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Raspberry Pi 400 (Raspberry Pi 4 4GB with Keyboard) 1.8GHz $106.26 Delivered @ element14

1090

Raspberry Pi 400 - cheaper than Amazon and other places.

Note this version of the Pi4 is stock clocked at 1.8Ghz (rather than 1.5Ghz for the board version) and can easily be overlocked to 2.147Ghz (maximum allowed without voiding warranty) without breaking a sweat. This is much better thermal performance than board version + even active cooling (eg, Argon One case). In fact it can go to 2.3Ghz and still stay under 80C ie no throttling - not recommended though given it will void your warranty on the Pi.

You also save more $$ without having to buy a case etc.

See review here: https://tutorial.cytron.io/2020/11/02/raspberry-pi-400-therm...

Difference compared to standard Pi 4:

  • 1.8Ghz standard vs 1.5Ghz (also C0 stepping vs B0 on standard board)
  • much better thermal / overclock performance
  • no 3.5mm audio out (audio via HDMI only)
  • 1 USB 2.0 port vs 2 on the standard board (so only 3 USB ports altogether)
  • no DSI display or CSI camera port
  • built-in power button

I've used it to build RetroPie recently (given lockdown nothing much to do!) and runs very smooth.

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  • +12 votes

    If anyone's wondering, this is a completely different board design to the standard Pi 4, so you can't remove the board inside and have a regular Pi.

  •  

    whats the best way to power these?

  • +15 votes

    I bought one of these for the kids. While it is impressive for the price, it was not powerful enough to render Reading Eggs animations in Chrome without stutter.
    Also the keyboard provides a poor typing experience and after a short while keys started falling off and could not be reattached.

    •  

      Could always attach another keyboard via USB or Bluetooth as a workaround. Just more fiddle to tuck the keyboard case out of the way

      • +6 votes

        Why even bother when you can start with a more ergonomic and reliable keyboard and a standard Pi?

        •  

          first thing I thought when I saw the price tbh.

    •  

      Probably doesn't help - but did you try max overclock? I think the default clock is like 700Mhz?

      •  

        The CPU is not powerful enough and the GPU, it depends on how you encode the video (if the video is encoded in a format not supported by Pi's GPU hardware decoder, then Pi4 would really struggle). At this price, can't expect much. The CPU is weaker than ones used in old mobile phones. Also, I don't get why even after 4 iterations (this is Pi4), Pi foundation still elects to choose a CPU/GPU that doesn't support decoding all common formats (only selected few).

        Overclock, does this thing has a fan inside? I am not overclocking my Pi4 and I already have a fan on it. It turns on when the temperature reaches a certain level. Put it this way, even when mostly idle (other than running home assistant server in the background), the fan still turns on frequently to cool it down a bit.

        • +1 vote

          Check the review above. Pi 400 is better thermal performance even compared to the best Pi 4 case with active cooling + Alum case (ie Argon One).

          • +1 vote

            @RayEarth2133: That's because it has a slightly newer revision of the CPU inside. Tear down shows no active cooling.

            I am just trying to think of reasons to use this as a workstation / desktop replacement. You still need to connect this to a display. If you want to really make it run faster, you would use an USB 3 SSD (then, does this form factor makes sense). No power switch, no reset switch (so if you want those, then you still need to get a cable on the power input and you will need to tap into the GPIO).

            • +1 vote

              @netsurfer: It doesn't need active cooling when the heatsink/metal plate the chip it's attached to is the size of the keyboard. Plenty of surface area to dissipate the heat.

            • +1 vote

              @netsurfer:

              I am just trying to think of reasons to use this as a workstation / desktop replacement.

              Desktop? That IS uncommon, but my mum likes her Pi4 desktop, because it does email and facebook just fine, and googles facts, repair advice, and recipes while only taking up 'monitor space'.

              These AIO models; Being solid state, they run things like CNC machines really well in dusty workshops.
              Genuinely, when you have 5 or 6 different 'tools' (like sticker cutters, CNC, engravers, etc) these are WAY cheaper than dedicated passively cooled 'actual machines', and keep your power bill lower.

