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[VIC] HECS Fee Paid for Students Who Agree to Teach in Secondary Government School for 2 Years after Grad @ Victoria Government

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[VIC] HECS Fee Paid for Students Who Agree to Teach in Secondary Government School for 2 Years after Grad @ Victoria Government
Go to Deal
HamBoi69 on 03/10/2023 - 06:57 vic.gov.au (2338 clicks)
Last edited 04/10/2023 - 13:01 by 1 other user

After the last deal post was unpublished for being too early, and given today marks 90 days until January 1st next year, I figure we can finally share this bargain.

From media release

An investment of up to $93.2 million will provide new scholarships to support teaching degree students with the cost of studying and living – joining the Labor Government’s Free Nursing initiative, which began this year to boost the state’s pipeline of healthcare workers.

The scholarships will be available to all students who enrol in secondary school teaching degrees in 2024 and 2025, with final payments if they then work in Victorian government schools for two years after they graduate – supporting around 4,000 future teachers each year.

The total scholarship for students who complete their studies and then choose to work in government secondary schools will match the HELP fees charged by the Commonwealth Government for Commonwealth Supported Places – $18,000 for a four-year undergraduate program or $9,000 for two years of postgraduate study.

Enjoy!

Education Scholarship Undergraduate

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closed Comments

        • JeffOz on 03/10/2023 - 09:19
          -1

          you should be allowed to choose. The taxpayer shouldn't have to subsidise your choice

      • OzzyBrak on 03/10/2023 - 11:43
        +1

        Schools are still catchment based right, and you need to be rich to live in the good school suburbs. This won't be some everyone is equal utopia.

        • czxbnb on 03/10/2023 - 16:08

          I don't see property price with some fancy catchment like Berwick, Glen Waverley and Doncaster East are more expensive than Canterbury or Toorak.
          A good school catchment might bump up the property price for 300-400k

    • pr0o on 03/10/2023 - 08:57
      -4

      What's wrong with the conditions? I work in school as an IT staff member but our teachers look happy lol

      • smartazz104 on 03/10/2023 - 09:05
        +3

        Just look.

      • FredAstair on 03/10/2023 - 09:36
        +3

        i hate to say but thats a naive way to look at things bud

      • ruthlesskid on 03/10/2023 - 09:38
        +3

        Come back when you have spoken to them on happy hour end of term arvo 🫠.
        Teachers are the most compliant professional cohort, most wont show their dissatisfaction on surface. 😪

    • Carmen Sandiego on 03/10/2023 - 09:09
      +3

      As someone who has done already all of the 4 years of a B.Teach, the last option really doesn't work.

      The VCE scores for people are there to scale people on a measurement of "how much can someone cram information and regurgitate it in an exam environment?"

      Personally, I had a lot of education struggles, especially when it came time for exams, hence why my score isn't the best.

      Also, I see a lot of post HS people burn out really quickly after getting into university because it's such a different teaching model - there's more focus on individual thought and a lot of high achievers can't handle that.

    • askvictor on 03/10/2023 - 10:15

      Points 1 and 2 are exactly right. Though just doing those will take a long time to increase the demand at high-school-graduate level. You probably also need shorter-term incentives like this, but this incentive by itself will do exactly what you say.

      Point 3 should be taken care of by points 1 and 2. The way the university entrance system generally works is demand/rank driven - if there's high demand for a course, the requirements are higher. Additionally, our current high school leaving certificates are a really bad judge of whether someone will be a good teacher; particularly someone who will be a good teacher over the next decade or two, where technology will be changing everything (even now there's a large bias towards memorising facts, which is kind of a useless skill considering the internet). Alternately, change the entry requirements to not be based purely on your rank, but via other skills more relevant to the work (e.g. interviews, group tasks, etc).

    • Korban Dallas on 03/10/2023 - 11:53
      -1

      Our tenant teaches at high school and she's on her P plates.

      She looks 17.

      • BartholemewH on 04/10/2023 - 01:20
        +2

        How could you be a police officer? Show me your badge. You look 12. I went to school with your dad.

        • Korban Dallas.
    • Bargain Slut on 03/10/2023 - 22:22

      Dont fully agree.

      I'd suggest drastically increasing the conditions and mildly increasing the pay with bonuses that are paid every 5 years based on cumulative years of service. If the hours werent fkd and teachers could actually just teach and not deal with all the other bullshit - then the money isn't all that subpar when adjusted for holidays.

      No need to (profanity) with the entry requirements just make the degree challenging enough to pass. At the end of the day, I dont remotely buy the idea that a mark you got when you were a kid should define the rest of your life. Schools just have to have the ability and willingness to terminate underperformers.

  • yaonao on 03/10/2023 - 07:23
    +18

    It's a trap!

