Hi All,
Just wondering what is your thought of BITCOIN which is well over $15000 USD.
I was monitoring that since it was $1100. Now its 14x and i was thinking $#/+ that is expensive a year ago and now i am thinking the same.
Any thought what do you think of it.
[edit]
Its hit today $19230+ USD.
Yes, that was exactly what I wanted to say. But you were more eloquent to put it.
If BitCoin doesn't crash and isn't killed and isn't regulated…. it will continue to climb.
And after a long time (many years?) (decades?), it will hit a recognisable standard.
I believe Ethereum has the potential to catch up, and then, surpass BitCoin. But not now.
It's still early days for BitCoin, which means its even earlier days for Ethereum.
However, the biggest threat to Ethereum isn't BitCoin… its the establishment affecting BitCoin.
It's possible BitCoin could crash, let's say Mid-2018 to USD$1000, which would devastate Ethereum and many other AltCoins.
BitCoin might be able to rebuild etc etc, however, many altcoins will not and that includes Ethereum.
Basically, its a clash of standards. Bitcoin is the front runner, Ethereum is a distant second but could/would overtake it, if the standard becomes accepted by the masses and forces the governing bodies to adopt.
The first time I heard of Bitcoin and read into it was in 2013, back when I was broke. I realised that people were buying AMD's better value GPU's for "mining" and that's how I got into it. I checked it back and forth, and concluded that it could be a Ponzi scheme or something that would be halted. I predicted its demise around 6 times. I predict its more likely NOW that it will still demise. But now I see potential, the potential to gamble with the hive mind and profit from it. That's where I'm at with it.
The chinese are the main people who pumped up BTC price due to cheap power to generate BTC and also using it to take money out of China for other investments overseas. So You are on the right track as soon as governament bans it as an offence. It will drop significantly
If you bought BTC before, now its the time to sell
Its nothing like gold. Gold has intrinsic value and will always be sought after. BitCoins value is the limitation and versatility but eventually it will land back to $0 because there is no intrinsic value to it.
This is what I thought when it first came out. It's being used to launder money in China apparently so it keeps on going up up up. Once stricter regulations come it will drop like a bucket. Its surprising they are taking so long to plug such a giant hole in the financial system.
Ignoring the utility of gold in electronics and other places because of its properties, gold in itself has no value. Its value is only held because people think its valuable.
Thats how all fiat currency works, perception is what gives money value, theres no actual value in holding Australian paper notes or NZ or any other.
True - but the perception that gold has value goes back thousands of years. It is also worth remembering that the worlds central banks hold almost 20% of the total gold ever mined - so they see value in it. Bitcoin is currently a failed currency as no-one wants to spend it (remember the 2 pizzas a developer bought for 10,000 bitcoin in 2010 - that's around $90million per pizza now).
hahahah perception….right.
I don't think so mate. try telling that to you wife or girlfriend.
Ask her if she will be happy with a shiny copper ring instead of a gold one.
Gold will always be wanted till the end of time.
Gold is Tangible. Bitcoin is elf money. So what it's finite it's still elf money.
Yeah, I don't get why gold is valuable either.
It has a few niche uses, as you mention electronics because it can be stretched thin and used as bond wires in ICs, (silver is actually a better conductor) and since it doesn't oxidise is handy as a 'rustproof' coating'.
It is a rather useless metal for the most part.
ahh hello….Jewelry?????
Silver, platinum, rhodium, titanium, tungsten, wood, plastic, stainless steel, jade, garbage you find in the street etc…
I have a gold ring, I'm probably more attached to the stainless steel one I also wear (valued at $0).
Next you be telling me diamonds are rare. Pfft, I've got a 1 caret diamond in my toolbox.
If you're talking rarity, try rhodium. Last time I looked it was about about $10,000 an ounce, gold is positively cheap by comparison. Used a lot in jewellery as a plating (shiny, hard, doesn't corrode etc), like platinum it gets used a lot in high temperature chemical stuff, such as catalytic converters. Also mirrors as well,
There are very few uses (if any) of gold where another metal can't be substituted or even perform better. I mentioned IC bonding wires, but many chips are made using aluminium, even copper gets used these days.
Gold and diamonds are valuable because like BitCoin we're somehow convinced they have value.
Having value is different from being useful.
Are you buying gold, BitCoin etc because you have a use for them (and jewellery making is a perfectly fine reason to buy gold) or as some sort of greed-driven vague 'investment'?
@D C:
Gold is money not because it is rare but because it is plentiful.
Something that is rare cannot be money.
