Driving Infringement Dispute - Stopped Double Parked

pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 12:29
Last edited 04/08/2025 - 18:12 by 1 other user

Hello OzBs, I am here for your collective wisdom to understand my chances of contesting the infringement issued to me.
First, here is the MS paint diagram:

It is two-lane street, I am the red car with left indicators on to indicate that I am intending to park where the yellow car is. I saw the driver getting in the yellow car just ahead of me. I am standing here for less than 10 seconds, when I realize, the yellow car is going to take longer and I drive off ahead, and I turn right to another street further up ahead. I am 100% positive that this is the only time and place I stopped on the street mentioned in the infringement.

Now, I was puzzled when I received the infringement as I have been doing such type of manoeuvre for years and I have seen countless other drivers doing this all the time and I did not realize that this an offence, let alone infringement worthy. I am also 100% sure that I did not stop there for more than 10 seconds, as I could see the traffic ahead of me moving further, and the driver in the yellow car signing to me that he is not moving. Note that, at no time my car was "parked" there, and the ignition was ON all the time. Unfortunately, the parking officers may be in full swing there at that time, which I did not realize at that moment.

Infringement type exact words: "Stopped double parked"

So I have 2 questions:

  1. Is this really an offence, the manoeuvre I along with almost everyone else does?
  2. What are my chances of contesting this with the council and if unsuccessful, with the court afterwards?

When I received the infringement, I was absolutely confused, until I saw the street name and time, to realize the above had occurred.

Your inputs are much appreciated.

Edit: it is a busy street. There were cars in front of me and behind me. When I stopped, the car in front of me, moved may be worth 2 car spaces before I abandoned my plan to park and joined behind it. So the traffic behind me was "held up" for the length of 2 car spaces for 10 seconds. I got the photos from council that shows cars behind me, and the space in front me until the next car is visible in front. The photos are when my right indicator is on, so when I already decided to abandon my plan to park and started to drive off to join the car in front. So I "held up" the traffic for 10 seconds and then we all joined in to the front of my car to just wait, as crs had stopped there again for pedestrians, and for people parking their cars. Basically the net effect was that cars behind me had to stop 15-20 meters earlier than they would have stopped anyway.

Automotive

Comments

  • Davo1111 on 04/08/2025 - 12:36
    +9

    Did anyone get in or out of your car for those 10 seconds?

    • Bargainitis on 04/08/2025 - 14:04
      +3

      OP, how about you answer this question honestly.

      • Davo1111 on 04/08/2025 - 14:08
        +3

        He's responded to 3 other questions, ignoring mine. I think we have our answer.

    • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 14:12
      -2

      For this specific instance, no, there were no doors opened. I indicated left, waited for under 10 seconds, indicated right, drove off. But I have seen people do that too, to stop and let someone out/in. Curious, if that has implications if the doors opened while the car was standing, for the same duration?

      • Davo1111 on 04/08/2025 - 14:21
        +8

        it was probably what they were clamping down on. Looking at the act, it appears to not matter, as [according to this] you're guilty anyway.

        https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2…

        • ribze1 on 04/08/2025 - 21:35
          +13

          So basically you can't wait for a spot to free up, it must be free already.

          • quick-dry on 04/08/2025 - 22:09
            -1

            @ribze1: it says you can't "stop" or "park" - and "stop" is the dictionary meaning - so if you were rolling forward at any speed above zero, you would not be stopped, you might be rolling obnoxiously slowly, but would be neither stopped nor parked.

            Is a parking officer able to tell an incredibly slow roll? I don't know, and I dont know if the legislation requires them to present more evidence of the crime than just the ticket saying they did it.

          • Lurk Hartog on 05/08/2025 - 07:39
            +5

            @ribze1: Traffic, particularly in car parks would flow so much better if everyone understood this. 90% of car park traffic jams are people waiting for car spots to become free.

          • smartazz104 on 05/08/2025 - 08:04

            @ribze1: So some unlucky people might never find a parking spot.

      • jv on 04/08/2025 - 16:15
        -4

        Curious, if that has implications if the doors opened

        Yes it does…

        • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 17:55
          +1

          it seems like, not really…

        • Davo1111 on 05/08/2025 - 08:44
          +1

          No. It doesn't.