    • tessel on 03/10/2023 - 07:48
      +38

      Bloody oath it is. Engage Rant. The majority of schools are an absolute nightmare to teach in now. No, not all but the majority. Parents no longer parent and behavioral management takes away from already limited class time. There's (profanity) all funding and on top of that there is a tsunami of paperwork that has to be done regarding feedback to students and "professional development" which is less useful than most TikTok videos. The stats do vary but anywhere between 30% to 50% of new teacher graduates leave the profession within the first 5 years and a large portion of these are teachers in STEM areas. On top of that society thinks teachers only work 9am to 3pm and get 12 weeks off a year to lay on the beach or make money on OnlyFans. Anyone considering getting into teaching please volunteer for a semester or two at your local school. You really need to have teaching in your blood. It's not an easy career choice where you can make bank and live happily anywhere there is a school. Having said all that, teachers play a critical role in society today but society's "someone else's fault" attitude has resulted in a once great profession being the scapegoat for just about anything that goes wrong in schools. /End Rant.

      • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 09:54
        +5

        The majority of schools are an absolute nightmare to teach in now.

        My wife is a teacher. She agrees with everything you said.

      • CheapBrah on 03/10/2023 - 10:07
        -5

        So if it's not "9am to 3pm and get 12 weeks off a year" what is it?

        I'm always skeptical about the "long hours", is it actually long hours compared to many private sector office jobs that include "reasonable overtime"? Or is it just "long hours" compared to other state government employees like firefighters with 200 days off a year?

        • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:38
          +13

          is it actually long hours compared to many private sector office jobs

          Well my wife is a teacher. She leaves before me, gets home after me and gets paid less than half as much as me, so yes the hours are worse.
          Not only are the hours worse, but unlike say an office gig where you (profanity) around for half the day going out for coffee and sitting through shit meetings while secretly commenting on website forums 😁, the whole day is full-on vigilance working with children so the fatigue rate is much higher.
          So sure there a lots of worse jobs out there that pay less, but do you want the people who are teaching your children to be stressed and burnt-out?

          Anyone who thinks teaching is easy should maybe go give it a go. Most schools will happily take parent helpers as volunteers in class so you can get a taste of it. Again, I'm not saying it's working in a coal mine, but nor should it be. If you want well educated kids you need quality teachers who enjoy their job. And currently it's very difficult to be that.

          • yoquierotaco on 03/10/2023 - 11:07

            @1st-Amendment: can confirm this as well. partner is a teacher so we also know a lot of teachers. Not all teacher's experiences are the same. It really depends on the principle and how the school operates.

            • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 11:15

              @yoquierotaco:

              It really depends on the principle

              100%
              At our school we used to have a great principal and things were run really well and no-one ever left because the school was a great place to work. Happy kids, happy parents, happy teachers. Then she retired and this new guy came in who was a complete douche, now almost half the original staff have left and the school and Dept quite often gets letters from parents complaining about the incompetence of the principal, but the dept does nothing about it.

              This would never happen in private sector. Poor performance usually (not always) leads to dismissal. In public sector it is rewarded

              • tunzafun001 on 03/10/2023 - 12:30

                @1st-Amendment: Wouldnt be poor performance though. Douche bags are nornally Department inserted. The old Principal would have been considered to be performing poorly. Been through it twice. Literally zero respect and support from the staff or students. But awarded by the Department (as they managed to hit some higher execs goal of spending 10% less in 6 months..and wasted it on useless T&D…even though the money was there to be spent on staffing).I still think staffing should be decided by lower staff. Like how we vote. Current system is like Albo inserting a State Minister he see's "fits best" to his own parties agenda. Each school community is unique. A person sitting in head office cannot possibly understand this. Next minute you have a douche bag in charge. Ironically flogged their only friend at the school to death (literally). Was working at the school Christmas night, died overnight. Was surgery complications from movement…shouldnt have been there. Department eventually moved them on. The other, she was Escorted out by Police in a massive rage (basically went insane trying to keep staff and the Department happy).

          • Bdawg on 03/10/2023 - 13:48

            @1st-Amendment: Oh my, you just described my office job.

        • Paccers on 03/10/2023 - 11:39

          @CheapBrah

          Possibly one of the worst takes I've ever seen on this site

          • CheapBrah on 03/10/2023 - 12:27
            +1

            @Paccers: it was a question, not a take

            • LinkMonkey on 03/10/2023 - 14:31
              +12

              @CheapBrah: here's another example for you, as you seem genuinely interested :)

              My wife is also a teacher. Standard days for her consists of:

              • 6am wake up, juggling our own kids off to schools around 7am, arriving at work and starting pre-class preparations around 8am.

              • Regular "paid" work from 9am to 3pm, where 4 out of 5 days include a grading/prep-work/or extra assistance for a student during her half hour lunch break, and the other 1 out of 5 days is keeping an eye on kids in the play ground while eating lunch standing.

              • 3pm "finish" really only means "sometimes leaving before 4pm" as there's tidying the class for tomorrow, lesson plans, admin, etc, to do before going home.

              • After dinner and kids, sometime around 7pm every night she starts on the "online" work. This is things like updating posts on the various platforms, sending emails, filling in reports, all the things the school uses so the parents know what is coming up next week and how their child is progressing during the term. This almost always goes until midnight.