This is one reason why bitcoin can not last as a currency. Bitcoin can be divisible however so I am not surprised if it lasts a little longer.
Gold is a real thing, so you dont need to convince people its value, people may value it more or less but it will never be 0.
BitCoin has no intrinsic value so you must convince people that its qualities are valuable enough that you can think it is money, but it is not.
Not quite sure what your arguing here. Seems like you are just rubbishing everything. What do you consider real money?
Not quite sure what your arguing here.
You said gold was valuable because it can be used for jewellery. Well yes and so what, but that's not the reason it is "valuable".
What do you consider real money?
If by money you mean 'fiat currency', then BitCoin is money. It's no different to the Australian dollerydoo in that it is an agreed method which we can use to exchange goods & services - and considering everything except hookers & blow (well not always the hookers) is done virtually then we might as well use BitCoin.
(Money backed by a good that's considered valuable (like gold) is called commodity currency.)
At the moment BitCoin is valuable because it valuable, aka "what is a bubble?". Gold is really no different. If I gave you a lump of gold, what you you do with it?
@D C:
Yeh I agree with you on everything by fiat currency and bitcoin.
It all a bit of a laugh.
But gold as a commodity currency by definition means its valuable. like any commodity.
If you gave me a lump of gold I would be able to buy or trade it in any part of the world. Gold has proven over time that it is reliable in this way.
My point is, fiat currency and bitcoin will eventually go bust one day.
Gold cannot, that being said gold is stable, if you want to make or lose a quick buck then you need to gamble on bitcoin or shares etc.
But gold as a commodity currency by definition means its valuable. like any commodity.
Gold cannot, that being said gold is stable,
Rubbish.
And where are all these commodity currencies anyway?
That's the worlds longest Ponzi scheme, gold it only valuable because people keep thinking it's valuable. They're not entirely sure WHY it's valuable, but eh.
See also BitCoin, tulips, diamonds, dotcom stocks etc.
When the zombie apocalypse comes, which is going to be more valuable, your lump or gold or my stick? I can use my stick to hit zombies, hit you and take your gold (and then throw it away), dig holes for water and as a spear to kill a kangaroo for dinner.
What are you going to do?
@doodlebug:
Because you think you can trade your gold for one of my sticks, and I really need to get started on my stockpile.
But see, you've found a use for your gold! Force equals mass by velocity squared and halved and all that!
Tungsten or platinum would work better though. Lead is the best choice, you'd need twice as much but on the other hand lead is much easier to come by. Just how big of a lump to gold do you have?
maluable
That's a bad thing, gold is actually crap for jewellery which is why any you own will be an alloy of some sort. And good luck making a knife or spear point out of it.
and shiny
Now you're talking. That's actually handy, lasers use mirrors that are coated with gold. However they are easily damaged so something like molybdenum or rhodium are often used instead. Not quite as good performance-wise but the difference is trivial.
As the noblest of metals it's really good at not corroding, but a bit useless in practice as it's too soft and easily damaged.
Gold isn't totally useless, but it really doesn't live up to it's (very long running) hype. I suspect the Reptilians are behind this.
@D C:
Gold is nothing like bitcoin.
Diamond is in some ways, but it's still not exactly like bitcoin.
Gold primarily derives its value from history.
Gold jewelry was used as a sign of status - upper class vs lower class… far before it started to be used as currency and derived its value from this historic root.
Diamonds gained value through the debier family's actions combining clever marketing + controlled supply vs artificial demand.
Bitcoin has nothing.
You realise you just confirmed his point? His wife or girlfriend wants gold over copper as the perceives gold to be more valuable. If the world was telling her copper was the most amazing thing, she wouldnt want that crappy gold.
Gold primarily derives its value from history.
Not for everyone, the Aztecs thought it was worthless. They still used it as they liked the fact it was - as @bioset pointed out - malleable & shiny (+ didn't corrode) - but their attitude was similar to how we view tinsel: "Ohh shiny!" but no big deal when it winds up in the bin a few weeks later.
They were somewhat astonished as how the Spaniards went nuts over it.
You'll also note humanity had bronze and iron ages, but not a gold age.
@D C: Good points, but the Aztec didn't influence our society as it's run today.
Our influencers are the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Brits, etc…
All of these used gold as signs of status difference - i.e. reserved for priests, nobles, etc.
And I guess that did come from the fact that it's shiny and has a pleasant colour (for some… I don't really like the colour).
For industrial use, bronze, iron, etc are much more valuable, and hence are a turning point in our history from a technological point of view. Gold never had a great industrial use… it was a more social element. We did have a number of "golden age"s, although they weren't about the use of gold to advance our technology.
