COVID-19 Tracking App Mega Discussion Thread

Mega Thread for COVID-19 App discussions (Description Updated 27/4/20)

Please use this thread for any discussions about COVID-19 app discussions, rather than making a new thread. Also see below for other specific/related threads.

Related links:

Health.gov.au - General information
Coronavirus Australia - Apple App
Coronavirus Australia - Android App
COVIDsafe Contact Tracing app for Apple
COVIDSafe Contact Tracing app for Android

Threads:

COVID-19 Megathread

Wearing Masks -Wearing Masks 2 - Shops with Masks
Lockdown Activities - Lockdown Tips & Tricks - Lockdown Deals - Lockdown - Entertaining Kids - Shopping List -
Hand Sanitiser - Expired Hand Sanitisers - Cheap Sanitiser
Reporting Price Gougers - Punishing Price Gougers - Retailers & Empty Shelves - Retailers & Empty Shelves 2 - Infected Goods from China - Raising EFTPOS Limits - Amazon US Warehouse Only Re-stocking Medical & Staples - Reselling Lysol Wipes
AMA with a Doctor - Parcel Delays - Buying/Selling Home - - Gym - House Inspections - Private Health Insurance - Energy Providers
Overseas Travel - Singapore Airport Closed - QLD Border Closed - Flying to Closed Country - Flying to NZ - Flying to Tasmania
Hotels.com Refund - 3rd Party OTA Refunds - BYOJet, Aunt Betty Changes/Refunds - Groupon Refund - Travel Insurance - Travel Insurance 2
Schools/Universities - Keeping Kids at Home - Keeping Kids at Home 2
Your Job - Work from Home Companies - Pay Cut - Qantas Staff - Tips to Protecting Yourself (Financially)

Other:

OzBargain's Guide to Self Isolation (Deals & More)
Deals for Healthcare Workers


Mod: Original Description:

… for a 'good cause'?

The Federal Government believes restrictions on the community could be eased in the months ahead if there's more testing, greater surveillance of those infected by the coronavirus and much faster tracing of those they've had contact with.

It is developing a mobile phone app with the private sector to help monitor Australians' daily interactions. The app will use the user's GPS to do so.

Edit : This is how the app will work according to the Government Services Minister :

When you download it, you will be reuquired to enter:

  • your name
  • your age range
  • your postcode
  • your phone number

He said when people were within 1.5 metres for 15 minutes, the app via Bluetooth, would record the other person's name and phone number.

"It would stay securely encrypted on your phone," Mr Robert said.
"If I was confirmed positive, my data goes up to a central data store, only to state health officials, no-one else, and then they could rapidly call anyone I had been in close contact with."

Poll Options

  • 148
    Yes.Why?
  • 251
    No. Why?
  • 2
    Other

Comments

          • @[Deactivated]: It doesn't need the bluetooth MAC to talk to other bluetooth devices, therefore it shouldn't need location permission.

            • +1

              @ssquid: My understanding from reading the Android developer docs (see below) on Bluetooth is that location is required to exchange this information. Happy to be pointed to a resource disproving this.

              In order to use Bluetooth features in your application, you must declare two permissions. The first of these is BLUETOOTH. You need this permission to perform any Bluetooth communication, such as requesting a connection, accepting a connection, and transferring data.

              The other permission that you must declare is ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION. Your app needs this permission because a Bluetooth scan can be used to gather information about the location of the user. This information may come from the user's own devices, as well as Bluetooth beacons in use at locations such as shops and transit facilities.

              You must also declare the ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION permission, given that LE beacons are often associated with location. Without this permission, scans won't return any results.

              • @[Deactivated]: What the documentation doesn't mention is that is only relevant to BLE scanning (since the scan results contain a uuid), not regular bluetooth scans.

    • -1

      OZbers are afraid the Government might find that they aren't doing what their meant to be doing. 40% up take required to make it work affectively as another tool against this nasty little bug.

      Why should you have it on.
      1. To protect yourself and others.