              • Sundays, after lunch are "unpaid" work, where she will literally go into my office (I work from home), lock the door, and just work through lesson plans, departmental guidance/expectations/emails/KPI's/etc for the week coming up. Usually finishing up between 6 and 8pm, then she finally feels like she can relax before Monday. We have a whine/wine and go to bed ;)

              • Then there's school holidays… The first 5 of these, every term, are just standard, unpaid, work days but without the school kids around. She will plan for the upcoming term and finish off all the outstanding work from the last term. Then, around the second week we actually start the "holidays" which consist mostly of me taking the kids out, and her mostly reading and sleeping because she's exhausted.

              I only know half a dozen other teachers, but this seems to be a pretty average work/life story for them.

              And as @1st-Amendment pointed out, the "work" teachers do is not the same as the "work" we do.
              Honestly, about half my day is spent sitting through meetings where I am day dreaming, or hanging around getting coffee and chatting about current events. I could skip about 3 days of meetings before anybody would even bat an eyelid. While teachers have to be 100% switched-on, 100% of the time while on site, otherwise, literally, a child could die.

              • CheapBrah on 03/10/2023 - 21:12
                +2

                @LinkMonkey: Thanks. Not sure why I've been negged so much, it was a genuine question and most professionals I know dismiss the long hours teachers do because they assume its less than the long hours they do (sounds pretty similar in reality). But the kind of people who become teachers are probably not the type of people who want to work long hours and climb a career ladder (especially given there isn't much of one in teaching). In most professions the long hours lead to a large pay day once you are senior enough, which doesn't really happen with teachers. At the end of the day, given there is a shortage it's a clear signal that something needs to improve, whether it's pay or better conditions (I suspect reducing work hours would be the most effective).

              • Bargain Slut on 03/10/2023 - 22:32
                +2

                @LinkMonkey: This is the bit people forget. I can switch off at my job and by most people's standards my job is reasonably senior/high stress. Teaching would be way worse - imagine trying to manage 30 fkn 12 year olds where there decisions are somehow entirely your fault, combined with the fact that parents now increasingly both work and have no time to effectively parent themselves and seem to have pushed this responsibility onto teachers as well. I always find it odd that government employees get time in lieu and wfh privileges but nurses and teaches etc just get shafted with an increased workload whilst copping with their ever reducing budgets and ever increasing administrative requirements.

    • chocolatelover on 03/10/2023 - 09:28

      Like every other "free" idea has been!!!!

  • Headless on 03/10/2023 - 07:40
    -1

    Ive had to teach grads how to do basic IT things post bachelors and masters degrees in IT, we are now getting them to teach younger generations what exactly? they have no real life experience in their field, is this blind leading the blind?

    • jjcf on 03/10/2023 - 08:17
      +7

      School of Hard Knocks
      University of Life

    • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 09:56

      we are now getting them to teach younger generations what exactly?

      Not IT for a start. IT nerds are usually terrible at people skills, as shown by your post, whereas teachers are usually good at people skills and terrible at technical things. I know which I prefer to teach my kids

      • OzBarAnon on 03/10/2023 - 10:21

        "People skills" does not equal competence in whatever field they're supposed to be teaching

        • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:46
          +1

          "People skills" does not equal competence in whatever field they're supposed to be teaching

          We're talking about kids in a school right?

          Teaching does not require expert level skill in the subject matters, in fact quite the opposite, often the best teachers are the ones who know only a little since they relate to the learner a lot better. The key skill is actually enthusiasm, behaviour management and patience.

  • RobBoss on 03/10/2023 - 07:47
    +28

    I'm a teacher and this does not solve the root of the issue: long unpaid hours, students being more and more challenging (borderline traumatising), out-of-pocket costs for resources and much more. The thing is, I don't even know where to start to fix these issues. Many teachers have already "quiet quit" and it's just a minimal effort. It's just a matter of time before they quit (including myself). If you are considering getting into teaching, consider again.

    • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 07:52
      +5

      But you get so many leaves end of every term.

      • tessel on 03/10/2023 - 07:53
        +14

        Oh, you aren't triggering me before 8am… ;)

      • RobBoss on 03/10/2023 - 07:56
        +2

        Haha, good one as I type this reply whilst getting paid for being on my second week of holidays. But nah I rather work a regular job as I have in the past. I just have no better options at the moment.

      • Awesomandy on 03/10/2023 - 08:14
        +7

        You need most of that time to do unit/lesson planning and professional development (however useful or not these are). You really need to think of it as a proper full time job - 9-5 Mon-Fri with a 4 week break for Xmas/new year, or you won’t be able to get through everything.

      • geekcohen on 03/10/2023 - 08:34
        +7

        uuummm……. yeah, nah. Teachers still work over their holidays. They have to do planning, preparation for terms ahead, making resources, sourcing items and then there are the odd days of going to school for a few days with preparation alongside other team members. Oh yeah, what about reports? Working nights, weekends and holidays starting to right reports which sometimes can be the biggest waste of time because some parents don't even read them or care.