Similar to gold today would range from the likes of lamborghinis and hermes handbags down to the latest iphones and the like.
Things you wear or use to show off without parading around like a clown yelling "I'm better than you coz I own 50000 bitcoins".
Our history has shaped our society to have gold represent "i'm better than you", just as the de bier family has shaped our society to have diamonds represent "forever" (even though diamonds can be destroyed).
I sold my very small parcel yesterday for good profit. Been around long enough to know that taking profit off the table is good and holding onto assets that are 'going to the moon' can result in losing said profit. Am looking at the alts now as I suspect money to be heading in to those when when BC gets listed on the futures exchange in a couple of weeks. Expect the players to start shorting it.
Well done.
There are plenty who will have made good profits if they would just crystallise them.
Yeah, been there, done that. :)
A bird in the hand and all that. :)
My crystal ball says:
its going to slowly keep going up, and perhaps hit $13k-$15k, then on January 5-15, its going to crash down to like $9k.
If this transpires, its probably worth re-buying in Feb, but monitoring the stocks multiple times a day and also reading any mainstream coverage of the stuff for articles like this. You pretty much have to aim to predict the lows and sell on highs, its exactly like gambling, though with some skill/time invested (just like gambling), you can decrease your losses and increase your gains.
On this:
http://i0.wp.com/kunalonfintech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/…
I think its because there has been a dynamic shift at play.
Most (50%) of the miners and investors of Bitcoin were from China, but now the biggest investors are in USA.
It wasn't overnight, its transitioned itself from end of 2015 to the start of 2017.
It's holiday season in USA now.
I think once school resumes, its going to be "back to work" period for many Americans.
That means they will have less free time to focus on Bitcoin, and more stress time to focus on family + work.
So the Hive Mind will want to sell, and selling begets selling, so the Bt price will slump.
A similar phenomenon occurs in the stock market, its cyclic.
Again, just a hunch or educated guesstimate. Still requires you to observe it carefully.
Call it futures or whatever. It's still gambling, if you ask me.
Overall, I expect Bitcoin to die eventually and countries using blockchain cryptology technology to transform their old currency into the new format (with some customisations, of course). I think, maybe, it will get as high as $50k and stabilise there. Then it could spike up as high as $150k before crashing down to like $35k, and barely making it to $50k level. That is, if it doesn't crash even earlier or doesn't get killed earlier.
@Kangal: heh, maybe.. :) There's a nice gap in the chart at about the 6K ($6069 USD) level and I've noticed over the years that charts just LOVE to go back and close gaps. :)
@EightImmortals: Only equities tend to fill gaps and maybe currencies when they gap over the weekend.
I have no idea what gap you are talking about?, most likely it was one specific exchange you are looking at that had downtime around 6k, and if that is the case I would not hold much weight to it.
@Kangal: Bought it dirt cheap and sold off some to recoup my initial investment, now just HODL the rest.
@Kangal: hahaha, that's what i thought the first time i heard of it. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hodl
Already hit that figure. It’s a mad ride going up thousand or so dollars a day at the moment.
@Kalps:
Sorry I was talking in terms of USD, that's what we Aussies need to use as a base when talking about Bitcoin.
Otherwise, the conversion from Bitcoin to AUD is a lot less stable. Besides most people talking about Bitcoin talk using USD…
@Kangal: Upgrade the crystal ball.. Hit > $US19k yesterday. Is still sitting at > US$16k..
With this much irrational exuberance, no crystal ball is going to be reliable.
@iDroid:
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/historical-data…
It's never breached USD $19k, don't know where you're getting your information from.
It's still sitting/trending on USD$11,800… so, no, the old crystal ball is still accurate.
I'll get Crystal Ball 2.0 if the old one breaks, but thanks for the suggestion.
https://www.tradingview.com lookup COINBASE:BTCUSD, 07-Dec-2017 high of US$19,697
USD$11,800? It's still at $15,659 (and moving around) with a high today of $16,499..
Where is it $12K?
@iDroid:
Sorry, you're right. My widget/app was stuffed it was showing that it was updated but wasn't.
Note to self: use the direct websites.
Still, that's an outlier from CoinBase.
I suggest you stop using tradingview for the analysis, and CoinBase as your source.
You should stick to Bitfinex. Or you could use multiple (Bitfinex, BitStamp, CoinBase) which is best.
At the time of the outlier, it wasn't really worth USD$19,340… but actually worth USD$16,666.
(or 17117). And it was a short spike that lasted around 3 hours.
It's around the USD$14,800 mark, but fluctuating quite a bit the past 2days.