      Why would you not download it.
      2. You are paranoid and think the Government is out to get you. Its all a conspiracy. First the Government builds up a persecption of it being worse than it really is to get you to put an App on your phone so they can then watch what your every movement. They make it a virus to scare people, so then no one uses cash, and are forced to use card, so they can track your dealings on card. They stop the borders to stop the drug trade coming in then people are forced to find alternative legal vices like Alcohol, so they can get maximum tax back from those sales. Come on why would you put this thing on your phone.

      I already know what the result will be.

      • It's funny how they have conveniently had their long standing wish of a cashless economy realised.

        It is pretty serious, we've had 80 people die so far in 4 months. The last two people to die were in their 90s.

      • Hmm sounds familiar somehow.

        Oh right, here's a 3 minute video for anyone who thinks this is a good thing.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4LtEciQUF8

    • +3
      • People who download the app will be asked to supply a name, which can be a pseudonym, their age range, a mobile number and post code.
      • The data remains encrypted on a user's phone for 21 days, after which it's deleted if they haven't been in contact with a confirmed case.
      • Commonwealth officials and law enforcement will be unable to access the central server.
      • Anyone who accesses the data illegally faces up to five years in jail
      • Mr Hunt will also seek an agreement with the states and territories to ensure the information is only used for contact tracing.
      • "Not even a court order can penetrate the law [that prevents the release of the data].

      I have to say, I'm quite happy with the way they're dealing with the privacy side assuming its correct (and I think the code is open for public to review?). I was quite sceptical of a location tracing app, and I honestly have a hard time trusting government as you never know when things slip from "privacy only" to "okay privacy unless court order" and then "privacy but police is fine" and then it ends up with "we shared your info with 5 other countries due to 5 eyes.

      If accurate though, I probably wouldn't mind the download personally, for maybe a 6 month period.

      • Yes, I also like his strong statement that "Not even a court order can penetrate the law [that prevents the release of the data]."

        And the fact that it only uses bluetooth.

        • Only uses bluetooth, but still needs location permission. Don't worry about that though, it's just a technical issue.

      • "Anyone who accesses the data illegally faces up to five years in jail"

        False, as the data contract is with Amazon Cloud Services who are subject to US laws.

        • But isn't the data kept on the users phone? Not on the cloud?

          • @treebytheriver: Nope. Only minister Stuart Robert said that. :) When you first log on and supply personal details, your data goes to an Amazon hosted server. They also controversially hold the private keys.

            When you hear the statements about local data, that is the connection data.

          • +1

            @treebytheriver: They lied about it (I remember the same statement from the government officials that it will not leave your phone). Here is what you see when you actually install the app and open it:

            "Information you submit when you register, and information about your use of COVIDsafe will be collected and stored on a highly secure server."

            • +1

              @verio: The government would never lie to me

              • +1

                @brendanm: They don't have to lie

                Anyone who accesses the data illegally faces…

                They just have to change the law, which is their actual job, and they do regularly.

                • @afoveht: Exactly, not like that's every happened before…

    • +6

      I will not be using this app. Two reasons.

      Reason number one is purely technical. As an iOS developer, I know that you can't make an app that will be constantly broadcasting bluetooth data in background. So either it will actually require you to leave the app running and keep the phone unlocked like it was in Singapore:
      https://tracetogether.zendesk.com/hc/en-sg/articles/36004484…

      Or it will just not work. I have a feeling that the government decided to go the second way instead of telling the public that they need to have the app open all the time. The story about "weaker bluetooth signal if multiple apps are used or low power mode is enabled" is a bunch of crap. If there is a low power mode enabled on iPhone, apps don't get any background run time. Period.

      What they could do instead is to use the upcoming contact tracing framework from Apple and Google that is designed specifically for government apps and solves that problem. But they decided not to wait for it. Why? I bet it has something to do with the second reason.