        People have no idea unless they know a teacher.

        My wife has highly considered getting out of the profession because of the crap and additional work that goes with it.

        • Raj09 on 03/10/2023 - 08:56
          +4

          My wife as well. She was at school yesterday only for training. Some old tart was blabbering for hours on new teaching methodology. There were no students.

        • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 10:04
          +1

          Well.. arent we the ones who have built this broken society?

      • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 09:56
        +2

        But you get so many leaves end of every term.

        And yet there is an increasing rate of teachers leaving the profession. Why do you think that is?

        • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 10:02
          -1

          Greed?

          • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:07
            +1

            @U30004:

            Greed?

            Well the root of all human motivation is self-interest so this answer while technically correct doesn't reveal the actual issue.
            Every teacher I know (I know heaps) got into it for the love of the job, the joy of teaching. But education has turned into an administrative nightmare so even with 10 weeks of leave each year, it's still not worth it to them. Early resignation rates are close to 50% which should tell you there is a bigger problem here.

            • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 10:21

              @1st-Amendment: Grass is always greener on the opposite side.

              • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:27
                +2

                @U30004:

                Grass is always greener on the opposite side.

                If that were the case then you would see a reasonable number of qualified and experienced teachers coming back into the profession after having left. But that is not happening, so again this is not a good explanation of the issue.

                • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 10:48
                  -1

                  @1st-Amendment: Hmmm

                  • wombat81 on 03/10/2023 - 14:11
                    +2

                    @U30004: If it's such a great job, why does no one want to do it and why do existing teachers want to leave?

                    • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 14:12

                      @wombat81: Caz they are comparing it to other professions. Teaching is about building a better future not an easy cash grab.

                      • wombat81 on 03/10/2023 - 14:18

                        @U30004: So how do you propose we fix the teacher shortage since no one in their right mind wants to become a teacher to "build a better future"?

                        Plus, no one is talking about increasing pay, although that may be a way to make the profession more attractive. Teachers just need to be able to get their work done during their paid hours and still be able to do a decent job of teaching their students. Both things are impossible at the moment.

                        • U30004 on 03/10/2023 - 14:23

                          @wombat81: Instill a bit of patriotism. We seem to want all the windfall due to the influx of immigrants but none of the responsibilities

                          • wombat81 on 03/10/2023 - 15:10

                            @U30004: Patriotism and immigration. Two things that have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. Good plan.

                          • larndis on 04/10/2023 - 09:48

                            @U30004: @U30004 Are you a teacher?

                          • iridiumstem on 06/10/2023 - 09:54

                            @U30004: Since when did patriotism mean people endure something that's not sustainable without thinking about more long term solutions? That mentality I feel like is what's caused the need for a royal commision to defence and veterans suicide.

    • tessel on 03/10/2023 - 07:53
      +8

      Bro, I feel you. I got out of the profession and not even a free degree would make me want to teach again.

      • Carmen Sandiego on 03/10/2023 - 09:12
        +2

        Ditto.

        All I have left to complete my teaching degree is the very last placement, and short of the $60+M Powerball jackpot, I couldn't think of a worse way to use my braincells and time.

    • iridiumstem on 03/10/2023 - 08:05
      +7

      You know what they say, it takes a village to raise a child. When you don't have a village and when parents aren't well equipped to raise their kids, you end up with challenging kids who someone somewhere has to support.

      I feel for the teachers tbh, working with kids probably isn't something that I would enjoy even within my profession.

      • chocolatelover on 03/10/2023 - 09:29
        +2

        Perhaps if schools could go back to "teaching" rather than this woke crap continually there may be less issues!!!!

        • Misha Bakunin on 03/10/2023 - 12:32
          +2

          As far as I am told by teachers, the woke stuff takes up a lot of time and effort, and seems to often be enforced by the system.

        • iridiumstem on 03/10/2023 - 15:53
          +3

          I feel like that is irrelevant to how we end up with kids with "problematic behaviours" at school. I guess if teachers had more resources and time, that might change things a bit, but ultimately, I don't think parenting should be something teachers should be expected to do.

          I do hear a lot about how counselling sessions with kids basically becomes counselling sessions with the parents in many cases because the problem is with the parents' side (regardless of whether it is something that the parents can control or outside of their control) and the kids are basically trying their best to manage. I would hate to be the third wheel in that turmoil, especially if I am a third party who's not even being paid to be a counsellor.

          What should or shouldn't be taught in schools isn't something that I have a strong opinion on, at least not to the point where I will kick the hornet's nest for or had invested enough time to really have an opinion on them.

        • miicah on 03/10/2023 - 17:18
          +4

          What "woke crap" are you referring to?

          Perhaps you can point me to which parts of the curriculum are "woke"?