I'll update this post with Crystall Ball 2.0 once the market kicks the old one off the magic desk.
I prefer these sites:
https://bitcoinwisdom.com
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/
https://www.bfxdata.com/orderbooks/btcusd
Well done. Paper profits mean shit until you realise them.
I've been against bit coin since the start because how do you value something created in thin air?
I think you can still make money from BC, just make sure you exit at the right time. You don't want to be the greatest fool/greedy one holding the parcel.
This reminds me of the dot.com bubble.
We had a client who worked for a software company, his shares were worth $50m, then $100m. We told him to sell. He got greedy, didn't want to pay tax, etc.
A year later, it was pretty much worthless. His share broker must have told him to hold onto them because we found out that he was suing them. I think it was JB Were.
Lol you can't sue your broker if your shares crash. It's not his fault. The buck stops with the owner.
I agree.
He probably recieved some verbal advice to retain them, hence tried to sue them.
Loosing $100,000,000 is a very bitter pill to swallow.
one of my golden rule in investing, never be too greedy.
I've been against bit coin since the start because how do you value something created in thin air?
By its utility.
We value the current 'money' (fiat) quite highly and it's been created out of thin air since at least 1913 with the creation of central reserve banking. People are realising that (finally) and now the whole show is moving to digital currency. Might take a few years but the paper money show is over folks.
It wasn't created from thin air, the average cost of one bitcoin is $1000 USD in power/hardware/software costs.
Jesus people are clueless lol.
Paper profits mean shit until you realise them.
I've been against bit coin since the start because how do you value something created in thin air?
Do you realize that real money is no difference? It's just a piece of plastic.
Even worse, most of your money is most likely not even on plastic, but just a number on your banks hard drive.
There are many reason to not trust bitcoin, but yours don't make too much sense.
Wish I took my own advice.
I give the best advice when it's not my money that's involved. I am conservative and risk-averse with my own money. I don't know how to change that.
I give good advice sometimes sometimes I'm just too tired to take it lol..
I have the answers but not the self esteem lols
Funny thing is, I don't even remember making that post under that El Grande name, though, I'm sure they're my words!
It's a bubble. Not saying you can't make money still but it will pop eventually. Can't tell you exactly when though.
It can collapse tomorrow or go to 30k or even 50k but eventually it will all collapse.
Look into the Dutch Tulip bubble.
Bitcoins really does give you a good idea of the illusion of money - it's literally created out of thin air!!
early days..bubbles can go on for years..reap the rewards now and get out in time
The dotcom bubble was worth 10 trillion..crypto is currently only worth $340b
it was 300b this time yesterday - it's now over $430b.
Ohh well, our housing market alone worth $7.3 trillion and counting.
Is this in comparison to traditional money which has inherent value? /s
Traditional money used to have true value but since the Gold Standard no longer exists it is all an illusion. Central banks can just print money essentially whenever they like. When cryptocurrencies eventually burst hopefully this will mean people realise the inherent worthlessness of money.
So the things I value are education, assets and time. Money is a tool and we need it for the world to work efficiently but never is it all about amassing heaps of money without doing anything with it.
Yep I agree. I would probably add health in there too.
And the value of many traditional assets are still highly variable. (e.g. your house in a war torn country won't be worth much.) I guess cryptocurrency is an attempt to store value in a way that isn't as controlled by governments/central banks.
The difference is practically everybody in Australia trusts the Australian Dollar, while basically nobody really trusts BTC.
We could both start our own "money" but it would be worthless because next to nobody would want it.
The Aussie dollar is highly unlikely to drop 71% overnight.
There's a difference between a tulip (which has almost no utility value) and a highly secure, global payment and contract system separated from any central bank or government (which has incredible utility value). The fact that it was created out of 'thin air' is irrelevant - by that very loose, turn-of-phrase definition the internet was created out of 'thin air'.
finally someone who understands
Ninja, the internet may have been created out of thin air but no-one is selling the internet for insane amounts of money not related to the inherent value it brings. Blockchain is not by the looks of it a patent protected technology, hence all sorts of alternative cryptocurrencies are springing up.
The internet is an organised collection of information that brings great utility and value to people. What does Cryptocurrency bring to the table that makes it worth 25k instead of $1? You mentioned not regulated by government as one of its virtues. Well where do you think money's value comes from now that we're no longer on the Gold standard? - The same said governments that provide law and order and make it desirable to transact and hold in the currency!
I think governments will begin regulating or even banning Cryptocurrencies outright over time. A recent article put it perfectly - all it takes is one terrorist incident funded in part by Cryptocurrencies and they will find themselves regulated and banned. What do you think will happen to the value of the currency then?