              They're also amazing on houseboats or in caravans, where the only requirements are 'Facebook and Porn' (which is what most clients are looking for).
              With a 1Ghz overclock, and more importantly an SDcard overclock, these boot quickly, show porn just fine, and don't drain your camper battery.

              Needless to say, I've installed MANY for clients, and have 4 Pi's running in my house, 2x on TV's for netflix and streaming and such (because they support HDMI control, so I don't need a keyboard which is nice), one runs my firewall, and a pihole instance, and one is in my bathroom, along with an old 'digital photo frame', for porn. They both live happily in ziplock bags to stay dry. Wife likes watching TV while in the tub also; sometimes there's a livestream going on that you just can't miss (but it's wash time). It's all win-win, when you can complete entire projects for under $100.

              And if they fail? It's under $100!

              •  

                @MasterScythe: Everyone's situation is different. My parents are used to iPads and smart phones for years. About 2-3 years ago, I upgraded the family PC to SSD and hoping to impress my parents, but when I asked them whether they felt the PC is much faster, they said it's okay (because they are used to the solid state storage in phones and tablets).

                Personally, I don't enjoy using Pi 4 as a desktop myself so I cannot let my family members use it. This form factor does make initial setup easier. Unfortunately, for me, bought too many deals thanks to OZB, I have too many wireless keyboards.

                Don't get me wrong, it's good to see Pi 4 has a proper gigabit ethernet, and okay USB 3. However, that was back in 2019. I just wish Pi foundation comes up with something faster and better, instead of keep re-hashing, tweaking Pi4 into different form factors. Last year, an OZBer asked me to test some 4K video playback on LibreELEC (on Pi4), it wasn't pleasant at all.

      • +1 vote

        Even after overclocking to the maximum possible frequency of 2.2Ghz the HTML5 animations (not video) were still stuttering.

        •  

          There's a world of things to try here;
          First of all, being Linux, give Firefox a shot, it's way more sleek than chromium.
          Secondly, you'll want to try enabling (or disabling, whichever it is) the hardware acceleration in the browser.

          Assuming you needed to enable it, you can then dig into the firefox flags, and further tweak what is\isn't accelerated.

          I manage a smooth 720p on literally anything I've tried on a Pi3, so it's absolutely doable.

          •  

            @MasterScythe: Tried Firefox, same. Enabled all hardware acceleration features in Chromium. Again this is not compressed video playback, so video hardware decoder doesn’t help. Installed arch on an Intel i3 and all HTML animations are butter smooth, so I concluded it’s the CPU/GPU on the Pi.

            •  

              @kackstelze: I mean, if you went to that much trouble, I assume you opened some form of task manager? What was maxing out? CPU or GPU?

              It's just odd, because Youtube for example, is an HTML5 site, and it runs butter smooth.

              EDIT: I just want and had a look at that website; it's not so much the HTML5 that I think is hitting you, it's likely there was Javascript running on it (all the pages are FULL of it).
              Your best bet would be to run NoScript and just enable the ones needed for functionality.

              That's not a 'lean' written site at all. I don't think the Pi was the problem, I think its non-optimised code.

              • +1 vote

                @MasterScythe: CPU was maxed out in “top”. YouTube doesn’t do full screen HTML animations with sound though, and the video they serve is GPU accelerated on the Pi.

                I spent a good amount of time tinkering before I gave up on it. Really wanted the Pi to be the kids computer.

                I wouldn’t blame reading eggs that their code is too inefficient to run on my very weak Pi while even the cheapest iPad has no issues with it.

            •  

              @kackstelze: I think it's a little unfair to compare this board with an i3. Atom certainly, celeron maybe

              •  

                @axcairns: It's fair if price is similar for a similar setup.

              •  

                @axcairns: I3's can be significantly weaker than atoms though.

                16core with 32MB of cache in modern Atoms is nothing to sneeze at.

                Even the 8 core 2016 model Atoms were pretty rad.

  • +1 vote

    I have one of these to use for pimiga. It works a treat but I haven't started using it in earnest for playing some old Amiga games.

    Does anyone know of decent joystick options to use with this for playing some old Amiga titles?