    • freefall101 on 03/10/2023 - 08:43
      +5

      Most of my uni friends went into teaching, I've had a chat a few times on how to move out of that and into the corporate world. The only thing keeping them teaching is momentum. They're not sure how to change, they don't fit the skills charts of companies and it's hard to want to learn new skills when you're already teaching others.

      Some smarter than me cookie will start a HR company and snap up all these teachers, they're basically have far more HR skills but are just paid half as much.

      • frugalftw on 03/10/2023 - 08:53

        HR is an interesting idea. I sense an innate conflict because I’d like to believe teachers to have integrity, whereas HRs work for the employers, not the employees. Lots of grey areas.

        • OzBarAnon on 03/10/2023 - 10:23

          "I’d like to believe teachers to have integrity"
          Good joke, very funny

    • Noobist45 on 03/10/2023 - 14:52
      +4

      It's hard to listen to the "holidays, 8-3 work day, babysitter" comments when none of that matters at all. Everything you wrote is my experience 100%. The majority of teachers have checked out already, including myself. Waiting for confirmation on a new job right now. Teachers don't give a shit about holidays and money. Of course more money is better but that's the same for every job on planet Earth. Money won't even come close to fixing the issues with teaching.

      There is no fix in sight at all. Teachers lists the issues (long, long list) and that translates to 'pay rise' with the teachers union. So nothing changes. I am deeply afraid of the future, I'm gonna be living in a world where we have a complete disproportionate number of kids who have an enormous list of issues, looking at a generation of useless human beings in our society. Parents are to blame, only have to be a teacher for 1 month to know this. Only question remains is "why" ? What happened ?

  • ruthlesskid on 03/10/2023 - 08:00
    +16

    Given the drastic burnout rates of early career teachers, this is a band-aid to the teacher shortage, not a solution.
    The following are just the tip of the iceberg from what I have heard first hand.
    - The average teacher is has often to fill in the role of a councillor/event organiser/parent/writing programs/wellbeing.
    - Reduce admin/paperwork for teachers, it is nothing but busywork taking effective hours from lesson prep. e.g. it takes more time generating a detention letter in the correct format than to give out a detention.
    - Bring pay rise equity to other public professions, not from threats of industrial actions to get a measly 2.5%.
    + many more, why would a young graduate want to spend their best years of 20-30's on teaching in this state?

    • frugalftw on 03/10/2023 - 08:57
      +2

      This is happening even on a homeschooling level. I know someone who organises events for her homeschooling kids, most parents are hopelessly disorganised and it becomes a full time job just to answer queries. In a pottery class, a parent showed up instead of their child 🙈 It’s on the parents, not so much on the govt.

      • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 09:58
        +1

        It’s on the parents, not so much on the govt.

        And this is one of the side effects of the welfare state, it breeds generations of dependency which simply creates more need for welfare. It's a doom loop.

        • frugalftw on 03/10/2023 - 10:39

          Right, I see. It comes back to educate the people how to be responsible parents, which cannot be done because the education system is inadequate because there aren’t many teachers who can/will do the job right.

          • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:48

            @frugalftw:

            It comes back to educate the people how to be responsible parents, which cannot be done because the education system…

            It is not the state's job to teach you how to raise your child. But the fact you think this tells us a lot about the welfare mentality…

            • try2bhelpful on 03/10/2023 - 10:51
              +3

              @1st-Amendment: Frankly a number of parents don’t have a clue how to raise children properly. It is important children are exposed to the tools to allow them to make critical assessments on the information they are receiving. However, I can see why some people might feel threatened by that.

              • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:58
                +1

                @try2bhelpful:

                Frankly a number of parents don’t have a clue how to raise children properly.

                And how do you think that happens? The welfare state created a generation of dependents who now lack basic skills that almost everyone had up until a few decades ago. Do you see the pattern there?

                It is important children are exposed to the tools to allow them to make critical assessments on the information they are receiving. However, I can see why some people might feel threatened by that.

                I'm sure you were trying to be clever here, but this doesn't actually make any sense. Children need access to tools, but some people feel threatened by this?
                Whatever school you went to, I'd be asking for my money back 🤣

                • try2bhelpful on 03/10/2023 - 11:04
                  +4

                  @1st-Amendment: This has nothing to do with the welfare state, there are plenty of parents who aren’t on welfare who are clueless. There are also people who are on welfare who make great parents. This is the rightwing trope though. The “us and them” attempt at shaming.

                  Nah mate. I’m not the one who needs to demand my school give my money back. What I’m saying makes perfect sense to anyone who is logical. People who aren’t using logic will feel attacked if they think children are being taught to see through their arguments.

                  • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 11:10
                    -1

                    @try2bhelpful:

                    This has nothing to do with the welfare state

                    The education system is provided for by the state. How do you think it is funded?

                    there are plenty of parents who aren’t on welfare who are clueless. There are also people who are on welfare who make great parents.

                    Cool. Relevance?

                    This is the rightwing trope though. The “us and them” attempt at shaming.

                    What is? It looks like you've invented something to be angry about while not addressing anything I said.

                    People who aren’t using logic will feel attacked if they think children are being taught to see through their arguments.