      Reason number two - privacy concerns. The government collects your phone number at the point of registration. Yes, you can provide a fake name but your phone number is enough to identify you. There is no need for that requirement, they could ask for all details only if you have contacted someone with the virus. Instead, they collect this information from every person. The contact tracing framework that I have previously mentioned is completely anonymous unless you have actually met someone with the virus.

      They could design an app that would be both efficient and privacy friendly. Instead, it looks like they used the app from Singapore as an example where it has spectacularly failed.

    • -3

      I'll be installing it, if only to help us get back to normality a little sooner.

      And I'm not a paranoid delusionist.

      • I am actually a bit concerned about how they made this message clear - "If you want to get restrictions eased, install the app"

        • They didn't.

          But if it helps with contact tracing then we reduce the chance of small outbreaks becoming larger waves of infection.

          And if that results in maintaining spare capacity in ICU beds then restrictions can be eased.

          Curious though, what did you think the point of the apps was?

    • +2

      It's not going to do anything to be honest. They are better off actually telling the public daily where the areas that the infected people are going.

      Why aren't we getting that data in the newspapers? Weird don't you think?

      • Why not both?

        I'd also like to see live maps of the latest confirmed infections, but also understand that this information could invoke complacency in areas of little or no infection.

      • +1

        They are better off actually telling the public daily where the areas that the infected people are going.

        So… hospitals? Hmm. Shocking news, sick people are going to hospitals!

    • +2

      No thanks, I value my privacy

    • +1

      I’m just worried that they will realise how boring I am

    • -1

      wrong place. to many dole bludgers and people on fake workers comp on this site to be going around asking about a tracking app.

      • +2

        Is the tracking app for people who can't tell "to" from "too"?

        • -1

          "IT'S" the tracking app for people who can't tell to from too (minus the random ? it wasn't a question)

          Too bad it's not a basic english, irony and punctuation app. You would be all over it.

    • +1

      I downloaded but wont accept my mobile number.. orwell.

      • It won't accept any data until 6pm.

      • Freudian slip?

    • +1

      In terms of privacy, as everyone stated, it is a general concern and I hope the government is able to be transparent with how they treat the data.

      But, I do want to say that although I don't know much about tech security and applications, I think people are forgetting the fact that just by them using the internet, and accepting terms & conditions (that none of us read) of all sorts of apps/websites, you're already giving away your data for free to all these big companies such as Google, Facebook, etc. So if you're scared of your privacy, this app shouldn't be the only thing that's worrying you.

      • +1

        Google and Facebook can't send you to jail or fine you for eating a pizza.

    • +3

      They should offer $10 Coles/wish gift card then it will get ozbargained

    • +2

      No because I don't need worry about giving the greedy government 1600 every time I leave my house

  • Lol, this is new:

    "This will be logged every two hours in the National COVIDSafe data store."

    versus Minister Stuart Robert:

    "The app simply connects with another app. If those two phones are within 1.5 metres for 15 minutes it simply swaps phone numbers and names. That information is held encrypted and securely on the individual’s mobile phone.”

  • This is going to be a fail from the looks of it. People want to keep their privacy even though in this tech driven woruld we have probably given it away along time ago.

    • +2

      No to this app! I'm happy to give the government my full name, date of birth, location of birth, gender, address, previous addresses, mobile number, land line number, drivers licence, medical history, family's names, schooling information, passport information, work history, taxes, driving records and criminal records.
      The last thing I want them to know is my bluetooth ID.

  • +1

    Wow, just watched this video. At 2:25 it says users will only be contacted if:

    • They spent at least 15 minutes near an infected person AND
    • They were closer than 1.5m to an infected person

    This virus is pretty contagious, people can probably catch it off surfaces (i.e. fomites), if someone in a bus is infected and sneezes the droplets could travel further than 1.5 meters. I see some flaws with this app:

    • Bus example: You're on a bus 2.7m from an infected person. They sneeze and someone <1.5m to them ends up getting infected and symptoms show after the incubation period. Two scenarios can play out here: the sneeze droplets from the original person travel throughout the bus and you get sick anyway, but you aren't notified because you weren't <1.5m from the infected person. Or, the newly infected person sneezes and possibly spreads whatever is in their nose 1.5 to you, and so you are notified you were on a bus with an infected person eventually.