    Cheers

  •  

    What would you use it for?

    • +5 votes

      Retro computer - C64/Amiga

      •  

        Sweet, thanks

  •  

    Hi all,

    Could I ask what are the good uses for these?

    I'm assuming maybe game emulation?

    Thanks in advance :)

    • +5 votes

      Yes, a game console and

      1, a Pihole + Unbound DNS server (Docker)
      2, a NAS with OpenMeidaVault
      3, an android TV console

      You can even run Win10 for arm on it.

  • +1 vote

    i dont get these things at all.

    used optiplex is about the same price, a bit bigger, yet so much more grunt.

    is this for people who enjoy how little cpu power they have?

    • +1 vote

      well in comparison to an older comparably priced x86 machine, it uses a fraction of the power so you don't feel bad about leaving it running. it works as a very decent low power server for things like ad blocking at the dns level (pihole), homebridge for your iot stuff, or basic file serving via a usb hdd. decent machine for kids as well. ultimately though i guess if you personally don't see a use, then it's not for you and that's ok?

    • +2 votes

      I think it's all about the size and the power consumption mostly. Sometimes even a Celeron cpu is overkilled for a small project. And Pi4 could be PoE, very easy to deploy.

      •  

        wait. what exactly is a celeron cpu overkill for?

        serious question

        •  

          Which Celeron CPU are we talking about here? If it is a cheap Optiplex, it is second hand I presume. Does it support 4K/60Hz?

          The main reason for going Pi4 is really its low power usage and the form factor (that's why I am not sure I really like this keyboard form factor). It is unfortunate that there isn't really an Android box that's as widely supported as Pi4. Yes, you can use a Celeron running linux and yes you can get PCIe graphics card if you want to.

          Pi4's usage is 2.7W idle, 6.4W heavy load, compared to most efficient Optiplex, which is about 8.5W idle. Yes, the reality is that you won't be rich making that kind of electricity saving. I get people saying you could run PiHole on Pi Zero or Pi Zero W, but really? does it really make sense to run it on a device that doesn't even support gigabit ethernet (I get our NBN is subpar, but still…). Certainly, a Celeron is more powerful (think about all those Synology NASes… people want the Celeron based ones).

          The reality is that we want both Intel and Pi foundation to come up with much faster CPU in low power range. No doubt if you are after a low cost server, Celeron is the less painful of the two (speed wise). I am just not sure whether you can get a new Optiplex at the same price point.

          •  

            @netsurfer: that's what I mean. the power saving vs CPU grunt difference is dismal

            the equation doesnt add up, for lets say, 1/3 power usage you will get 1/10 of CPU power lol

            get a NUC for efficiency, or mac mini, or even old macbook in clamshell.

            and you play the 4k/60hz card? with this potato. what could this Pi do in 4k? draw a bash terminal? lol

            •  

              @millusions: If you have H.265 videos, it is okay. Problem is the micro HDMI port is annoying. I do have decent HDMI cables (due to having monitors, TVs and devices needing decent HDMI cables). It just doesn't feel that comfortable to me buying quality micro HDMI to HDMI cables. You cannot use el cheapo ones as they won't work at 4K/60Hz.

              Again, you can tease Pi4 all you want, but Intel has been screwing us over with HDMI in the embedded GPU. Even 8th gen CPU requires the DisplayPort to HDMI hack to achieve HDMI 2.0.

              NUC - again, I get the idea, but if we are talking about 8th gen or above, we are not exactly talking about energy efficient setup. Also, those NUCs can do more useful things instead of just home server.

        •  

          https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B08XX4JBMW/?coliid=I2646HM7Q2I9...

          This Celeron J4125. My idea was that sometimes you don't need a powerful CPU to run a project, even a 2.7GHz J4125 is too much.

          •  

            @Garcia: LOL, yeah, that's the thing with brand new Celeron based devices, prices are too high.

            As for J4125 being too powerful, I disagree. Intel has been abusing its position. We haven't seen proper CPU performance leap from Intel for years. Reality is even J4125 is too slow to my liking. As for Pi4 or this Pi 400 (which some people think the extra CPU clock speed makes a big difference), the bootup is slow. Sure, we can workaround it, but it doesn't mean it's great.