                    Interesting. What are you talking about? It seem like you've gone rage posting without actually reading what you replied to.

                    • try2bhelpful on 03/10/2023 - 11:16
                      +2

                      @1st-Amendment: I’ve made my point and I will let others judge. Given how you get downvoted on these sites I don’t think you are convincing too many people.

                      • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 11:33

                        @try2bhelpful:

                        Given how you get downvoted on these sites I don’t think you are convincing too many people.

                        Another logic error.

                        A percentage of people are emotionally fragile and will downvote anything that makes them feel uncomfortable, regardless of how true it is because they see things they don't like and can't figure out a way that it is incorrect so simply react with something negative. It's called cognitive dissonance and is entirely expected. It comes with the territory.

                        Also, if reading anonymous negs is a benchmark of truth, based on this, can I take it from the fact that at the time of posting this I have more positive votes than negative so I'm automatically right? That is just an absurd proposition isn't it?

                        TL;DR Facts don't care about feelings, and votes are just feelings. The plural of feelings is not facts.

                        • SpainKing on 03/10/2023 - 13:10

                          @1st-Amendment:

                          A percentage of people are emotionally fragile and will downvote anything that makes them feel uncomfortable, regardless of how true it is…

                          A similar number of people would down vote it because it's wrong/incoherent/pretends it's addressing the point but doesn't.

                          Using a neg is a nice anonymous way of expressing disagreement (similar to how using a + expresses agreement or a positive emotion). This is good because most people don't want to interact with the people espousing conspiracies, who may have too much time on their hands (like myself)

                          As negs are limited to 5 per day it's actually semi-valuable to "a percentage" of the people giving them out, so gathering more negs than +'s is unlikely for any random given comment. Getting many implies something seriously wrong with the comment (or that a statement is controversial, in which case it will generally have a positive score balanced out by those who agree).

                          It feels like you aren't engaging with any of try2bhelpful's points, instead disregarding them with snarky remarks like "Cool. Relevance?" "I'd want a refund if I went to your school 🤣."

                          Whether you were being wilfully ignorant as to the point with "It is important children are exposed to the tools to allow them to make critical assessments on the information they are receiving. However, I can see why some people might feel threatened by that." is unclear but it seems pretty obvious what they were saying. Just because they used the word "tools" which is synonymous with things like hammers doesn't make it a hard point to understand

                          • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 13:38

                            @SpainKing:

                            This is good because most people don't want to interact with the people espousing conspiracies

                            Lol… anything I disagree with is a conspiracy!
                            And according to this logic, merely voting it down makes it more likely to be incorrect? this is the idea you are defending?

                            As negs are limited to 5 per day it's actually semi-valuable to "a percentage" of the people giving them out,

                            That is absolutely right. But being valuable to someone who is emotionally fragile has no relation to whether something is true or not.

                            Getting many implies something seriously wrong with the comment

                            Logic error. The plural of feelings is not fact…

                            it seems pretty obvious what they were saying

                            If it's obvious maybe you could spell it out then in the context of this thread since it really makes no sense.

                            • SpainKing on 03/10/2023 - 14:00

                              @1st-Amendment:

                              Lol… anything I disagree with is a conspiracy!
                              And according to this logic, merely voting it down makes it more likely to be incorrect? this is the idea you are defending?

                              No, ideas that are incorrect are more likely to get downvoted is what I'm defending. There are many conspiracy theories around today (just like in the past). They can't all be correct (in fact, many aren't) and hence get downvoted. No need to put words in my mouth

                              That is absolutely right. But being valuable to someone who is emotionally fragile has no relation to whether something is true or not.

                              Just because someone has expressed they disagree with you doesn't make them emotionally fragile, neither does not wanting to engage with you.

                              Getting many implies something seriously wrong with the comment

                              Logic error. The plural of feelings is not fact…

                              Congratulations on using your catchy phrase again. I still prefer to think that the combined minds of the population can offer insight in to the wisest decisions

                              If it's obvious maybe you could spell it out then in the context of this thread since it really makes no sense.

                              Okay. Here's what they said:

                              It is important children are exposed to the tools to allow them to make critical assessments on the information they are receiving

                              Here's what it means:

                              It is important children are given the tools (critical thinking skills, positive morals/values, a good education) that allow them to make critical assessments on the information they are receiving

                              Italics are my changes to make it clearer. To contextualise this you two were talking about parenting. Doing this would allow children to make better decisions as to how to parent their children once they become parents. It is not "the state teaching you how to parent", it is providing education to people that allows them to be better parents (because education is a good thing when it comes to minimising family violence/abuse alongside other negative outcomes)

                              • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 15:43

                                @SpainKing:

                                No, ideas that are incorrect are more likely to get downvoted is what I'm defending

                                That's exactly what I said. And it shows a complete disregard for the most basic high school level statistics.

                                you doesn't make them emotionally fragile, neither does not wanting to engage with you.