          • kiitos on 06/08/2025 - 11:52

            @Davo1111: I think it would, if there was a space available for parking. If the car indicated left, pulled over in front of the space, and let someone get out, they would still be pinged for double parking, whereas if they indicated, pulled over, then decided they couldn't fit in the space and drove on, they wouldn't.

      • Dr Phil on 05/08/2025 - 17:18
        +2

        I side with OP.
        OP did not leave the car.
        OP was simply waiting for the traffic to move…right OP?
        Just because the cars ahead move up 2 or 3 spaces doesnt not mean you must do the same.

        CHALLENGE THE FINE!

        You can always say you were being courteous and allowing the parked car to pull out safely given the traffic wasnt going anywhere..
        There is nothing illegal about being courteous

        • Antikythera on 05/08/2025 - 19:23

          Just because the cars ahead move up 2 or 3 spaces doesnt not mean you must do the same.

          indicator might blow that one out of the water.

          worth a try. especially if there was an intersection not too far ahead.

  • JimmyF on 04/08/2025 - 12:41
    +5

    Infringement type exact words: "Stopped double parked"

    What you described is the classic stopped double parked fine. You stopped and didn't park! 10 seconds or not. Yeah I agree it is rough.

    Request a photo of the issue and you might understand a bit more of what happened and where it was.

    From the person who fined you, it could look like you double parked to let someone in or out and kept going. Did this happen?

  • 87percent on 04/08/2025 - 12:55
    +1

    Wasn’t there a recent news article about this scenario??

    • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 14:13
      -1

      sauce?

      • joka on 04/08/2025 - 20:09
        +2

        Yes please

      • Nugs on 05/08/2025 - 09:58

        "Breaking this road rule will land you a $320 fine in NSW, $118 in Victoria, $319 in South Australia and $120 in Queensland."
        @jv
        Victoria might get out of debt quicker if they raise their fines
        .

        • jv on 05/08/2025 - 10:32
          +2

          Breaking this road rule will land you a $320 fine in NSW,

          If you read that story, the ticket was withdrawn.

          • Davo1111 on 06/08/2025 - 12:02
            +2

            @jv: It just means they didnt enforce it in this one case.

            People cycle to work without a helmet. If they decide to withdraw the fine, it doesnt mean it's now legal.

            • Chandler on 06/08/2025 - 12:22
              +1

              @Davo1111: Also prevents the courts from setting a precedent that could be used to argue future fines. That's likely why the council was a no-show.

              • jv on 06/08/2025 - 12:35

                @Chandler:

                could be used to argue future fines

                It would be easy to argue and get off the fine in court.

  • Ave Maria on 04/08/2025 - 13:07
    +1

    Report to "Current Affair" -:) - if you did so at a busy time and blocked traffic behind you, then it is a double parking offence even if momentary or the engine was running with you in the car. Dispute and ask for video or photo evidence. 10 seconds is a very long time and combined with bad timing will result in an infrindgement notice. You stopped because you saw someone get into a car is not the same as clearly indicating they are about to pull a car out (and they weren't). So just bad judgment on your part (and bad timing).

    • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 13:39
      +1

      But to park in the yellow car's space, I would need to stop there. Does the infringement rely on the fact that yellow car did not move out? To put in other words, if the yellow car DID actually move out and I parked there after waiting for exactly 10 seconds, is it still an infringement?

      • Davo1111 on 04/08/2025 - 14:48

        https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2…

        A driver must not stop on a road if to do so would put any part of the vehicle that the driver is driving between a vehicle that is parked on the road and the centre of the road.

        "stop"

      • freefall101 on 04/08/2025 - 15:27
        +6

        Yes, it is an infringement. You are not meant to stop on the road and wait for a car to leave, despite that everyone does it.

        Annoys the hell out of me that people block the road doing this, personally I'm glad they started issuing fines.

        • Caped Baldy on 04/08/2025 - 16:03
          +2

          I was behind someone and they literally stopped at a raised pedestrian crossing to let out their passenger and have a chat. Kicker is that there were parking spots 30m down the road.

        • kyle on 04/08/2025 - 17:54

          Those parents on Huntingtower Road, Armadale at school times.