    •  

      Power consumption, form factor, and novelty. I got a pi zero w and left it to collect dust without no practical use. And I also got a linux arm board running as my edge router. These arm boards are not for everyone. If you are happy with your optiplex, you should stick with it, until we have some powerful arm chip like M1 in these dev board.

    •  

      is this for people who enjoy how little cpu power they have?

      Even with older computers, it's hard to make them fully solid state.
      So if you want a PC in a paint booth, or a CNC room, or even just your shed, they gum-up with dust and waste SO QUICKLY with literally any sort of fan.
      Sure you can GET passive cooling for those machines, but the work and cost is excessively more.

      Also good for audio PC's because once again, zero fan noise for a silent listening experience (assuming you're using an external DAC).

      There's a world of uses; especially when you take the AIO form factor and power consumption into account.
      I've seen a bunch of these installed full time in LED smart-advertising signs in the CBD.
      Just open the cabinet, and the keyboard and whole PC is 'just there'.
      I mean, yeah, a classic Pi is smaller again, but the AIO form factor means their technicians don't need to carry equipment.

      • -2 votes

        Sure, for those who bought these, of course we can find way to use it. However, let's not sugar-coat this too much. The CPU is weak and even an android box using an old/cheap mobile phone chip can beat Pi 4/400. There is technically sufficient space to put full size HDMI on this and I think the camera port is not available.

        You could get by with just a keyboard on linux I guess, but if you really want to use Pi 4/400 with a display, most people would want a mouse as well, so would have been nice to have a trackpad on this. I know Pi 4 can play H.265 4K videos, but frankly, it is annoying to only playback those on Pi 4 when other toys do a much better job and not picky on video formats.

        Also, let keep quiet on Pi 4's WiFi performance… Let's be honest here, if it weren't due to other competing devices, we wouldn't have seen some of the improvements Pi foundation made to Pi 4 vs Pi 3.

        • +1 vote

          Do you know what Raspberry Pi goals are? It is a charity designed to help people, mainly children, around the world learn programming cheaply. Not to be a high performing device.

          https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/

    •  

      With the RPi, you can use it to upgrade a TV to become a smart TV, powering it from the TV's USB port. So you only need a USB cable, a HDMI cable, and a bit of double-sided foam tape to mount the RPi on the back of the TV (perhaps get a cheap case as well). And you'll also want a wireless keyboard with trackpad.

      Not sure if you can power a RPi4 from the TV's USB port, but certainly some of the "lighter" RPis can.

      The RPi seems to keep running just fine, even though it's power gets killed when the TV is turned off.

      And unlike smart TVs, the RPi's OS and apps are easily upgradable.

      • +1 vote

        Not sure if you can power a RPi4 from the TV's USB port, but certainly some of the "lighter" RPis can.

        They usually manage OK if you have one of those USB splitter devices you used to see to power external HDD's before they became more efficient (2 USB ports, 1 with only power pins); but you need to do an "overvolt -1" (negative = undervolt) otherwise it still trys to draw too much.

        The Pi4 is a hungry boy for a credit card PC; but hey, well worth it.

  •  

    Can you add hats or other cards to this?

    •  

      The direction of the GPIO pins are flipped (to accommodate for some of the hats so they will be facing upward, instead of downward). Do need to check the individual hats to see if they are compatible.

  •  

    I have a pi400, but how awesome would one be with 16GB ram and m.2 slot. For say $200-250.

    Very capable desktop machine right there or a retro emulator dream machine.

    • +1 vote

      Argon One has a case that gives you an m2 slot so you can add a 8gb pi 4 and nearly be there. Albeit USB 3.0 speed.

      Having said that, RetroPie emulators bottleneck is CPU speed not ram. Eg even at 2ghz+ still can't do ps2 emulation

      •  

        Yep both my 8GB RPI4 and Pi400 are SSD usb3 boot. Maxes out about 400MB/sec. 16GB and nvme SSD would do me as a general purpose machine running Ubuntu, that could double as a Amiberry machine as well.