That's not to say there's no money to be made still. But the thing is it is quite clear that the stable value of cryptocurrency in the end will be much less valuable than it is supposedly worth now.
Not sure about the govern part, but ASX will sure blockchain tech in their system in next March
There are a lot of different block chain technologies about, with interesting use cases and problems that that solve for.
It's not patented.
Anybody can spin up their own.
I've worked on three different block chain projects that were meant to solve real world problems in a commercial environment.
My issue with bitcoin is that it is pathetically slow for transactions to post across the network.
Visa can handle 50,000+ transactions per second.
Bitcoin <10 transactions per second.
It is costly to perform a financial transaction. Who is going to be a $1 can of drink and get charged a $5 bitcoin handling fee? Or realize in a few year years he bought $90,000 pizzas…
There are speedups, forks, etc to make it faster.
My colleagues at work are running mining rigs, etc. One has been going for a few years. I thought it was like dutch tulips. Their response is that in the old days, only the rich new about tulips. Now everyone in the world knows about bitcoin and if everyone put 1% of their wealth in bitcoin… I think we're all gambling on the greater fool.
Ethereum can handle more. If it becomes more popular, the value of Bitcoin as a store of wealth will diminish.
Too me it seemed wasteful to use when it costs a boatload of hardware and electricity to generate the mathematical proof of work. When mining become too expensive as the rate of new coin growth slows, then there will be just a bunch of distributed computers that will have to earn a rate of return for the folks to run via transaction fees. Otherwise those folks will turn off their computers and you don't have a network to run the ledger and sign the transactions.
Then again, I am no guru. Maybe there is some deeper magic that I don't get. But the crypto, etc is pretty well known.
@jimbo jones: Yeah this is a one kind of wagon Im gladly to missed. As always, sale shovel in a gold rush time !
@jimbo jones: Bitcoin being slow to transact isn't even a problem. The most fundamental problem is that it has no value whatsoever. Even if bitcoin was the fastest, it would still have no value as 0 x anything = 0.
You don't need to pay a $20 fee to give someone a tulip.
remember when we all got emails and stuff about buying hundreds of bitcoin for cheap all those years ago? this guy thought it was some kind of scam or that it would fail, so I didn't invest…meanwhile 3 of my mates…i fail at life.
Its ok, you did your best.
I didn't buy any either.
haha thanks mate…makes me feel a tad better but still poor
Don't feel bad. I read a story on reddit where someone heavily invested and it didn't work out for him and he offed himself.
no shit…..wow.
I believe a couple things happened to this one fellow. Mt Gox (bitcoin bank) got hacked and lots of coins were stolen and he may have also cashed out when it was cheaper.
I've heard of people using thousands of BC to buy pizzas years ago….So they'd be kicking themselves.
True get rich or die tryin' style.
That person probably was buying bitcoins when they were fiddy cents.
+1 know a person who got caught up in some investment scheme based on Bitcoin, lost a lot of money for a lot of people and is now dead because of it.
There was a deal on Ozbargain two years ago for $5 of bitcoin from Circle (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/196172).
I still have it and it's now worth about $500 :) Great bargain!
Wow, nice!
Damn I think I remember this deal and I couldn't be bothered.
Silly me!
Same! Bugger…
Instaban!
Good find…
Time to sell?
Forgot and checked my account. Best deal ever.
What bursts first….. our Housing bubble or Crypto bubble? Sip on some bubble tea while you watch it crash and burn.
Good question, indeed
Watching the price go up is ridiculous.
I bought some last Saturday at 15k AUD and now its shooting past 25… so like 30-40% in 5 days
See you on the moon ;)
Totally agree it's insane. I also threw some spare cash on bitcoin a few days ago and it's gone up over 50%. At this rate I could withdraw the original stake in a couple of days and just be playing with the profit…. My only regret is I tried to be smart and put some money on altcoin - etherium, cardano etc. Should have dumped the lot onto bitcoin. I overestimated the intelligence of the market. I now realise they are a herd of muppets.
If BTC crashes, wealth will move back into ALTS. Just hold them too.
Yep - definitely agree. When BTC falls into a screaming heap it will probably take everything with it but the major altcoins will come back.
@Kangal:
BTC has brand name recognition and first mover advantage which is true. Yet BTC is only a currency, nothing more nothing less. Ethereum, however, is a lot more interesting and (IMHO) has the potential to disrupt a range of industries. Being a currency AND a platform for blockchain based smart-contracts I reckon (I may be completely wrong here) it is the better of the two in terms of utility.