          • 87percent on 05/08/2025 - 10:27

            @kyle: ALL parents at school times.. brains go out the window during school pick up

            we got a notice in the newsletter the other day that a parent had been parking in a surrounding houses driveway to go and pick up their kid

        • tenpercent on 05/08/2025 - 10:48
          +4

          If no one ever stops to allow a car to leave their parking spot then how will anyone ever leave their parking spot when there's a lot of traffic?

          • Antikythera on 05/08/2025 - 19:28

            @tenpercent: yellow car was not indicating the intent to leave their spot. OP would not have got the fine in the case it was.

      • Muppet Detector on 05/08/2025 - 15:48
        +1

        The road rules seem to indicate that you may only attempt to park in that spot when it is already vacant.

      • Muppet Detector on 06/08/2025 - 13:08
        -3

        Infringement relies on the fact that the yellow car was there.

        Infringement relies on the fact that there were no vacant spots available for you to move your car into as you were moving down that road.

        Infringement only relies on situation at exact time. It does not make allowances for your good manners, mind reading abilities, fortune telling, or any type of communication with yourself or others, including those which are non verbal or silent.

        This legislation appears to be extremely black and white, with no consideration for any grey areas that many have been overlooked, not anticipated or happening in present time.

        It seems that the absence of any grey areas or caveats means that this legislation has purposely refrained from being vague or open to any other interpretation, reasonable or not, than what is explicitly stated.

        It is an offence to stop in the lane in which you were travelling for the purposes of waiting for a parking space to become available.

        It is also an offence to bring your vehicle to a stop beside another vehicle already legally parked in the designated area which for you, resulted in you being double parked.

        If the spot you wish to enter is already vacant, presumably, it would then be legal for you to stop and perform the necessary manneuvers for you to legally move your car into that previously vacant spot.

        • They don't care for how long you were stopped there. - They don't care for how long it took the legally parked car to vacate the spot where their car was.
        • They don't care who indicated to do what or for how long they indicated.
        • They don't care if you thought the parked car was vacating that space, then or at any time in the future.
        • They don't care if driver of that vehicle gave you a signed note from their mother telling you that they were going to vacate that spot.
        • They don't care if you stopped for 5 seconds, ten seconds or five minutes.
        • They don't care how many other people committed the same offence, apparently without consequence.
        • They care about none of that which is why the legislation is not worded in a vague manner or in any way that the legislation may be subjective or open to any other interpretation than what they explicitly stipulated.

        However, for whatever reason, they don't want people stopping in a lane where traffic is meant to be moving.

        In all likelihood, had there have been an obstruction preventing the forward motion of your car at that time, an exception may have been made for you.

        Additionally, not only do they not want people to stop their vehicle in that lane, they also do not want you to stop alongside another car legally parked to your left.

    • Bruceflix on 04/08/2025 - 16:07
      +20

      10 seconds is a very long time

      I have tried explaining this to my GF. She does not agree

      • Munki on 04/08/2025 - 21:14
        +9

        I too tried to explain it to your GF. She's not very understanding.

      • frewer on 05/08/2025 - 07:52

        Ya keep doing that, there will be a trophy 9months later. It may not be yours though

      • cameldownunder on 05/08/2025 - 10:20

        We didn't talk, so I could not explain.

  • Protractor on 04/08/2025 - 13:24
    -8

    Your were stopped double parked (and have admitted as much) and obviously spotted live by a ranger etc, or filmed by CCTV. This is as difficult to defend as the usual rolling across a white line at stop sign and claiming 'I stopped".
    The regs and law tries hard not to create too many grey areas. This isn't a grey area infringement.

    • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 13:36

      yes I stopped, but that's the only way I could have parked if the yellow car was moving out. Do you mean to say, it is an infringement because the yellow didn't pull out, or is it because I stopped?

      • Protractor on 04/08/2025 - 13:44
        -6

        CAVEAT. You say 10 seconds. You would need to prove that.( doubtful) You may also have withheld other details.