    •  
  •  

    Such a good idea. I’ve been looking to run a basic php program web facing inside of docker. Would this do the job? Alternatively I have an old intel nuc, is there some sort of basic Linux distro or something I could install to run the most basic docker installation that will allow me to install a php program that’s web facing and secure without doing much messing around? The data on it isn’t anything I need to really protect. Just want to save $5 a month I’m spending on Vultr currently.

    Edit: I have a static IP so I can redirect a cheap xyz domain to it and be able to do it easily enough if possible too. Don’t think I’ll need a DNS server for that?

    Edit: Alpine Linux? RancherOS?

    • +1 vote

      If you are asking these questions, you might want to look at Windows Subsystem for Linux first:

      https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

      On the docker side, do the docker images you plan to use have Arm version? Are you going to run 64-bit OS on this Pi 400 (Pi 64-bit OS might be still in beta)? Or, you want to play it safe and run 32-bit version? If latter, would that limit your choices on docker images you could run.

      If all you want to do is php, do you really need to run docker? Or, you just prefer something someone has already set it up for you?

      •  

        Thanks for the feedback. Researching led me down the Rabin hole and before I knew it, I’ve setup Ubuntu server 18.04. I’ve setup docker and setup the application I wanted - Overrseerr… was wrong about PHP, definitely something else but works great and is web accessible:)

    • +1 vote

      Alternatively I have an old intel nuc, is there some sort of basic Linux distro or something I could install to run the most basic docker installation

      Puppy Linux can run docker, and will boot from a CD or DVD, making it quite secure. But I assume you'll need an external CD or DVD drive for your NUC?

      Puppy Linux is unique in that you install it to a multi-session CD/DVD, and then any additions you make to it are added to the CD/DVD as required. When you are happy with your set-up, I believe you can fixate the CD/DVD so no more sessions are possible, or you can just fill the rest of the space on the CD/DVD with random data.

      More info here, I haven't used it myself though: https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=119037&...

      •  

        Thanks mate. Went with Ubuntu server but testing for now. Puppy Linux is a new one l haven’t heard of so definitely will check it out cheers

        • +1 vote

          I should add that you don't HAVE to install Puppy Linux on a CD or DVD, that's just one of the options, the standard install is to HDD or USB stick. But installing it to CD or DVD gives you a read-only system, there's no way for a computer virus to get onto the boot drive.

          I've been using Puppy Linux for years, it's only docker that I haven't used.

          •  

            @Russ: Thanks for that. I would be going the install route as these nucs are bare bones. I’ve been playing around with Ubuntu setup and it’s pretty damn solid. I’m still keen to try puppy just for fun so I’ll deploy it on a test VM or something later down the track. My friend, if you’ve never tried Docker I highly recommend it. It’s incredible. I’m actually going to go down the route of consolidating my few websites and every test bed I have into 2 Vultr servers. One prod and one dev for $10 a month. Once that is setup I’ll save money and have better overall performance. Then try out Puppy on the NUC. Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

            •  

              @snagseb: If you're happy with Ubuntu, stick with that. Puppy Linux is pretty minimalistic compared to Ubuntu. Its main features are:

              • it will run on anything, even ancient 15-year-old hardware. And still give you a responsive PC, even running on hardware that would grind to a halt with a modern version of Windows. I'm currently running it on an AMD Athlon 64 X2 processor with 2GB RAM.
              • for a live-cd Linux, it boots to GUI faster than any competitor.
              • with the live-CD boot, you don't even need a HDD. So it's perfect if you manage PCs for older people. Even if they manage to screw up the settings, it's back to normal at the next boot. (But you'll want to disable its "save back to CD" option at shutdown, I can tell you how to do that).
              •  

                @Russ: Wow AMD Athlon! that brings back memories lol. Still wouldn’t mind playing around with it just for fun. Amazing what can be done with docker these days, truly incredible.

  •  

    Has anyone used it for DOS emulation, l ordered one last week and trying to figure out DOS games and Amiga emulation on it.

  •  

    So does this come with US power? Also any cables?