    • Supermarket: There's an infected person who's walking around touching things after they touched their face. You don't move closer than 1.5m to the person for at least 15 minutes. But you touch something they touch then touch your face. You become infected two weeks later and there's no way to figure out who may have infected you because your phone didn't connect with the infected person.

    • Home example: Your family member becomes infected but your phones are in separate rooms and they don't ever come closer than 1.5m for >15 minutes. You get infected from them but the app misses it.

    • (profanity) example: You are out in a line waiting for something. Some (profanity) walks past you and sneezes forcefully at you without covering their mouth, because they are a (profanity). Turns out they're infected but they were asymptomatic at the time. You become infected from that sneeze but the app doesn't capture that because it doesn't fulfil both these idiotic criteria.

    Seems flawed. But hey, maybe it's still worth downloading on the off-chance chance it will work.

  • +1

    Ironic the number of people who are posting on Facebook about not wanting to use the app because the value their privacy..

    • Its not because they just value privacy, its because we have seen what other countries do to their citizens when they monitor them and harvest/sell their data. Not comparing apples for apples here.

      • Which countries have done that?

        • Which companies have used apps to monitor their citizens? Like China does now? Or Germany and France?

  • +3

    Type into google 'Where have I been today, then choose timeline, and get a map of your travels today , As a retail employee I welcome the fact that I could possibly get a warning that I have been in contact with someone who tests positive, Would not like to pass this on to loved ones.

    • +1

      Exactly!

      You'd hopefully have someone from state health get in touch with anyway, but that would rely on that patient being able to recall all of their travels from the previous fortnight, and then someone doing an effective job of manual contact tracing without screwing up.

      This app just helps to improve speed and accuracy of the tracing process.

  • +2

    Don't get me wrong, I oppose when governments digitise data for the sake of it without sufficient controls. Case in point, I have opted myself and my family out of the 'My Health Record' that stores almost everything in a database that anyone with a medical licence who is registered with Medicare can access, on a device that potentially has no antivirus and other controls on it…

    But this app - COVIDsafe - is the best thing we have of understanding this thing and controlling it so that it doesn’t control us (like it has for the last 5+ weeks). The app has been independently assessed - a security firm actually reached out to the Federal Govt to do this testing at no cost (that’s at least $50k income waived to do an assessment like this).

    Have a read up on what the app does if you like:
    https://www.abc.net.au/.../cyber-agency-supports.../12168136

    • +1

      This is the correct link. Yours doesn't seem to be working.

      • +1

        "Ms Falk said the data would be stored only on a person's handset, unless they tested positive".

        Actually the app is contacting the server every 2 hours.

        It's not very secure, hence the emergency legislation "It will be a criminal offence to use any app data in any other way, punishable by a five-year prison sentence or a $63,000 fine." You wouldn't need that if it was as secure as they say.

        • You wouldn't need that if it was as secure as they say.

          There's a good reason that theft is still illegal, no matter how secure the bank vault is…

          Any data is subject to theft by a system administrator, so some protection is prudent even if the security is flawless.

  • The emergency rush job, I mean determination, governing usage of the data is available here:

    https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L00480

    Particularly interesting that it was only lodged Saturday 25th April. A lot of the language is error plagued draft standard.

    Take this, foul downvoters! (re non-participation)

    "
    2) A person must not:
    (a) refuse to enter into, or continue, a contract or arrangement with another person (including a contract of employment); or
    (b) take adverse action (within the meaning of the Fair Work Act 2009) against another person; or
    (c) refuse to allow another person to enter premises; or
    (d) refuse to allow another person to participate in an activity; or
    (e) refuse to receive goods or services from another person; or
    (f) refuse to provide goods or services to another person;
    on the ground that, or on grounds that include the ground that, the other person:
    (g) has not downloaded COVIDSafe to a mobile telecommunications device; or
    (h) does not have COVIDSafe in operation on a mobile telecommunications device; or
    (i) has not consented to uploading COVID app data from a mobile telecommunications device to the National COVIDSafe Data Store.
    "

  • -1
    Merged from COVIDSafe App: Getting Back to Normal

    Moved to Forum: Original Link

    Best thing many of us can do to get back to normal which is going to mean less job losses, trade back to normal which means more Ozbargain deals.