                                It's precisely what it means. You disagree with an idea but lack the courage to discuss it further. \
                                Either you don't care in which case you wouldn't bother voting, or you got triggered, needed to show some sort of protest but lacked the intellect and/or courage to defend your own position.

                                Congratulations on using your catchy phrase again

                                Thanks. Congratulations on making the same logic fallacy again so that I get to keep using it.

                                Doing this

                                Doing what specifically?

                                it is providing education to people that allows them to be better parents

                                I got that part. The disconnect is why OP thinks that anyone is afraid/threatened by this and how this is related to anything I said?
                                At point did I ever say children shouldn't be educated? I just questioned that if the current system is failing then why keep doing more of the same thing? Since the original claim was that parents are getting worse at parenting, how can a good solution be to do more of the same thing? He thinks I'm threatened by a lousy public education system turning out rubbish parents?

                                • SpainKing on 03/10/2023 - 21:07

                                  @1st-Amendment:

                                  That's exactly what I said. And it shows a complete disregard for the most basic high school level statistics

                                  Not exactly but the sentiment is the same so I apologise for misrepresenting the argument. Why do you think incorrect ideas are less likely/equally likely to receive negative votes than ideas that are correct

                                  Just because someone has expressed they disagree with you doesn't make them emotionally fragile, neither does not wanting to engage with you.

                                  It's precisely what it means. You disagree with an idea but lack the courage to discuss it further. \
                                  Either you don't care in which case you wouldn't bother voting, or you got triggered, needed to show some sort of protest but lacked the intellect and/or courage to defend your own position.

                                  I still don't think the mere act of someone disagreeing with you makes them emotionally fragile, nor does not wanting to engage with you. Some people have things to do and don't have the time to debate every random point on OzBargain they disagree with. Negs provide a sense of catharsis for those people so they leave them

                                  Thanks. Congratulations on making the same logic fallacy again so that I get to keep using it.

                                  You're welcome. Which one did I use again?

                                  Doing what specifically?

                                  Doing the thing I put in terms less confusing for you from try2bhelpful.

                                  I got that part. The disconnect is why OP thinks that anyone is afraid/threatened by this and how this is related to anything I said?

                                  I will not continue to translate between you two after this. I believe when they said "However, I can see why some people might feel threatened by that." they were doing an underhanded dig implying that you felt threatened by the notion of educating children how to be better parents. This is likely because of your statement "It is not the state's job to teach you how to raise your child. But the fact you think this tells us a lot about the welfare mentality…" you made directly before it (which itself comes across as an underhanded dig at OP).

                                  At point did I ever say children shouldn't be educated?

                                  I didn't say you did. Based off your previous statement it seems like you're against the state (and this public schooling system) educating children about how to be good parents.

                                  I just questioned that if the current system is failing then why keep doing more of the same thing?

                                  Which thing? Please tell me, then walk me through your proposed way to fix it

                                  Since the original claim was that parents are getting worse at parenting, how can a good solution be to do more of the same thing?

                                  Maybe there's extraneous factors outside of education to blame. Perhaps they're worse parents because they can't stay home with their children because they both have to work. The reasons for this would be numerous and not exclusive to the state education system

                                  He thinks I'm threatened by a lousy public education system turning out rubbish parents?

                                  I think he was throwing his ad hominem attack at your ad hominem attack

                                  • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 22:16

                                    @SpainKing:

                                    Based off your previous statement it seems like you're against the state (and this public schooling system) educating children about how to be good parents.

                                    Well they don't do this, it's not part of any curriculum I'm aware of. The inference was made that schooling makes better parents when this is clearly not the case, since we have lots of schooling yet agree that parenting is getting worse. This was the bit that OP said that made no sense.

                                    Good parenting generally comes from good parents, and good parents are less likely in an environment that rewards failed marriages. There's a lot of evidence for the idea that single parent families, which increased massively when welfare schemes were introduced are a major contributor to this.

                                    Which thing?

                                    Throwing tonnes of taxpayer money at public schooling that is getting worse despite record funding levels.

                                    then walk me through your proposed way to fix it

                                    How much time do you have? Less dependency on government is the short answer. Rewarding failure only leads to more expensive failure. We are seeing that all over the world now. Smarter people than me have proposed alternative solutions, school vouchers in one option I'd like to see tried.

                                    The reasons for this would be numerous and not exclusive to the state education system

                                    Agree. It was OP that made this connection not me. But the point here is that dependency breeds dependency.

                                    I think he was throwing his ad hominem attack at your ad hominem attack

                                    Well mine was directly related to the dumb things he said so earned it. His was just gobble-de-gook that made no sense, which actually reinforces my original point.

            • frugalftw on 03/10/2023 - 10:56

              @1st-Amendment: No, it’s not, but how do you level up a population that seems to be rather… lost? Social issue is the job of the state, is it not? Are people just supposed to teach themselves how to parent? Look where we are. I don’t think it helps anyone to dis a first grader for not being able to do calculus.

