can always play in airplane mode.

      this is dangerous ground to stand, just like the other poster who suggesting rooting phones. All these are work-arounds, they do not solve the fundamental issue that the application is not free.

      Not to mention using ad-blockers are using the apps in a manner not intended by the original developer… I seriously don't want to get into that discussion.

      =======================================
      reply to Davo1111:
      Well, my standpoint is consistency, not sure if you noticed but I was talking about posting guidelines and posters failing to adhere (IMO) to the guidelines and the posts remains to exist. if you are okay with people posting freebie software of any sorts, then say so in the guidelines. I don't have issue with how you guys want run the websites, just be consistent?

      to be honest, i am not sure what is the purpose of the +ve and -ve votes and the report button.

      if people can't practice -ve voting freely in an educated manner, then why not just have +ve vote button?

      Just to clarify, end of the day, I don't expect to win or lose this 'posts', like i said before, I have no secret agenda, probably the only tiny vested interest is that I wish to see quality deals and freebies in OZB.

      If there is a need to rely on comments voting, then I suggest having traceable voting (yes, this would seriously impact your database size and possibly web loading)…
      otherwise, do seriously look at the karma system idea I posted a while back, which penalises the voter's overall karma every time he/she hits that -ve button. (Yes I recognise that it will be quite an overhaul of the webcode as well.)

      on the interim, you might want to have a read-only thread/folder where you dump all those -ve removed posts (which are not spam) and having that visible for the ordinary members to refer to as an example of why it was removed/binned. This would be easier to look out for sock puppet users as well I think.

      • posts should be removed for review/sandboxed if there are more than 10 -ves
      • posts should be removed for review/sandboxed if there's more than 5 reports and the poster temp-banned.
      • remove -ve voting from comments, they have no place there anyway, if someone is being a troll or abusive, the report button is there.
      • let the -ve votes for posts stay, and vote revoking isn't a good idea anyway, because its just vote 'tampering.' - if a posted deal is good, then naturally the number of +ve votes will go up. we shouldn't be worried about the +ve -ve vote ratio in this sense.
      • if a user comment gets flagged for 'abuse' for more than 5 times, he gets sandboxed for a day until a mod reviews the reason.

      all the above can be done automatically. the only thing to watch out for is to track the users who reported them, as there must be accountability to justify a temp-ban or perm-ban.

      imo: mods should spend more time reviewing posts and not votes. right now, I get the impression mods are forced to review votes and posts. which sucks tbh.

      I think have said what I needed to say, you guys can take my comments/feedback, think about it, ignore it or laugh at it. :)

      ps: just thought to clairfy..
      posts == deal posts, votes == +ve or -ve button, comments == replies to posted deals. , sandbox == a term i used when i was managing car forums… let the kids play in the sandbox first. ;)

  • Davo1111 on 25/10/2010 - 00:22

    some reason I can’t reply to scotty’s comment, is there a limit of replies allowed per subtree of replies?

    yeah we had to reduce the number of trees because it was getting rediculous.

    I have no secret agenda, probably the only tiny vested interest is that I wish to see quality deals and freebies in OZB.

    yeah, totally agree with you here.

    you guys can take my comments/feedback, think about it, ignore it or laugh at it. :)

    I think its a fair call, dw lol, we dont sit on the mod forum ridiculing members. :P

    The coding idea is interesting, obviously it would take more time for scotty to input.

    imho i'd be inclined to change idea number 1 to 5 negatives. Perhaps "positive" comments work against that, so its calculated as a total.

    i.e. -1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1 would bring to -4, but an extra -1 would pull the user over the line and automatically withdraw the vote?

    anyway, i'll write this up and place it in the mod forum for comment. See if we can reach some middle ground :)

    • slowmo on 25/10/2010 - 00:33

      yeah we had to reduce the number of trees because it was getting rediculous.

      you might want to allow at least the tree owner (the first replyer) to be able to conclude, it makes more sense that way. IMO.

      the idea #1 and #2 goes hand in hand.. because if you want to reduce number of neg votes threshold, then just go #2 directly… don't let -ve votes affect the post at all, but let # of reports affect the post.

      you won't have to worry about 100-ves and 101+ves situations. :)

  • Davo1111 on 25/10/2010 - 00:38

    you might want to allow at least the tree owner (the first replyer) to be able to conclude

    that was the original issue, bob and someone else having an argument. Ended up one word per line on my 16" screen lol

    I think it would be helpful if replies over the 4th tier just go underneath.