    • +98

      How is this a deal…?

      • +125

        Could look at it in the sense that by you downloading it and turning on Bluetooth, you could potentially save someone’s life. That’s a pretty good deal to me.

        • +5

          You stray too far from the intended purpose of Ozbargain, perhaps this should be posted in Ozhealth

          • -1

            @[Deactivated]: Good thing it already exists. Or perhaps the Health and Beauty category if you're not a fan of the self isolation page?

            • +3

              @Clear: Not a deal.

              • -1

                @Bryanalves: We better tell Hamza that the handpicked deals in his thread by the mods aren't a deal then.

                • -4

                  @Clear: I reported it. Its weird how mods are selective in what 'no deals' are deleted and what is left on here to be negged.

                  Unless this is deleted then OP wins as he/she is obviously promoting the app and nothing more.

                  This is an advertisment.

                  • +1

                    @Bryanalves: They would be discussing the validity of this deal, otherwise the reports would be all gone.

              • +10

                @Bryanalves: Not disputing the value of this approach, but may be in the different discussion, not a deal, or bargain

              • @Bryanalves: Second that

                • +4

                  @[Deactivated]: The government has the 'no school no centerlink' programme which forces parents to send their school age children to school.

                  Since this app is so important should the government be implementing a 'no app no jobkeeper/centerlink' initiative?

                  • +4

                    @Bryanalves: No app no outdoors shopping
                    No app no outdoor gathering >2 ppl

                    We're about to unwind the good position we're in and have to go through it all again.. If only states waited another few weeks before relaxing controls

          • +2
        • +1

          But so would donating $10 to UNICEF… is that ALSO a deal The Almighty Dollar?

      • +33

        It's FREEEEE.

        • Tell that to your mobile phone's battery .. with it's need to power the Bluetooth checks every minute of the day!

      • -7

        It's a free cure

        • +4

          I'm going to drink some bleach, if I do I won't die from coronavirus.

          • @Caped Baldy: that is only in the United States of America .. not the down under .. stay safe bro .. trump cant and wont save you ..

      • +9

        It could save your life

        • +1

          And countless others

      • +11

        Could save the economy.

        • +10

          Do you understand how the app even works?

          • +21

            @[Deactivated]: Do you? The prmoised "open source" never happened.

            • +2

              @brendanm: Give them some time geez

            • +18

              @brendanm: Yep, government changed their mind and didn't release source (probably a commercial issue).

              The good news is the developer didn't obfuscate the code at all. It's been decompiled to high quality source and analysed. Short version: it only collects bluetooth IDs, stores data locally, only uploads when you give permission (no sneaky uploads). No unusual bits of code, everything's pretty simple.

              https://twitter.com/matthewrdev/status/1254336105203200000?s…

              Does this mean I trust the government? Nope. But it's fair to say there are no obvious red flags in the code.

            • -1

              @brendanm: I sure f*king do.

          • +1

            @[Deactivated]: I can see two issues.

            First of all, as I understand it, the app connects to any device also running the app within Bluetooth range and exchanges information. You can connect to Bluetooth through walls and other physical barriers. To me, that means that the app could generate a lot of false positives, where the app connects to someone that you did not have any actual contact with. I hope that it doesn't result in people being isolated if they're not infected.

            Secondly, if you get the virus from social contact (which is, as I understand it, the whole point of the app), and the person you get it from doesn't have the app, how will the app identify who you got the virus from?