        • Ademos on 03/10/2023 - 11:33
          +1

          The vast majority of welfare in Australia goes to disability and elderly. Not "dole bludgers". It's like what, 5%?

          • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 11:44
            +1

            @Ademos:

            Not "dole bludgers". It's like what, 5%?

            You seem to have quoted me there but I never mentioned anything of the sort.
            Let me be clear, the 'welfare state' is the idea that the government is best placed to solve all of your problems. When you grow up in this environment regardless or your wealth or employment status you tend to have a default position that 'x is problem, the government needs to fix it'.

            The problem with this mindset is that it requires an ever increasing government, with ever increasing taxes, creating ever increasing government departments that all depend on an smaller and smaller private sector to pay for it all. Financially the only long-term outcome if you continue down this path is bankruptcy

            In this case, education is a form of welfare, and despite it getting worse, the default opinion still seems to be to get the government to fix it. If they wrecked it, why would they be best placed to fix it? Why not try something else?

            • Ademos on 03/10/2023 - 11:56
              +2

              @1st-Amendment: I see. Well that all sounds very smart. So whens the last time this system collapsed?

              Not when boomers had free degrees.

              Not when public service pensions were better.

              Back when corporate tax rates were higher you say.

              Back when monopolies and global tax shuffling wasnt allowed, you day.

              Back when we didnt tax lng at 1/20th tge rate if qatar you say.

              Back before we allowed negative gearing by an ageing boomer bubble thats about to die off and release supply and the medicare burden, albeit in another 20 years, you say.

              Back before the libs were handing out 400 million contracts for environmentall consultation to boards stacked with ex oil execs. Without tender. You say.

              Yes yes. Clearly welfare bludgers are the problem. Incredible brain on you there, sport.

              Leeeet me guess. Privatise all the things? That works, does it? How ARE your gas prices going champ? Thise companies light and fluffly reserving a percentage for domestic sale to our own people are they?

              • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 12:04

                @Ademos:

                So whens the last time this system collapsed?

                For Australia? The last time we were on the path to bankruptcy was when previous governments had promised so much in superannuation welfare that the Peter Costello had to step in and create the Future Fund to ensure we didn't go bankrupt.

                Yes yes. Clearly welfare bludgers are the problem. Incredible brain on you there, sport.

                Well that's not what I said, but sure go on…

                Leeeet me guess. Privatise all the things?

                Nor that…

                What an interesting although irrational rant. Sound like you been swallowing too much media hype. That stuff is designed to get you upset and keep you hooked. Looks like it's working a treat…

  • qvinto on 03/10/2023 - 08:03
    +4

    Stop tax payer funding of elite private schools and use the money to boost public school teacher resources and salaries. That will improve things and make Australian less of a class based society when it comes to schooling.

    • AngryAlfred on 03/10/2023 - 08:32
      +5

      But then how are we going to fill our football teams? You're not thinking about the donors kids

    • AustriaBargain on 03/10/2023 - 08:54
      +13

      Will never happen in our lifetime. Australia is rotten to the core when it comes to housing, casual corruption, and private schools.

    • Raj09 on 03/10/2023 - 08:58
      +2

      Why on earth do private schools carry more weight than public?in other countries private school are special schools for students in need. And for heavens sake, there is no eton here

      • Carmen Sandiego on 03/10/2023 - 09:14
        +4

        Because it's the last bastion of the actual British class system.

        Half of my HS year was in public, and then, I went to private school until I graduated - you rub shoulders with the rich and "elites"

        • Raj09 on 03/10/2023 - 09:39

          Good to know man

      • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:01
        +1

        Why on earth do private schools carry more weight than public?

        What do you mean by 'weight'?
        Why do people want to send their kids to schools with better facilities and better opportunities and less problems? I would think the answer is quite obvious.

        • Raj09 on 03/10/2023 - 10:06

          I think the answer is make better use of funds in public and lift the standards. Same as in Finland or the Nordic countries.

          • 1st-Amendment on 03/10/2023 - 10:10
            +1

            @Raj09:

            I think the answer is make better use of funds in public and lift the standards

            That didn't answer my question

  • Could Be Better on 03/10/2023 - 08:07
    +11

    I know that there is a shortage of teachers, but I believe that going into a teaching degree straight after high school (at least for VCE teachers) doesn't help future teachers and students - my best teachers in high school were those with industry experience who could not only teach their subjects well but also go beyond the curriculum with their career perspectives; and how the things we learn in VCE can translate into the real world. Getting students to be teachers right after graduating limits their personal growth as well, in my opinion. (This is coming from a final-year uni student with many friends in education)

    • frugalftw on 03/10/2023 - 09:04

      Why would it limit their personal growth?

      • ruthlesskid on 03/10/2023 - 09:20
        +1

        When you are working with children in an institution aimed to output social reproduction, you are expected to stick to routines and norms.
        For most teachers, exposure to networking is minimal, even for middle management(head teachers, coordinators).
        Funnily enough, The opportunity for personal growth is to climb the school hierarchy and become middle management of other teachers, away from teaching!

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