        But, either way, whoever infringed you believes the process justified the ticket. So it's your version of 'a 10 second pause', against their version, and the power they have to present it. There may have been multiple cars behind you that gave the ranger / inspector (?) a reason to think the stopping was more than a few seconds long.
        Bad timing and bad luck isn't a defence.Let us know what the council says when you ask for the case details

        • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 14:06

          So the reason for infringement is because there were cars behind me, irrespective or whether I could have parked in yellow's slot or not? Of course, if I parallel park and there are cars behind me, they are going to be held up for few seconds, irrespective. So is there a set number of seconds I am allowed to "hold up" the cars while I park? Because, I am certain if the yellow was not even there, I would have held up the cars for almost same duration, as parallel park requires me to pull up, stop and reverse into the slot, sometimes even needing to adjust a second time so my car doesn't hang out of the lines.

          • Protractor on 04/08/2025 - 14:23
            -4

            @pjbargain15: No I'm saying the PI or camera may say a long queue 'may' prove your 10 seconds is wrong/dishonest/inaccurate. You can describe all the moves in normal parking you want. The ticket is for you parking in the street, long enough to either directly infringe (their rules/regs/laws) or spend so much time stationary in a flow of traffic to be deemed parking. A line of traffic behind you 'may' be a secondary indicator to the PI.At some point your ten second interpretation is going to let your version down.

            I am certain if the yellow was not even there, I would have held up the cars for almost same duration

            Yes but one situation (in this story) is the infringement action, the other is the act of legally parking

            • bbinc on 05/08/2025 - 09:41
              +1

              @Protractor: I’m troubled that the mere act of stopping to reverse into a vacant spot would constitute an offence under the wording of the Act?
              Stopping because there are stationary vehicles in front of you? In that case pausing to simply allow the yellow car access from its parking spot into the traffic as a courtesy (forget whether you are looking to take the spot or not).
              I’m not arguing OP was probably fairly booked, but there appears to be a degree of judgement required here, ie a grey area. I guess that’s when you go to court to argue the toss.

              • Protractor on 05/08/2025 - 09:51
                -3

                @bbinc: Every circumstance is different.
                We have one (possibly partial) version of this story.
                OP can challenge the ticket, if he can prove he didn't do what he is alleged to have done.
                I believe if the parking procedure was achieved safely without unwieldy disruptions to traffic , perhaps PI and rangers don't book ppl in 'grey' situations.
                But randomly (and emphatically) stating you had paused for less than 10 seconds, way after the incident is stretching it.
                The PI's and rangers may have had a plethora of ppl infringing in the one area where the OP got pinged, who were making a mess of traffic in that area, and impacting on businesses, and they decided to have a no holds barred blitz. The possibilities are endless.

                • tenpercent on 05/08/2025 - 09:55

                  @Protractor:

                  if he can prove he didn't do what he is alleged to have done.

                  Guilty until proven innocent? That sounds about right.

                  • Protractor on 05/08/2025 - 10:52

                    @tenpercent: LOL.
                    In a challenge, that the OP has based on the less than ten seconds of stopping time, how would you say (and more importantly do) it?
                    It's a formal challenge of a legal position, and it needs to have opposing facts introduced, to overturn the infringement.

                    • tenpercent on 05/08/2025 - 10:54

                      @Protractor: Wow. You almost make the idea of 'guilty until proven innocent' sound reasonable.
                      Do you sell ice to Eskimos?

                      • Protractor on 07/08/2025 - 10:39

                        @tenpercent: So comprehension has left your building again?
                        Your knowledge of law is only surpassed by that of your 'ownership of conspiracies', with no basis in fact.

      • EightImmortals on 04/08/2025 - 14:01
        +3

        It's because they smelled a dollar……

      • Dan_ on 05/08/2025 - 20:29

        that's the only way I could have parked if the yellow car was moving out.

        Sorry, but I feel that's a bit of a Me Me Me attitude.

        If there's someone behind me, I'll move along unless the vacating car is already indicating. It is as much a matter of law as it is a matter of courtesy.

      • Muppet Detector on 06/08/2025 - 13:11

        It is an infringement because there was no vacant spot available for you to move your vehicle into at the time you stopped your car in a moving lane of traffic beside another legally parked car in a legally designated parking space.

        The only problem with the yellow car was that it was there.

  • JIMB0 on 04/08/2025 - 13:44
    +11

    About time they started cracking down on this. It’s clowns like you that turn shopping center car parks into gridlock. “Oh look, someone’s walking to their car near the entrance, I'll just wait here for 5 minutes while they fumble their way to the car” Meanwhile there’s 20 empty spots further down, but no, gotta park at the door like royalty, screw everyone else.

    • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 15:41
      +5

      This is not a shopping center, or even close to any entry gates of any establishments. It's just busy to even get a parking spot. If you have never waited for a car to pull out of a busy parking area, even for a second and you have always found an empty spot appear right in front of you, and right after the car in front of you has passed it to not snatch it from you, 100% of time you were on a busy street, kudos to you for being that lucky.

      • Some Human on 04/08/2025 - 17:11
        +6

        I would just keep driving, find another spot and walk. My legs aren't painted on.

        • 87percent on 08/08/2025 - 18:12

          You would literally never get a spot. You would be forever driving around in circles

      • Protractor on 04/08/2025 - 17:28

        center
        centre !

      • JIMB0 on 04/08/2025 - 18:46
        +3

        I bet you do it in shopping centers as well. Usually there is a big car park only a short walk away, my legs aren't painted on and I do enjoy a walk.

        • ak47wong on 04/08/2025 - 23:45
          -3

          Never been in a full car park before? Live out in woop woop somewhere?

          • Some Human on 05/08/2025 - 11:10

            @ak47wong: Full carpark = even more full inside = I'll take my business elsewhere.

      • Ave Maria on 04/08/2025 - 19:33
        +1

        whenever I see an empty spot ahead of me, indicate turning left before I pass it and then take no more than 5 seconds to reverse into it (making sure the car behind me is aware). At no point I would ever stop for 2 (let alone 10+ seconds) and wait. That is asking for a ticket. If the parking spot is wide enough I just head into it and do not bother to stop & reverse. Yes paying a ticket for that seems extremely unfair but most of the traffic laws are designed to be unfair and are a main source of revenue for the councils. Just avoid parking on that street if you can.

      • Muppet Detector on 06/08/2025 - 13:13

        Some people do seem to get more lucky than others.

        On this occasion it seems that you were unlucky because you got caught doing something you weren't supposed to.

    • smartazz104 on 05/08/2025 - 08:06
      +4

      screw everyone else.

      Maybe everyone else should accept the fact that they aren't going to be able to park 5 steps away from the main entrance and park further away.

    • theguyrules on 05/08/2025 - 09:40
      +5

      We got stuck behind someone in a small car park at a local park, who decided to fully stop and turn off their car to let their family out of the car, get all their gear out, hop back in and drive off. Fully blocking the car park up with not even a wave or a sorry or thanks.
      People are bloody rude.

  • Austin 316 on 04/08/2025 - 14:12
    +11

    Another council money grabbing exercise. You can dispute, but I doubt anything will happen. If what you say is true, you had your left indicators on while you waited for the yellow car to go, then I'm with you OP. I've seen hundreds of people do the same thing.

    May be it you did this on a busy street or when the parking officer was looking at making more money for the council, I would say it's just bad luck.

    If this is actually not allowed to do, please let us know to save us getting fined in future. I will also stop doing this in future in that case.

    • jolygood on 05/08/2025 - 07:25

      I wonder what if emergency blinkers were used instead. I have seen plenty of these lately.

      • Protractor on 07/08/2025 - 10:41

        That is a signal to PIs to write a ticket. A pseudo red flag.

  • GordonD on 04/08/2025 - 15:21
    +3

    Didn't OzBargain recently do this?

    No, now I remember. OP stopped to wait for car to pull out. Car going around OP's car collided with car pulling out of parking space. Had to be pointed out to OP that you can't legally wait for someone to pull out.

  • Kongzi on 04/08/2025 - 15:25
    +3

    Copped it once in Brunswick. Wasn't even a busy street. It's at my mate's apartment parking area and I was trying to look for a parking.

    Disputed the fine and got away with it. The picture they sent even had me indicating.

  • mrkorrupt on 04/08/2025 - 15:50

    did you have a dashcam?

    • Some Human on 06/08/2025 - 05:28
      +1

      Footage probably mysteriously disappeared because they don't want us to know they held up traffic for far longer than 10 seconds.

  • askbargain on 04/08/2025 - 16:07
    +1

    Why use indicators when you can just use the uber eats hazard lights?

  • foxmulder on 04/08/2025 - 16:17
    +3

    Learn something new today, didn't know this is even illegal.