            • +1

              @pjetson: The 'whole point' of the app is for contact tracing. Contact tracing is the ability to find out which people a positive-testing subject has had contact with during the period in which they were infectious with the virus. If someone has tested positive, and they had the app, then a notification will be sent to all the people who had the app, and were a 'contact' (i.e. had a bluetooth connection for 15+ mins). The idea is not to find out who you got the virus from, it is to notify you if you were in contact with someone who tested positive, therefore indicating that you should be tested.

              • @dramiante:

                notify you if you were in contact with someone who tested positive

                Only if that someone has the app. Otherwise, the scheme doesn't work.

                According to the newspapers, many people who are supposed to be isolating because they have a fever or have tested positive are not actually isolating - they are continuing to go out and go shopping or whatever. If I recall correctly, police checks on compliance in Victoria shows about 5% of people they check on are not home.

                These people are not going to install an app that proves that they are not home. So, if I come into contact with these people, perhaps in the supermarket or somewhere like that, the app won't know. It's kind of like wearing a face mask - it's only really useful for the people who already have the virus (to reduce the chances of them spreading it), not for people who don't have it.

                Having said that, I have installed the app.

            • @pjetson: There is no issues with those issues.

              For your first point: It is not an automatic process in asking about isolation. What happens is, when someone has identified as infected, then they will use the app to find people IDs who he/she had in close contact for more than 15mins. After that, I think they contact those people and inform that they were in close contact and get further information to identify the incident. If they see that they living next to each other in a flat (with a physical barrier), then obviously it is possible to rule out those people. But, then again, if they living in a same apartment, there is a high chance that they share common facilities/area and may infected.
              I mean obviously, app could be a sophisticated one to figure out those things with the use of GPS, etc, but then more people will complain about the privacy and no one will use it. We need to understand the idea here.

              For the second: That is the whole purpose of asking everyone (at least 60%) to download and keep it active in the phone (with bluetooth on). Otherwise, there is no point at all.

        • +2

          I agree. I am happy to be downvoted. So much trust in the government Just to get a new viewpoint look at China and their social point system. Read 1984, watch the movie.

          This won't be popular but maybe some people will look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_wURTQRERY. His channel is worth a look if you can keep an open mind.
          I expect most people to not agree, that's ok, but remember to work on becoming open-minded.

        • +1

          The analytics platform that OzBargain uses is significantly more invasive to your privacy than this app - several lifetimes of using the app wouldn't result in as much information as 10 minutes on OzBargain does. That's without considering all the other scripts that are included in the OzBargain website, which are throwing significant amounts of data to other parties.

      • +3

        I get OzBargain is for getting things cheaper than normal price, but sometimes something free is worth it's own post that people will see (and not go into forums where most people aren't looking). Maybe Scomo could have charged $100 for the first download, paid it himself and then discounted it for free for everyone else in Australia. Then it would qualify to be an OzBargain deal.

      • +6

        It’s not. Bring on the depression.

      • -4

        Here's the deal …

        option A - use the app and leave your house and save lives

        option B - dont use the app and stay at home and save lives

        option C - dont use the app and leave your house and kill someone

        this looks like a good deal to me.

        • +19

          Lol at those options. I can't ever imagine being this brainwashed.

          • @brendanm: You’re the reason life can’t go back to normal.

            • +1

              @[Deactivated]: I told brendo to lay off the bat soup, but he just wouldn't listen!!

              • +1

                @Skinnerr: It's too delicious. I have it with a side of pangolin normally.

            • @[Deactivated]: The sole reason, no other!

            • +3

              @[Deactivated]: I'm the reason 80 people have died over nearly 5 months, most of them very old, or with other issues? I doubt that.

        • +10

          How many people have I killed going to and from work? Jesus, I'm a mass murderer.

          • -3

            @FabMan: If you infected others, yes,you are a killer maybe a mass killers

            • +1

              @ti6331: I don't infect anyone, the virus does, though my behavior could increase the chance that the virus infects someone else.

              If you look at the 3 options presented, going out without the app results in death for other people, which means everyone going out to work, including doctors, are killing people, which is just stupid. I was trying to highlight the ridiculousness of their comment,

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