  • Bliind on 26/10/2010 - 06:38
    -3

    If you've got a problem then why not just leave instead of complaining about it.

    • slowmo on 26/10/2010 - 16:26
      +3

      ^^^
      excellent example of people who are not constructive and have NFI how (or want) to make things better.

      Got a problem with your job? Leave!
      Got a problem with your kids? Leave em!
      Got a problem with your family? Leave!

      heh. it's your life, live it the way you want. Definitely it's not the way I lead mine.
      If you have a problem reading this thread, leave!

      • scotty on 26/10/2010 - 23:13

        He heh. Sometimes when I got frustrated running this site I'll think "hey why don't you guys just leave"? :)

        Well. Thanks for the all suggestions here. I can't say I'll be able to implement them all, but hopefully the constructive suggestions from the community would continue to improve the site.

        • slowmo on 27/10/2010 - 04:27

          On the bright side, frustrations when voiced are valuable feedbacks, and all feedbacks are better than none. Its quite common sense to know that if you don't get feedback, chances are people have given up on you. :)

          There isn't a site/organisation that can please 100% of the people 100% of the time, it's naive/unrealistic to think one can achieve that. Wanting someone to 'just go away' is just a form of escaping,

          Hope my suggestions were of any use (if at all). I wouldn't mind coming up with logic flows to explain, but I probably shouldn't, since I am not the expert :)

          now back to lurk mode…
          poof

  • keongyip on 11/01/2011 - 19:39

    Hi everyone! Hope you're all well and those in QLD are safe what with the flooding and all.

    This is the first time I've come onto the forums after joining up a few months back and benefiting from a few of the deals, and just came across this thread. What some are saying, specifically the OP, is what I feel. There is a very negative community here on OzB. What could be worse than finding something very good and wanting to share, only to have it knocked back and yourself insulted by some idiots? I cannot say that I have been in that position because I have not posted any deals myself, but I have always been grateful towards others who have posted. Like someone said above, if you don't like it, leave. Simple! Like the deal? Then vote +ve.

    I've read a few comments above of some people suggesting better rating and reporting systems. I for one (this is MY opinion!) would like to see the -ve voting system removed. Only allow the community to vote +ve so that others get to judge for themselves if they like it. The -ve 'functionality' can then be replaced with a Reporting link that allows users to report a bad posting (ie. if the seller is spamming, or has been previously banned, etc etc etc) and mods get to decide what to do with it. The forum/commenting section of the Deals bit is great - it allows for lots of constructive discussion. I know there're a lot of things I've missed out and possibly some side to it that I haven't already considered, so open to comments.

    I visit this site a few times a day and while not the most active user, am grateful it is around and am very keen to stick around and hopefully contribute a bit more down the line. Let's not ruin a good thing but having too many turnoffs. Many different types of people and I've noticed the newer members are less active. SOME of those who have been around for a while are very much less tolerant and can be very rude. Consistency in the work the Mods do is also important, as is their 'job' or role in advising/reprimanding misdeeds. (BTW thank you to the mods for doing what they do in their own time)

    End of rant - thanks for reading! :)

    • keongyip on 11/01/2011 - 19:39

      Everyone I'm very sorry for bringing an old thread back. MY APOLOGIES - I'm such a moron!

    • Davo1111 on 13/01/2011 - 00:11

      It's ok to bring back an old thread. You were more than welcome to start a new thread with "observations" in them. :)

      It is in the todo list to replace the negative vote with something like "hide" or "bury" and not push such a negative connotation on the deal.

      As far as the "ozbargain" mob goes, its something thats currently been discussed between mods. If we notice someone going over the top, they do get sent to the penalty box. Because the moderation is run by volunteers, people can avoid the box, just because we are on at different times.

      The other issue is reports. We dont have time to read comments, so we heavily rely on user reports. If there is something offensive, report it. Otherwise we never know.

      Anyway, i must go to bed

      regards
      Davo

      EDIT: was trying to find the unpublished deal you posted (so i can see responses)…. can you remember what it was/who it was for?

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