    • Embaloo on 05/08/2025 - 22:59

      Yeah same regarding double parking laws, a bit ashamed to admit… 🙈 It's been too long since the driving test/old age setting in/blind spot in the memory. Thanks for the PSA/useful reminder, OP.

  • Doyen on 04/08/2025 - 16:53
    +2

    15 mins of reading the legislation and i still can't work out what the definition of stop is.

    • wannagrababargain on 04/08/2025 - 16:55

      The legislation says it's the dictionary definition

      • Doyen on 04/08/2025 - 16:56

        That's what i can't find.

        • Doyen on 04/08/2025 - 16:57

          And yes the definition is valid for Part 12.

      • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 18:03
        +1

        I will let my parking instructor know that parallel parking is not real :)

        • Muppet Detector on 06/08/2025 - 13:19

          Parallel parking is real if there is an available space for you to manoeuvre your vehicle into.

          In your case, there was no available space so even attempting to parallel park (if that's what you want to go with), would have been futile. Hence you were double parked.

          Had that car to your left not been parked there, it would have been available for you to park your car in, meaning you would only have been single parked.

          Apparently, it is not illegal to single park there.

    • pegaxs on 04/08/2025 - 22:51
      +3

      stop, in Part 12 and for a driver, includes park, but does not include stop to reverse the driver’s vehicle into a parking bay or other parking space.

      park, in Part 12 and for a driver, includes stop and allow the driver’s vehicle to stay (whether or not the driver leaves the vehicle).

    • Muppet Detector on 06/08/2025 - 13:20

      You don't know what "stop" means?

      • Doyen on 06/08/2025 - 15:19

        The definition suggests stopping to not hit a pedestrian is an offence, stopping for traffic is an offence or stopping for a red light is an offence. There are contrary directions with the exclusions not referenced in the definition. The definition has all stopping between a white line and a parked car is an offence but for one single exclusion.

  • wannagrababargain on 04/08/2025 - 16:56

    I think technically you are ok as long as you don't "stop." Crawl along at 0.5 km/hr that's still not stopped!

  • hydration station on 04/08/2025 - 17:24

    If there were cars stopped in front of you as you claim, you could potentially say you were just stopped in traffic, and/or leaving enough space due to the pedestrian entering the car? Otherwise the legal definition is broad enough that they could issue this fine to everyone who is stopped in traffic next to parked cars, or stopping next to a car to begin a reverse parallel park.

    • bbinc on 05/08/2025 - 09:49

      Exactly!!!!!

    • Muppet Detector on 06/08/2025 - 13:24

      Pictures show two car spaces in front AND left indicator operating, don't they?

      What indication is the yellow vehicle displaying that indicates what their intentions actually are/were?

  • MS Paint on 04/08/2025 - 17:35
    +9

    Location Melbourne

    You broke Victorian Road Rule 189.

    I am intending to park where the yellow car is.

    The space needs to be vacant already.

    Just pay up and move on.

    • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 18:06
      +1

      yeah I will, but this a learning opportunity for me, as I did not learn this behaviour to wait for car parks initially when I got my license. This is a learned behaviour by observing others doing it, while I drove around in circles for 20+ mins looking for a spot, I saw others in front of me just waiting for their spot, blocking the traffic and getting their spots. Seemed unfair, but I saw it enough times to believe that this is legit ok to do

      • belongsinforums on 04/08/2025 - 19:18
        +4

        if your friend george jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?

        • askbargain on 04/08/2025 - 19:28

          school teacher?

        • pjbargain15 on 04/08/2025 - 20:06

          If I wanted to off it, and I see George and 100+ others successfully offing it from a bridge, yeah I would likely choose that bridge. Analogy is that I am looking for a parking spot and see this is how it is being obtained. If I don't drive a car and don't need any parking spot, I wouldn't probably stand on the street waiting for my turn to stand in the spot, even if I see other cars doing it, because I don't need it!

          • SlickMick on 05/08/2025 - 09:04

            @pjbargain15: It's a bad way to learn life lessons. Society degenerates to the most base level. Be the example. When someone tells you to do the wrong thing, stand up for yourself and what is right.

        • McFly on 05/08/2025 - 01:28

          DAD, NO!

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